I never said SWG was SOE's only screwup, it just seems to be the only one people refuse to get over.
As for EQ, SOE is not changing the regular subscription servers. Free trials are pointless with free play servers. Station Cash has been in the game for a while now. "Game changing" items are not going to be on the subsciption servers. I don't see the issue here, if anything this is the first time SOE has done something right...
Perhaps it was a bit misleading (my misunderstanding or poor wording?) when you said that you have seen people who never played swg, but they hate soe. It sort of reads that in order to have a negative opinion of soe you must have played swg. Still my comment was meant for more than just yourself, so I said "you guys".
That being said, just go to eq2flames.com if you think the nge is the only thing people have long memories about with soe. As I said earlier, the nge is just so massive it dwarfs everything else and people tend to focus on it and miss everything else soe does.
As for EQ2, you can try to rationalize it all you want, but there is change already happening on the live servers.
To begin with, removing the free trials is just a shitty thing to do. The live servers are already suffering population decline and removing anything that might help, not matter how slight, is a terrible thing to do to players. Especially when it is in reponse to hearing the desires of your customers! Players said no (for like the 1934031725th time) to full blown cash shops, so this was how soe repaid the customers for being honest. I don't think they players knew it was an either or option being presented by soe.
Now if you really think that EQ2 has not or will not change, just look at the current game update. Soe has already changed away from making more high level content to focusing on new player experience (the NPE if you will). Soe is making changes to EQ2X that are flowing over into the live game. Such as massively scaling down particle effects, chaning animations, redoing the UI, planning to revamp the classes (again), adding station cash directly to the ingame NPC vendors (something they said would never be done), etc. This is all being done to ramp up for the EQ2X service.
Players are begging for itemizaion, lag, pvp fixes, content, etc. See topic of the thread for relevance.
Again, this is in direct response to players saying no to full blown cash shops on the live servers. SOEs answer was to remove development time (paid for by their subscription dollars) and use it to create something they said they did not want. Think about that for a second. EQ2 players are losing content so that soe can make something they clearly said they do not want.
So yes, it is having an effect on the live game. Just like balancing raids and encounters will be affected by the F2P self rez potions and self cure potions. Both games are going to share one identical code base so whatever effects one will effect that other.
All of this is in direct support of the thread title.
SOE gets so much poor word of mouth references, because they give players so many reasons to.
I respect this post 100%.
As for my comment on people hating SOE even though they didn't play SWG, they claimed to hait it BECAUSE of SWG. Don't ask me, lmao.
Ignoring the hate, ignoring the tears - the comparison between RealID and NGE/CU is worlds apart. Blizzard faced serious civil and criminal action based upon the possible outcome of using RealID. SOE, like many companies, have done as they please. Not sure if anybody has noticed or not, but neither Sony nor SOE went out of business because of NGE/CU, did they?
I mean, honestly, you know that Blizzard did not listen to the community - they listened to their legal department.
Sony may also have listened to their legal department. The NGE rendered features in a brand new, paid expansion useless. Lots of people complained that they never would have purchased the expansion had they been informed that it was going to be gutted in 2 weeks time. The announcement was made, I believe, the day after the expansion went live. People made allegations of fraud etc.. Sony's response was to make refunds available to those who had purchased the expansion w/o knowledge of the upcoming revamp. I wouldn't be at all surprised if their legal department advised them to go forward with the massive refund campaign.
That said, I think Sony would have been much further ahead if they chose the same approach as Blizzard: do not implement the planned changes. The lead dev on the NGE told us there were backups so that Sony could choose at anytime not to go ahead with the NGE. They went through with it anyways, despite and incredible outpouring of negative feedback during the two week "beta" period.
Regardless of how long ago the NGE happened, it will certainly never be forgotten as a classic example of what not to do to an MMO, nor should it be imo. Reflecting on the past for the purpose of learning, isn't the same as continuing to "cry about it." I believe much can be learned from reviewing catastrophic blunders with an open mind. I also think that Blizzard's recent response to its community is the exact opposite of what SOE did. I think there's much to be learned from this as well: "listening to your paying customers is a good idea. Throwing them under the bus is not." I take it that this is the OP's point; I think it's constructive, and I'm inclined to agree.
OP clearly wasn't on the forums back with pre-cu SWG else he would have known that SOE listened to the community.
The issue was that SOE listened to the community that wasn't playing SWG, if SOE how ever listened to those of us actually playing SWG and enjoying it they knew they had to fix the things not working as we the players didn't ask for a complete change of the game. One thing EVERYONE knew at the time is that there had to come a change to the game but more so as in a fixing change, even before the CU lots and lots of people started to leave the game
It was the loud forum whiners that wanted SWG to be more ionic, it was the community on the forums that where loud about jedi being to hard, it was the community on the forums who felt there where to many classes, we who enjoyed housing should forget it in SWG and play the Sims as was said many times when someone made a constructive topic about how some of the housing feature's could be fixed....... etc....etc.......
Again we the actuall players also had issue's with the game, but unfortunaly we got snowed under by those loud people who already left the game......
And I will agree with Arc on HOW the change was placed which was all wrong of SOE but that doesn't leave out the fact that SOE did listen to the community, unfortunaly for us they listened to the wrong part of the community.......
People who were posting on the swg forums were paying subscribers. Those are people soe has almost never ever listened to. Most players back then just wanted the ground game to work, some more content and a little balance in the classes. Jedi was something soe rushed in to fill the content void in the game.
Soe spent the majority of their development time on two things in swg. The first was developing anything they could charge for, which was expansions. Even when soe asked the players what they wanted soe to work on and the players overwhelmingly responded the combat revamp, soe pulled almost the entire live team to work on jump to light speed.
The second focus of soe was on things they thought would bring in new players. Again see jump to light speed and the combat upgrade which went in the opposite direction of what players were asking for.
Soe spent very little time directly addressing their current player base. This is the height of when soe was flying the "we know what players really want, more than players know what they want" flag.
I also think they listened to their focus group(s) that according to one of the NGE devs included no current players of SWG. It seemed that they were more interested in the feedback of people not playing the game around NGE time. What they did was dramatically increase the amount of people not playing the game it appears lol. How ironic is that?
I'm not sure how discussing the history, present and future of the genre means someone did not move on. I enjoy discussing mmos and soe frequently finds their way into headlines and topics.
On the flip side, soe has no problems spamming me with "hey come back, see what we have changed", so I do and I keep finding out nothing has changed. Someday they might change their practices. Until that day I can only keep informed and be realisitic about current situations.
One does not need to turn a blind eye to move on or whatever it is you are trying to say.
That is a wonderful response to the "move on" crowd.
SOE certainly hasn't forgotten the past. Yet burned former players are expected to do so?
I also think they listened to their focus group(s) that according to one of the NGE devs included no current players of SWG. It seemed that they were more interested in the feedback of people not playing the game around NGE time. What they did was dramatically increase the amount of people not playing the game it appears lol. How ironic is that?
I swear I remember someone on the Oforums mention that the focus group application had an "18 and under" tag. I freely admit I could be wrong on this but I would swear I remember someone bringing this up back in the day.
I also think they listened to their focus group(s) that according to one of the NGE devs included no current players of SWG. It seemed that they were more interested in the feedback of people not playing the game around NGE time. What they did was dramatically increase the amount of people not playing the game it appears lol. How ironic is that?
I swear I remember someone on the Oforums mention that the focus group application had an "18 and under" tag. I freely admit I could be wrong on this but I would swear I remember someone bringing this up back in the day.
i wouldnt be surprised.
they wanted the under 18s who were freshly graduated from counter strike and the clone wars animated cartoons.
didnt nancy "too much reading" macintyre get a job in leapfrog later?
People who were posting on the swg forums were paying subscribers. Those are people soe has almost never ever listened to. Most players back then just wanted the ground game to work, some more content and a little balance in the classes. Jedi was something soe rushed in to fill the content void in the game.
Soe spent the majority of their development time on two things in swg. The first was developing anything they could charge for, which was expansions. Even when soe asked the players what they wanted soe to work on and the players overwhelmingly responded the combat revamp, soe pulled almost the entire live team to work on jump to light speed.
The second focus of soe was on things they thought would bring in new players. Again see jump to light speed and the combat upgrade which went in the opposite direction of what players were asking for.
Soe spent very little time directly addressing their current player base. This is the height of when soe was flying the "we know what players really want, more than players know what they want" flag.
From the quote above, this is a fantastic summary of the forum feedback that SOE simply never seemed to accurately interpret: "Most players back then just wanted the ground game to work, some more content and a little balance in the classes."
This seemed to be a very dominant theme in the early days/months of the game. SOE never seemed to see this theme for what it was. Why not? Beats me. The disconnect between players and SOE has always baffled me. It seems like such an chasm. It's wierd.
Can people like you (OP and all you other weasels) get over NGE please?
What a bunch of freekin' drama queens. It happened YEARS AGO...and in a game no less.
A wrong was done and should never be forgotten.
From what I can tell, the "drama" has died down substantially for most players. That doesn't mean that we don't learn from a past experience. When I'm going to pay money to someone, I want some indication of whether or not I'm going to get good service. I think the best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour. If I want to pay for an MMO experience, I'll look for a company with a good track record. They need to have a history of making games that work and are enjoyable. They need to be straightforward about what the game is going to cost me, instead of having layers of hidden fees. They need to be honest about the direction the game is taking, and they need to value customer feedback.
Right now, on the basis of those criteria, I personally like the looks of WoW and EVE better than most other games available. I've also heard good things from friends about Guild Wars.
With SOE, I can't help thinking about SWG, EQ2, Matrix Online and Vanguard. The history doesn't fill me with confidence. Little or no confidence in the brand means I'm not likely to spend money on their stuff. That's basic economics.
Comments
I respect this post 100%.
As for my comment on people hating SOE even though they didn't play SWG, they claimed to hait it BECAUSE of SWG. Don't ask me, lmao.
Total MMOs played: 274|Enjoyed: 9. >:|
Sony may also have listened to their legal department. The NGE rendered features in a brand new, paid expansion useless. Lots of people complained that they never would have purchased the expansion had they been informed that it was going to be gutted in 2 weeks time. The announcement was made, I believe, the day after the expansion went live. People made allegations of fraud etc.. Sony's response was to make refunds available to those who had purchased the expansion w/o knowledge of the upcoming revamp. I wouldn't be at all surprised if their legal department advised them to go forward with the massive refund campaign.
That said, I think Sony would have been much further ahead if they chose the same approach as Blizzard: do not implement the planned changes. The lead dev on the NGE told us there were backups so that Sony could choose at anytime not to go ahead with the NGE. They went through with it anyways, despite and incredible outpouring of negative feedback during the two week "beta" period.
Regardless of how long ago the NGE happened, it will certainly never be forgotten as a classic example of what not to do to an MMO, nor should it be imo. Reflecting on the past for the purpose of learning, isn't the same as continuing to "cry about it." I believe much can be learned from reviewing catastrophic blunders with an open mind. I also think that Blizzard's recent response to its community is the exact opposite of what SOE did. I think there's much to be learned from this as well: "listening to your paying customers is a good idea. Throwing them under the bus is not." I take it that this is the OP's point; I think it's constructive, and I'm inclined to agree.
OP clearly wasn't on the forums back with pre-cu SWG else he would have known that SOE listened to the community.
The issue was that SOE listened to the community that wasn't playing SWG, if SOE how ever listened to those of us actually playing SWG and enjoying it they knew they had to fix the things not working as we the players didn't ask for a complete change of the game. One thing EVERYONE knew at the time is that there had to come a change to the game but more so as in a fixing change, even before the CU lots and lots of people started to leave the game
It was the loud forum whiners that wanted SWG to be more ionic, it was the community on the forums that where loud about jedi being to hard, it was the community on the forums who felt there where to many classes, we who enjoyed housing should forget it in SWG and play the Sims as was said many times when someone made a constructive topic about how some of the housing feature's could be fixed....... etc....etc.......
Again we the actuall players also had issue's with the game, but unfortunaly we got snowed under by those loud people who already left the game......
And I will agree with Arc on HOW the change was placed which was all wrong of SOE but that doesn't leave out the fact that SOE did listen to the community, unfortunaly for us they listened to the wrong part of the community.......
People who were posting on the swg forums were paying subscribers. Those are people soe has almost never ever listened to. Most players back then just wanted the ground game to work, some more content and a little balance in the classes. Jedi was something soe rushed in to fill the content void in the game.
Soe spent the majority of their development time on two things in swg. The first was developing anything they could charge for, which was expansions. Even when soe asked the players what they wanted soe to work on and the players overwhelmingly responded the combat revamp, soe pulled almost the entire live team to work on jump to light speed.
The second focus of soe was on things they thought would bring in new players. Again see jump to light speed and the combat upgrade which went in the opposite direction of what players were asking for.
Soe spent very little time directly addressing their current player base. This is the height of when soe was flying the "we know what players really want, more than players know what they want" flag.
I also think they listened to their focus group(s) that according to one of the NGE devs included no current players of SWG. It seemed that they were more interested in the feedback of people not playing the game around NGE time. What they did was dramatically increase the amount of people not playing the game it appears lol. How ironic is that?
That is a wonderful response to the "move on" crowd.
SOE certainly hasn't forgotten the past. Yet burned former players are expected to do so?
I swear I remember someone on the Oforums mention that the focus group application had an "18 and under" tag. I freely admit I could be wrong on this but I would swear I remember someone bringing this up back in the day.
i wouldnt be surprised.
they wanted the under 18s who were freshly graduated from counter strike and the clone wars animated cartoons.
didnt nancy "too much reading" macintyre get a job in leapfrog later?
obviously she had an affinity to little children.
its amazing how a game like swg can touch the soul of so many.this is like moaning the death of a loved one.
I'll just let my signature do the talking.
When did you start playing "old school" MMO's. World Of Warcraft?
It really was ahead of its time in many ways, and sadly, also released before its time.
Plus, there has been nothing released, remotely like Pre-CU, in the 5 years since it was discarded by SOE.
So, some people still remember and are still upset, these years later.
From the quote above, this is a fantastic summary of the forum feedback that SOE simply never seemed to accurately interpret: "Most players back then just wanted the ground game to work, some more content and a little balance in the classes."
This seemed to be a very dominant theme in the early days/months of the game. SOE never seemed to see this theme for what it was. Why not? Beats me. The disconnect between players and SOE has always baffled me. It seems like such an chasm. It's wierd.
A wrong was done and should never be forgotten.
<imgsrc="http://files1.guildlaunch.net/guild/library/86975/Black_Fire.jpg">;
<ahref="http://profile.xfire.com/aetiuslonginus"><img src="http://miniprofile.xfire.com/bg/sh/type/2/aetiuslonginus.png"; width="450" height="34" /></a>
From what I can tell, the "drama" has died down substantially for most players. That doesn't mean that we don't learn from a past experience. When I'm going to pay money to someone, I want some indication of whether or not I'm going to get good service. I think the best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour. If I want to pay for an MMO experience, I'll look for a company with a good track record. They need to have a history of making games that work and are enjoyable. They need to be straightforward about what the game is going to cost me, instead of having layers of hidden fees. They need to be honest about the direction the game is taking, and they need to value customer feedback.
Right now, on the basis of those criteria, I personally like the looks of WoW and EVE better than most other games available. I've also heard good things from friends about Guild Wars.
With SOE, I can't help thinking about SWG, EQ2, Matrix Online and Vanguard. The history doesn't fill me with confidence. Little or no confidence in the brand means I'm not likely to spend money on their stuff. That's basic economics.