Imagine you went to a fast food drive in, where people are lined up in their cars to get their quick and easy meals. You step out of your car and say why don't we all go make a Thanksgiving type feast together. You there in the Camry, you can make the turkey. I'll make the ham. That lady in the SUV can cook the squash.
They would just laugh at you. It's not their mentality. They don't want to do things with other people. And they don't want to do anything that requires effort or time. They would jeer and honk their horns angrily that you even made the suggestion and not care how rude they were.
That's pretty much how it is trying to get WoW-type players to embrace "community." When they hear that word, it translates in their mind to "my satisfaction may be delayed and I won't be able to act selfishly and still get everything I want."
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
The amount of generalization in this thread almost makes me want to cry.
Perhaps when we talk about WoW, as an example, we should make 11.5 million seperate threads and refer to every one of its players by name and individual circumstance?
Generalization is necessary to talk about games.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
The amount of generalization in this thread almost makes me want to cry.
Perhaps when we talk about WoW, as an example, we should make 11.5 million seperate threads and refer to every one of its players by name and individual circumstance?
Generalization is necessary to talk about games.
Perhaps not, but saying that the whole community is rotten is ignorant to say the least.
The amount of generalization in this thread almost makes me want to cry.
Perhaps when we talk about WoW, as an example, we should make 11.5 million seperate threads and refer to every one of its players by name and individual circumstance?
Generalization is necessary to talk about games.
Perhaps not, but saying that the whole community is rotten is ignorant to say the least.
I would argue that it is less ignorant than ignoring its many flaws and the devestating effects it has had on the quality of gaming communities. But I invite you to log into WoW and try to have a more intelligent conversation, if you work one in between the Chuck Norris and "anal" chat.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
The amount of generalization in this thread almost makes me want to cry.
Perhaps when we talk about WoW, as an example, we should make 11.5 million seperate threads and refer to every one of its players by name and individual circumstance?
Generalization is necessary to talk about games.
Perhaps not, but saying that the whole community is rotten is ignorant to say the least.
I would argue that it is less ignorant than ignoring its many flaws and the devestating effects it has had on the quality of gaming communities. But I invite you to log into WoW and try to have a more intelligent conversation, if you work one in between the Chuck Norris and "anal" chat.
I don't play WoW any more and I don't intend to until Cataclysm comes out. I've seen a Chuck Norris chat once in The Barrens and that was quite a bit of fun. I have only encountered an anal chat once but that was between my friend and I. Where do you live, in America? Because it may just be the Americans that make up for such a horrible community. I played on Darksorrow, Draenor and Kazzak (all EU since that's where I'm located) and if I asked a question in general chat I would usually get a whisper containing the answer. I just can't relate at all to the ''Oh Em Gee, the WoW community is so horrible, but I know SWTOR is going to be great because there's lightsabers'' because I haven't experienced a horrible community although I did have some trouble on Magtheridon when Nihilum played there. People seemed to be such idiots and so immature and it ended up with me having to migrate to another server. But now that I think about it, they weren't immature, I was because I called people elitist and I started all the naysaying in the general chat. It was my own mindset that Magtheridon was composed of idiots that led to people being somewhat hostile towards me. It was my own fault.
The amount of generalization in this thread almost makes me want to cry.
Perhaps when we talk about WoW, as an example, we should make 11.5 million seperate threads and refer to every one of its players by name and individual circumstance?
Generalization is necessary to talk about games.
Perhaps not, but saying that the whole community is rotten is ignorant to say the least.
I would argue that it is less ignorant than ignoring its many flaws and the devestating effects it has had on the quality of gaming communities. But I invite you to log into WoW and try to have a more intelligent conversation, if you work one in between the Chuck Norris and "anal" chat.
I don't play WoW any more and I don't intend to until Cataclysm comes out. I've seen a Chuck Norris chat once in The Barrens and that was quite a bit of fun. I have only encountered an anal chat once but that was between my friend and I. Where do you live, in America? Because it may just be the Americans that make up for such a horrible community. I played on Darksorrow, Draenor and Kazzak (all EU since that's where I'm located) and if I asked a question in general chat I would usually get a whisper containing the answer. I just can't relate at all to the ''Oh Em Gee, the WoW community is so horrible, but I know SWTOR is going to be great because there's lightsabers'' because I haven't experienced a horrible community although I did have some trouble on Magtheridon when Nihilum played there. People seemed to be such idiots and so immature and it ended up with me having to migrate to another server. But now that I think about it, they weren't immature, I was because I called people elitist and I started all the naysaying in the general chat. It was my own mindset that Magtheridon was composed of idiots that led to people being somewhat hostile towards me. It was my own fault.
You kind of lost me at the point where you said you started an "anal chat." That's not really helping your case in refuting the allegation that the WoW "community" is immature.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
You kind of lost me at the point where you said you started an "anal chat." That's not really helping your case in refuting the allegation that the WoW "community" is immature.
Wait. You're of the mindset that anything that has to do with sexuality is immature?
Playing MMO's today is a quite different thing then it once was. Looking at global chat or local chat the chat will quite often be dominated by people will the mentality of a 13 year old. It has also become a lot more "accepted" that you can act like a proper douchebag online by many gamers since there is nothing the other guys can do to stop you. IRL you would have been punched in the face for acting like many people do online. But the safety of being online and anonymous is for many people a perfect opportunity to bring out the worst in them self. The communities also often reflects this mentality that the forums will always be dominated by a certain few selected kings of the game. There are guilds who will use every way possible to claim other cheats or that they are the best of the best. It's kinda sad to see that online communities is often reduced to a pool of idiots all boasting about their e-peen.
The online communities will never be what it once was. That much is for sure.
The amount of generalization in this thread almost makes me want to cry.
Perhaps when we talk about WoW, as an example, we should make 11.5 million seperate threads and refer to every one of its players by name and individual circumstance?
Generalization is necessary to talk about games.
Perhaps not, but saying that the whole community is rotten is ignorant to say the least.
I would argue that it is less ignorant than ignoring its many flaws and the devestating effects it has had on the quality of gaming communities. But I invite you to log into WoW and try to have a more intelligent conversation, if you work one in between the Chuck Norris and "anal" chat.
I don't play WoW any more and I don't intend to until Cataclysm comes out. I've seen a Chuck Norris chat once in The Barrens and that was quite a bit of fun. I have only encountered an anal chat once but that was between my friend and I. Where do you live, in America? Because it may just be the Americans that make up for such a horrible community. I played on Darksorrow, Draenor and Kazzak (all EU since that's where I'm located) and if I asked a question in general chat I would usually get a whisper containing the answer. I just can't relate at all to the ''Oh Em Gee, the WoW community is so horrible, but I know SWTOR is going to be great because there's lightsabers'' because I haven't experienced a horrible community although I did have some trouble on Magtheridon when Nihilum played there. People seemed to be such idiots and so immature and it ended up with me having to migrate to another server. But now that I think about it, they weren't immature, I was because I called people elitist and I started all the naysaying in the general chat. It was my own mindset that Magtheridon was composed of idiots that led to people being somewhat hostile towards me. It was my own fault.
WoW is by far NOT the worst community out there. There are others since WoW that are far worse. WAR and AOC for example. WoW is just the game that started this trend towards solo-centric gameplay so it's brought up in these conversations quite often. I personally have found lots of good people playing WoW but just the fact that I had to 'find' them is the point we are trying to make. In older games you didn't have to go searching for the good apples among so many bad ones. There were bad apples in those games but the communities had a way of weeding them out. This is mainly because people needed each other to play almost every aspect of the game.
Imagine you went to a fast food drive in, where people are lined up in their cars to get their quick and easy meals. You step out of your car and say why don't we all go make a Thanksgiving type feast together. You there in the Camry, you can make the turkey. I'll make the ham. That lady in the SUV can cook the squash.
They would just laugh at you. It's not their mentality. They don't want to do things with other people. And they don't want to do anything that requires effort or time. They would jeer and honk their horns angrily that you even made the suggestion and not care how rude they were.
That's pretty much how it is trying to get WoW-type players to embrace "community." When they hear that word, it translates in their mind to "my satisfaction may be delayed and I won't be able to act selfishly and still get everything I want."
Do you even realize how lousy of an analogy that is? It actually disproves your point.
That 'let's make Thanksgiving dinner' guy is just a rude tinpot dictator who wants to form a 'community' on his terms. He obviously does not care that others have other plans or might not even celebrate Thanksgiving. Heck that guy in the Camry might be on his way to a poker game with his friends. Anyone who does not agree with his ideal is obviously anti-social and a jerk. That kind of viewpoint is so full hypocrisy that it makes the head spin.
Imagine you went to a fast food drive in, where people are lined up in their cars to get their quick and easy meals. You step out of your car and say why don't we all go make a Thanksgiving type feast together. You there in the Camry, you can make the turkey. I'll make the ham. That lady in the SUV can cook the squash.
They would just laugh at you. It's not their mentality. They don't want to do things with other people. And they don't want to do anything that requires effort or time. They would jeer and honk their horns angrily that you even made the suggestion and not care how rude they were.
That's pretty much how it is trying to get WoW-type players to embrace "community." When they hear that word, it translates in their mind to "my satisfaction may be delayed and I won't be able to act selfishly and still get everything I want."
Do you even realize how lousy of an analogy that is? It actually disproves your point.
That 'let's make Thanksgiving dinner' guy is just a rude tinpot dictator who wants to form a 'community' on his terms. He obviously does not care that others have other plans or might not even celebrate Thanksgiving. Heck that guy in the Camry might be on his way to a poker game with his friends. Anyone who does not agree with his ideal is obviously anti-social and a jerk. That kind of viewpoint is so full hypocrisy that it makes the head spin.
I thought it was funny, weather its actually a significant point of view is debatable. I dont think the ops logic is right in this thread though. If you want to have a good comunity in anything you do, if there isnt one there in the first place is make one. I played aion and I had my friends list filled up before I even left poeta, which sux by the way ncsoft should make there friends list larger then 100 players I think. My friends list was filled up but I didnt get a single invite from another player to add me to there list. If you want a sence of community you have to step up and start something other wise it wont happen. MAke webpages for your favorite mmos, chat, group, etc...this all adds to the sence of community that you so desperatly want.
I do know what the op is geting after though, but this is just a progression stage for mmos. When everyone talks about that sence of comunity that we once had, its because the internet was just starting, mmos were a new thing, and there probubly wasnt angery parents and older people bitching at how much fun there kids/grandsons were having in front of a computer all day long. Now its different, because there are literly hundreads of millions of people playing these types of games, and war wins over peace. The jews didnt get anything from the nazis because they let them kill a bunch of them. Just like kids/nephews dont get anything when parents/old people tell them to fuck them selves cause there ruining there life by playing a game 24/7. My point is any progression takes sacrafice, and the only reason theres not the sence of comunity is because mmos are in an progression stage. Once people relax about these things, then the community will rebound into something enjoyable like it once was, with games like merdian 59/everquest, underlight, anarcy online, ultima online. Those were the founding mmos that pushed what we have today.
For me, I just don't have the time to play as much as I used to. It's difficult to form social bonds with players when you only get to play a few hours a week. I usually just play with my wife or my brother-in-law. We will add other players to our group once in awhile, but it's just not the same as running with the same group of players for the majority of a 40 hour gaming week. I'm not complaining, it's been better for my health and my RL social life, but I do miss some of the online friendships I was able to make in the past.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
DAoC had the best community I've experienced in many years of gaming.
Everyone knew each other, and people were helpful not only within their own guilds, but also across guilds to accomplish server-wide achievements (such as slaying the Dragon or raiding a dungeon).
And the main reason for this was simply the way the game was set up:
1 - 50: Exping in groups was far quicker than soloing - you needed to have a good reputation to be able to level your character effectively together with realm mates
50 / end game: Realm warfare. You needed each other to capture relics, which would grant realm-wide bonuses, or to gain access to Darkness Falls, which was the best dungeon I have ever seen implemented/created in the MMOs I've played to date
Today, most modern MMOs encourage soloing, have heavy usage of instances, and provide instant cross-server PvP. All of this combined results in a disconnected and detached community of jackasses that decide that don't need each other and therefore make no effort at being part of a community.
I think this thread further proves that there needs to be a game that just caters to the old school mmo players. A game only for them. A game where the developers help guide the community. Eq was a good example of that. I am not saying forced grouping is the main goal, but there needs to be incentives for community. For an example, not all places are "solo" friendly environments. Most of the places are dangerous and you can't survive on your own. I hope I get my chance, because the ones who know about my game design and philosophy knows that my intentions is to focus on the old school mmo players only. I hope it happens for your sake and my sake.
I think this thread further proves that there needs to be a game that just caters to the old school mmo players. A game only for them. A game where the developers help guide the community. Eq was a good example of that. I am not saying forced grouping is the main goal, but there needs to be incentives for community. For an example, not all places are "solo" friendly environments. Most of the places are dangerous and you can't survive on your own. I hope I get my chance, because the ones who know about my game design and philosophy knows that my intentions is to focus on the old school mmo players only. I hope it happens for your sake and my sake.
I agree. I mean, I understand that there's a bigger market for solo-friendly games, but there's definitely still a market out there for an old school, group-centric game. Hell, Vanguard's original goal was to be that game, but it tanked because it was released way too early.
The potential is there for a 'hardcore' game to come along and absolutely own its niche with a loyal core of 300k-500k subscribers. Someone's just got to go out and make it.
Imagine you went to a fast food drive in, where people are lined up in their cars to get their quick and easy meals. You step out of your car and say why don't we all go make a Thanksgiving type feast together. You there in the Camry, you can make the turkey. I'll make the ham. That lady in the SUV can cook the squash.
They would just laugh at you. It's not their mentality. They don't want to do things with other people. And they don't want to do anything that requires effort or time. They would jeer and honk their horns angrily that you even made the suggestion and not care how rude they were.
That's pretty much how it is trying to get WoW-type players to embrace "community." When they hear that word, it translates in their mind to "my satisfaction may be delayed and I won't be able to act selfishly and still get everything I want."
Do you even realize how lousy of an analogy that is? It actually disproves your point.
That 'let's make Thanksgiving dinner' guy is just a rude tinpot dictator who wants to form a 'community' on his terms. He obviously does not care that others have other plans or might not even celebrate Thanksgiving. Heck that guy in the Camry might be on his way to a poker game with his friends. Anyone who does not agree with his ideal is obviously anti-social and a jerk. That kind of viewpoint is so full hypocrisy that it makes the head spin.
I thought it was funny, weather its actually a significant point of view is debatable. I dont think the ops logic is right in this thread though. If you want to have a good comunity in anything you do, if there isnt one there in the first place is make one. I played aion and I had my friends list filled up before I even left poeta, which sux by the way ncsoft should make there friends list larger then 100 players I think. My friends list was filled up but I didnt get a single invite from another player to add me to there list. If you want a sence of community you have to step up and start something other wise it wont happen. MAke webpages for your favorite mmos, chat, group, etc...this all adds to the sence of community that you so desperatly want.
I do know what the op is geting after though, but this is just a progression stage for mmos. When everyone talks about that sence of comunity that we once had, its because the internet was just starting, mmos were a new thing, and there probubly wasnt angery parents and older people bitching at how much fun there kids/grandsons were having in front of a computer all day long. Now its different, because there are literly hundreads of millions of people playing these types of games, and war wins over peace. The jews didnt get anything from the nazis because they let them kill a bunch of them. Just like kids/nephews dont get anything when parents/old people tell them to fuck them selves cause there ruining there life by playing a game 24/7. My point is any progression takes sacrafice, and the only reason theres not the sence of comunity is because mmos are in an progression stage. Once people relax about these things, then the community will rebound into something enjoyable like it once was, with games like merdian 59/everquest, underlight, anarcy online, ultima online. Those were the founding mmos that pushed what we have today.
My point is that the communities in the games have progressed into more focused groups centered on guilds. There is no longer a set-in-stone right way to play a MMORGP so people who want to play by one set of rules will gather together and those who want to play by a different set of rules will gather in another group. If those groups do not have much in common with each other they will not have a need to socialize for 'political' reasons and in fact their viewpoints are very likely to clash often (eg hardcore vs casual, raider vs grouper vs soloer).
A game like WoW has a ton of wonderful communities but they are amaller private communities rather than teh monolithic public communites that might have existed in the past.
I think this thread further proves that there needs to be a game that just caters to the old school mmo players. A game only for them. A game where the developers help guide the community. Eq was a good example of that. I am not saying forced grouping is the main goal, but there needs to be incentives for community. For an example, not all places are "solo" friendly environments. Most of the places are dangerous and you can't survive on your own. I hope I get my chance, because the ones who know about my game design and philosophy knows that my intentions is to focus on the old school mmo players only. I hope it happens for your sake and my sake.
I agree. I mean, I understand that there's a bigger market for solo-friendly games, but there's definitely still a market out there for an old school, group-centric game. Hell, Vanguard's original goal was to be that game, but it tanked because it was released way too early.
The potential is there for a 'hardcore' game to come along and absolutely own its niche with a loyal core of 300k-500k subscribers. Someone's just got to go out and make it.
I have been designing this since 2004. I have alot done. Now all I need is to break into the industry and work my way up. At least 80% of the people know about my ideas love it and believe it's the "one" for the old school gamer crowd if the mechanics and theory tests right. 300-500k subscribers would be way more than id ask for if my concept was a reality. 300-500k players on a single shard, seamless, no instanced world may get crowded. The world is big enough but can we design a system of servers to releave the stress without destroying the immersion of the seamless world? Hmm. I have an idea but not sure if it would work.
You're right. Vanguard was that "one" that would bring back the old school, the true mmorpg crowd. I do agree it was released to early but microsoft backing out really hurt them. Just imagine what Vanguard would be like if they had the funds from microsoft!
My point is that the communities in the games have progressed into more focused groups centered on guilds. There is no longer a set-in-stone right way to play a MMORGP so people who want to play by one set of rules will gather together and those who want to play by a different set of rules will gather in another group. If those groups do not have much in common with each other they will not have a need to socialize for 'political' reasons and in fact their viewpoints are very likely to clash often (eg hardcore vs casual, raider vs grouper vs soloer).
A game like WoW has a ton of wonderful communities but they are amaller private communities rather than teh monolithic public communites that might have existed in the past.
I comprehend both sides of the coin here. You're right in the sense that the new age mmo gaming is centered in a small clique of communities. Also, from my experiences in other mmos, one being EQ, you wasn't categorized as a pve or pvp player. The community didn't care. What they cared about was your server reputation and how good of a player you were. Also there were the sub communities via friends and guilds as well. However, usually those sub communities meld with the server community. Forced grouping did help that aspect alot but it still worked.
What this whole thread is about the monolithic community as a whole being dispersed. I for one, hate that but it's complementary off the design of the mmo as a whole. Does it focused off grouping or solo play? I still think there can be both with a happy medium, however grouping should be focused more with more incentives. It is an Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game? Right? The very core of the name of the genre should answer what way the comes should be focused on perhaps.
All I can do is restate that the monolithic communities of the past are of the past for now. They wil remerge again. It's just going to take the right game for it.
Well, here's the issue with online communities. If they're good, they stay put and do not suddenly jump to the next MMO. I think it is a very unreasonable expectation to have these communities suddenly migrating to every single game out there. There simply aren't that many cool people out there in fluxuating MMO traffic. Most people that are moving are likely malcontents, douchebags or other undesirables.
This appears to be a recurring thing I've noticed when playing any game online, I've played World of Warcraft and I've come to realise that people in this game are really rude, the things they say is like something from 4Chan (examples, Chuck Norris and Your Mom jokes, as well as the dreaded Barriens Chat), the game is more treated like an e-sport and there's the stupid Gearscore thing, I think WoW is a joke, it's even more bad when there's no-one to make friends with.
Now when I've played every other MMO game, the sad news is there is nobody to play with, it's like WoW is the only MMORPG that really gets played nowhere days and all the others are considered not worth the time playing. I really find it sad that everyone in the world keeps praising WoW as they fail to realise that even though it plays like gold but really it's a turd is disguise.
Recently I've not been playing any MMO of such, been on Left 4 Dead 2 and today I've realised how terrible the game is since there really is no community as I was kicked out of my own set up game and I did nothing wrong, all it is, is just a lobby game and that's what WoW has become as well.
Is it true that every MMORPG does suck and the old days of Online Communities that we saw in EQ1 are now long gone?
Basing your views of online communities off your own personal experiences is not a valid way of judging an entire community. If that was the case then I would be justified in saying that UO, EQ and AC communities were terrible because I didn't experience them the way you did.
Communities are a red herring for MMOs. It's a cheap way for people to find fault in games that they themselves have a hard time connecting with others in. Community scores need a serious update in the way they are graded:
Does a game have a huge friend's list available?
Can you add/whisper/tell other players by clicking their names?
Are there options to interact with others beyond dueling? i.e. music, housing, non-combat crafting
Are there events that effect players as a community? i.e. invasion events, server events
Are there faction based goals that actually involve every aspect of the leveling stages?
Is PvP encouraged beyond personal glory?
Are players encouraged to group up even when it's not required?
These are just a few things that can make or break how cohesive a community is. Plus you have to have players that seek out interaction with others without feeling like they have to commit to them. I would love to see dungeons that reward groups based off time spent together and not only if a area is completely finished.
How about groups that add abilities to survive longer without relying on if you have enough healers, tanks or dpsers. What if you didn't have to worry about the holy trinity when putting together a party and you received bonuses to health, mana and your skills automatically as you add more players. Don't you think that players would invite more people or would feel less pressure to invite others even if they wouldn't otherwise?
But even with all those options available to players to "encourage" playing nice. Some will always find a way to lay blame on others rather than finding fault in themselves. It's like going into a huge party, closing your eyes and randomly asking 5 people if they'd like to hang out with you. Sometimes you need to sit back and do a little observing before you head in blindly thinking everyone likes you just because we're all at the same party.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
No, it's not a thing of the past, what people have to realize is that there's no longer a single community, but multiple communities in every game. At one time, games appealed to a very narrow niche, everyone was pretty much after the same thing so there was a single community that everyone belonged to. Now, there are multiple groups of people, each of whom want something different and each of whom set up a community within the game. You just have to find the one that you want to belong to.
No. They have simply changed. Not into anything I'm keen on but they're still there all the same.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Imagine you went to a fast food drive in, where people are lined up in their cars to get their quick and easy meals. You step out of your car and say why don't we all go make a Thanksgiving type feast together. You there in the Camry, you can make the turkey. I'll make the ham. That lady in the SUV can cook the squash.
They would just laugh at you. It's not their mentality. They don't want to do things with other people. And they don't want to do anything that requires effort or time. They would jeer and honk their horns angrily that you even made the suggestion and not care how rude they were.
That's pretty much how it is trying to get WoW-type players to embrace "community." When they hear that word, it translates in their mind to "my satisfaction may be delayed and I won't be able to act selfishly and still get everything I want."
Do you even realize how lousy of an analogy that is? It actually disproves your point.
That 'let's make Thanksgiving dinner' guy is just a rude tinpot dictator who wants to form a 'community' on his terms. He obviously does not care that others have other plans or might not even celebrate Thanksgiving. Heck that guy in the Camry might be on his way to a poker game with his friends. Anyone who does not agree with his ideal is obviously anti-social and a jerk. That kind of viewpoint is so full hypocrisy that it makes the head spin.
So people who want to gather together with others and work on group goals for their mutual benefit are "tinpot dictators." Oh yeah, I'm way off base here lol.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I think that games, game communities (actually there are two of them that are somewhat different from each other: game forum community and in-game community), and in-game socialization are different from their RL analogues, historical events and figures. Why are you playing MMOs? To “socialize”? I don’t think so. If a “normal” person needs a company what he/she does? Correct, he/she calls a friend, visits a club, a bar, a sport center, etc. Internet chats and MMO games is a poor surrogate ersatz of natural human life relations. It is not serious to expect much from online games in this respect. PvP games (the main goal/”fun” is to “KILL” another person, not just a “neutral” monster) by definition cannot create a leading “community” other than a gang (gankers, griefers).
“Sometimes I think a lot of the "younger" mmo players these days only play games just so they CAN bitch and piss off people.” Wrender
“In the early days of the Internet, the Internet was populated by early adopter types, eg nerds. Today the Internet is populated by everyone and their grandmothers, literally. Eight year olds have broad band connections in their bedrooms.” Uquipu.
I agree with these statements. Anonymity has also significant contribution. I do not think that MMO games (game mechanics) changed dramatically during last years but players definitely did. More kids (I am not talking solely about age) are playing (more available internet connection and cheaper computers), aggressive game play, no responsibility for words and actions are changing them a lot.
How am I searching a guild (I have no RL friends to play together)? I am reading forums, checking are guild members sharing similar views as myself via reading their posts, could these pople be interesting for me and I for them. I have no time and opportunity to do that in a game: I am typing too slow, language and age barriers, etc. When you are on P2P on a monthly basis and have very limited free time to play you have no luxury to search for a good company while playing. Groupers are always accusing soloers for being not social. Sorry, I don’t want to “socialize” with a gang or just with anybody.
Is it necessary/worthwhile to search for solutions of making MMOs more human, civilized? Yes, but we are just at the beginning. I am a strong supporter of the idea of MMO games diversification on play style, subgenre, graphics, etc. All-in-one (“melting pot”) has no sense, it is chaos, anarchy, virtual jungles. Community, socialization expect organization, you cannot force efficiently so different freely active individuals to be happy together. Let griefers grief alone!
Comments
Imagine you went to a fast food drive in, where people are lined up in their cars to get their quick and easy meals. You step out of your car and say why don't we all go make a Thanksgiving type feast together. You there in the Camry, you can make the turkey. I'll make the ham. That lady in the SUV can cook the squash.
They would just laugh at you. It's not their mentality. They don't want to do things with other people. And they don't want to do anything that requires effort or time. They would jeer and honk their horns angrily that you even made the suggestion and not care how rude they were.
That's pretty much how it is trying to get WoW-type players to embrace "community." When they hear that word, it translates in their mind to "my satisfaction may be delayed and I won't be able to act selfishly and still get everything I want."
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
The amount of generalization in this thread almost makes me want to cry.
Eleanor Rigby.
Perhaps when we talk about WoW, as an example, we should make 11.5 million seperate threads and refer to every one of its players by name and individual circumstance?
Generalization is necessary to talk about games.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Perhaps not, but saying that the whole community is rotten is ignorant to say the least.
Eleanor Rigby.
I would argue that it is less ignorant than ignoring its many flaws and the devestating effects it has had on the quality of gaming communities. But I invite you to log into WoW and try to have a more intelligent conversation, if you work one in between the Chuck Norris and "anal" chat.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I don't play WoW any more and I don't intend to until Cataclysm comes out. I've seen a Chuck Norris chat once in The Barrens and that was quite a bit of fun. I have only encountered an anal chat once but that was between my friend and I. Where do you live, in America? Because it may just be the Americans that make up for such a horrible community. I played on Darksorrow, Draenor and Kazzak (all EU since that's where I'm located) and if I asked a question in general chat I would usually get a whisper containing the answer. I just can't relate at all to the ''Oh Em Gee, the WoW community is so horrible, but I know SWTOR is going to be great because there's lightsabers'' because I haven't experienced a horrible community although I did have some trouble on Magtheridon when Nihilum played there. People seemed to be such idiots and so immature and it ended up with me having to migrate to another server. But now that I think about it, they weren't immature, I was because I called people elitist and I started all the naysaying in the general chat. It was my own mindset that Magtheridon was composed of idiots that led to people being somewhat hostile towards me. It was my own fault.
Eleanor Rigby.
You kind of lost me at the point where you said you started an "anal chat." That's not really helping your case in refuting the allegation that the WoW "community" is immature.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Wait. You're of the mindset that anything that has to do with sexuality is immature?
Eleanor Rigby.
Playing MMO's today is a quite different thing then it once was. Looking at global chat or local chat the chat will quite often be dominated by people will the mentality of a 13 year old. It has also become a lot more "accepted" that you can act like a proper douchebag online by many gamers since there is nothing the other guys can do to stop you. IRL you would have been punched in the face for acting like many people do online. But the safety of being online and anonymous is for many people a perfect opportunity to bring out the worst in them self. The communities also often reflects this mentality that the forums will always be dominated by a certain few selected kings of the game. There are guilds who will use every way possible to claim other cheats or that they are the best of the best. It's kinda sad to see that online communities is often reduced to a pool of idiots all boasting about their e-peen.
The online communities will never be what it once was. That much is for sure.
WoW is by far NOT the worst community out there. There are others since WoW that are far worse. WAR and AOC for example. WoW is just the game that started this trend towards solo-centric gameplay so it's brought up in these conversations quite often. I personally have found lots of good people playing WoW but just the fact that I had to 'find' them is the point we are trying to make. In older games you didn't have to go searching for the good apples among so many bad ones. There were bad apples in those games but the communities had a way of weeding them out. This is mainly because people needed each other to play almost every aspect of the game.
Bren
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Do you even realize how lousy of an analogy that is? It actually disproves your point.
That 'let's make Thanksgiving dinner' guy is just a rude tinpot dictator who wants to form a 'community' on his terms. He obviously does not care that others have other plans or might not even celebrate Thanksgiving. Heck that guy in the Camry might be on his way to a poker game with his friends. Anyone who does not agree with his ideal is obviously anti-social and a jerk. That kind of viewpoint is so full hypocrisy that it makes the head spin.
I thought it was funny, weather its actually a significant point of view is debatable. I dont think the ops logic is right in this thread though. If you want to have a good comunity in anything you do, if there isnt one there in the first place is make one. I played aion and I had my friends list filled up before I even left poeta, which sux by the way ncsoft should make there friends list larger then 100 players I think. My friends list was filled up but I didnt get a single invite from another player to add me to there list. If you want a sence of community you have to step up and start something other wise it wont happen. MAke webpages for your favorite mmos, chat, group, etc...this all adds to the sence of community that you so desperatly want.
I do know what the op is geting after though, but this is just a progression stage for mmos. When everyone talks about that sence of comunity that we once had, its because the internet was just starting, mmos were a new thing, and there probubly wasnt angery parents and older people bitching at how much fun there kids/grandsons were having in front of a computer all day long. Now its different, because there are literly hundreads of millions of people playing these types of games, and war wins over peace. The jews didnt get anything from the nazis because they let them kill a bunch of them. Just like kids/nephews dont get anything when parents/old people tell them to fuck them selves cause there ruining there life by playing a game 24/7. My point is any progression takes sacrafice, and the only reason theres not the sence of comunity is because mmos are in an progression stage. Once people relax about these things, then the community will rebound into something enjoyable like it once was, with games like merdian 59/everquest, underlight, anarcy online, ultima online. Those were the founding mmos that pushed what we have today.
For me, I just don't have the time to play as much as I used to. It's difficult to form social bonds with players when you only get to play a few hours a week. I usually just play with my wife or my brother-in-law. We will add other players to our group once in awhile, but it's just not the same as running with the same group of players for the majority of a 40 hour gaming week. I'm not complaining, it's been better for my health and my RL social life, but I do miss some of the online friendships I was able to make in the past.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
DAoC had the best community I've experienced in many years of gaming.
Everyone knew each other, and people were helpful not only within their own guilds, but also across guilds to accomplish server-wide achievements (such as slaying the Dragon or raiding a dungeon).
And the main reason for this was simply the way the game was set up:
1 - 50: Exping in groups was far quicker than soloing - you needed to have a good reputation to be able to level your character effectively together with realm mates
50 / end game: Realm warfare. You needed each other to capture relics, which would grant realm-wide bonuses, or to gain access to Darkness Falls, which was the best dungeon I have ever seen implemented/created in the MMOs I've played to date
Today, most modern MMOs encourage soloing, have heavy usage of instances, and provide instant cross-server PvP. All of this combined results in a disconnected and detached community of jackasses that decide that don't need each other and therefore make no effort at being part of a community.
I think this thread further proves that there needs to be a game that just caters to the old school mmo players. A game only for them. A game where the developers help guide the community. Eq was a good example of that. I am not saying forced grouping is the main goal, but there needs to be incentives for community. For an example, not all places are "solo" friendly environments. Most of the places are dangerous and you can't survive on your own. I hope I get my chance, because the ones who know about my game design and philosophy knows that my intentions is to focus on the old school mmo players only. I hope it happens for your sake and my sake.
I agree. I mean, I understand that there's a bigger market for solo-friendly games, but there's definitely still a market out there for an old school, group-centric game. Hell, Vanguard's original goal was to be that game, but it tanked because it was released way too early.
The potential is there for a 'hardcore' game to come along and absolutely own its niche with a loyal core of 300k-500k subscribers. Someone's just got to go out and make it.
Virtual Reality
My point is that the communities in the games have progressed into more focused groups centered on guilds. There is no longer a set-in-stone right way to play a MMORGP so people who want to play by one set of rules will gather together and those who want to play by a different set of rules will gather in another group. If those groups do not have much in common with each other they will not have a need to socialize for 'political' reasons and in fact their viewpoints are very likely to clash often (eg hardcore vs casual, raider vs grouper vs soloer).
A game like WoW has a ton of wonderful communities but they are amaller private communities rather than teh monolithic public communites that might have existed in the past.
I have been designing this since 2004. I have alot done. Now all I need is to break into the industry and work my way up. At least 80% of the people know about my ideas love it and believe it's the "one" for the old school gamer crowd if the mechanics and theory tests right. 300-500k subscribers would be way more than id ask for if my concept was a reality. 300-500k players on a single shard, seamless, no instanced world may get crowded. The world is big enough but can we design a system of servers to releave the stress without destroying the immersion of the seamless world? Hmm. I have an idea but not sure if it would work.
You're right. Vanguard was that "one" that would bring back the old school, the true mmorpg crowd. I do agree it was released to early but microsoft backing out really hurt them. Just imagine what Vanguard would be like if they had the funds from microsoft!
I comprehend both sides of the coin here. You're right in the sense that the new age mmo gaming is centered in a small clique of communities. Also, from my experiences in other mmos, one being EQ, you wasn't categorized as a pve or pvp player. The community didn't care. What they cared about was your server reputation and how good of a player you were. Also there were the sub communities via friends and guilds as well. However, usually those sub communities meld with the server community. Forced grouping did help that aspect alot but it still worked.
What this whole thread is about the monolithic community as a whole being dispersed. I for one, hate that but it's complementary off the design of the mmo as a whole. Does it focused off grouping or solo play? I still think there can be both with a happy medium, however grouping should be focused more with more incentives. It is an Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game? Right? The very core of the name of the genre should answer what way the comes should be focused on perhaps.
All I can do is restate that the monolithic communities of the past are of the past for now. They wil remerge again. It's just going to take the right game for it.
Well, here's the issue with online communities. If they're good, they stay put and do not suddenly jump to the next MMO. I think it is a very unreasonable expectation to have these communities suddenly migrating to every single game out there. There simply aren't that many cool people out there in fluxuating MMO traffic. Most people that are moving are likely malcontents, douchebags or other undesirables.
Basing your views of online communities off your own personal experiences is not a valid way of judging an entire community. If that was the case then I would be justified in saying that UO, EQ and AC communities were terrible because I didn't experience them the way you did.
Communities are a red herring for MMOs. It's a cheap way for people to find fault in games that they themselves have a hard time connecting with others in. Community scores need a serious update in the way they are graded:
Does a game have a huge friend's list available?
Can you add/whisper/tell other players by clicking their names?
Are there options to interact with others beyond dueling? i.e. music, housing, non-combat crafting
Are there events that effect players as a community? i.e. invasion events, server events
Are there faction based goals that actually involve every aspect of the leveling stages?
Is PvP encouraged beyond personal glory?
Are players encouraged to group up even when it's not required?
These are just a few things that can make or break how cohesive a community is. Plus you have to have players that seek out interaction with others without feeling like they have to commit to them. I would love to see dungeons that reward groups based off time spent together and not only if a area is completely finished.
How about groups that add abilities to survive longer without relying on if you have enough healers, tanks or dpsers. What if you didn't have to worry about the holy trinity when putting together a party and you received bonuses to health, mana and your skills automatically as you add more players. Don't you think that players would invite more people or would feel less pressure to invite others even if they wouldn't otherwise?
But even with all those options available to players to "encourage" playing nice. Some will always find a way to lay blame on others rather than finding fault in themselves. It's like going into a huge party, closing your eyes and randomly asking 5 people if they'd like to hang out with you. Sometimes you need to sit back and do a little observing before you head in blindly thinking everyone likes you just because we're all at the same party.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
No, it's not a thing of the past, what people have to realize is that there's no longer a single community, but multiple communities in every game. At one time, games appealed to a very narrow niche, everyone was pretty much after the same thing so there was a single community that everyone belonged to. Now, there are multiple groups of people, each of whom want something different and each of whom set up a community within the game. You just have to find the one that you want to belong to.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
No. They have simply changed. Not into anything I'm keen on but they're still there all the same.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
So people who want to gather together with others and work on group goals for their mutual benefit are "tinpot dictators." Oh yeah, I'm way off base here lol.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I think that games, game communities (actually there are two of them that are somewhat different from each other: game forum community and in-game community), and in-game socialization are different from their RL analogues, historical events and figures. Why are you playing MMOs? To “socialize”? I don’t think so. If a “normal” person needs a company what he/she does? Correct, he/she calls a friend, visits a club, a bar, a sport center, etc. Internet chats and MMO games is a poor surrogate ersatz of natural human life relations. It is not serious to expect much from online games in this respect. PvP games (the main goal/”fun” is to “KILL” another person, not just a “neutral” monster) by definition cannot create a leading “community” other than a gang (gankers, griefers).
“Sometimes I think a lot of the "younger" mmo players these days only play games just so they CAN bitch and piss off people.” Wrender
“In the early days of the Internet, the Internet was populated by early adopter types, eg nerds. Today the Internet is populated by everyone and their grandmothers, literally. Eight year olds have broad band connections in their bedrooms.” Uquipu.
I agree with these statements. Anonymity has also significant contribution. I do not think that MMO games (game mechanics) changed dramatically during last years but players definitely did. More kids (I am not talking solely about age) are playing (more available internet connection and cheaper computers), aggressive game play, no responsibility for words and actions are changing them a lot.
How am I searching a guild (I have no RL friends to play together)? I am reading forums, checking are guild members sharing similar views as myself via reading their posts, could these pople be interesting for me and I for them. I have no time and opportunity to do that in a game: I am typing too slow, language and age barriers, etc. When you are on P2P on a monthly basis and have very limited free time to play you have no luxury to search for a good company while playing. Groupers are always accusing soloers for being not social. Sorry, I don’t want to “socialize” with a gang or just with anybody.
Is it necessary/worthwhile to search for solutions of making MMOs more human, civilized? Yes, but we are just at the beginning. I am a strong supporter of the idea of MMO games diversification on play style, subgenre, graphics, etc. All-in-one (“melting pot”) has no sense, it is chaos, anarchy, virtual jungles. Community, socialization expect organization, you cannot force efficiently so different freely active individuals to be happy together. Let griefers grief alone!