Originally posted by Palebane That's why you wait for the reviews.
You mean reviews by those journalists that are bribed in more or less hidden form to write positive reviews? Or those reviews written by fanbois? Or those reviews on the forums written by players that are being rmoved from those forums because forum owners are funded from that game publishers adds?
I am picking on Mortal Online specifically in this article because this is the MMO that really popularized the new fight against the idea that once players pre-ordered, they were at the mercy of the developer no matter how many times/years the game was delayed despite accepting orders, and how many features ended up not being in the game, or being broken, at launch. Players issued charge-backs in large numbers on Mortal Online, so much so that many third party forums relating to MMOs/Mortal Online were regularly filled with information, accounts and advocacy for players to perform said charge-backs
I read that but disagree with what he said myself. Pre orders could always be retracted before launch with other games (atleast so I believe), SV wasn't scamming anyone when they made their deal. It was made clear you buy the "pre-order" and you paid the full box price and got into the beta and it was a non refundable "pre-order
You can have your own opinion. But luckily there are rules in place that regulate commerce. When a company behaves wrongly, consumers have the right to chargeback and get their money back. I did this, and as the article says, so did MANY others. It's a valid and valuable tool in the fight against shovelware and protects consumers from having their purchase unilaterally converted into an open-ended loan.
Hopefully future companies will take note of this and maybe we can reverse the trend and actually start to expect (gasp!) games to be released in a reasonable state and within a reasonable time. As the article says.. companies better be wary of counting on box sales (pre-orders) to fund development as people are starting to revolt!
I agree there are rules to regulate commerce and help protect the consumer, however there are many consumers that abuse these laws and regulations to their own benefit.
For example someone purchases a piece of software to beta test it, the software has no garunteed release date just a proposed one. The consumer discovers they don't like the software or becomes disgruntled because it didn't release when he/she hoped it would. So the consumer decides they want to welch on the deal and do a charge back telling their credit card company it was because they didn't recieve the product advertised or whatever.
That would be a false claim not only does that consumer break the rules of the deal they made with the software company they abuse the consumer protection laws meant to protect others. This kind of person is a free loader and will only make it harder for those genuine consumers to get protection in the future from real scams. In short we all get punished because some people get sour grapes after entering a deal and decide to welch on it.
But as you say that's just my opinion.
I have to agree with Agricola on this one. I would consider myself shortsighted if I thought I'd be getting a completely playable game when I'm told it is in beta or that it would come out on time, just based on reading ANY forum about MMO betas. I paid for MO, and really didn't play it much, but that was my choice. I figured I'll play it eventually and just wanted to check it out on that particular evening.
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
The way this post was made it almost sounded like the article they referrenced they felt was written by an expert on the subject or by a highly respected news source. Maybe it's just me, but I don't take any article on sites like that as any more meaningful then someone making a post here. It is just one random, unimportant person's opinion on a subject.
The way this post was made it almost sounded like the article they referrenced they felt was written by an expert on the subject or by a highly respected news source. Maybe it's just me, but I don't take any article on sites like that as any more meaningful then someone making a post here. It is just one random, unimportant person's opinion on a subject.
Very true. It's just another blog from another nameless, faceless blogger - not from any really reputable source.
So a typo in the title of another article totally invalidates everything on the website. Particularly when it's proven to be a typo by having the CORRECT month listed in the actual text... Uh-huh...
Anyhow. If you read his acrticle the point of it was that customers are fed up with MMO companies and are using chargebacks as an effective way to combat what they perceive as substandard products and that companies in the future will have to be careful about following the SV model of using pre-order sales to fund development.
This is indisputable. You can argue that the product may or may not be substandard, but there is no argument to be made about whether or not people are doing this.
The whole discussion begins and ends with StartVault shipping out boxed copies of the game in January with useless DVDs and saying that they would send out real working copies at lauch. WTF!?!? The only reason they did that was to try and stave off the avalanche of complaints and chargebacks they were getting. So you cannot argue that chargebacks have not already influenced the MMO world and will continue to do so.
PS: Have they sent out the new DVDs that actually work yet? It is 3 weeks AFTER release....
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I agree with most of his opinions and when a game has promised features and they don't turn up at launch then I can see a justification for a charge back. Why he'd pick out MO is a bit unclear since there was a long open beta where you could try it out for free and they have actually provided at launch the features they said would be there. Sure not alot of features but still they're there.
If I was to single out a game I'd say AoC, a whole host of features were promised and weren't delivered. Even features listed on the box were not in game! MO is quite the opposite, little hype with only a few features but they were all there at launch.
I also agree with this part of the article too,
" A charge back is not to be used as an excuse to bum-rush your way into a game without doing any research on it, and is not for buyer’s remorse. It is strictly for cases where what you are promised is not what is delivered. In the case where it is found that you issued an illegal charge back, you can be sued for wire-fraud or theft of merchandise, among other charges, depending on where you live."
I think everyone who does this needs to read that first, I believe many are looking for a free trial and are therefore nothing but scammers themselves.
The headline reads July 9th as the release. The text (correctly) gives June 9th.
Yeah, Edward R. Murrow he ain't.
Nameless? Faceless?
I know this proves nothing but....
There are many ways you can contact me, foremost through the comment system that requires no registration nor personal information. I also decided to reveal a few games you can contact me through.
Several MMO's have a great policy towards charge backs.
If you submit a charge back, they permaban your account. I think that's a great system.
I understand charge backs can be legit and used in EXTREME situations, but there are people like that rimcoy whatever dude who just uses them to get around rules for a free trial.
It's a shame more companies don't prosecute for such fraud.
If you contact your CC you will get a chargeback, takes about 10 minutes of your time. Great article, thanks for the link.
"Remember: A charge back is not to be used as an excuse to bum-rush your way into a game without doing any research on it, and is not for buyer’s remorse. It is strictly for cases where what you are promised is not what is delivered. In the case where it is found that you issued an illegal charge back, you can be sued for wire-fraud or theft of merchandise, among other charges, depending on where you live."
I understand charge backs can be legit and used in EXTREME situations, but there are people like that rimcoy whatever dude who just uses them to get around rules for a free trial.
It's a shame more companies don't prosecute for such fraud.
What are you talking about? What rules did I break to get a free trial?
Oh and presuming that the Omali that is "21 year old Male from Orchard Park, NY, United States" is the same as the Omali that "has invested his questionably unhealthy passion for the MMO genre and desire to escape the Buffalo cold weather into MMO Fallout. Currently majoring in Communication and Media Arts, to further major in broadcasting", let me quote the author.
"Given that you're now in the process of your second fraudulent charge back, I can't say I'm surprised. What I am surprised at is that Star Vault hasn't set a block on your name/address/card number and notified your bank."
Oh and presuming that the Omali that is "21 year old Male from Orchard Park, NY, United States" is the same as the Omali that "has invested his questionably unhealthy passion for the MMO genre and desire to escape the Buffalo cold weather into MMO Fallout. Currently majoring in Communication and Media Arts, to further major in broadcasting", let me quote the author.
"Given that you're now in the process of your second fraudulent charge back, I can't say I'm surprised. What I am surprised at is that Star Vault hasn't set a block on your name/address/card number and notified your bank."
Selling a broken and incomplete game is not an excuse to get a refund?
Not if you were complaining about how broken and incomplete the game was BEFORE you bought it
TWICE! Personally, I can't afford mortal right now so I'm not going to buy it. Next week, however, I will buy it. If it's not up to par for my standards after the first month I simply will not resub until I feel the updates will satisfy.
What irritates me about the entire situation is that the initial charge is no different than buying a console game from a game store (probably cheaper) and then playing the shit out of it for 3 days before your completely done with it..
The point of the article this thread was created to discuss is NOT whether or not one person charging back the game twice in 6 months time is ethical.
The point of the article was that people are fed up with companies selling halfbaked games and unilaterally deciding to hold onto your money for an indefinate period of time. Chargebacks HAVE and will continue to effect the future of MMOs.
Once again.. the proof of this is the way SV shipped out their "Boxed Copies" of the game in January. The box was empty except for a single unuseable disc. SV said it was just a placeholder and the real disc would be sent out at launch. I believe the ONLY reason SV did this is because they were getting an avalanche of complaints and this let them try to tell card companies that they shipped "something". If someone has another explanation that makes sense I would love to hear it.
Hopefully the next wave of companies/games LEARNS from this.. maybe they learn that we, the consumer have had enough of them trying to lower the bar of each launch.. progressively spiraling lower and lower quality products. Too long they have believe that we will just meekly accept what they choose to shovel our way.
As the article says... the launch of Mortal was a watershed moment and "The Era of Riding Initial Sales is Over"
PS: Has there been any update from SV about the discs? Its now 3 weeks AFTER release and people who bought the boxed copy still haven't received the promised working/updated discs.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
PS: Has there been any update from SV about the discs? Its now 3 months AFTER release and people who bought the boxed copy still haven't received the promised working/updated discs.
PS: Has there been any update from SV about the discs? Its now 3 months AFTER release and people who bought the boxed copy still haven't received the promised working/updated discs.
3 weeks right?
Fixed!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Actually, what I anticipate happening in the near future is that credit card companies are going to stop permitting charge backs for virtual goods and software purchases based on the non delivery of in game features.
(assuming it is legal for them to do so)
I think they can require proof of your claim. It's just too much of a PITA for them to deal with the paperwork. But if it becomes an issue, they will deal with it. If lawmakers somehow get involved with possible CC fraud, then they might have to eat the costs.
The point of the article this thread was created to discuss is NOT whether or not one person charging back the game twice in 6 months time is ethical.True. Just trying to point out that the author is not encouraging chargebacks and specifcally says "A charge back is not to be used as an excuse to bum-rush your way into a game without doing any research on it, and is not for buyer’s remorse. "
Once again.. the proof of this is the way SV shipped out their "Boxed Copies" of the game in January. The box was empty except for a single unuseable disc. SV said it was just a placeholder and the real disc would be sent out at launch. Fair point. I believe the ONLY reason SV did this is because they were getting an avalanche of complaints and this let them try to tell card companies that they shipped "something". If someone has another explanation that makes sense I would love to hear it. Mats pointed out several months beforehand that they were not making any money at all from having physical products in addition to digital downloads. They outsources the production of the boxes and as such had limited control over the production.
Hopefully the next wave of companies/games LEARNS from this.. maybe they learn that we, the consumer have had enough of them trying to lower the bar of each launch.. progressively spiraling lower and lower quality products. Too long they have believe that we will just meekly accept what they choose to shovel our way. It seems this meme is catching on. Starvault is trying to produce a quality product, not "trying to lower the bar of each launch" and the MMO industry as a whole is not "progressively spiraling lower and lower quality products"
As the article says... the launch of Mortal was a watershed moment and "The Era of Riding Initial Sales is Over" The same could apply to STO andlifetime subs, and to initial sales of WAR and AoC. Omali happens to follow this forum, so he knows more about Mortal/
PS: Has there been any update from SV about the discs? Its now 3 months AFTER release and people who bought the boxed copy still haven't received the promised working/updated discs. I think you mean 3 weeks
AoC is now one of the best MMO's out there with a ton of content. The game was prematurely released by a person who is no longer with them and I hope was forced to resign or fired due to it. The challenges and time it takes to make an MMO is not easy and I don't expect it to be perfect at first. Give them feedback about the issues and usually they will fix the issues with future updates and content. Now if everbody didn't jump ship on AoC and stuck with it the content and fixes would have come faster due to the income coming in to actually pay for further fixes and content.
If the idea is there and you enjoy what is offered give them time to fix the issues. If you are just mad because they didn't include a feature yet then you need to think about REAL Life here. Everything takes time and money and sometimes we even promise things in our real life that we can't always achieve but had the intention to in the first place.
Now when it comes to single player games I do expect those to have everything promised as they weren't meant to be updated in the future and should have been fully beta tested. But these usually don't have the scope of MMO's. Even if you've noticed as of lately even Single Player games that was meant to include Multiplayer was added later via a download as in Red Dead Redemption.
Since someone else bumped this thread already, I'd like to point out the one thing being missed in this whole discussion. This essay was NOT about chargebacks, it was about MMOs trying to "open big" and make alot of money off of initial sales. Mortal Online and chargebacks were given as an example, most likely because people demanding chargebacks are more vocal than people who just leave a game after a couple months, and because the author follows THIS forum.
The article could just as easily been about the push for lifetime subscription for STO and the disappointment some people had that sections of the game were underdeveloped / feel rushed (e.g. PVE gameplay for the Klingon faction) or the fact that LOTRO is shifting to micro-transactions now that the lifetime subscribers have gotten there money's worth.
Comments
You mean reviews by those journalists that are bribed in more or less hidden form to write positive reviews? Or those reviews written by fanbois? Or those reviews on the forums written by players that are being rmoved from those forums because forum owners are funded from that game publishers adds?
http://www.teraonline.info.pl Polski Poradnik Gry Tera Online
I have to agree with Agricola on this one. I would consider myself shortsighted if I thought I'd be getting a completely playable game when I'm told it is in beta or that it would come out on time, just based on reading ANY forum about MMO betas. I paid for MO, and really didn't play it much, but that was my choice. I figured I'll play it eventually and just wanted to check it out on that particular evening.
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
The way this post was made it almost sounded like the article they referrenced they felt was written by an expert on the subject or by a highly respected news source. Maybe it's just me, but I don't take any article on sites like that as any more meaningful then someone making a post here. It is just one random, unimportant person's opinion on a subject.
Submitted to Digg -- digg it up folks.
http://digg.com/pc_games/The_Era_Of_Riding_Initial_Sales_Is_Over
Very true. It's just another blog from another nameless, faceless blogger - not from any really reputable source.
Case in point:
From the same source:
http://mmofallout.com/2010/05/15/mortal-online-july-9th-we-swear/
The headline reads July 9th as the release. The text (correctly) gives June 9th.
Yeah, Edward R. Murrow he ain't.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
So a typo in the title of another article totally invalidates everything on the website. Particularly when it's proven to be a typo by having the CORRECT month listed in the actual text... Uh-huh...
Anyhow. If you read his acrticle the point of it was that customers are fed up with MMO companies and are using chargebacks as an effective way to combat what they perceive as substandard products and that companies in the future will have to be careful about following the SV model of using pre-order sales to fund development.
This is indisputable. You can argue that the product may or may not be substandard, but there is no argument to be made about whether or not people are doing this.
The whole discussion begins and ends with StartVault shipping out boxed copies of the game in January with useless DVDs and saying that they would send out real working copies at lauch. WTF!?!? The only reason they did that was to try and stave off the avalanche of complaints and chargebacks they were getting. So you cannot argue that chargebacks have not already influenced the MMO world and will continue to do so.
PS: Have they sent out the new DVDs that actually work yet? It is 3 weeks AFTER release....
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Anyone dumb enough to pay for a beta gets what they deserve.
Tecmo Bowl.
Didn't they say thievery would be in at launch?
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
Nameless? Faceless?
I know this proves nothing but....
There are many ways you can contact me, foremost through the comment system that requires no registration nor personal information. I also decided to reveal a few games you can contact me through.
Email: realtimestudios[at]gmail[dot]com
Alganon: Omali
Champions Online: @Omali
Mortal Online: Jomali
Runescape: mtomali
http://mmofallout.com/contact/
http://www.mmorpg.com/profile.cfm/username/Omali
If you contact your CC you will get a chargeback, takes about 10 minutes of your time. Great article, thanks for the link.
This.
Total MMOs played: 274|Enjoyed: 9. >:|
Several MMO's have a great policy towards charge backs.
If you submit a charge back, they permaban your account. I think that's a great system.
I understand charge backs can be legit and used in EXTREME situations, but there are people like that rimcoy whatever dude who just uses them to get around rules for a free trial.
It's a shame more companies don't prosecute for such fraud.
"Remember: A charge back is not to be used as an excuse to bum-rush your way into a game without doing any research on it, and is not for buyer’s remorse. It is strictly for cases where what you are promised is not what is delivered. In the case where it is found that you issued an illegal charge back, you can be sued for wire-fraud or theft of merchandise, among other charges, depending on where you live."
What are you talking about? What rules did I break to get a free trial?
Oh and presuming that the Omali that is "21 year old Male from Orchard Park, NY, United States" is the same as the Omali that "has invested his questionably unhealthy passion for the MMO genre and desire to escape the Buffalo cold weather into MMO Fallout. Currently majoring in Communication and Media Arts, to further major in broadcasting", let me quote the author.
"Given that you're now in the process of your second fraudulent charge back, I can't say I'm surprised. What I am surprised at is that Star Vault hasn't set a block on your name/address/card number and notified your bank."
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/3631032#3631032
P.S. Orchard Park is a suburb of Buffalo N.Y.
Selling a broken and incomplete game is not an excuse to get a refund?
Not if you were complaining about how broken and incomplete the game was BEFORE you bought it
TWICE! Personally, I can't afford mortal right now so I'm not going to buy it. Next week, however, I will buy it. If it's not up to par for my standards after the first month I simply will not resub until I feel the updates will satisfy.
What irritates me about the entire situation is that the initial charge is no different than buying a console game from a game store (probably cheaper) and then playing the shit out of it for 3 days before your completely done with it..
[Mod edit]
The point of the article this thread was created to discuss is NOT whether or not one person charging back the game twice in 6 months time is ethical.
The point of the article was that people are fed up with companies selling halfbaked games and unilaterally deciding to hold onto your money for an indefinate period of time. Chargebacks HAVE and will continue to effect the future of MMOs.
Once again.. the proof of this is the way SV shipped out their "Boxed Copies" of the game in January. The box was empty except for a single unuseable disc. SV said it was just a placeholder and the real disc would be sent out at launch. I believe the ONLY reason SV did this is because they were getting an avalanche of complaints and this let them try to tell card companies that they shipped "something". If someone has another explanation that makes sense I would love to hear it.
Hopefully the next wave of companies/games LEARNS from this.. maybe they learn that we, the consumer have had enough of them trying to lower the bar of each launch.. progressively spiraling lower and lower quality products. Too long they have believe that we will just meekly accept what they choose to shovel our way.
As the article says... the launch of Mortal was a watershed moment and "The Era of Riding Initial Sales is Over"
PS: Has there been any update from SV about the discs? Its now 3 weeks AFTER release and people who bought the boxed copy still haven't received the promised working/updated discs.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
3 weeks right?
Fixed!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I think they can require proof of your claim. It's just too much of a PITA for them to deal with the paperwork. But if it becomes an issue, they will deal with it. If lawmakers somehow get involved with possible CC fraud, then they might have to eat the costs.
AoC is now one of the best MMO's out there with a ton of content. The game was prematurely released by a person who is no longer with them and I hope was forced to resign or fired due to it. The challenges and time it takes to make an MMO is not easy and I don't expect it to be perfect at first. Give them feedback about the issues and usually they will fix the issues with future updates and content. Now if everbody didn't jump ship on AoC and stuck with it the content and fixes would have come faster due to the income coming in to actually pay for further fixes and content.
If the idea is there and you enjoy what is offered give them time to fix the issues. If you are just mad because they didn't include a feature yet then you need to think about REAL Life here. Everything takes time and money and sometimes we even promise things in our real life that we can't always achieve but had the intention to in the first place.
Now when it comes to single player games I do expect those to have everything promised as they weren't meant to be updated in the future and should have been fully beta tested. But these usually don't have the scope of MMO's. Even if you've noticed as of lately even Single Player games that was meant to include Multiplayer was added later via a download as in Red Dead Redemption.
Since someone else bumped this thread already, I'd like to point out the one thing being missed in this whole discussion. This essay was NOT about chargebacks, it was about MMOs trying to "open big" and make alot of money off of initial sales. Mortal Online and chargebacks were given as an example, most likely because people demanding chargebacks are more vocal than people who just leave a game after a couple months, and because the author follows THIS forum.
The article could just as easily been about the push for lifetime subscription for STO and the disappointment some people had that sections of the game were underdeveloped / feel rushed (e.g. PVE gameplay for the Klingon faction) or the fact that LOTRO is shifting to micro-transactions now that the lifetime subscribers have gotten there money's worth.