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MMORPG's gameplay suppose to be Everlasting right? So why so much complaining about Grinding?
MMOExposed
Member RarePosts: 7,400
Really, I dont understand the big complaint about grinding in this genre. MMORPG are suppose to have no end, and everlasting character development in some way.
But how could something like this be in a MMORPG that doesnt have grinding of ANY KIND?
Isnt Grinding a term for doing something over and over? Well what else would you do in a never ending game?
Only way for a MMO not to have grinding, was if developers made their games have
1 time Daily 24hour timed events that progress over the course of the day,
^---this---^ *(365.25)*(Number of Years the game is going to be in the market.)
That would take a ton of resources in todays' standards of MMORPG development.
Until Developers gain a Next Gen MMORPG development engines that make Development faster and easier,
I dont see such a thing happening any time soon.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Comments
your right in that there will be grinding to some extent in any mmo (imho), but this can be alleviated with a decent amount of other things to do.
ie- fallen earths crafting sytem was entertaining,
wow's eternal grind for armor sets (i played years ago) kept it interesting for quite some time as the items were attainable but hard to get
eve- theres so many things to do it can keep you busy for years (pvp and meta gaming being the ultimate, allthough meta gaming never interested me)
lotro- actually had a great story line for me as i had read the books, havent played since it went f2p, but it was a great game 6 months ago and i assume still is
as you say there will always grinding, the trick is to make it seem worth while, not get rid of it.
worst grind ever for me personally was sto ( i actually found myself logging in only to get to the next ship even though i found the game insanely boring)
IF THE ONLY DEFENCE FOR CRITICISM OF A GAME IS CALLING SOMEONE A TROLL OR HATER, THAT SAYS A LOT ABOUT THE QUALITY OF THE GAME
People will always complain about everything sooner or later it inevitable. You have the casual players complaining about grinding you have the hardcore complaining the casual gamers ruined the genre and that games are way to easy now.
There will always be this in this market now thanks to WoW it made the game more casual user friendly.
But to answer your question yes there will always be grinding in mmo's but there are many diffrent types of grinding most complain about mob grinding or quest grinding with mob being the one that gets on the casual players nerve more then anythig else.
Well if you wasnt going to kill that NPC for a quest, then what would you been doing?
Grinding Players in PvP, or NPC just for the sake of it? Oh wait,,, there goes that word again. "Grinding"
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
come on there is always the delivery post man quests that everyone loves just make a game will all you do is run from town to town delivering mail and then ppl will stop complaining its a grind maybe?
You have to stop making these straightforward threads.
Grinding is a timesink to slow down the player. It's there to get as much $ out of a player with as little content possible.
When it's too much, people will start to feel they're doing a monotonous repetitive task and they call it "a grind".
Sounds exactly like what happens at endgame too.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
It depends on whether or not you think the normal combat in an MMO is boring. People like me play MMO's for the boss fights and the PvP. Regular mobs are boring to fight, so the game becomes a 'grind' if there isn't enough 'good' content available.
By having content that is changing day to day, like... PvP? Territory control? Extensive economic and crafting system? We already have several games like that.
The bad ones are the endless WoW clone treadmills.
Repeatingly killing Players in PvP (camping?) is a form of Grinding.
Lvling up Mason skills to build Forts and keeps, are a form of grinding.
Repeatingly attacking a Keep/Fort, is a form of grinding.
IMO, its silly to hate grinding so much, because in this genre, there is no way to avoid it.
So instead of whineing to developers to remove grinding, why not ask developers to make the grinding more fun?
I played games that advertise little grind, and in the end, it just wasnt fun, because there wasnt much to do other then the same thing (Hey there goes the grinding in that game).
It too had grinding, but the optional things to choose to grind were very minium. PvE Grind or PvP Grind. Thats was it.
Grinding is never going away in this genre untill next Gen engines are made that make development easy and fast. Until then, I would like more gameplay options to grind, rather then lowing the number of gameplay options available
to do.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
How can you grind pvp?
Every fight should be different. The fact that you are playing against players should make every encouter unique and make it a dynamic experience.
Same thing with trading and territory control. You cannot "grind" that.
Also the problem is that in a theme park MMO, grinding is pretty much required. If you want to remove it, you have to play a sandbox.
Grinding, in my definition is just a boring repetitive action, probaly just killing thousands of monsters that all act similar. And NO MMO's should not be Grindy in my opinion
Playing EVE
Played Darkfall, Played Wow,
Grinding in its most basic form is fundamental for MMO's. The problem is how MUCH of a grind it is.
WoW has 80 levels to go through, but the exp rate and content make the experience that much more enjoyable.
You can level using any combination of quests (a lot of areas can be skipped outright), dungeons, and battlegrounds (PvP).
Now if the only way to level was grinding mobs, something tells me WoW wouldn't be as popular.
you can grind PvP the same way you can grind PvE.
Example, WoW has Instanced PvP, that gets repeated by many. I not sure there are anybody that doesnt agree thats a grind, even if its PvP and things change.
the World PvP zone wow has, also feels like a grind. Doing it over and over and over. Things change, but still the core is the same. Hitting heads, and handing out asses, being the player getting ass handed to. same old same old in every mmo with PvP.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
The problem here, is once you fight everything in the game, you will be bound to repeat fighting thaat monster (X,Y,Z) at some point, since MMORPG genre is suppose to be ever lasting.
Which is why IMO Grind Whine is a joke.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
All the games i play currently have grinds in them. the key is to offer options when the "grind" gets to the player.
I choose to mission grind for isk in Eve, but i have stuff like exploration, small gang pvp and PI to keep me busy.
I grind skills (hunt) solo and in team in Ryzom but then i can work on other things like crafting/digging, run an event, OP battle or mini profession.
in Perpetuum I do a ton of Drone grinding for NIC. but ill break it up with some pvp, missions and mining.
Sandbox games tend to have mor eof a grind than your average western themepark and slightly less than your average Eastern mmo. I guess im used to the repetitive nature of these games.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
That is your problem, you are using wow as a reference for PVP. Wow pvp is almost exclusively instanced and feels very static. You can grind pvp in wow because wow pvp is bad.
Try with UO. Daoc. Eve... anything else lol.
Pvp in Eve, UO and DAoC had a great amount of downtime in between pvp conflicts. This kept the games feeling repetitive pvp wise. newer players would rather have a wow type pvp grind than waiting an hour+ for a fight.
Newer Mmo gamers dont stand for that shit like we used to.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Grind is ok, until it stops being fun. I don't want to have to grind out levels with Kill x boars, or just by killing the boars.
An example I have seen is Mario, the original side scrolling games. That was grind, repatative platforming with the same enemies and mechanics layered differently. But it was fun, because of the way it was presented. You played so long as it was fun, and to save the princess from Bowser.
MMOs should take this exact philosophy to heart, it should be fun. The point of playing the game is NOT to stick your sword into things until the numbers don't go up. It should be fun when you go into a dungeon, it should be your choice, not because it has a slight chance to drop an item that gives you better stats, in order to do another dungeon in order to get weps with better stats, ect.
That is why PvP is so fun, you don't play PvP to lvl, or usually to get better gear. You play it because its fun, its exhilarating, and you are playing against other (some semi) intelligent people. Shooters have known this for years, look at CS, there is no leveling there, no unlocking, no new shiny piece of armor that gives +5 to epeen. That being said, grind always has its place. There is that satisfaction you get when you go *ding*, or when you find that next piece of epic gear. The problem is finding the right ammount of reward for leveling and gear grind. Some games give you new levels and gear with the next expansion, like WoW, others keep their level cap and never increase the stats on their weapons in expansions, like GW. I think you need something more in the middle.
(p.s I love it when my xp bar goes ding, great feeling.)
Disagreement Heirarchy
You are spot on with your whole post. I just wanted to comment on this. I hate leveling really. I think this is why some people focus so much at the end game. Playing with a class that's balanced around certain spells/skills only makes sense at max level. It's ridiculous when you wait till the level cap to get that super special skill, that you never use, because there's nothing left to use it on.
Well Fun is subjective.
Fun can be many different things.
Also PvP doesnt seem to draw in as many people as PvE mmo seem to do.
More peope seem to find PvE more fun than PvP.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
My complaint on grinding is a game that has non-stop grinding until level cap. If the game designers can't come up with a few quests here and there that don't include killing 10 griffon hawklings in mount wannabajuju than they shouldn't be desining the game in the first place because it takes the fun out of games. Nobody wants to sit around for literally hours killing the same monsters over and over again.... non stop gameplay has nothing to do with grinding especially since every MMORPG has a level cap and it really isnt neccesarily "non-stop". End game should absolutely never be a grindfest if thats what your implying. I don't know what kind of asian grindfests you've been playing but your the first person I've seen that defends lack of originality in game design aka grinding.
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
Thats because most "PVP" turns out to actually be one large group vs one guy or a smaller group, because most "pvpers" are actually to cowardly to fight you if theres a chance they will lose.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
They are suppose to be about having fun and generally a good time not about grinding til your eyes bleed and you want to go kick some Dev butt. Grinding is the term used when something has gone pass the level of acceptable and into the dreaded thing you wish there was a way around.
My first mmo was SWG precu and it really didnt feel like a grind to me ever cause it was what i think was a more relaxed setting. Never did i need to bank a bunch of game currency for some epic mount or have to suffer through ten thousand raids to get the uber piece of gear. I general spent all my time playing different templates and trying out new profs and helping Guildmates with whatever they needed. Sometimes it was doing spawn groups to bank higher exps or just escorting crafters into dangerous areas or even just killing certain mobs to get the items they were dropping or the hide, meat, or bone you could harvest from them. Never did it really get to the point of being a grind.
But all the Mmo's i see and play today are generally about getting to top level as fast as possibly so you can get strait throu the end game goodies and be pvp or pve master of the world. Its not about fun anymore it seems. Most ppl dont take time to help out lower levels as they are to busy helping themselves through the next level of progression. Just seems like a waste anymore. Games dont try to make the beginning or the middle parts all that great cause their so busy trying to make the end game fantastic. I do understand with the Wow type theme parks the nessacry grind type but still seems like they could cut some of it down and let players have more time to enjoy their rewards instead of rushing to get the next best thing. Games need to play around with making communities more involved which each other and setting up that with gear coming after. Even if i killed a mob 10,000 times it can still seem worth while and not a grind if you set up the need or function for doing it better.
My 2 cents anyways
A lot of people complain nowadays about anything in a game that isn't them - at that very moment - getting an easy epic. They don't want to quest. They don't want to kill monsters. They don't want to travel. They don't want to explore. They hate any leveling system. If it's anything other than them getting handed something or better yet, buying it in a RMT or out of an item mall, omg it's a grind. Not only is it a grind, they are being "forced."
Those type of players aren't really new or the product of a weaker generation of gamers. It's just that in the older games we had a name for them - noobs. In those games, you couldn't fail your way to success. So they would hit level 30 and discover that their whining and failplay wasn't cutting it, and they would wash out. That, or they would L2P and stop sniviling.
But today we let the noobs reach max level and load them up with charity epics, which makes them think they are gamers. And then we have to listen to them complain that even ez-mode isn't enough.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I could make an intelligent post about how wrong the OP is... but I'll put it in a way he can understand it.
You are wrong. Thanks.
Take a look at UO. The first time I made a character I never once grinded. I "played" the game. And eventually I reached max skills and stats. And then I continued playing the game like before. Guess what? That game is still online today, and my characters effects can still be seen in the world a decade later.