These games fail because of the nature of the game. People worry and concentrate on what they will become at endgame that they don't focus on how to get there and you have games (like DF) with lots of noobs and lots of vets and hardly anyone in the middle. You take 1000 new players what percentage of them get to endgame? I would say no more than 10%. Why? Because once the newness wears off, the newbie protection or whatever else they become fair game for the vets who feed off of them. The newbies will begin to drop off and leave the game and only a small percentage who are lucky enough to either get in a good guild, or not get killed alot, or are sadistic and enjoy getting smacked around will survive. The rest will get tired and leave. Then the vets are all left wondering where everyone is, and make one of two statements: 1. We need to not kill of the noobs or 2. They knew what they were getting into, they bought a ticket..I say Let them crash. Screw them.
Then those that stated #1 will leave the game and your left with only those vets who think #2. Your server population gets less and less and less until finally the game shuts down.
Games need to focus on the middle ground people, and try to keep them going. Thats what DAoC tried to do when it made the battle ground realms for certain levels, but even they couldn't help them.
Has anybody actually named a game with FFA PvP that failed because it had FFA PvP as opposed to some other element that was broken in the game?
Nope and not that suprising.
That depends. I'd have mentioned Shadow Bane, or some such, but then it would have been claimed that it wasn't FFA that sank it. So why bother? This argument is never going to be settled here. Thats why market dynamics are going to settle it.
Anyone who ever really played Shadowbane knows three things sank it and FFA PVP wasn't one of them.
True, but there were a number of other things going for shadowbane.
1. It was NOT designed around FFA PVP, it was designed around Guild Warfare PVP. Surprisingly most people actually played it that way.
2. Unlike many other MMOs with Open PVP, This game had a way for players to police themselves effectively.
The weak point of Shadowbane was the ability to have multiple toons per server, allowing players to have "Good guy" toons that "played by the rules" and Ganking toons that were supporeted by the other.
Has anybody actually named a game with FFA PvP that failed because it had FFA PvP as opposed to some other element that was broken in the game?
Nope and not that suprising.
That depends. I'd have mentioned Shadow Bane, or some such, but then it would have been claimed that it wasn't FFA that sank it. So why bother? This argument is never going to be settled here. Thats why market dynamics are going to settle it.
Anyone who ever really played Shadowbane knows three things sank it and FFA PVP wasn't one of them.
Just proving what I said... Pointless. The market will sort this out.
It's kind of funny... the wolves need sheep to prey on, but the FFA games discourage sheep from sticking around.
What happens in a game full of wolves?
People are too afraid to fight because they may lose.
Either that or they have pissing matches over territory.
Yep, thats kinda been my experience in FFA pvp concept games. It reaches a stage there's no sheep left, and the wolves need food.. and have to prey on other wolves. Issue being? Well, large percentage of the subscription fees or revenue the gaming company requires, derives from sheep. Just my opinion though, not trying to start an argument.
It's kind of funny... the wolves need sheep to prey on, but the FFA games discourage sheep from sticking around.
What happens in a game full of wolves?
People are too afraid to fight because they may lose.
Either that or they have pissing matches over territory.
Yep, thats kinda been my experience in FFA pvp concept games. It reaches a stage there's no sheep left, and the wolves need food.. and have to prey on other wolves. Issue being? Well, large percentage of the subscription fees or revenue the gaming company requires, derives from sheep. Just my opinion though, not trying to start an argument.
Well technicially you could call me one of those "lambs" as I am not a hard core pvper nor an "elite" player - but I LOVE ffa pvp.
I loved shadowbane.
Until they make another game like SB I doubt I'll be subscribing to any mmo.
Most mmo's right now are boring clones.
Kill people respawn, rinse and repeat - it's the same old tired pve formula with a different skin.
Boring. Boring. Boring.
Shadowbane had actual castle sieges - where your "team" could take over a world!
The idea of killing just for kills isn't really appealing to LOTS people, even for those who want to do some PvP. I played a lot of DotA and now Heroes of Newerth. That is essentially a PvP game (not quite what you guys are saying) but the idea is the same. You have your character and with a team you do battle against another side. The goal is winning and the reward is prestige.
Games like RYL2 where your race does battle against another race in largescale combat to win control over a high level leveling area, or Ragnarok where WoE causes guilds to do battle so that they can control castles have GOALS to their PvP, real rewards.
When information about JGE first started to come out we all got excited, it seemed as though PvP would have a real reward. You could control sectors of space to do mining in by making and placing space stations. While that dream now seems less than realized, the community was excited because there owuld be PvP that meant something. It would force people to form groups and fight for something they needed. It is what we all really want.
I also believe there is a serious flaw with FFA PvP: GANKERS
We want to PvP, and we don't want to be limited to only small meaningless sections. Unfortunately when you allow people to go into starting areas or cities and just start killing everyone there becomes an issue. Players aren't having fun. It always upsets us when the game handles it for us. It is like the developers are just holding our hands until we can defend ourselves, so then what is the solution?
Well we want people to protect eachother. Unfortunately there is again no reward or goal to helping a noobie. Sure they might join your guild, but what use do you have for someone who can't really do much of anything? There really has never been a good solution to this problem.
One i've proposed before is that we attempt to implement a bounty system. Player killers rack up bounties, given by the game. The law is then enforced by the players rather than the game. The reward is in place, monetary.
Anyways, those are just some thoughts about the issues
tl'dr version: PvP needs more of a reward than "you've killed x players you get y"
In Eve, are there people who never PvP? People who remain in high security space all the time?
Sure, plenty. That is to say, that's what they try to do. But sometimes PVP comes to them anyway.
Also it depends on what you mean by "PvP". EVE PvP is not limited to direct combat. Some of the most vicious PvPers in the game never undock - the market traders. And if you dont think that counts as PvP, that means you dont understand the stakes these guys play for or the tactics they'll use.
And then of course there are people like GHSC, who bring down corps and even alliances, often without firing a shot.
Um
PVP in playing markets isnt something that only happens in EVE.
My true experience with in-game markets was during my 5.5 yrs of EQ1(Feb 01 to mid 06). Sometimes I would set up in trader mode, and watch what was being bought up. I remember watching certain items being snatched up, only to be resold by that same person at a much higher price.
Basically they were setting the market price. If someone wanted that resource, that traders were hoarding, they would either have to pay top dollar....or hope to catch the item from a cheaper vendor before they are bought out.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
In Eve, are there people who never PvP? People who remain in high security space all the time?
Sure, plenty. That is to say, that's what they try to do. But sometimes PVP comes to them anyway.
Also it depends on what you mean by "PvP". EVE PvP is not limited to direct combat. Some of the most vicious PvPers in the game never undock - the market traders. And if you dont think that counts as PvP, that means you dont understand the stakes these guys play for or the tactics they'll use.
And then of course there are people like GHSC, who bring down corps and even alliances, often without firing a shot.
Um
PVP in playing markets isnt something that only happens in EVE.
My true experience with in-game markets was during my 5.5 yrs of EQ1(Feb 01 to mid 06). Sometimes I would set up in trader mode, and watch what was being bought up. I remember watching certain items being snatched up, only to be resold by that same person at a much higher price.
Basically they were setting the market price. If someone wanted that resource, that traders were hoarding, they would either have to pay top dollar....or hope to catch the item from a cheaper vendor before they are bought out.
Heh. EVE marketeering can get a little more involved than that.
"The ability to attack any player, any where, at any time, regardless of guild or faction affiliation. This means you can kill a person in your own faction, guild, party, whatever."
It limits progression.
It limits group based co-operation.
All it encourages is 'grief play' via actions without consequences.
Most people live in a world where actions have consequences, and due to social conditioning expect the same to happen in a makebelieve fantasy gameworld aswell.
When a game mechanic works against the majority of its playerbase haveing fun and being entertained, it's not going to last.
"The ability to attack any player, any where, at any time, regardless of guild or faction affiliation. This means you can kill a person in your own faction, guild, party, whatever."
It limits progression.
It limits group based co-operation.
All it encourages is 'grief play' via actions without consequences.
Most people live in a world where actions have consequences, and due to social conditioning expect the same to happen in a makebelieve fantasy gameworld aswell.
When a game mechanic works against the majority of its playerbase haveing fun and being entertained, it's not going to last.
Nice post with some points I also believe wholeheartedly. I've stated many times over sentiments similar to this the DF forums for example are full of ffa pvp enthusiasts who outside of the fact that thrive off of ganking other players generally are too short sighted to treat them any differently post launch which just further pushes people away from wanting to play these types of games (DF in particular). In essence the players are often the games worst enemies.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
QQ and go back to your themepark and leave indeed FFA pvp to those who like such games.
Why you care btw or even bother with topic if your not planning play such a game is beyond me?
Hundreds carebear mmo's, few hardcore pvp mmo's so dont see your problem OP?
Still feel threatend hahaha?.....even tho you dont play such games hehe.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
For online games to prosper, you have to create community.
When it's dog eat dog, no one wins.
Games like EvE survive because you need teamwork and community (corps and alliances) to survive.
Community is a hard thing to program into the source code at release.
It's something dynamic that evolves over time.
Most of these new FFA PvP games fail because they never build community.
EVE online was released 2003 before WoW and is spacegame how many ffa pvp full loot spacegame mmo's you have?
So EVE have no competion if you look at space genre.
Games like Darkfall have hardtime becouse many many ex WoW or new mmo gamers from last few years try these games and then realise its way way harder then there beloved ezmode themepark they grow up with so Darkfall mortal online will have hardtime to survive thats reason.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
QQ and go back to your themepark and leave indeed FFA pvp to those who like such games.
Why you care btw or even bother with topic if your not planning play such a game is beyond me?
Hundreds carebear mmo's, few hardcore pvp mmo's so dont see your problem OP?
Still feel threatend hahaha?.....even tho you dont play such games hehe.
I really hope DF can survive with the 10k-15k subs they have.
From my experience ffapvpers tend to get bored if they have no sheep to kill.
Keep telling non-aggressives to go play a themepark and one day your going to look around in DF and see around a hundred people on the server, scattered PVEing...
FFA fails because the good players get together due to the fact the scrubs refuse to learn. They cry imbalance or hacks as soon as they die once and ragequit. You get elite pvp teams that slowly kill off the zergy, scruby, and skilless newbs who then unsub and there you go.
These are the same kind of people who in a non-ffa pvp game(WAR for example), log out after they die once and cry that someone is using an add-on or hack or has better gear or more levels or a broken class. Bad players don't mesh well with good ones.
For online games to prosper, you have to create community.
When it's dog eat dog, no one wins.
Games like EvE survive because you need teamwork and community (corps and alliances) to survive.
Community is a hard thing to program into the source code at release.
It's something dynamic that evolves over time.
Most of these new FFA PvP games fail because they never build community.
EVE online was released 2003 before WoW and is spacegame how many ffa pvp full loot spacegame mmo's you have?
So EVE have no competion if you look at space genre.
Games like Darkfall have hardtime becouse many many ex WoW or new mmo gamers from last few years try these games and then realise its way way harder then there beloved ezmode themepark they grow up with so Darkfall mortal online will have hardtime to survive thats reason.
No! DF has a hardtime because its lacking. It is extremely shallow when it comes to supporting players that enjoy other rulesets other than Ganking & griefing friendly gameplay.
Eve transcends its setting because its a quality sandbox mmo, that offers multiple ways to play over multiple rulesets. players can pick and choose the level of risk. keep saying Eve is good because there are no other spacegames lol. Eves competition is OTHER SANDBOX GAMES. Eve is owning DF, FE, MO and any other rinky dink sandbox out today it has nothing to do with setting. it has to do with polish and execution.
No! DF has a hardtime because its lacking. It is extremely shallow when it comes to supporting players that enjoy other rulesets other than Ganking & griefing friendly gameplay.
Eve transcends its setting because it sa quality sadnbox mmo. that offers multiple ways to plays over multiple rulesets. players can pick and choose the level of risk. keep saying Eve is good because there are no other spacegames lol. Eves competition is OTHER SANDBOX GAMES. Eve is owning DF, FE, MO, Ryzom and any other rinky dink sandbox out today it has nothing to do with setting.
I'd agree.
If anything Eve's setting should hurt the game, since fantasy is far more popular. However as Rockgod99 says, you just can't compete with quality and polish.
Just a thought that crossed my mind, for so-called hardcore gamers who like this aspect in MMO games. More often than not this concept results in the pioneer or starting batch of players on the respective gaming servers getting a head start. The strong usually stick together (ie. those who reach highest levels first, attain good gear etc). ganking is rampant, these peeps form guilds or their own groups, eventually only the strong characters are left, cos everyone else gets owned, and players generally do not like to get consistently owned. The new players find no way to cover the gap, and the few that manage to reach competitive levels or gear standards, majority end up JOINING the initial pioneer guilds/groups. Basically, in such games you get servers dominated and controlled by player guilds/groups.. new players have a crazy hard time..
Are there masochistic players who enjoy such types of games? Probably, but the number will never be sufficient to support a healthy community or provide enough revenue for a gaming company to give strong support, in today's context at least.
Sorry but you are full of shit. Let me guess you got killed in a mmorpg and now you need to cry about it on the forums. Well you're name shows that already so I don't need an asnwer.
Carebear much?. I think so.
mmorpg's flop faster then mcdonalds cheese burgers these days.
QQ and go back to your themepark and leave indeed FFA pvp to those who like such games.
Why you care btw or even bother with topic if your not planning play such a game is beyond me?
Hundreds carebear mmo's, few hardcore pvp mmo's so dont see your problem OP?
Still feel threatend hahaha?.....even tho you dont play such games hehe.
From my experience ffapvpers tend to get bored if they have no sheep to kill.
But they get really excited if you don't show up in a Haluer or Shuttle.
So excited they dissapear from your overview in EVE ...........
No different in WoW .. L80 DK yomping away on the L30's in Stranglethorn, Ran away and hid from 2 L70's who came to look for him.
FFAPVP to some means "I want to ruin the playing experience of everyone around me"
Like all small minded spineless retards, they excell at abusing the playing experience of those that "stand no chance against them in combat", but they are very quick at running away and crying for mummy to help them if anything resembling a close fight even so much as looks at them.
Eventually they'll reach puberty and develop a brain, and some real balls.
The problem is that an MMO is about character development the problem is that free for all pvp does not work in a devleopmental role. MMOs are not like counterstrike or deathmatch doom they require the ability for people to expand their character.
FFA pvp games reduce peoples ability to progress their characters to be chain ganked or gang ganked by either better players OR groups of better players OR just people who play as a team.
The reward from FFA pvp is to kill other players and as such there is a winner and looser, and if the winner is rewarded while the looser is penalised if that happens constantly and the looser will eventually leave the game.
thus populating the game with winners who have been used to winning to find themselves loosing will eventually have them quit as well.
In the end the population is made up of incredibly skilled players who have the maturity to be able to win and loose. however a new player joining an already established pvp environment will not have aquired the maturity to accept death, but on the other hand they will not have aquired the skills to compete against the competition.
This is the core problem with free for all pvp. the most popular pvp games such as DAOC and WAR and EVE even WOW. they provide areas of control to allow people to level up to aquire the skills to suvive in pvp and so if they continue to loose they can fall back on PVE and increase their abilities till they can compete with the tough people.
Just a thought that crossed my mind, for so-called hardcore gamers who like this aspect in MMO games. More often than not this concept results in the pioneer or starting batch of players on the respective gaming servers getting a head start. The strong usually stick together (ie. those who reach highest levels first, attain good gear etc). ganking is rampant, these peeps form guilds or their own groups, eventually only the strong characters are left, cos everyone else gets owned, and players generally do not like to get consistently owned. The new players find no way to cover the gap, and the few that manage to reach competitive levels or gear standards, majority end up JOINING the initial pioneer guilds/groups. Basically, in such games you get servers dominated and controlled by player guilds/groups.. new players have a crazy hard time..
Are there masochistic players who enjoy such types of games? Probably, but the number will never be sufficient to support a healthy community or provide enough revenue for a gaming company to give strong support, in today's context at least.
Sorry but you are full of shit. Let me guess you got killed in a mmorpg and now you need to cry about it on the forums. Well you're name shows that already so I don't need an asnwer.
Carebear much?. I think so.
Ahh... the old carebear argument.
Using labels with negative connotations rather than addressing the concerns with factual evidence to refute the claims made.
I love how some pro-PvPers can't seem to ever come up with any real arguments in support of why their choice in gameplay is supposidly so much more superior to the alternative, and simply resort to namecalling.
They talk of "freedom" and "choice" but what many fail to realize is that what you are really talking about is removing choice and freedom from others.
If you are free to attack anyone at any time, to make that choice, you end up making choices for other people - forcing them to PvP with you and they'll most likely fail to defend themselves.
There is a reason a smart hunter will take on a target of opportunity instead of looking for an even match.
Being a hunter isn't about being on equal terms, a competition between opposing forces, it's about domination.
It's all about hunter and prey. Victim and victimizer.
There is a reason 99.9% of people would not hunt a bear with a knife, because it's much easier to use a gun.
Victim and prey.
But you do have the folks who want competition, to be actually proven to be better not just dominate others.
Those are the real PvP'ers.
Don't believe me?
Why do you think battlegrounds and arena's and such are so much more popular? Because it's about competition - it's about sport, rather then simply domination.
That's why I don't consider hunting and fishing actual sports...
You aren't competing with a foe capable of playing on the same level as you.
FFA PvP?
To me, it's just an exercise of those at the top of food chain exercising their dominance over those on the lower end. Just like hunting/fishing.
Can you be a skilled hunter or fisherman for sure, this is not about skill.
But you can't be a skilled prey.
Couple this with the fact that MMOs generally = some form of progression, and again you are left with higher foodchain exerting dominance over lesser folk.
Just wanted to add a little game of Fallout 2238, which is a FFA PvP with full gear drop (but you can have a safehouse, which actually can get compromised if you are not careful). But that's just it's feel.
For me, FFA PvP can be fun for some, but for it to be fun it would require a system that give both sides a chance whatever the level, skill, gear diffrence there is. This is never happening. I don't know even a single MMORPG that fullfils that point. FFA PvP games are mostly, IMHO, populated by pray looking hunters on the higher levels and hunter-wannabes on the lower levels. The anout of bad feel when you get beaten by a guy which you have literally no chance to beat is bad enough for me not to play a game. Just my opinion.
Comments
Thats would be my first question about this thread.
Otherwise I can start a "why all Racical PvP MMOs fail" and a "why all PvE MMOs fail" thread now.
Just because WoW has racial PvP doesnt mean thats a good idea.
These games fail because of the nature of the game. People worry and concentrate on what they will become at endgame that they don't focus on how to get there and you have games (like DF) with lots of noobs and lots of vets and hardly anyone in the middle. You take 1000 new players what percentage of them get to endgame? I would say no more than 10%. Why? Because once the newness wears off, the newbie protection or whatever else they become fair game for the vets who feed off of them. The newbies will begin to drop off and leave the game and only a small percentage who are lucky enough to either get in a good guild, or not get killed alot, or are sadistic and enjoy getting smacked around will survive. The rest will get tired and leave. Then the vets are all left wondering where everyone is, and make one of two statements: 1. We need to not kill of the noobs or 2. They knew what they were getting into, they bought a ticket..I say Let them crash. Screw them.
Then those that stated #1 will leave the game and your left with only those vets who think #2. Your server population gets less and less and less until finally the game shuts down.
Games need to focus on the middle ground people, and try to keep them going. Thats what DAoC tried to do when it made the battle ground realms for certain levels, but even they couldn't help them.
True, but there were a number of other things going for shadowbane.
1. It was NOT designed around FFA PVP, it was designed around Guild Warfare PVP. Surprisingly most people actually played it that way.
2. Unlike many other MMOs with Open PVP, This game had a way for players to police themselves effectively.
The weak point of Shadowbane was the ability to have multiple toons per server, allowing players to have "Good guy" toons that "played by the rules" and Ganking toons that were supporeted by the other.
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
Just proving what I said... Pointless. The market will sort this out.
Why they fail?
Most people don't like being lambs.
Lambs to the slaughter.
It's kind of funny... the wolves need sheep to prey on, but the FFA games discourage sheep from sticking around.
What happens in a game full of wolves?
People are too afraid to fight because they may lose.
Either that or they have pissing matches over territory.
Yep, thats kinda been my experience in FFA pvp concept games. It reaches a stage there's no sheep left, and the wolves need food.. and have to prey on other wolves. Issue being? Well, large percentage of the subscription fees or revenue the gaming company requires, derives from sheep. Just my opinion though, not trying to start an argument.
<QQ moar plz. kkthxbai.>
Well technicially you could call me one of those "lambs" as I am not a hard core pvper nor an "elite" player - but I LOVE ffa pvp.
I loved shadowbane.
Until they make another game like SB I doubt I'll be subscribing to any mmo.
Most mmo's right now are boring clones.
Kill people respawn, rinse and repeat - it's the same old tired pve formula with a different skin.
Boring. Boring. Boring.
Shadowbane had actual castle sieges - where your "team" could take over a world!
Epic.
I personally believe that PvP needs a real goal.
The idea of killing just for kills isn't really appealing to LOTS people, even for those who want to do some PvP. I played a lot of DotA and now Heroes of Newerth. That is essentially a PvP game (not quite what you guys are saying) but the idea is the same. You have your character and with a team you do battle against another side. The goal is winning and the reward is prestige.
Games like RYL2 where your race does battle against another race in largescale combat to win control over a high level leveling area, or Ragnarok where WoE causes guilds to do battle so that they can control castles have GOALS to their PvP, real rewards.
When information about JGE first started to come out we all got excited, it seemed as though PvP would have a real reward. You could control sectors of space to do mining in by making and placing space stations. While that dream now seems less than realized, the community was excited because there owuld be PvP that meant something. It would force people to form groups and fight for something they needed. It is what we all really want.
I also believe there is a serious flaw with FFA PvP: GANKERS
We want to PvP, and we don't want to be limited to only small meaningless sections. Unfortunately when you allow people to go into starting areas or cities and just start killing everyone there becomes an issue. Players aren't having fun. It always upsets us when the game handles it for us. It is like the developers are just holding our hands until we can defend ourselves, so then what is the solution?
Well we want people to protect eachother. Unfortunately there is again no reward or goal to helping a noobie. Sure they might join your guild, but what use do you have for someone who can't really do much of anything? There really has never been a good solution to this problem.
One i've proposed before is that we attempt to implement a bounty system. Player killers rack up bounties, given by the game. The law is then enforced by the players rather than the game. The reward is in place, monetary.
Anyways, those are just some thoughts about the issues
tl'dr version: PvP needs more of a reward than "you've killed x players you get y"
Um
PVP in playing markets isnt something that only happens in EVE.
My true experience with in-game markets was during my 5.5 yrs of EQ1(Feb 01 to mid 06). Sometimes I would set up in trader mode, and watch what was being bought up. I remember watching certain items being snatched up, only to be resold by that same person at a much higher price.
Basically they were setting the market price. If someone wanted that resource, that traders were hoarding, they would either have to pay top dollar....or hope to catch the item from a cheaper vendor before they are bought out.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Heh. EVE marketeering can get a little more involved than that.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
It limits progression.
It limits group based co-operation.
All it encourages is 'grief play' via actions without consequences.
Most people live in a world where actions have consequences, and due to social conditioning expect the same to happen in a makebelieve fantasy gameworld aswell.
When a game mechanic works against the majority of its playerbase haveing fun and being entertained, it's not going to last.
Nice post with some points I also believe wholeheartedly. I've stated many times over sentiments similar to this the DF forums for example are full of ffa pvp enthusiasts who outside of the fact that thrive off of ganking other players generally are too short sighted to treat them any differently post launch which just further pushes people away from wanting to play these types of games (DF in particular). In essence the players are often the games worst enemies.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
For online games to prosper, you have to create community.
When it's dog eat dog, no one wins.
Games like EvE survive because you need teamwork and community (corps and alliances) to survive.
Community is a hard thing to program into the source code at release.
It's something dynamic that evolves over time.
Most of these new FFA PvP games fail because they never build community.
QQ and go back to your themepark and leave indeed FFA pvp to those who like such games.
Why you care btw or even bother with topic if your not planning play such a game is beyond me?
Hundreds carebear mmo's, few hardcore pvp mmo's so dont see your problem OP?
Still feel threatend hahaha?.....even tho you dont play such games hehe.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
EVE online was released 2003 before WoW and is spacegame how many ffa pvp full loot spacegame mmo's you have?
So EVE have no competion if you look at space genre.
Games like Darkfall have hardtime becouse many many ex WoW or new mmo gamers from last few years try these games and then realise its way way harder then there beloved ezmode themepark they grow up with so Darkfall mortal online will have hardtime to survive thats reason.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
I really hope DF can survive with the 10k-15k subs they have.
From my experience ffapvpers tend to get bored if they have no sheep to kill.
Keep telling non-aggressives to go play a themepark and one day your going to look around in DF and see around a hundred people on the server, scattered PVEing...
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
FFA fails because the good players get together due to the fact the scrubs refuse to learn. They cry imbalance or hacks as soon as they die once and ragequit. You get elite pvp teams that slowly kill off the zergy, scruby, and skilless newbs who then unsub and there you go.
These are the same kind of people who in a non-ffa pvp game(WAR for example), log out after they die once and cry that someone is using an add-on or hack or has better gear or more levels or a broken class. Bad players don't mesh well with good ones.
No! DF has a hardtime because its lacking. It is extremely shallow when it comes to supporting players that enjoy other rulesets other than Ganking & griefing friendly gameplay.
Eve transcends its setting because its a quality sandbox mmo, that offers multiple ways to play over multiple rulesets. players can pick and choose the level of risk. keep saying Eve is good because there are no other spacegames lol. Eves competition is OTHER SANDBOX GAMES. Eve is owning DF, FE, MO and any other rinky dink sandbox out today it has nothing to do with setting. it has to do with polish and execution.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I'd agree.
If anything Eve's setting should hurt the game, since fantasy is far more popular. However as Rockgod99 says, you just can't compete with quality and polish.
Sorry but you are full of shit. Let me guess you got killed in a mmorpg and now you need to cry about it on the forums. Well you're name shows that already so I don't need an asnwer.
Carebear much?. I think so.
mmorpg's flop faster then mcdonalds cheese burgers these days.
But they get really excited if you don't show up in a Haluer or Shuttle.
So excited they dissapear from your overview in EVE ...........
No different in WoW .. L80 DK yomping away on the L30's in Stranglethorn, Ran away and hid from 2 L70's who came to look for him.
FFAPVP to some means "I want to ruin the playing experience of everyone around me"
Like all small minded spineless retards, they excell at abusing the playing experience of those that "stand no chance against them in combat", but they are very quick at running away and crying for mummy to help them if anything resembling a close fight even so much as looks at them.
Eventually they'll reach puberty and develop a brain, and some real balls.
The problem is that an MMO is about character development the problem is that free for all pvp does not work in a devleopmental role. MMOs are not like counterstrike or deathmatch doom they require the ability for people to expand their character.
FFA pvp games reduce peoples ability to progress their characters to be chain ganked or gang ganked by either better players OR groups of better players OR just people who play as a team.
The reward from FFA pvp is to kill other players and as such there is a winner and looser, and if the winner is rewarded while the looser is penalised if that happens constantly and the looser will eventually leave the game.
thus populating the game with winners who have been used to winning to find themselves loosing will eventually have them quit as well.
In the end the population is made up of incredibly skilled players who have the maturity to be able to win and loose. however a new player joining an already established pvp environment will not have aquired the maturity to accept death, but on the other hand they will not have aquired the skills to compete against the competition.
This is the core problem with free for all pvp. the most popular pvp games such as DAOC and WAR and EVE even WOW. they provide areas of control to allow people to level up to aquire the skills to suvive in pvp and so if they continue to loose they can fall back on PVE and increase their abilities till they can compete with the tough people.
Ahh... the old carebear argument.
Using labels with negative connotations rather than addressing the concerns with factual evidence to refute the claims made.
I love how some pro-PvPers can't seem to ever come up with any real arguments in support of why their choice in gameplay is supposidly so much more superior to the alternative, and simply resort to namecalling.
They talk of "freedom" and "choice" but what many fail to realize is that what you are really talking about is removing choice and freedom from others.
If you are free to attack anyone at any time, to make that choice, you end up making choices for other people - forcing them to PvP with you and they'll most likely fail to defend themselves.
There is a reason a smart hunter will take on a target of opportunity instead of looking for an even match.
Being a hunter isn't about being on equal terms, a competition between opposing forces, it's about domination.
It's all about hunter and prey. Victim and victimizer.
There is a reason 99.9% of people would not hunt a bear with a knife, because it's much easier to use a gun.
Victim and prey.
But you do have the folks who want competition, to be actually proven to be better not just dominate others.
Those are the real PvP'ers.
Don't believe me?
Why do you think battlegrounds and arena's and such are so much more popular? Because it's about competition - it's about sport, rather then simply domination.
That's why I don't consider hunting and fishing actual sports...
You aren't competing with a foe capable of playing on the same level as you.
FFA PvP?
To me, it's just an exercise of those at the top of food chain exercising their dominance over those on the lower end. Just like hunting/fishing.
Can you be a skilled hunter or fisherman for sure, this is not about skill.
But you can't be a skilled prey.
Couple this with the fact that MMOs generally = some form of progression, and again you are left with higher foodchain exerting dominance over lesser folk.
No competition. No honor. No sport.
Just wanted to add a little game of Fallout 2238, which is a FFA PvP with full gear drop (but you can have a safehouse, which actually can get compromised if you are not careful). But that's just it's feel.
For me, FFA PvP can be fun for some, but for it to be fun it would require a system that give both sides a chance whatever the level, skill, gear diffrence there is. This is never happening. I don't know even a single MMORPG that fullfils that point. FFA PvP games are mostly, IMHO, populated by pray looking hunters on the higher levels and hunter-wannabes on the lower levels. The anout of bad feel when you get beaten by a guy which you have literally no chance to beat is bad enough for me not to play a game. Just my opinion.