And so the cycle begins.. AGAIN..

Rydeson

Hot off the press..

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/1841-Cataclysm-Item-List

 

MMOChampion just released what appears is the beginning loot drops in Cataclysm.   Lvl 272 GREENS better then ICC raid gear.. Now that is just damn funny..  We saw this in TBC expansion, then WoTLK expansion , now here we are again with Cataclysm expansion.. Same thing.. Greens will immediately replace epic gear people spent over a YEAR in raids grinding.. In the 5 expansion levels you'll be doing the same thing as before, replacing all epics with new greens, and after a month IF that.. Players will be farming dungeons at 85th level getting Blues and an occasional purple epic item, then go thru the cycle again of farming heroics for more purples and emblems to do raids..

I wonder how many players will be regearing in greens at level 81 and off to ICC to farm boss targets for achievements..

Palebane

Just one of the many reasons I never bothered to raid past Molten Core.

blackthornn

time for the inflated epeens to shrivel and fall off for a month or so until the raiders get the upper hand again with new purples and emblem gear then stroke their egos to full again.  fun stuff.

Unknown

We all expected this.

dreamscaper

This is not a surprise. It's also the reason I think that people shouldn't raid unless they enjoy it.

deniter

The only difference is that pre-TBC very few had full epic toons, but now every kid and his dog has the best gear you can get in this game so far. It wouldn't make sense to level up to 85 if your gear doesn't improve.

Of course this could have been implemented a better way, which I won't even start to speculate. A damage had already happened in release of TBC, it's too late now to fix anything.

Tarka

This happens in many games.  Item progression.  Yes, it sucks that raid gear becomes worthless with a new expansion, but what exactly were people expecting?  

Now, even though greens in Cataclysm may have larger stat bonuses than their purple item level equivalents, the number of DIFFERENT stats on them will not be as great as purples. 

So in effect raid gear obtained in WotLK will probably prove to be useful in leveling up at levels 81 - 83ish , just like Tier 1 and 2 armour was in TBC leveling from about L61 - 65ish

Therefore I personally don't see what the big deal is.  Item progression is inevitable. 

maji

Complaining about this (greens post expansion better than epics pre expansion) simply shows that you have no idea about game mechanics.

This item level jump is required for balance reasons. Let's say you keep the greens post-cata at the same quality of pre-cata. Well, have fun with the quests, because that means that either each quest gives epics as rewards (which would be quite silly) or 99% of all quest rewards would be worthless.

In addition: it's about the difficulty of the encounters. If you keep the greens at the same level as before, then people who level up from 1 to 85, without stopping to raid, will have no epics when going into cataclysm. However, the quests must be doable for those people. You can't expect everyone to level to 60, raid AQ, BWL and MC for some weeks until they can beat the normal quests of BC. Then again raid Kara and whatnot on lvl 70, before the can continue with WOTLK, and then on 80 raid Nax and ICC and whatnot before they can continue with cata. The difficulty must be designed in a way that someone can smoothly level from 1 to 85 without beeing forced to stop because of a sudden jump in difficulty.

That means, that either the quests are piss easy after each expansion, and everyone with epic gear can simply accept 20 quests at once, pull 500 mobs, go afk, and come back when they died by some thorns buff or auto-hit or whatever. That makes no sense. It would annoy people. It would give them no sense of accomplishment.

The only result is to bring everyone in matters of items no the same level, no matter if they participated in old raid dungeons or not. That requires the cataclysm quests to reward people who never raided before with loot that equals the epics from old quests.

 

That's why it has to be that way. That's why comlaining about powerful greens in expansions is plain stupid. Do I complain because my old core-marksman rifle doesn't kick ass anymore on lvl 80? I was proud when I got it, I had a great time with it, and then when the expansion came out I moved on.

Garvon3

Originally posted by dreamscaper

This is not a surprise. It's also the reason I think that people shouldn't raid unless they enjoy it.

I think most people would enjoy raiding if it was done for fun, and not the same encounter 20 times a month. 

 

This is why I don't understand how people praise WoW. It is fundamentally flawed and poorly designed. Most people say the best part is the end game, but the end game is just repeating the same small handful of raids over and over until an expansion comes out. But that's what you get when you model your game after EverQuest and don't innovate at all, you run into the same problems EQ did. 

Rzep

I dont know what people are comlpainng about. This is how progress works. You get a higher level dung with higher levels mobs so you get better drops...its logical. It would be boring if I had to run around in the same gear for years...and what excatly would be the point of playing if there werent more and better items to get.

BadSpock

I just hope the newly re-done 1-60 game is fun and interesting enough to make up for the eventual 60-80 grind before hitting the new content.

Dreathor

---

Originally posted by Elidien
And this is why I raid for FUN at my leisure and not for gear.

---

This. That is all.

deniter

Originally posted by Garvon3

Originally posted by dreamscaper

This is not a surprise. It's also the reason I think that people shouldn't raid unless they enjoy it.

I think most people would enjoy raiding if it was done for fun, and not the same encounter 20 times a month. 

 

This is why I don't understand how people praise WoW. It is fundamentally flawed and poorly designed. Most people say the best part is the end game, but the end game is just repeating the same small handful of raids over and over until an expansion comes out. But that's what you get when you model your game after EverQuest and don't innovate at all, you run into the same problems EQ did. 

Exactly. Yet, many players seem to think there's no grind in WoW and it's only those evil asian games that are the grindfests.

Tarka

Originally posted by Garvon3

Originally posted by dreamscaper

This is not a surprise. It's also the reason I think that people shouldn't raid unless they enjoy it.

I think most people would enjoy raiding if it was done for fun, and not the same encounter 20 times a month. 

 

This is why I don't understand how people praise WoW. It is fundamentally flawed and poorly designed. Most people say the best part is the end game, but the end game is just repeating the same small handful of raids over and over until an expansion comes out. But that's what you get when you model your game after EverQuest and don't innovate at all, you run into the same problems EQ did. 

erm....if you think that the only reason why someone would raid, is purely for the "fun" of it, then you really don't know people too well.  Character progression (i.e. better items) is a primary motivator throughout ALL MMO's.  Even Sandbox ones.  I know you don't like this situation, but you have to accept it.  YOU are in the minority in terms of why someone would want to raid. 

Besides, how would YOU suggest MMO raids should designed in order to remove repetition and at the same time be seen as "fun"? 

Palebane

Originally posted by maji

Complaining about this (greens post expansion better than epics pre expansion) simply shows that you have no idea about game mechanics.

This item level jump is required for balance reasons. Let's say you keep the greens post-cata at the same quality of pre-cata. Well, have fun with the quests, because that means that either each quest gives epics as rewards (which would be quite silly) or 99% of all quest rewards would be worthless.

In addition: it's about the difficulty of the encounters. If you keep the greens at the same level as before, then people who level up from 1 to 85, without stopping to raid, will have no epics when going into cataclysm. However, the quests must be doable for those people. You can't expect everyone to level to 60, raid AQ, BWL and MC for some weeks until they can beat the normal quests of BC. Then again raid Kara and whatnot on lvl 70, before the can continue with WOTLK, and then on 80 raid Nax and ICC and whatnot before they can continue with cata. The difficulty must be designed in a way that someone can smoothly level from 1 to 85 without beeing forced to stop because of a sudden jump in difficulty.

That means, that either the quests are piss easy after each expansion, and everyone with epic gear can simply accept 20 quests at once, pull 500 mobs, go afk, and come back when they died by some thorns buff or auto-hit or whatever. That makes no sense. It would annoy people. It would give them no sense of accomplishment.

The only result is to bring everyone in matters of items no the same level, no matter if they participated in old raid dungeons or not. That requires the cataclysm quests to reward people who never raided before with loot that equals the epics from old quests.

 

That's why it has to be that way. That's why comlaining about powerful greens in expansions is plain stupid. Do I complain because my old core-marksman rifle doesn't kick ass anymore on lvl 80? I was proud when I got it, I had a great time with it, and then when the expansion came out I moved on.

Yes, that is the logical choice. When reading yoru post though, I was thinking to myself that it might be neat to require players to do the old raids. I'm not much of a raider as I mentioned in my post above, but I would like to see karazhan one day. I suppose I could just go there with some friends once I hit 85 or whatever, but it seems as though most of those raid dungeons are basically lying in waste atm, sort of like the lower level dungeons before the Dungeon Finder came along. Maybe they could put the old raids into the new DF system for players to PuG who have not seen those dungeons before.

MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by Garvon3

Originally posted by dreamscaper

This is not a surprise. It's also the reason I think that people shouldn't raid unless they enjoy it.

I think most people would enjoy raiding if it was done for fun, and not the same encounter 20 times a month. 

 

This is why I don't understand how people praise WoW. It is fundamentally flawed and poorly designed. Most people say the best part is the end game, but the end game is just repeating the same small handful of raids over and over until an expansion comes out. But that's what you get when you model your game after EverQuest and don't innovate at all, you run into the same problems EQ did. 

 

I'm really hoping some of the new MMO's will have better endlevel mechanisms in place, less neverending treadmill, more variation, unpredictability and different goals. In my eyes a next step would be tactical or strategic world objectives like territory conquest or domination.

Seems like sandbox games like EVE Online still have the upper hand upon themepark MMO's in that area.

Tarka

Originally posted by Palebane

Yes, that is the logical choice. When reading yoru post though, I was thinking to myself that it might be neat to require players to do the old raids. I'm not much of a raider as I mentioned in my post above, but I would like to see karazhan one day. I suppose I could just go there with some friends once I hit 85 or whatever, but it seems as though most of those raid dungeons are basically lying in waste atm, sort of like the lower level dungeons before the Dungeon Finder came along. Maybe they could put the old raids into the new DF system for players to PuG who have not seen those dungeons before.

 Well, Blizzard have already announced that immediately after Cataclysm, they are opening up L85 versions of Shadowfang Keep (originally a L25ish dungeon) and the Deadmines.  I believe that they even looked at the possibility of re-vitalising Stratholme and Scholomance.  This seems to indicate that they want to increase interest in the old dungeons and thus "recycle" them.  Which isn't a bad idea.  So long as its not the ONLY content additions to come after Cataclysm.

Tarka

Originally posted by cyphers

Originally posted by Garvon3

Originally posted by dreamscaper

This is not a surprise. It's also the reason I think that people shouldn't raid unless they enjoy it.

I think most people would enjoy raiding if it was done for fun, and not the same encounter 20 times a month. 

 

This is why I don't understand how people praise WoW. It is fundamentally flawed and poorly designed. Most people say the best part is the end game, but the end game is just repeating the same small handful of raids over and over until an expansion comes out. But that's what you get when you model your game after EverQuest and don't innovate at all, you run into the same problems EQ did. 

I'm really hoping some of the new MMO's will have better endlevel mechanisms in place, less neverending treadmill, more variation, unpredictability and different goals. In my eyes a next step would be tactical or strategic world objectives like territory conquest or domination.

Seems like sandbox games like EVE Online still have the upper hand upon themepark MMO's in that area.

 Although I do agree with you, the problem is that WoW already HAS territory control points in a few places in the gameworld, but no one is interested in them.  Now, maybe that's because the benefits aren't really that attractive enough to warrant partaking in such mechanics.

FreedomBlade

Originally posted by Garvon3

Originally posted by dreamscaper

This is not a surprise. It's also the reason I think that people shouldn't raid unless they enjoy it.

I think most people would enjoy raiding if it was done for fun, and not the same encounter 20 times a month. 

 

This is why I don't understand how people praise WoW. It is fundamentally flawed and poorly designed. Most people say the best part is the end game, but the end game is just repeating the same small handful of raids over and over until an expansion comes out. But that's what you get when you model your game after EverQuest and don't innovate at all, you run into the same problems EQ did. 

Totally !!! I agree 100%. I just do not understand what people see in WOW at all, it is like they like being put on a treadmill and with carrots dangled in their face to reach the next level, then the next level, and so on.

How people do not see through this I will never understand.

If you ask me playing WOW = mental illness. 

Tarka

Originally posted by FreedomBlade

Originally posted by Garvon3

Originally posted by dreamscaper

This is not a surprise. It's also the reason I think that people shouldn't raid unless they enjoy it.

I think most people would enjoy raiding if it was done for fun, and not the same encounter 20 times a month. 

 

This is why I don't understand how people praise WoW. It is fundamentally flawed and poorly designed. Most people say the best part is the end game, but the end game is just repeating the same small handful of raids over and over until an expansion comes out. But that's what you get when you model your game after EverQuest and don't innovate at all, you run into the same problems EQ did. 

Totally !!! I agree 100%. I just do not understand what people see in WOW at all, it is like they like being put on a treadmill and with carrots dangled in their face to reach the next level, then the next level, and so on.

How people do not see through this I will never understand.

If you ask me playing WOW = mental illness. 

I'm guessing you don't play EQ1, EQ2, LOTRO, AOC, Eve Online, and every other MMO that uses any form of progression as a motivator.  Which explains why you're here I guess.

Garvon3

Originally posted by Tarka

Originally posted by Garvon3

Originally posted by dreamscaper

This is not a surprise. It's also the reason I think that people shouldn't raid unless they enjoy it.

I think most people would enjoy raiding if it was done for fun, and not the same encounter 20 times a month. 

 

This is why I don't understand how people praise WoW. It is fundamentally flawed and poorly designed. Most people say the best part is the end game, but the end game is just repeating the same small handful of raids over and over until an expansion comes out. But that's what you get when you model your game after EverQuest and don't innovate at all, you run into the same problems EQ did. 

erm....if you think that the only reason why someone would raid, is purely for the "fun" of it, then you really don't know people too well.  Character progression (i.e. better items) is a primary motivator throughout ALL MMO's.  Even Sandbox ones.  I know you don't like this situation, but you have to accept it.  YOU are in the minority in terms of why someone would want to raid. 

Besides, how would YOU suggest MMO raids should designed in order to remove repetition and at the same time be seen as "fun"? 

There have already been games that have raids as just fun. Gear progression, for gear progressions' sake is just sad. Whats the point? You farm gear, so you can have the gear to go to another place and get more gear, and then that gear is made obsolete by an expansion or patch. If you did each raid once or twice, while it was still fun, THEN progressed, maybe that'd be different.

But WoW has one single linear thing to do at the end, raid. And that is where the boredom and grind sets in.

 

In games like Dark Age of Camelot there was a point to the gear you raided because you could use it to fight other places. You could gather up massive parties to raid, or if you didn't want to, or didn't have the time, you could pay a crafter for gear with comparable stats, but it doesn't look at neat. People that wanted to PvE could do the dozens of extremely challenging raids over and over, and those that just wanted to do them for fun, could, because the game wasn't one dimensional.  

Emhster

We all expected this

Meanwhile have fun doing the new 4 bosses forward and backward for the next 6 months!

elocke

It's posts like these that make me detest the "raider" mindset. Truly.

This affects me in NO way at all. Even though I've dabbled in raiding, my commitment to my family and work just makes raiding in MMOs a lost cause. The only thing I like that WoW has done is the 10 man raids, those are more viable time wise. I digress, my point is, my character will be glad to get new gear come expansion time since he's been sitting on his laurels for the past year or more waiting for new content that isn't a Raid. Where most of the playerbase in WoW is!

This is why games with great alt leveling systems and fresh content for them are the better MMOs. WoW had that for awhile, but it still got old after 5 years. I'm glad Cata is coming to fix this. Can't wait.

Tarka

Originally posted by Garvon3

Originally posted by Tarka

Originally posted by Garvon3

Originally posted by dreamscaper

This is not a surprise. It's also the reason I think that people shouldn't raid unless they enjoy it.

I think most people would enjoy raiding if it was done for fun, and not the same encounter 20 times a month. 

 

This is why I don't understand how people praise WoW. It is fundamentally flawed and poorly designed. Most people say the best part is the end game, but the end game is just repeating the same small handful of raids over and over until an expansion comes out. But that's what you get when you model your game after EverQuest and don't innovate at all, you run into the same problems EQ did. 

erm....if you think that the only reason why someone would raid, is purely for the "fun" of it, then you really don't know people too well.  Character progression (i.e. better items) is a primary motivator throughout ALL MMO's.  Even Sandbox ones.  I know you don't like this situation, but you have to accept it.  YOU are in the minority in terms of why someone would want to raid. 

Besides, how would YOU suggest MMO raids should designed in order to remove repetition and at the same time be seen as "fun"? 

There have already been games that have raids as just fun. Gear progression, for gear progressions' sake is just sad. Whats the point? You farm gear, so you can have the gear to go to another place and get more gear, and then that gear is made obsolete by an expansion or patch. If you did each raid once or twice, while it was still fun, THEN progressed, maybe that'd be different.

But WoW has one single linear thing to do at the end, raid. And that is where the boredom and grind sets in.

 

In games like Dark Age of Camelot there was a point to the gear you raided because you could use it to fight other places. You could gather up massive parties to raid, or if you didn't want to, or didn't have the time, you could pay a crafter for gear with comparable stats, but it doesn't look at neat. People that wanted to PvE could do the dozens of extremely challenging raids over and over, and those that just wanted to do them for fun, could, because the game wasn't one dimensional.  

Whats the point in ANY game:  fun.  And fun is subjective.  Some people enjoy character and item progression.  Some don't.

Actually WoW doesn't just have one single point at the end.  There's pvp, raiding, group dungeons and crafting (albeit basic crafting). Just like other games.

You DO realise that WoW has craftable raid gear too don't you?  I'll admit that WoW isn't as dimensional as other games. However, I'm unsure as to what your point with "PVE could do the dozens of extremely challenging raids over and over, and those that just want to do them for fun, could..."  You can do that in WoW too.  Maybe I'm missing you're point I dunno.

Voltlives

And that is one of the reasons I stopped playing WoW, I was never huge in to raiding in WoW but we did try it during vanilla and BC.  It become obvious that if you could survive off the scraps you would surpass the raiders with the next expansion and the random XX wolf you killed's green drop.  Horrible itemization concept, at least give the folks that raided till the next patch before you offer comperable items off trash while you level.  Sorry to those that play and were hoping they learned from the previous expansions.  You deserve better.

 

END OF LINE_

~V

Tarka

Originally posted by Voltlives

And that is one of the reasons I stopped playing WoW, I was never huge in to raiding in WoW but we did try it during vanilla and BC.  It become obvious that if you could survive off the scraps you would surpass the raiders with the next expansion and the random XX wolf you killed's green drop.  Horrible itemization concept, at least give the folks that raided till the next patch before you offer comperable items off trash while you level.  Sorry to those that play and were hopeing they learned from the previous expansions.  You deserve better.

 

END OF LINE_

~V

 That's precisely what raiding is for, to give people something else to do between expansions.  Just like other content additions.  I do agree though that this news is nothing new.  In fact it was expected by a lot of people.