No, seriously, they're like: "Pie sucks, other games serve PIE and it just doesn't work well as a dessert anymore. Pie is boring and tedious, so we've done away with pie!"
And I'm like: "Oh? That sounds intriguing, what dessert are you going to be serving?"
Them: "I'll be soooooo tasty!"
Me: "Really? Sounds good... but what's it made out of?"
Them: "Well, it's gonna taste sweet and really good!"
Me: "So, yeah, it'll be a dessert... got it... but what kind? What ingredients? What flavors?"
Them: "The best ever, because your grand mother's pie was good in '99 but just doesn't cut it anymore!"
Me: "I'm having a hard time salivating for something you're only willing to promise is good... I'd like to at least know some ingredients as I'm allergic to berries."
Them: "It'll be like nothing you've tasted before!!!"
Me: "Wtf? Are you a baker or a politician... just tell me SOMETHING about the effing dessert you're making, so I can decide if I'd like to spend money on it. Other baker are willing to at least lay out some ingredients, or what flavors I can expect even though their bakeries aren't open yet either..."
Then, months later, the bakery finally opens and the place is full of pie.
Me: "Ummm, it's just pie....."
Them: "No way, man, it's a crust-lined sweet dish... and it's the greatest thing EVAR, right?"
Customers starting to grumble and wonder why they came out expecting something spectacular.
Me: "It's pretty good.... but still it's just pie... why couldn't you have said it was just really good pie all along?"
Them: "We never said it wasn't not going to be a somewhat un-pie-relateable experience in a way sorta... ummmm, more pie? I mean crust-line sweet-dish?"
Baker makes good pie, but looks like that crap-hole restaurant down the street called SOE that swears the fly in your soup is working as intended.
"You could say instead of DPS/heal/tank, we have our own trinity of damage, support, and control, but we prefer to think of them as the variety of elements that create a diverse and dynamic combat system that gives each player a toolbox to work with to solve any encounter we might throw their way. If that sounds like the kind of combat you are interested in, Guild Wars 2 is going to be a great place for you and your friends to fight together for many years to come."
"Variety of elements that create a divers and dynamic combat system that gives each player a toolbox to work with to solve any encounte rwe might rhrow their way" doesn't sound like combat I'm interested in, specifially, because they've done nothing to explain what the hell that actually means, what game mechanics they're going to put into place to ensure that accurately describes their product, what concepts they're employing to attain that outcome.
Every game ever could say, "hey, do you want a "variety of elements that create a divers and dynamic combat system that gives each player a toolbox to work with to solve any encounte rwe might rhrow their way?" Because that's what we're aiming for!"
Everything so far I've read or seen from the GW2 site and team sounds like a salesman trying to get his foot in the door when I'm half naked from just getting out of the shower and seriously don't want to buy frozen steaks from some dude's car! It's the kind of thing they teach you in salesman school. Hit the customer with a concept they can't refuse... but don't ever tell them you're just selling the same crap they could buy at Walmart.
And that half-assed games built on intentions and hopes instead of solid mechanics and disclosed information usually DID say things like this! lol
Do you want a next-gen mmorpg that puts the fun back into adventure and cuts the grind out of the equation to provide exhillerating, flexible choice-based combat that doesn't rely on the stale, restrictive system of the holy trinity that plague other games and ruin the fun?!
Sure, RonCo, I SURE DO!!! but how will you do this?! -shot of the paid studio audience all nodding, enthralled-
Well, three easy payments of us simply creating our own holy trinity!
A little scepticism or a reserved attitude until the beta arrives is good, to dismiss that GW2 might be one of the upcoming MMO's that can break or progress away from traditions like the trinity, goes too far though.
.....
That last sentence also implies that if you don't like different combat but want to play only/mostly trinity style, then there's always other MMO's that you can pick that have that kind of specialised team combat.
"You could say instead of DPS/heal/tank, we have our own trinity of damage, support, and control, but we prefer to think of them as the variety of elements that create a diverse and dynamic combat system that gives each player a toolbox to work with to solve any encounter we might throw their way. If that sounds like the kind of combat you are interested in, Guild Wars 2 is going to be a great place for you and your friends to fight together for many years to come."
"Variety of elements that create a divers and dynamic combat system that gives each player a toolbox to work with to solve any encounte rwe might rhrow their way" doesn't sound like combat I'm interested in, specifially, because they've done nothing to explain what the hell that actually means, what game mechanics they're going to put into place to ensure that accurately describes their product, what concepts they're employing to attain that outcome.
Every game ever could say, "hey, do you want a "variety of elements that create a divers and dynamic combat system that gives each player a toolbox to work with to solve any encounte rwe might rhrow their way?" Because that's what we're aiming for!"
Everything so far I've read or seen from the GW2 site and team sounds like a salesman trying to get his foot in the door when I'm half naked from just getting out of the shower and seriously don't want to buy frozen steaks from some dude's car! It's the kind of thing they teach you in salesman school. Hit the customer with a concept they can't refuse... but don't ever tell them you're just selling the same crap they could buy at Walmart.
And that half-assed games built on intentions and hopes instead of solid mechanics and disclosed information usually DID say things like this! lol
Do you want a next-gen mmorpg that puts the fun back into adventure and cuts the grind out of the equation to provide exhillerating, flexible choice-based combat that doesn't rely on the stale, restrictive system of the holy trinity that plague other games and ruin the fun?!
Sure, RonCo, I SURE DO!!! but how will you do this?! -shot of the paid studio audience all nodding, enthralled-
Well, three easy payments of us simply creating our own holy trinity!
-facepalm-
Even if what you say is true, while looking at upcoming MMO's, you can't ignore the fact that Guild Wars is still a viable option. I can name a few things that make SW:TOR unique, but can name a lot more that make GW2 unique. Hell, instanced stories were in GW1, and that alone is a good selling point.
From my point, I see these following as good selling points. Doesn't matter what salesman solicted these things to me, as long as I knew what they were and how they functioned, these things had me sold.
-Instanced storyline with choices. I don't expect the choices to be drastic. I don't expect them to completely change the landscape, but there will be choices.
-PvP with a limitless count of players. Don't really need advertising there...
-Skills effecting skills. Arrows flying through electricity will be "stunningly" charged. Whirlwinding through fire will shoot flames out in all different directions. We have seen these in affect already, seems pretty straight foward to me.
-5 man raids. Get into the action instead of preparing for it.
-Dynamic events. No more exclamation marks, no more killing 50 of those creatures. Simple enough.
-Umbra Culling. Again, no advertisng needed there.
-And then ofcourse. No monthly fee. Now if ArenaNet does what they did with GW1, with the small in-game shop, I would be fine. Only two things in the GW1 shop were not obtainable in-game... character slots, and character editing.
To me, that's a pretty solid list. And we don't even know how Havok runs in the game. We don't know all the professions yet. I mean, we really only know a fraction ogf the game. Sure I will find negatives, but I'm pretty sure I will be able to add more to my list.
And to be fair, a company can label and re-sell junk, that's why I left certain things off the above list. I only put things that were easy to implement, and for sure solid. Things like city activities, underwater exploration, chaning the hole trinity. Those type of things could go bad, so they're not on the list.
"Variety of elements that create a divers and dynamic combat system that gives each player a toolbox to work with to solve any encounte rwe might rhrow their way" doesn't sound like combat I'm interested in, specifially, because they've done nothing to explain what the hell that actually means, what game mechanics they're going to put into place to ensure that accurately describes their product, what concepts they're employing to attain that outcome.
No, you're just being stubborn just to be stubborn, or better said:
you have not been listening.
They've elaborated upon what they meant. Other people besides you seemed to grasp it. Other people even gave examples of their experiences they had with GW that resembled it. Clearly they understood aspects of what was being said that seemed to elude you.
But that's alright. As with other news from ANet, we will see more posts and info released that will reveal things more in detail, and you may be stubborn or acting dumb however much you like.
It'll be fun to quote you though then, again and again.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
"Variety of elements that create a divers and dynamic combat system that gives each player a toolbox to work with to solve any encounte rwe might rhrow their way" doesn't sound like combat I'm interested in, specifially, because they've done nothing to explain what the hell that actually means, what game mechanics they're going to put into place to ensure that accurately describes their product, what concepts they're employing to attain that outcome.
No, you're just being stubborn just to be stubborn, or better said:
you have not been listening.
They've elaborated upon what they meant. Other people besides you seemed to grasp it. Other people even gave examples of their experiences they had with GW that resembled it. Clearly they understood aspects of what was being said that seemed to elude you.
But that's alright. As with other news from ANet, we will see more posts and info released that will reveal things more in detail, and you may be stubborn or acting dumb however much you like.
It'll be fun to quote you though then, again and again.
Now, now. No need to get nasty and personal.
And I try to get my information from the dev team of a game, not from forum pontficators guessing how ideas will be implemented and filling in the gaps on how a system might work.
And when they give more INFORMATION and reveal things in more detail I'll be glad they finally did, and maybe then finally buy into what still seems to me as talking points and hype. I understand their tactic: speaking in generalities so the playerbase fills in the details with their dream mmorpg so they sell more boxes out of the gate, which is particularly troubling in a game that will rely mostly on those very box sales for revenue. I just don't care for it.
You're probably still convinced I can't understand a game without a [typical] holy trinity, lol. Again, for the buttzillionth time, I know how it can work, I just don't understand why they can't just tell us exactly how it will work instead of all their intentions and implications of the great system they have, but won't share. For instance, I understand the bleed out stuff because they actually EXPLAIN it with information and descriptions of the mechanics... I know, amazing of them to give us that instead of just 'it'll be like a near-death experience never seen before and do away with the mundane die and be dead system that has plagued previous games" which wouldn't have told us anything. Okay, so you die and have one last chance to act with a limited number of skills. Cool.
I suspect they aren't going into detail on their not-holy-trinity holy trinity system because it isn't worked out yet, which has me concerned and in my mind means they shouldn't be so fast to mark it down as signed, sealed, delivered.
Don't worry, though, your insulting response aside I still your face.
"Variety of elements that create a divers and dynamic combat system that gives each player a toolbox to work with to solve any encounte rwe might rhrow their way" doesn't sound like combat I'm interested in, specifially, because they've done nothing to explain what the hell that actually means, what game mechanics they're going to put into place to ensure that accurately describes their product, what concepts they're employing to attain that outcome.
No, you're just being stubborn just to be stubborn, or better said:
you have not been listening.
They've elaborated upon what they meant. Other people besides you seemed to grasp it. Other people even gave examples of their experiences they had with GW that resembled it. Clearly they understood aspects of what was being said that seemed to elude you.
But that's alright. As with other news from ANet, we will see more posts and info released that will reveal things more in detail, and you may be stubborn or acting dumb however much you like.
It'll be fun to quote you though then, again and again.
Now, now. No need to get nasty and personal.
And I try to get my information from the dev team of a game, not from forum pontficators guessing how ideas will be implemented and filling in the gaps on how a system might work.
And when they give more INFORMATION and reveal things in more detail I'll be glad they finally did, and maybe then finally buy into what still seems to me as talking points and hype. I understand their tactic: speaking in generalities so the playerbase fills in the details with their dream mmorpg so they sell more boxes out of the gate, which is particularly troubling in a game that will rely mostly on those very box sales for revenue. I just don't care for it.
You're probably still convinced I can't understand a game without a [typical] holy trinity, lol. Again, for the buttzillionth time, I know how it can work, I just don't understand why they can't just tell us exactly how it will work instead of all their intentions and implications of the great system they have, but won't share. For instance, I understand the bleed out stuff because they actually EXPLAIN it with information and descriptions of the mechanics... I know, amazing of them to give us that instead of just 'it'll be like a near-death experience never seen before and do away with the mundane die and be dead system that has plagued previous games" which wouldn't have told us anything. Okay, so you die and have one last chance to act with a limited number of skills. Cool.
I suspect they aren't going into detail on their not-holy-trinity holy trinity system because it isn't worked out yet, which has me concerned and in my mind means they shouldn't be so fast to mark it down as signed, sealed, delivered.
Don't worry, though, your insulting response aside I still your face.
Man, i know all ANET has given us by now is just info, but it's not that hard to figure out how the "no dps/tank/heal" will work, it has been done before: Diablo, specially if u had no paladin or necromancer in your group. Of course the "NO" here is not 100% (nothing ever is), because i bet there'll be people specializing in support and plate wearers will be the only ones to withstand well some of the heaviest blows (like leet high level boss skill), but they wont be that needed or really effective (and this is the great key to the success of this system).
Of course we are all assumpting, but this is what you can surely expect from GW2 fighting system:
1 - Total chaos in the pve hardest fights until we all get the grip of the system - OR realize that GW2 isnt WoW and it's insane to even think that a bunch of faggots could kill Illidan, Arthas and Deathwing (over 9000 times). I don't expect to witness the fall of Zhaitan (or even other major dragons) so easily, it'll probably take a massive amount of resources, linked rare events triggered and coordination of the players (just google about "Tibia Ferumbras Legend", i don't know if you'll get any reliable information about this nowadays but this is how a major boss should be defeated).
2 - MANY, many variables, both in pvp and pve. This comes from GW1 and based on what they have said of GW2 until now, u can count this in.
Playing: Starcraft II. Played: Tibia, Ragnarok Online, Ultima Online, Guild Wars, World of Warcraft. Wanna play: Guild Wars 2, SW:TOR, Final Fantasy XIV, Diablo III.
And I try to get my information from the dev team of a game, not from forum pontficators guessing how ideas will be implemented and filling in the gaps on how a system might work.
And when they give more INFORMATION and reveal things in more detail I'll be glad they finally did, and maybe then finally buy into what still seems to me as talking points and hype. I understand their tactic: speaking in generalities so the playerbase fills in the details with their dream mmorpg so they sell more boxes out of the gate, which is particularly troubling in a game that will rely mostly on those very box sales for revenue. I just don't care for it.
You're probably still convinced I can't understand a game without a [typical] holy trinity, lol. Again, for the buttzillionth time, I know how it can work, I just don't understand why they can't just tell us exactly how it will work instead of all their intentions and implications of the great system they have, but won't share. For instance, I understand the bleed out stuff because they actually EXPLAIN it with information and descriptions of the mechanics... I know, amazing of them to give us that instead of just 'it'll be like a near-death experience never seen before and do away with the mundane die and be dead system that has plagued previous games" which wouldn't have told us anything. Okay, so you die and have one last chance to act with a limited number of skills. Cool.
I suspect they aren't going into detail on their not-holy-trinity holy trinity system because it isn't worked out yet, which has me concerned and in my mind means they shouldn't be so fast to mark it down as signed, sealed, delivered.
Don't worry, though, your insulting response aside I still your face.
In orange- Pot, I'd like you to meet kettle.
Here's the thing, the only piece of evidence we have on them tweaking how the archetypes work is on their site, in plain view. We all know there will more than likely be more examples from them on this, as well as the videos that'll come from PAX and any other venues they attend. So, what's the point in quibbling on about this?
And you're probably right, they probably didn't go into crystal-clear detail about it because it's probably not fully finished yet. It shouldn't "concern" you anyway, they've only released 3 classes, so yeah, it shouldn't be finished yet. Honestly, it wouldn't make sense if it was and that would be more cause for concern than them NOT fully explaining something from a game that's not even in beta yet.
In WoW, they released info on Battlegrounds before they implemented them. Did players everywhere on forums start getting all upset because they didn't reveal all the details, show all the maps, or all the items you could obtain? Answer's no. They gave examples of what to expect, nothing more.
Warhammer, did players get upset and concerned about them revealing the RvR systems without telling everyone about where the keeps would be located on the maps, or where the best entrance is into the zones from the PvE routes? Answer's no. They gave examples of what to expect, nothing more.
Think some of you didn't pay attention very well when reading the articles. They said no healers, as in there is no proffesion that stands in the back and casts heals all the time. That doesn't mean their wont be specialized support proffesions, and to think that is rediculous considering how many proffessions they have. There are support focused proffessions. Proffesions that are still allowed a small amount of healing, but more importantly the ability to save group wipes and keep the team up. As they said they are focusing support proffesions on more active buffing rather than reactive buffing, Healing is reactive. trying to react to damage is a lot more painfull and annoying for a support proffesion to deal with than to prevent it with counter measures. So expect more things like forcefield buffs that absorb or block incoming damage.
This actually works too considering games like city of heroes have a support class that specialized in preventing damge(Force Field defender), and for awhile they were way better than the other support roles like healing. Because stoping damage is way more efficent and fun than reacting to damage. People don't realize how inefficent healing really is. The best part to is when you stop damage and don't have to spend a lot of time looking at ally health bars it leaves you more time to attack the enemy. Then you can just glance occasionally at your allies health to see if you need to spot heal at all. I immagine that is what arena net has in mind.
The Looking for group comment is a whole nother part that has nothing do to with their being Support proffesions. They have proffessions that are allowed to fill a role is some sort of limited way. for example the Ranger can bring a mowa pet out to be a support for the team. Elementalists can perfom a small amount of support with water, etc.
Let me summarize. Proactive healing is way more fun than reactive healing (FACT!!!) which is why support roles like a ranger pet will replace the conventional healer, and isntead of 'heal' which is boring there will be exciting mechanics to absorb or block incoming damage (like many healing classes in other games have, lol).
I'm still not sold.
Again, until they explain exactly how this will go down and give some real information on group dynamics I'm not going to jump on the 'omg it'll be the bestest evaaar' bandwagon yet. Call me crazy, but I feel more comfortable saying 'that mechanic will work nicely and is what I'm looking for in a game' rather than 'the devs have high hopes and chocolate covered intentions.'
Remember how every failed mmorpg ever had devs and fans talking the game up with vague notions on what the game will maybe end up being based on the intentions the devs can hopefully execute? If you listened to devs and fans, Vanguard was going to be fully interactive no-possible-way-to-zerg skill-based grouping game, and cure cancer! What was the truth, when the facts started to come out? It was going to improve group content in little ways like weaknesses other classes could exploit and reactions triggered by things like crits or changes in agro. It was actually more fun, but by launch along with every other problem people expected it to be virtual reality because the devs (read as Brad) never gave out information, just healthy doses of intentions and dreams.
GW2 look intriguing, has a very good crew producing videos, has a politician level PR department writing scripts for the devs.... but until we get actual Infor-effing-mation I'm not going to bow down to the hype. Personal choice. In the mean time, I'll continue to be annoyed by people that argue the game will be more fun than other games because the devs claim they're doing away with things that aren't fun, like duuuuuh!
I personally don't like words being put into my mouth if you are going to quote me. I never said this is going to be the best game ever. I actually don't overhype on MMO's anymore. I just go off of current bits of information given to us by the developers. My post was more about people thinking a healer class won't be in the game. I was mostly just using A-net's buzz words. I am more concerned with people thinking their won't be any sort of support class in the game because they said no healers in the game. While some people may not like healing classes I have plenty of friends that do, and A-net said they built proffessions with these people in mind. There will always be healers in games as long as people enjoy the play style. All A-net is suggesting is that they are going to make it more fun for them, we will see how they do. Personally I am sick of people who normaly play dps whining about healers. Dps isn't the only style developers care about and I am sick of the emphasis it has gotten in MMO's. I play DPS and I enjoy the class diversity of other class roles, MMO's would become very 1 demensional if it became about 1 type of class role.
I personally don't think the trinity is disapearing. I just think they are focusing the mechanics into the skill system they have created. It feels more about creating class balance then doing anything groundbreaking in concept. I feel they are trying to make all roles viable, like the paradox of the PvP tank. I don't know if they will, but I think that is why they have worded it and broke the game mechanics the way they have.
I also don't think rangers will replace Primary support proffessions. What it seems they are trying to do is create options for each proffession to fill all roles in some limited way so you aren't standing around in the city somewhere spamming the typical looking for group message. we will see if they actually do this. I sort of imagine it as a spider graph of the groups statistics balanced as it regards dps output, support, and amount of control based on what proffessions are in the group and how they are setup. I view it as 1 large balancing act where any class could balance out the group by changing their setup. I deffinately won't hold A-net to that standard because that model would be awsome and I have doubts that any developer could achieve such a model of game design.
They've always said that they never talk about something that isn't implemented yet, if their Holy trinity wasn't working I don't think we'd even have a profession reveal because without it the game wouldn't be playable. And just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it doesn't work, it just means you don't understand it. Yes of course no one can fully grasp the concept of their holy trinity without actually playing something similar to it (GW1) but that doesn't mean its all smoke and mirrors.
An example of control (this is a quote from Anet on the ranger) would be knock back by using the kick as seen in the hunter's call video or in the water trident video, an example of DAMAGE would be the churning earth ele video, and example of support would be;
Q: Is the Guild Wars 2 skill system open enough that someone could put a bunch of support skills in their skill bar and therefore focus solely on that? Would it even be possible to have a ‘full support’ bar with 8 to 10 skills slots used for support?
Jon: It is open enough that you could focus on support. A character can certainly fill their bar so that more than half of their skills have some sort of support function. Many skills have multiple uses, so a skill might hurt enemies and help allies at the same time, which opens up more space for support while still contributing to damage. For example, elementalists have access to skills like Geyser, which causes a fountain of water to erupt in an area, knocking enemies away and healing allies.
And if you read the quote closely you'll notice he said knockback and healing which is support and control in one skill. The examples of their Holy trinity are definitely in the interviews, its just up to you to take a good look at it and see/understand what they are talking about. And in actuality thats an example of the holy trinity wrapped up in one skill.
Some people in this thread should play GW 1 PVP (especially 8vs8). Then they would learn that there are team setups that dont even use one monk at all, which can crush other teams without a problem. You will see that a team can do without the holy trinity setup.
The example mentioned about the opposing team having 2 monks is only a problem in Random arena. The whole point of Random Arena is that you cant create a team yourself, but are thrown together at random. In that case having 2 monks (if they are setup for healing or protecting anyway), is a great advantage. But random arena is not the core of GW PVP.
Even in GW PVE you dont have the classic holy trinity setup. There is no such thing as a classic tank with a taunt skill in GW. The only thing you can do is positioning and bodyblocking to help your support teammembers. Any support teammember in GW needs to learn how to kite to get rid of attacking mobs.
Some players are so brainwashed by this tank and spank gameplay that they are not even aware of other possibilities.
They've always said that they never talk about something that isn't implemented yet, if their Holy trinity wasn't working I don't think we'd even have a profession reveal because without it the game wouldn't be playable. And just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it doesn't work, it just means you don't understand it. Yes of course no one can fully grasp the concept of their holy trinity without actually playing something similar to it (GW1) but that doesn't mean its all smoke and mirrors.
An example of control (this is a quote from Anet on the ranger) would be knock back by using the kick as seen in the hunter's call video or in the water trident video, an example of DAMAGE would be the churning earth ele video, and example of support would be;
Q: Is the Guild Wars 2 skill system open enough that someone could put a bunch of support skills in their skill bar and therefore focus solely on that? Would it even be possible to have a ‘full support’ bar with 8 to 10 skills slots used for support?
Jon: It is open enough that you could focus on support. A character can certainly fill their bar so that more than half of their skills have some sort of support function. Many skills have multiple uses, so a skill might hurt enemies and help allies at the same time, which opens up more space for support while still contributing to damage. For example, elementalists have access to skills like Geyser, which causes a fountain of water to erupt in an area, knocking enemies away and healing allies.
And if you read the quote closely you'll notice he said knockback and healing which is support and control in one skill. The examples of their Holy trinity are definitely in the interviews, its just up to you to take a good look at it and see/understand what they are talking about. And in actuality thats an example of the holy trinity wrapped up in one skill.
Comments
No, seriously, they're like: "Pie sucks, other games serve PIE and it just doesn't work well as a dessert anymore. Pie is boring and tedious, so we've done away with pie!"
And I'm like: "Oh? That sounds intriguing, what dessert are you going to be serving?"
Them: "I'll be soooooo tasty!"
Me: "Really? Sounds good... but what's it made out of?"
Them: "Well, it's gonna taste sweet and really good!"
Me: "So, yeah, it'll be a dessert... got it... but what kind? What ingredients? What flavors?"
Them: "The best ever, because your grand mother's pie was good in '99 but just doesn't cut it anymore!"
Me: "I'm having a hard time salivating for something you're only willing to promise is good... I'd like to at least know some ingredients as I'm allergic to berries."
Them: "It'll be like nothing you've tasted before!!!"
Me: "Wtf? Are you a baker or a politician... just tell me SOMETHING about the effing dessert you're making, so I can decide if I'd like to spend money on it. Other baker are willing to at least lay out some ingredients, or what flavors I can expect even though their bakeries aren't open yet either..."
Then, months later, the bakery finally opens and the place is full of pie.
Me: "Ummm, it's just pie....."
Them: "No way, man, it's a crust-lined sweet dish... and it's the greatest thing EVAR, right?"
Customers starting to grumble and wonder why they came out expecting something spectacular.
Me: "It's pretty good.... but still it's just pie... why couldn't you have said it was just really good pie all along?"
Them: "We never said it wasn't not going to be a somewhat un-pie-relateable experience in a way sorta... ummmm, more pie? I mean crust-line sweet-dish?"
Baker makes good pie, but looks like that crap-hole restaurant down the street called SOE that swears the fly in your soup is working as intended.
According to a Facebook quiz, I'm a genius.
"Variety of elements that create a divers and dynamic combat system that gives each player a toolbox to work with to solve any encounte rwe might rhrow their way" doesn't sound like combat I'm interested in, specifially, because they've done nothing to explain what the hell that actually means, what game mechanics they're going to put into place to ensure that accurately describes their product, what concepts they're employing to attain that outcome.
Every game ever could say, "hey, do you want a "variety of elements that create a divers and dynamic combat system that gives each player a toolbox to work with to solve any encounte rwe might rhrow their way?" Because that's what we're aiming for!"
Everything so far I've read or seen from the GW2 site and team sounds like a salesman trying to get his foot in the door when I'm half naked from just getting out of the shower and seriously don't want to buy frozen steaks from some dude's car! It's the kind of thing they teach you in salesman school. Hit the customer with a concept they can't refuse... but don't ever tell them you're just selling the same crap they could buy at Walmart.
And that half-assed games built on intentions and hopes instead of solid mechanics and disclosed information usually DID say things like this! lol
Do you want a next-gen mmorpg that puts the fun back into adventure and cuts the grind out of the equation to provide exhillerating, flexible choice-based combat that doesn't rely on the stale, restrictive system of the holy trinity that plague other games and ruin the fun?!
Sure, RonCo, I SURE DO!!! but how will you do this?! -shot of the paid studio audience all nodding, enthralled-
Well, three easy payments of us simply creating our own holy trinity!
-facepalm-
According to a Facebook quiz, I'm a genius.
I need more vespene gas.
Even if what you say is true, while looking at upcoming MMO's, you can't ignore the fact that Guild Wars is still a viable option. I can name a few things that make SW:TOR unique, but can name a lot more that make GW2 unique. Hell, instanced stories were in GW1, and that alone is a good selling point.
From my point, I see these following as good selling points. Doesn't matter what salesman solicted these things to me, as long as I knew what they were and how they functioned, these things had me sold.
-Instanced storyline with choices. I don't expect the choices to be drastic. I don't expect them to completely change the landscape, but there will be choices.
-PvP with a limitless count of players. Don't really need advertising there...
-Skills effecting skills. Arrows flying through electricity will be "stunningly" charged. Whirlwinding through fire will shoot flames out in all different directions. We have seen these in affect already, seems pretty straight foward to me.
-5 man raids. Get into the action instead of preparing for it.
-Dynamic events. No more exclamation marks, no more killing 50 of those creatures. Simple enough.
-Umbra Culling. Again, no advertisng needed there.
-And then ofcourse. No monthly fee. Now if ArenaNet does what they did with GW1, with the small in-game shop, I would be fine. Only two things in the GW1 shop were not obtainable in-game... character slots, and character editing.
To me, that's a pretty solid list. And we don't even know how Havok runs in the game. We don't know all the professions yet. I mean, we really only know a fraction ogf the game. Sure I will find negatives, but I'm pretty sure I will be able to add more to my list.
And to be fair, a company can label and re-sell junk, that's why I left certain things off the above list. I only put things that were easy to implement, and for sure solid. Things like city activities, underwater exploration, chaning the hole trinity. Those type of things could go bad, so they're not on the list.
No, you're just being stubborn just to be stubborn, or better said:
you have not been listening.
They've elaborated upon what they meant. Other people besides you seemed to grasp it. Other people even gave examples of their experiences they had with GW that resembled it. Clearly they understood aspects of what was being said that seemed to elude you.
But that's alright. As with other news from ANet, we will see more posts and info released that will reveal things more in detail, and you may be stubborn or acting dumb however much you like.
It'll be fun to quote you though then, again and again.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Now, now. No need to get nasty and personal.
And I try to get my information from the dev team of a game, not from forum pontficators guessing how ideas will be implemented and filling in the gaps on how a system might work.
And when they give more INFORMATION and reveal things in more detail I'll be glad they finally did, and maybe then finally buy into what still seems to me as talking points and hype. I understand their tactic: speaking in generalities so the playerbase fills in the details with their dream mmorpg so they sell more boxes out of the gate, which is particularly troubling in a game that will rely mostly on those very box sales for revenue. I just don't care for it.
You're probably still convinced I can't understand a game without a [typical] holy trinity, lol. Again, for the buttzillionth time, I know how it can work, I just don't understand why they can't just tell us exactly how it will work instead of all their intentions and implications of the great system they have, but won't share. For instance, I understand the bleed out stuff because they actually EXPLAIN it with information and descriptions of the mechanics... I know, amazing of them to give us that instead of just 'it'll be like a near-death experience never seen before and do away with the mundane die and be dead system that has plagued previous games" which wouldn't have told us anything. Okay, so you die and have one last chance to act with a limited number of skills. Cool.
I suspect they aren't going into detail on their not-holy-trinity holy trinity system because it isn't worked out yet, which has me concerned and in my mind means they shouldn't be so fast to mark it down as signed, sealed, delivered.
Don't worry, though, your insulting response aside I still
your face.
According to a Facebook quiz, I'm a genius.
Man, i know all ANET has given us by now is just info, but it's not that hard to figure out how the "no dps/tank/heal" will work, it has been done before: Diablo, specially if u had no paladin or necromancer in your group. Of course the "NO" here is not 100% (nothing ever is), because i bet there'll be people specializing in support and plate wearers will be the only ones to withstand well some of the heaviest blows (like leet high level boss skill), but they wont be that needed or really effective (and this is the great key to the success of this system).
Of course we are all assumpting, but this is what you can surely expect from GW2 fighting system:
1 - Total chaos in the pve hardest fights until we all get the grip of the system - OR realize that GW2 isnt WoW and it's insane to even think that a bunch of faggots could kill Illidan, Arthas and Deathwing (over 9000 times). I don't expect to witness the fall of Zhaitan (or even other major dragons) so easily, it'll probably take a massive amount of resources, linked rare events triggered and coordination of the players (just google about "Tibia Ferumbras Legend", i don't know if you'll get any reliable information about this nowadays but this is how a major boss should be defeated).
2 - MANY, many variables, both in pvp and pve. This comes from GW1 and based on what they have said of GW2 until now, u can count this in.
Playing: Starcraft II.
Played: Tibia, Ragnarok Online, Ultima Online, Guild Wars, World of Warcraft.
Wanna play: Guild Wars 2, SW:TOR, Final Fantasy XIV, Diablo III.
In orange- Pot, I'd like you to meet kettle.
Here's the thing, the only piece of evidence we have on them tweaking how the archetypes work is on their site, in plain view. We all know there will more than likely be more examples from them on this, as well as the videos that'll come from PAX and any other venues they attend. So, what's the point in quibbling on about this?
And you're probably right, they probably didn't go into crystal-clear detail about it because it's probably not fully finished yet. It shouldn't "concern" you anyway, they've only released 3 classes, so yeah, it shouldn't be finished yet. Honestly, it wouldn't make sense if it was and that would be more cause for concern than them NOT fully explaining something from a game that's not even in beta yet.
In WoW, they released info on Battlegrounds before they implemented them. Did players everywhere on forums start getting all upset because they didn't reveal all the details, show all the maps, or all the items you could obtain? Answer's no. They gave examples of what to expect, nothing more.
Warhammer, did players get upset and concerned about them revealing the RvR systems without telling everyone about where the keeps would be located on the maps, or where the best entrance is into the zones from the PvE routes? Answer's no. They gave examples of what to expect, nothing more.
Hope this helps!
I personally don't like words being put into my mouth if you are going to quote me. I never said this is going to be the best game ever. I actually don't overhype on MMO's anymore. I just go off of current bits of information given to us by the developers. My post was more about people thinking a healer class won't be in the game. I was mostly just using A-net's buzz words. I am more concerned with people thinking their won't be any sort of support class in the game because they said no healers in the game. While some people may not like healing classes I have plenty of friends that do, and A-net said they built proffessions with these people in mind. There will always be healers in games as long as people enjoy the play style. All A-net is suggesting is that they are going to make it more fun for them, we will see how they do. Personally I am sick of people who normaly play dps whining about healers. Dps isn't the only style developers care about and I am sick of the emphasis it has gotten in MMO's. I play DPS and I enjoy the class diversity of other class roles, MMO's would become very 1 demensional if it became about 1 type of class role.
I personally don't think the trinity is disapearing. I just think they are focusing the mechanics into the skill system they have created. It feels more about creating class balance then doing anything groundbreaking in concept. I feel they are trying to make all roles viable, like the paradox of the PvP tank. I don't know if they will, but I think that is why they have worded it and broke the game mechanics the way they have.
I also don't think rangers will replace Primary support proffessions. What it seems they are trying to do is create options for each proffession to fill all roles in some limited way so you aren't standing around in the city somewhere spamming the typical looking for group message. we will see if they actually do this. I sort of imagine it as a spider graph of the groups statistics balanced as it regards dps output, support, and amount of control based on what proffessions are in the group and how they are setup. I view it as 1 large balancing act where any class could balance out the group by changing their setup. I deffinately won't hold A-net to that standard because that model would be awsome and I have doubts that any developer could achieve such a model of game design.
They've always said that they never talk about something that isn't implemented yet, if their Holy trinity wasn't working I don't think we'd even have a profession reveal because without it the game wouldn't be playable. And just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it doesn't work, it just means you don't understand it. Yes of course no one can fully grasp the concept of their holy trinity without actually playing something similar to it (GW1) but that doesn't mean its all smoke and mirrors.
An example of control (this is a quote from Anet on the ranger) would be knock back by using the kick as seen in the hunter's call video or in the water trident video, an example of DAMAGE would be the churning earth ele video, and example of support would be;
Q: Is the Guild Wars 2 skill system open enough that someone could put a bunch of support skills in their skill bar and therefore focus solely on that? Would it even be possible to have a ‘full support’ bar with 8 to 10 skills slots used for support?
Jon: It is open enough that you could focus on support. A character can certainly fill their bar so that more than half of their skills have some sort of support function. Many skills have multiple uses, so a skill might hurt enemies and help allies at the same time, which opens up more space for support while still contributing to damage. For example, elementalists have access to skills like Geyser, which causes a fountain of water to erupt in an area, knocking enemies away and healing allies.
And if you read the quote closely you'll notice he said knockback and healing which is support and control in one skill. The examples of their Holy trinity are definitely in the interviews, its just up to you to take a good look at it and see/understand what they are talking about. And in actuality thats an example of the holy trinity wrapped up in one skill.
This is not a game.
Stop the BS already!
Some people in this thread should play GW 1 PVP (especially 8vs8). Then they would learn that there are team setups that dont even use one monk at all, which can crush other teams without a problem. You will see that a team can do without the holy trinity setup.
The example mentioned about the opposing team having 2 monks is only a problem in Random arena. The whole point of Random Arena is that you cant create a team yourself, but are thrown together at random. In that case having 2 monks (if they are setup for healing or protecting anyway), is a great advantage. But random arena is not the core of GW PVP.
Even in GW PVE you dont have the classic holy trinity setup. There is no such thing as a classic tank with a taunt skill in GW. The only thing you can do is positioning and bodyblocking to help your support teammembers. Any support teammember in GW needs to learn how to kite to get rid of attacking mobs.
Some players are so brainwashed by this tank and spank gameplay that they are not even aware of other possibilities.
EDIT: oops quoted wrong person, time for coffee