Does anyone really wonder why modern MMO games seem shallow, and the player base seems immature and idiotic? These theme park games have nothing to offer to people who are not combat centric. Sandbox games like Pre-CU SWG had a thriving community because it was a diverse community. People from all walks of life played that game because there was a slice of gameplay for everyone, not just combat. This drew in artistic people, explorers, people who were business-minded, people who enjoyed science as well as fighters.
Until games are made again that have something to offer a broader range of tastes, we will continue to see childish and intolerant communities around these MMOs.
That is BS.
EQ's community was touted quite a lot here and it was a combat centric game.
EQ was early enough in online MMO gaming when mostly geeks like us hardcore MMO players who were generally into computers, reading and "smart stuff" were the ones playing. I think we can all agree that the genre has now been overrun by the unwashed masses and is full of mouthbreating idiots that weren't around as much back when EQ was new. It's a whole different ballgame these days.
If that sounded elitest, it was.
Don't mean to sound conscending about the masses but back then they thankfully couldnt afford computers :P And today well they are now too cheap to upgrade their computer even though it would cost only 200-400 $ .
The fact remains that damn few(if any...) Dev's are looking at the experiences of other companies and at least attempting not to make the same bone headed mistakes that they did.
I cannot stress enough how much I agree with this statement. It is absolutely amazing to me how many companies repeat the same mistakes over and over that have been clearly shown by other companies and game releases to be bad for the overall sale and retention of their product.
I swear to god it's like they see the past mistakes and failures and simply shrug them off saying, " Yeah, it ended up backfiring or being an overall failure for them but we're not them! We're 'company X', and we're not only going to do it better than them, but people will really like it when we do it! We'll present it in such a way that it can't possibly fail or cause the same problems it did them! It would be inconceivable!"
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
The fact remains that damn few(if any...) Dev's are looking at the experiences of other companies and at least attempting not to make the same bone headed mistakes that they did.
I cannot stress enough how much I agree with this statement. It is absolutely amazing to me how many companies repeat the same mistakes over and over that have been clearly shown by other companies and game releases to be bad for the overall sale and retention of their product.
I swear to god it's like they see the past mistakes and failures and simply shrug them off saying, " Yeah, it ended up backfiring or being an overall failure for them but we're not them! We're 'company X', and we're not only going to do it better than them, but people will really like it when we do it! We'll present it in such a way that it can't possibly fail or cause the same problems it did them! It would be inconceivable!"
They won't ever learn until the industry collapses under its string of failures then they will wonder where they went wrong finally when their out of work, the answer is simple ,1. Stop chasing WOW sub numbers, subs won't come if the game is in a poor state and not polished, 2. Stop trying to emulate WOW mechanics and the holy trinity give other reasons and features sides combat and loot grinds to play your game. 3. Stop ingoring features that pioneered the industry and bring them back in a way that are viable today even though the WOW kiddies never have experienced them and have no idea what they are missing . 4. Raise sub prices , there is no reason anymore to say why we can't raise the monthly sub to 20$ after consisently hearing MMOs are expensive to make today but then they throw in the cash shops to offset the cost, we don't need cash shops to pay for your game raise the subs and don without the shops, for smaller budget games that may prove to work out better but big budget games no thank you .
The fact remains that damn few(if any...) Dev's are looking at the experiences of other companies and at least attempting not to make the same bone headed mistakes that they did.
I cannot stress enough how much I agree with this statement. It is absolutely amazing to me how many companies repeat the same mistakes over and over that have been clearly shown by other companies and game releases to be bad for the overall sale and retention of their product.
I swear to god it's like they see the past mistakes and failures and simply shrug them off saying, " Yeah, it ended up backfiring or being an overall failure for them but we're not them! We're 'company X', and we're not only going to do it better than them, but people will really like it when we do it! We'll present it in such a way that it can't possibly fail or cause the same problems it did them! It would be inconceivable!"
I think this same thing every time I see a new game come out that wasn't ready to be launched. Then the devs/publishers wonder why they never recover from losing all the initial subscribers. It boggles the mind.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Not sure why people have such high expections from these MMOs and get so upset when they are disappointed. I mean, it can't get any closer to real life than that. After all, isn't your life not going as well as you hoped? That is, wouldn't we all be spending more time enjoying our lives and less time trying to find enjoyment in a virtual one if things were great?
We can complain, and do, more about our real world and the disagreeable rules that were put in place (by governments, religions, etc.) We can't seem to get our way out here in the real world. It would appear that the same applies in the virtual universe. At least in the virtual worlds there is more than one to choose from.
Naw man this isnt about making up for some pscychological defficiency in my life. I like my life very much ty.
I'm not trying to escape life in some futile attempt online....i just want some decent games made that act more like virtual worlds. I'm sorry you jump to conclusions like that.
I could get flamed even more for this, but I’m going to try to take a middle of the road stance. Maybe it will be refreshing, we’ll see.
The plaguing discussion of which genre, if there really are sufficient differences between them to warrant varying genres, is superior, more profitable, or whatever other elemnt of dissention is presented, is something that may never be solved – at least to a sufficient level of satisfaction to those who continue to wish to discuss the issue.
Granted, there are certain aspects of each purported genre, but how any why gamers place those aspects into certain genres are products of their unique and individual playstyles and experiences. They are not inherent in one genre or the other. It all depends on the people who play these games and their expectations.
I would argue that instead of trying to ‘separate’ MMOs into genres, categories, and other divisionary titles, we as the entirety of the community should be trying to push the genre forward with aspects that we can all enjoy, rather than being so divisive. It is agreed that people have certain viewpoints and they adhere to them with unwavering loyalties, and I am no different. However, if we continue to divide ourselves, how will developers ‘hopefully’ learn what aspects we want and those that we do not? I think most of us can agree that grind needs to be phased out, and that questing needs to be redesigned (i.e., Guild Wars 2).
People are incredibly varied, and trying to force people into one or two types of MMOs is not the answer. Despite whether one prefers a sandbox or a themepark, I would argue that people don’t really like sandboxes or themeparks, they like certain aspects that are commonly associated with them.
The most important factor here is choice, and the reason that so many sandbox fans are upset, irritated, or even angry, is that the aspects that they find most enjoyable in MMOs are not being considered. Similarly in that video, not everyone likes the same type of spaghetti sauce, nor do they enjoy the same type of MMO. Regardless of whether developers see a certain group of aspects as being more profitable, everyone has aspects that they enjoy, and they ought to be considered. Just because one doesn’t like a certain MMO, or they don’t like certain aspects of it, they shouldn’t pooh-pooh the fun for others. I could be hypocritical here, I’ve tried not to be, but making blanket statements based on assumptions and specific experiences (things such as, older "veteran" MMOs, need to stop looking to the past with rose-colored glasses and adapt) is not reflective of the entire MMO community. Once again, we all have different things that we like.
I agree that, “By embracing the diversity of human beings, we can find a sure way to true happiness.”
I've played online games since Trade Wars on my Commodore 64. I get it. Here's what I also get: I have a wife and three boys...all of whom enjoy gaming. I play games they can play with me. Since all three of my boys are under 18, I choose to play a game that is easier for them to play. At this stage of life, I can't invest the time I'd like to on an entirely different game and still be able to game w/ my family.
I've played online games since Trade Wars on my Commodore 64. I get it. Here's what I also get: I have a wife and three boys...all of whom enjoy gaming. I play games they can play with me. Since all three of my boys are under 18, I choose to play a game that is easier for them to play. At this stage of life, I can't invest the time I'd like to on an entirely different game and still be able to game w/ my family.
It's not always about people who 'don't get it.'
Are you forced to play pokemon and the Wii?
I purposely introduced good games to my boys lives knowing I would be playing along with them (to reduce wife aggro).
My oldest is eleven and my youngest boy is six. I started them on atari (yeah i still have one) and in a year they've both progressed to 360 and PC games.
While they have many hobbies like sports and the arts both play totally kick ass games. My six year old can smoke me in Super Street Fighter 4 and my eleven year old is a god damn borg when it comes to Modern Warfare 2.
My oldest son plays Eve with me and my youngest prefers playing Lotro with my wife.
With that said I think its cool that you game with your kids and once they advance to better more complex games its really sweet.
"At the end level ... WOW is even too much of a sandbox for the limited imagination of people crying for a sandbox..."
......
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
What is the single reason that there are so many wow clone theme park games out there? The answer is : Because people play them.
When us older farts (I'm only 35 hehe) first sat down to play mmos in the early days it wasn't to play some mouse on a wheel spinning after gear crap. For many of us, including the developers, it was the pnp Dungeons and Dragons finally actualized. Sure the UI was clunky but there was some aspect of it that made you feel like you were part of the environment. Most new developers probably haven't even seen a D20
Gear was part of it indeed. I had one silver broadsword in UO for a long time. One. I protected that thing until I lost it at the bottom of dungeon Deceit. I got pk'd down there. He cast wall of stone on me while I was fighting a lich lord. Thats right: I lost something in the game world and I still remember "where" and "when" in the game world it happend. That memory stayed with me because it represented the loss of something gained. UO remains the only game world where I traded a house I owned for a wooden chair because it was broken and therefore "rare".
In the beginning I thought the sky was going to be the limit. The worlds that would come. The cool things that they'd do. Hey game devs: where is Recall V2.0 and Gatetravel? Where is treasure hunting? Anyone with 1 year experience could spawn a map, a shovel and a chest spawn point. Where is sailing like in UO and housing and everythign else? I'll tell you where 10 ++ years in the past and its your fault for subscribing to this stuff Please cite the page in the wow book of all things where it says rare items or unique items must not spawn.
Now its all this free to play nonsense which wouldn't be a scam if it didn't FEEL like a scam and if they werent trying to hide the fact you don't get something for nothing.
In my mind MMOs were never going to be cooperative single player RPG games. They were meant to be game worlds with an ecosystem made up of various parts but primarily influenced by the players. Sandbox means: here is a bucket of toys, go play with them.
What the hell has happened to this industry? Its gone completely fubar. All I can say is thank god for Eve Online. The one place where I still clearly remember when and where I loose stuff. The one place where I feel the player has the upper hand in how to participate in content and the one place that promises to give me a good ass kicking for my missteps. In Eve sometimes there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
The best thing that can happen to this industry is for there to be a seperation in ideology. I dont want to be called a mmorpg gamer anymore and any game that offers fedx and kill as its primary entertainment can go. I believe its time for a new paradigm that seperates those that understand the properties of what goes into making good virtual worlds and those that think that World of Warcraft is the Rosetta Stone of online interactive game play.
I dont really mean to offend people who enjoy theme park games. It is a style, and its a valid one but it represents a level of creative indulgence I've experience already. I find that sandbox , free to roam worlds offer the most intresting experiences because by nature human behaviour is unpredictable whereas games on rails always have predictable outcomes.
The last 10 years of gaming has been spent developing hatred for what the genre has become. You can say how innovative the graphics engines have become but if you boil game play down it hasn't changed. The level wheel has been perfected to be the perfect result of scripted programming instead of the otherway around.
anyway have a nice day.
Honestly if you were born in Biblical times i would be following you around in my ragged robe listening to you talk to the masses.
I feel your pain I have been playing since first week of EQ1 and was only this morning thinkin its actually been a year since i played a MMO cause its just all crap and the whole Genre is regressing still...
"At the end level ... WOW is even too much of a sandbox for the limited imagination of people crying for a sandbox..."
.....
Apparently thinking hurts over here ...
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
"At the end level ... WOW is even too much of a sandbox for the limited imagination of people crying for a sandbox..."
......
Hard to imagine a more blatantly wrong assessment of WoW. It's too sandboxy, really?
Apparently it is too sandbox for you because you only see "pvp" and "raids" at the end game of the world.
Sorry, but if even Blizzard can't motivate you to choose from the 1200 other achievements, competitions, acitivities and titles to go for in a world without ... levels (end game)....
I am sure no one can.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
I don't know why people keep saying developers are chasing wow number. Maybe they are just chasing Aion, lineage, LOTR, FFXI numbers. Which is good enough for quite a good profit.
It's not like darkfall or mortal online is doing that fantastic too.
And people talk about how themepark gamers are just a bunch of egro epeen gearscore chaser. That may be true, but those kind of gamers are easy to please. The only thing developers need to do is come up with new dungeons and pvp gears every few month and that's enough to keep the gear chaser occupied.
Anyway, I'm just happy that the developers are still making games. It's quite sad to know that the only MMO more profitable than club penguin composed of wow, item mall games, asian grinder, FFXI, farmville, and Eve.
There is a reason why there arent many sandbox games, and no AAA ones in recent years: The risk of making one is too big.
AAA MMOs cost a ton of money to produce. The good ones are in development for YEARS before release. Someone has to invest millions of dollars with no return on their money for likely 5 years, and even then no guarantee the game will be successful enough to see a profit.
On top of this, sandbox games require a lot more work to be done well, at least well enough to hope to have a broad enough appeal to be able to make a return on their investment. Its not as easy as someone posted saying you just make the system and the players make the content. No, you have to give the players tools for that content. Players still need to have stuff to do, and sandboxes need even more of this than 'theme park' games. If the player truly wants to do anything, the developers needs to have programmed the capability for this to happen.
What is the single reason that there are so many wow clone theme park games out there? The answer is : Because people play them.
When us older farts (I'm only 35 hehe) first sat down to play mmos in the early days it wasn't to play some mouse on a wheel spinning after gear crap. For many of us, including the developers, it was the pnp Dungeons and Dragons finally actualized. Sure the UI was clunky but there was some aspect of it that made you feel like you were part of the environment. Most new developers probably haven't even seen a D20
Gear was part of it indeed. I had one silver broadsword in UO for a long time. One. I protected that thing until I lost it at the bottom of dungeon Deceit. I got pk'd down there. He cast wall of stone on me while I was fighting a lich lord. Thats right: I lost something in the game world and I still remember "where" and "when" in the game world it happend. That memory stayed with me because it represented the loss of something gained. UO remains the only game world where I traded a house I owned for a wooden chair because it was broken and therefore "rare".
In the beginning I thought the sky was going to be the limit. The worlds that would come. The cool things that they'd do. Hey game devs: where is Recall V2.0 and Gatetravel? Where is treasure hunting? Anyone with 1 year experience could spawn a map, a shovel and a chest spawn point. Where is sailing like in UO and housing and everythign else? I'll tell you where 10 ++ years in the past and its your fault for subscribing to this stuff Please cite the page in the wow book of all things where it says rare items or unique items must not spawn.
Now its all this free to play nonsense which wouldn't be a scam if it didn't FEEL like a scam and if they werent trying to hide the fact you don't get something for nothing.
In my mind MMOs were never going to be cooperative single player RPG games. They were meant to be game worlds with an ecosystem made up of various parts but primarily influenced by the players. Sandbox means: here is a bucket of toys, go play with them.
What the hell has happened to this industry? Its gone completely fubar. All I can say is thank god for Eve Online. The one place where I still clearly remember when and where I loose stuff. The one place where I feel the player has the upper hand in how to participate in content and the one place that promises to give me a good ass kicking for my missteps. In Eve sometimes there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
The best thing that can happen to this industry is for there to be a seperation in ideology. I dont want to be called a mmorpg gamer anymore and any game that offers fedx and kill as its primary entertainment can go. I believe its time for a new paradigm that seperates those that understand the properties of what goes into making good virtual worlds and those that think that World of Warcraft is the Rosetta Stone of online interactive game play.
I dont really mean to offend people who enjoy theme park games. It is a style, and its a valid one but it represents a level of creative indulgence I've experience already. I find that sandbox , free to roam worlds offer the most intresting experiences because by nature human behaviour is unpredictable whereas games on rails always have predictable outcomes.
The last 10 years of gaming has been spent developing hatred for what the genre has become. You can say how innovative the graphics engines have become but if you boil game play down it hasn't changed. The level wheel has been perfected to be the perfect result of scripted programming instead of the otherway around.
anyway have a nice day.
Your post almost made me cry. If you became a guru and wore a bathrobe all day and just discussed these lost values I would be your number one fan! Thank you, You have restored my faith in humanity.
If you ask me, there's never even been a real sandbox game ever. Except for maybe Second Life.
What's your definition of a sandbox?
A game that let's you freely distribute skill points?
A game without quests?
A game without levels?
A game with housing?
To me a sandbox would be a game that has COMPLETE freedom. That means, they need mechanics to modify the environment and objects any way you want. You can also advance your character any way you want.
That also means you can use anything you can carry as a weapon.
There's one reason there hasn't been a real sandbox... it would be a nightmare to develop.
Darkfall is not a sandbox, it still operates under fairly limited mechanics, same with UO, MO, SWG.... etc.
If you ask me, there's never even been a real sandbox game ever. Except for maybe Second Life.
What's your definition of a sandbox?
A game that let's you freely distribute skill points?
A game without quests?
A game without levels?
A game with housing?
To me a sandbox would be a game that has COMPLETE freedom. That means, they need mechanics to modify the environment and objects any way you want. You can also advance your character any way you want.
That also means you can use anything you can carry as a weapon.
There's one reason there hasn't been a real sandbox... it would be a nightmare to develop.
Darkfall is not a sandbox, it still operates under fairly limited mechanics, same with UO, MO, SWG.... etc.
I think your definition of sandbox it's not the same of the usual.
You should try to give a different name to that utopic game type with COMPLETE freedom.
Unfortunately I'm one of the many that have been corrupted by WoW.
Being only 18 now, I wasn't exactly *aware* of the older, "golden age" titles when they were popular (except for Diablo 1, however that isn't precisely an MMORPG) I am talking more along the lines of EQ or UO and such.
WoW has really set my standards high, which isn't saying much since WoW isn't actually THAT GOOD. These newer games are just... Meh. Boring. Bland. Everything from their UI's to their textures to their content, it just screams... Meh.
I've tried WAR, CoH, FFXI (my second favorite MMO, however), blah blah blah, and countless Free titles, and I always always ALWAYS compare every. Single. Aspect of the game to WoW.
I've tried to quit WoW so many times, but always seem to come back to it because I just NEED that MMO stimulation I can't get from any other game right now.
It's quite sad.
There is a chance newer titles will save my soul... But I sincerely doubt it.
SW:TOR, Tera, FFXIV etc., whatever. I just don't have much confidence in any of them right now.
I hope I am proven wrong, as I, too, tire of the senseless meanderings that "theme park games" currently possess.
EQ would have been WoW with a group focus if McQuaid had more time, money, and anyone actually had a clue about what they were doing. EQ was a very unfinished game that had not had the rails added onto it yet. The Vision was also good times. Thou shalt suffer and play as the Lord sees fit else the Lord shall smite thee with artifical mechanics.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
EQ would have been WoW with a group focus if McQuaid had more time, money, and anyone actually had a clue about what they were doing. EQ was a very unfinished game that had not had the rails added onto it yet. The Vision was also good times. Thou shalt suffer and play as the Lord sees fit else the Lord shall smite thee with artifical mechanics.
...artificial mechanics? So instances, invisible walls, magical global markets that teleport goods, battlegrounds that never actually change hands or impact the game, none of those are artificial mechanics?
You guys know UO is still around and recently launched an expansion right?
I love people like this that just prove they have absolutely no clue about the games mentioned, yet they still hope in these discussions as if they do.
Those old games are gone, or we'd be playing them.
Unfortunately I'm one of the many that have been corrupted by WoW.
Being only 18 now, I wasn't exactly *aware* of the older, "golden age" titles when they were popular (except for Diablo 1, however that isn't precisely an MMORPG) I am talking more along the lines of EQ or UO and such.
WoW has really set my standards high, which isn't saying much since WoW isn't actually THAT GOOD. These newer games are just... Meh. Boring. Bland. Everything from their UI's to their textures to their content, it just screams... Meh.
I've tried WAR, CoH, FFXI (my second favorite MMO, however), blah blah blah, and countless Free titles, and I always always ALWAYS compare every. Single. Aspect of the game to WoW.
I've tried to quit WoW so many times, but always seem to come back to it because I just NEED that MMO stimulation I can't get from any other game right now.
It's quite sad.
There is a chance newer titles will save my soul... But I sincerely doubt it.
SW:TOR, Tera, FFXIV etc., whatever. I just don't have much confidence in any of them right now.
I hope I am proven wrong, as I, too, tire of the senseless meanderings that "theme park games" currently possess.
It's just boring to me. Overdone.
Hey Twsted, I finally got my best friend to quit playing WoW after sooo many attempts. He came over about 4 weeks ago and I was playing LotRO on my computer and he wanted to make a char. He has been playing WoW since release and although he has kinda gotten tired of it he has never played another MMO that has kept him playing over a few hours. Well he made a Warden that day on LotRO and hit lvl 20 in like 6 hrs or so (yeah he is pretty hardcore, he can ding 80 in WoW in about 2 months) Well he looked at the time and jumped up and said he had to go to work. On the way out he said "well that was a lot better game than he had expected it to be" and left . Hadn't seen him in a while now called him upthe other day to ask what he was up to, turns out he went to the gamestore and had bought his own copy of LotRO complete to Seige of Mirkwood and had a new char (Hunter) lvled up to 56 already(65 is max). We been playing together a lot and he just Dinged 65 today. Said he loves it and couldn't believe he wasted all those years on WoW. I am still in shock! Lotro does still kinda have that old school feel to it.. The anouncement to go free to play this fall really has me deppressed though, I will sorely miss the community if it changes (Brandywine Server - other servers are low on pop) Brandywine is almost always full.
Check it out if you havent done so, it is the only reason I haven't given up on MMO's altogether nowdays......Don't let the early lvls fool you . There are a lot of new game systems that come into play as you lvl up. There's a lot more to LotRO that at first meets the eye once you get your interface set up right and get used to things....
EQ would have been WoW with a group focus if McQuaid had more time, money, and anyone actually had a clue about what they were doing. EQ was a very unfinished game that had not had the rails added onto it yet. The Vision was also good times. Thou shalt suffer and play as the Lord sees fit else the Lord shall smite thee with artifical mechanics.
...artificial mechanics? So instances, invisible walls, magical global markets that teleport goods, battlegrounds that never actually change hands or impact the game, none of those are artificial mechanics?
Did I claim they were not? McQuaid had his Vision about the way the game should be played and tried very hard to ensure everyone played with his toy his way.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Comments
Don't mean to sound conscending about the masses but back then they thankfully couldnt afford computers :P And today well they are now too cheap to upgrade their computer even though it would cost only 200-400 $ .
I cannot stress enough how much I agree with this statement. It is absolutely amazing to me how many companies repeat the same mistakes over and over that have been clearly shown by other companies and game releases to be bad for the overall sale and retention of their product.
I swear to god it's like they see the past mistakes and failures and simply shrug them off saying, " Yeah, it ended up backfiring or being an overall failure for them but we're not them! We're 'company X', and we're not only going to do it better than them, but people will really like it when we do it! We'll present it in such a way that it can't possibly fail or cause the same problems it did them! It would be inconceivable!"
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
They won't ever learn until the industry collapses under its string of failures then they will wonder where they went wrong finally when their out of work, the answer is simple ,1. Stop chasing WOW sub numbers, subs won't come if the game is in a poor state and not polished, 2. Stop trying to emulate WOW mechanics and the holy trinity give other reasons and features sides combat and loot grinds to play your game. 3. Stop ingoring features that pioneered the industry and bring them back in a way that are viable today even though the WOW kiddies never have experienced them and have no idea what they are missing . 4. Raise sub prices , there is no reason anymore to say why we can't raise the monthly sub to 20$ after consisently hearing MMOs are expensive to make today but then they throw in the cash shops to offset the cost, we don't need cash shops to pay for your game raise the subs and don without the shops, for smaller budget games that may prove to work out better but big budget games no thank you .
I think this same thing every time I see a new game come out that wasn't ready to be launched. Then the devs/publishers wonder why they never recover from losing all the initial subscribers. It boggles the mind.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Not sure why people have such high expections from these MMOs and get so upset when they are disappointed. I mean, it can't get any closer to real life than that. After all, isn't your life not going as well as you hoped? That is, wouldn't we all be spending more time enjoying our lives and less time trying to find enjoyment in a virtual one if things were great?
We can complain, and do, more about our real world and the disagreeable rules that were put in place (by governments, religions, etc.) We can't seem to get our way out here in the real world. It would appear that the same applies in the virtual universe. At least in the virtual worlds there is more than one to choose from.
Naw man this isnt about making up for some pscychological defficiency in my life. I like my life very much ty.
I'm not trying to escape life in some futile attempt online....i just want some decent games made that act more like virtual worlds. I'm sorry you jump to conclusions like that.
I could get flamed even more for this, but I’m going to try to take a middle of the road stance. Maybe it will be refreshing, we’ll see.
The plaguing discussion of which genre, if there really are sufficient differences between them to warrant varying genres, is superior, more profitable, or whatever other elemnt of dissention is presented, is something that may never be solved – at least to a sufficient level of satisfaction to those who continue to wish to discuss the issue.
Granted, there are certain aspects of each purported genre, but how any why gamers place those aspects into certain genres are products of their unique and individual playstyles and experiences. They are not inherent in one genre or the other. It all depends on the people who play these games and their expectations.
I would argue that instead of trying to ‘separate’ MMOs into genres, categories, and other divisionary titles, we as the entirety of the community should be trying to push the genre forward with aspects that we can all enjoy, rather than being so divisive. It is agreed that people have certain viewpoints and they adhere to them with unwavering loyalties, and I am no different. However, if we continue to divide ourselves, how will developers ‘hopefully’ learn what aspects we want and those that we do not? I think most of us can agree that grind needs to be phased out, and that questing needs to be redesigned (i.e., Guild Wars 2).
People are incredibly varied, and trying to force people into one or two types of MMOs is not the answer. Despite whether one prefers a sandbox or a themepark, I would argue that people don’t really like sandboxes or themeparks, they like certain aspects that are commonly associated with them.
I would recommend to everyone who reads this to watch Malcolm Gladwell’s presentation from TED2004. http://www.ted.com/talks/malcolm_gladwell_on_spaghetti_sauce.html
The most important factor here is choice, and the reason that so many sandbox fans are upset, irritated, or even angry, is that the aspects that they find most enjoyable in MMOs are not being considered. Similarly in that video, not everyone likes the same type of spaghetti sauce, nor do they enjoy the same type of MMO. Regardless of whether developers see a certain group of aspects as being more profitable, everyone has aspects that they enjoy, and they ought to be considered. Just because one doesn’t like a certain MMO, or they don’t like certain aspects of it, they shouldn’t pooh-pooh the fun for others. I could be hypocritical here, I’ve tried not to be, but making blanket statements based on assumptions and specific experiences (things such as, older "veteran" MMOs, need to stop looking to the past with rose-colored glasses and adapt) is not reflective of the entire MMO community. Once again, we all have different things that we like.
I agree that, “By embracing the diversity of human beings, we can find a sure way to true happiness.”
I've played online games since Trade Wars on my Commodore 64. I get it. Here's what I also get: I have a wife and three boys...all of whom enjoy gaming. I play games they can play with me. Since all three of my boys are under 18, I choose to play a game that is easier for them to play. At this stage of life, I can't invest the time I'd like to on an entirely different game and still be able to game w/ my family.
It's not always about people who 'don't get it.'
Are you forced to play pokemon and the Wii?
I purposely introduced good games to my boys lives knowing I would be playing along with them (to reduce wife aggro).
My oldest is eleven and my youngest boy is six. I started them on atari (yeah i still have one) and in a year they've both progressed to 360 and PC games.
While they have many hobbies like sports and the arts both play totally kick ass games. My six year old can smoke me in Super Street Fighter 4 and my eleven year old is a god damn borg when it comes to Modern Warfare 2.
My oldest son plays Eve with me and my youngest prefers playing Lotro with my wife.
With that said I think its cool that you game with your kids and once they advance to better more complex games its really sweet.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
The core of the problem:
.....
"At the end level ... WOW is even too much of a sandbox for the limited imagination of people crying for a sandbox..."
......
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
Honestly if you were born in Biblical times i would be following you around in my ragged robe listening to you talk to the masses.
I feel your pain I have been playing since first week of EQ1 and was only this morning thinkin its actually been a year since i played a MMO cause its just all crap and the whole Genre is regressing still...
Good post.
The core of the problem:
.....
"At the end level ... WOW is even too much of a sandbox for the limited imagination of people crying for a sandbox..."
.....
Apparently thinking hurts over here ...
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
Hard to imagine a more blatantly wrong assessment of WoW. It's too sandboxy, really?
Apparently it is too sandbox for you because you only see "pvp" and "raids" at the end game of the world.
Sorry, but if even Blizzard can't motivate you to choose from the 1200 other achievements, competitions, acitivities and titles to go for in a world without ... levels (end game)....
I am sure no one can.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
I don't know why people keep saying developers are chasing wow number. Maybe they are just chasing Aion, lineage, LOTR, FFXI numbers. Which is good enough for quite a good profit.
It's not like darkfall or mortal online is doing that fantastic too.
And people talk about how themepark gamers are just a bunch of egro epeen gearscore chaser. That may be true, but those kind of gamers are easy to please. The only thing developers need to do is come up with new dungeons and pvp gears every few month and that's enough to keep the gear chaser occupied.
Anyway, I'm just happy that the developers are still making games. It's quite sad to know that the only MMO more profitable than club penguin composed of wow, item mall games, asian grinder, FFXI, farmville, and Eve.
AAA MMOs cost a ton of money to produce. The good ones are in development for YEARS before release. Someone has to invest millions of dollars with no return on their money for likely 5 years, and even then no guarantee the game will be successful enough to see a profit.
On top of this, sandbox games require a lot more work to be done well, at least well enough to hope to have a broad enough appeal to be able to make a return on their investment. Its not as easy as someone posted saying you just make the system and the players make the content. No, you have to give the players tools for that content. Players still need to have stuff to do, and sandboxes need even more of this than 'theme park' games. If the player truly wants to do anything, the developers needs to have programmed the capability for this to happen.Your post almost made me cry. If you became a guru and wore a bathrobe all day and just discussed these lost values I would be your number one fan! Thank you, You have restored my faith in humanity.
If you ask me, there's never even been a real sandbox game ever. Except for maybe Second Life.
What's your definition of a sandbox?
A game that let's you freely distribute skill points?
A game without quests?
A game without levels?
A game with housing?
To me a sandbox would be a game that has COMPLETE freedom. That means, they need mechanics to modify the environment and objects any way you want. You can also advance your character any way you want.
That also means you can use anything you can carry as a weapon.
There's one reason there hasn't been a real sandbox... it would be a nightmare to develop.
Darkfall is not a sandbox, it still operates under fairly limited mechanics, same with UO, MO, SWG.... etc.
I think your definition of sandbox it's not the same of the usual.
You should try to give a different name to that utopic game type with COMPLETE freedom.
For me sandbox is that >
Unfortunately I'm one of the many that have been corrupted by WoW.
Being only 18 now, I wasn't exactly *aware* of the older, "golden age" titles when they were popular (except for Diablo 1, however that isn't precisely an MMORPG) I am talking more along the lines of EQ or UO and such.
WoW has really set my standards high, which isn't saying much since WoW isn't actually THAT GOOD. These newer games are just... Meh. Boring. Bland. Everything from their UI's to their textures to their content, it just screams... Meh.
I've tried WAR, CoH, FFXI (my second favorite MMO, however), blah blah blah, and countless Free titles, and I always always ALWAYS compare every. Single. Aspect of the game to WoW.
I've tried to quit WoW so many times, but always seem to come back to it because I just NEED that MMO stimulation I can't get from any other game right now.
It's quite sad.
There is a chance newer titles will save my soul... But I sincerely doubt it.
SW:TOR, Tera, FFXIV etc., whatever. I just don't have much confidence in any of them right now.
I hope I am proven wrong, as I, too, tire of the senseless meanderings that "theme park games" currently possess.
It's just boring to me. Overdone.
Meh. Old games...
EQ would have been WoW with a group focus if McQuaid had more time, money, and anyone actually had a clue about what they were doing. EQ was a very unfinished game that had not had the rails added onto it yet. The Vision was also good times. Thou shalt suffer and play as the Lord sees fit else the Lord shall smite thee with artifical mechanics.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
...artificial mechanics? So instances, invisible walls, magical global markets that teleport goods, battlegrounds that never actually change hands or impact the game, none of those are artificial mechanics?
I love people like this that just prove they have absolutely no clue about the games mentioned, yet they still hope in these discussions as if they do.
Those old games are gone, or we'd be playing them.
Hey Twsted, I finally got my best friend to quit playing WoW after sooo many attempts. He came over about 4 weeks ago and I was playing LotRO on my computer and he wanted to make a char. He has been playing WoW since release and although he has kinda gotten tired of it he has never played another MMO that has kept him playing over a few hours. Well he made a Warden that day on LotRO and hit lvl 20 in like 6 hrs or so (yeah he is pretty hardcore, he can ding 80 in WoW in about 2 months) Well he looked at the time and jumped up and said he had to go to work. On the way out he said "well that was a lot better game than he had expected it to be" and left . Hadn't seen him in a while now called him upthe other day to ask what he was up to, turns out he went to the gamestore and had bought his own copy of LotRO complete to Seige of Mirkwood and had a new char (Hunter) lvled up to 56 already(65 is max). We been playing together a lot and he just Dinged 65 today. Said he loves it and couldn't believe he wasted all those years on WoW. I am still in shock! Lotro does still kinda have that old school feel to it.. The anouncement to go free to play this fall really has me deppressed though, I will sorely miss the community if it changes (Brandywine Server - other servers are low on pop) Brandywine is almost always full.
Check it out if you havent done so, it is the only reason I haven't given up on MMO's altogether nowdays......Don't let the early lvls fool you . There are a lot of new game systems that come into play as you lvl up. There's a lot more to LotRO that at first meets the eye once you get your interface set up right and get used to things....
Did I claim they were not? McQuaid had his Vision about the way the game should be played and tried very hard to ensure everyone played with his toy his way.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.