Because though historically Marriage was a certain thing and though there are probably societies that follow that historical idea of marriage, in THIS society we now have a concept of marriage for love.
And because people love they have broadened the idea of marriage. Marriage is no longer looked upon as solely a business contract.
I think it's ok to accept the idea that society gets to evolve.
You may have an idea of marriage based off of love. I however do not. I love my girlfriend, and will probably marry her, however the decision to marry has absolutely nothing to do with love on either of our parts. It has to do with whether or not there is a long term benefit to our families, finances, and general well being.
To state that this society has "evolved" is erroneous, and does not respect a viewpoint that is not particular to yourself as it claims that those who do not share your viewpoint are some sort of social evolutionary throwback.
Your post, therefore, is not only erroneous in its premise, but also completely invalidates your previous post where you claim to get along with all viewpoints. This is clearly not the case.
Progressivism itself isnt evil, but it is easily manipulated by evil people as at its heart appeals to the dissatisfaction of a disadvantaged class or classes. This opens the door for those who use progressive ideology in common with rhetoric like opposition, evolution, maturation, racial epithets, and even simple words like growth and progress to manipulate crowds to accomplish evil things while all the while thinking they are doing good.
Progressive Ideaologues and their flocks often fail to take into account that society is always growing, with every idea, word, thought, and action we are moving in some way or another. The fault of the progressive is not that they want something, but rather that they want something RIGHT NOW. Dare we not give in to their impatient demands? Only at our own peril, as the progressive often uses terms like revolution to manipulate those around them, rallying them to whatever cause they happen to find handy.
To use an example of where progressive ideology turns evil:
A man gets into a conflict with another man, during which he states "I am going to snap your big nose." The man had a rather large nose, to be true. It was a dominant feature of the mans face. The man however responds "What? So you hate me because Im Jewish?!"
Nowhere in that exchange was there ever a prior word exchanged about whether or not a person was Jewish. However the progressive trend at the time is that to be Jewish is to be oppressed. This man was using race as a social tool to garner sympathy for the crowd, so that the crowd would gather on his side of the upcoming conflict. Furthermore, he himself was being a racist, as a large nose is not an exclusively Jewish feature, nor do all Jewish individuals posess large nonses.
This is a great article the OP wrote and I couldn't agree more. The problem is that there are just too many immature gamers(age doesn't matter) that like to hide behind the anonymity of the internet. Those same gamers will always be there to whine, flame, troll and try to stop any progress in the evolution of mmo's. A perfect example is the Blizzard Real ID incident recently.
Yes, it was done wrong by Blizzard, but brilliant in it's concept. The majorly sad thing about the incident was that the trolls and griefers of the net whined in unison until they got their way to shut it down without working with Blizzard to instead offer a better solution. Obviously, the whiners got their way and proved that unless devs take a stand and hold their ground, this same event will always prevail.
One issue with the "wish to see MMOs become less 'vanilla' and more 'edgy'" 'edgy' equals risk. Something most bigger MMO companys aren't willing to risk. we all know that MMO's are not cheap to make, so if you are looking for return ASAP, you don't make an edgy MMO.. you make a vanilla one that's known to already work.
I'm for inclusiveness of everyone, not for the minority, I mean for everyone. I don't want politics thrust in my face either or real world issues, I want escapism and I want fun.
Having limited marriage options is bringing in real world issues, who said Orcs don't engage in same sex marriage, none of the Orcs I know that's for sure
RoM has broadened the appeal and taken away petty restrictions to bonuses with its implementation of 'marriage', that's a good thing right?
It's all about games people, lighten up and let people have choices that you can choose to ignore. I'm not for ridiculous body alterations that allows the immature to populate the world with grotesques but I am in for any breadth of options that fits within the lore - whether that's skin colour or gender options.
Stamping your ideals of what something should be based on your real world views really shouldn't have a place in game design, it should be all about the fantasy.
This is a great article the OP wrote and I couldn't agree more. The problem is that there are just too many immature gamers(age doesn't matter) that like to hide behind the anonymity of the internet. Those same gamers will always be there to whine, flame, troll and try to stop any progress in the evolution of mmo's. A perfect example is the Blizzard Real ID incident recently.
Yes, it was done wrong by Blizzard, but brilliant in it's concept. The majorly sad thing about the incident was that the trolls and griefers of the net whined in unison until they got their way to shut it down without working with Blizzard to instead offer a better solution. Obviously, the whiners got their way and proved that unless devs take a stand and hold their ground, this same event will always prevail.
A prime example of progressive ideology using buzz words like "immature" to categorize those who do not agree with a pet cause.
Perhaps its not anonymity that allows people to act as they do over the internet. Perhaps it is the lack of consequence! Unless you are willing to march on over to every griefers house and put them in their place, I suggest getting used to people acting out on the internet.
Should you be willing to do the long march, please send me a PM. I will gladly escort you to the first griefer home of your choice, hand you whatever implements of consequence you desire (free of charge), and observe as you teach this person that being a jerk online can have real life consequences.
Then of course, I will pick up my instrument of education, and I will teach you that there is always a bigger fish in the sea, and sometimes its best to simply swallow ones pride and move on with life!
It's sad that this thread has quickly turned in to the right bashing the left, as if inclusiveness belongs only to the left.
The anger and vitriol obviously shows that people can only handle fantasy gaming when it sticks within limited confines of what they believe is right (on all side of the political spectrum), it doesn't bode well for the future of fantasy and goes to show how high the risk once the most vocal feel threatened. It's a big risk for a company to take, I'm gonna keep an eye on RoM just to see how that story progresses.
"You are obviously confusing a mature rating with actual maturity." -Asherman
Maybe MMO is not your genre, go play Modern Warfare...or something you can be all twitchy...and rank up all night. This is seriously getting tired. -Ranyr
Because though historically Marriage was a certain thing and though there are probably societies that follow that historical idea of marriage, in THIS society we now have a concept of marriage for love.
And because people love they have broadened the idea of marriage. Marriage is no longer looked upon as solely a business contract.
I think it's ok to accept the idea that society gets to evolve.
You may have an idea of marriage based off of love. I however do not. I love my girlfriend, and will probably marry her, however the decision to marry has absolutely nothing to do with love on either of our parts. It has to do with whether or not there is a long term benefit to our families, finances, and general well being.
To state that this society has "evolved" is erroneous, and does not respect a viewpoint that is not particular to yourself as it claims that those who do not share your viewpoint are some sort of social evolutionary throwback.
Your post, therefore, is not only erroneous in its premise, but also completely invalidates your previous post where you claim to get along with all viewpoints. This is clearly not the case.
Nothing of the sort. Did I say anything that invalidated my respecting other belief systems?
I answered your question. That question was that society has expanded its idea of marriage to include love.
Nor do I challenge your reasons to marry your girlfriend, no matter what they are. If you said you loved your girlfriend but would only consider marrying her if a hedgehog saw its shadow 4 years in a row then I would say fine, more power to you.
But to my original point, no matter how one views marriage, if it is to be included in a game then it should be allowed to manifest itself in all the varied ways that it might.
So if players want to be all "role play" about it and merge their lands through a marriage contract, so be it. If 3 people in game want to marry each other simultaneously then so be it. If two people of the same sex want to marry in game then so be it.
However, inlcuding an actual marriage game mechanic that excludes people because of someone else's predisposed beliefs of what marriage is about doesn't seem fair to me. One could build it into the lore that dark elves never marry light elves, etc but when one starts talking about same sex or polygamous marriage people start to take notice as that reverberates through actual real people's beliefs.
So sure, if a game wants to include marriage and only marraige between TWO people of DIFFERENT sexes then that is the devs right. But people are going to be more inclined to question that as being more about exclusivity to a certain belief system than lore reasons.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Because though historically Marriage was a certain thing and though there are probably societies that follow that historical idea of marriage, in THIS society we now have a concept of marriage for love.
And because people love they have broadened the idea of marriage. Marriage is no longer looked upon as solely a business contract.
I think it's ok to accept the idea that society gets to evolve.
You may have an idea of marriage based off of love. I however do not. I love my girlfriend, and will probably marry her, however the decision to marry has absolutely nothing to do with love on either of our parts. It has to do with whether or not there is a long term benefit to our families, finances, and general well being.
To state that this society has "evolved" is erroneous, and does not respect a viewpoint that is not particular to yourself as it claims that those who do not share your viewpoint are some sort of social evolutionary throwback.
Your post, therefore, is not only erroneous in its premise, but also completely invalidates your previous post where you claim to get along with all viewpoints. This is clearly not the case.
That highlighted bit there....
Would be nice if I too could marry to take care of long term benefits for MY family, finances, and general well being. Yeah, that's pretty much not "inclusive." Of course there was also a time when there were racial rules about marriage too. Only some people's families and children deserve those long term benefits, and well being and what not, huh?
I think marriage is defined between the two people that are in union, in part, but the law does define the legal aspects of said contract and decides who they want to exclude from having those "benefits," or as I see them....rights.
And on the marriage in games topic....either make it non gender specific or don't have it at all. You'd think that at least games could not be prejudicial and exclusive, since the real world doesn't seem to want to evolve to seeing all of humanity as "one people" stuck on "one marble" together in the sky, who all bleed blood and have the same emotions. If you want to delude yourself into thinking that isn't the case....go right ahead. But the more you exclude others....the more you risk that coming right back to your court some day. Open the door to taking one religion's rights away (or race, or gender, or whatever minority you want to fill in here)....you open the door to yours being taken. Same with any other people group you want to try to exclude. It only makes it that much easier later for YOU to be the one excluded. Why can't we at least learn that in games and be more accepting of diversity? Is it REALLY all that difficult??
I enjoyed reading the article and anyone that reminds me I've not watched a Jean-Luc Godard movie in too long deserves a cookie.
I agree with Kyleran that the most compelling aspect discussed, for me, was with players being given more ways to make lasting and meaningful contributions to the in-game world (letting players voice their petitions and grievances is good but moving away from the virtual world set in stone would be better in my opinion).
With regard to the other subjects discussed in the article - I'm all for players having more choice.
However it was not clear to me exactly what sort of things you have in mind when you say the genre is too restricted by politics at the end of the article. Some examples here could have helped a lot in conveying what you meant as I think a lot of people that have posted strong views in the thread may have the wrong end of the stick (I could be wrong though).
EDIT: Oh my mistake, "It's All About Politics" was the sub-title for your conclusion rather than a separate section of the article. Perhaps it's because I'm not in America but most of what you seem to consider hot political topics wouldn't even make it on to my radar which is probably why I thought this part of the article was vague.
Because though historically Marriage was a certain thing and though there are probably societies that follow that historical idea of marriage, in THIS society we now have a concept of marriage for love.
And because people love they have broadened the idea of marriage. Marriage is no longer looked upon as solely a business contract.
I think it's ok to accept the idea that society gets to evolve.
You may have an idea of marriage based off of love. I however do not. I love my girlfriend, and will probably marry her, however the decision to marry has absolutely nothing to do with love on either of our parts. It has to do with whether or not there is a long term benefit to our families, finances, and general well being.
To state that this society has "evolved" is erroneous, and does not respect a viewpoint that is not particular to yourself as it claims that those who do not share your viewpoint are some sort of social evolutionary throwback.
Your post, therefore, is not only erroneous in its premise, but also completely invalidates your previous post where you claim to get along with all viewpoints. This is clearly not the case.
Nothing of the sort. Did I say anything that invalidated my respecting other belief systems?
Yes, you did. You claimed that your belief was in line with social evolution, which immediately means that my belief must no longer posess relevancy as the great evolution has occurred. We must now all move forward to meet it.
I believe your opinion differs from mine on how society best operates. Notice the difference. Nowhere in my belief did I claim superiority over yours with the clever use of words and concepts like evoution, progress, and/or growth. That is offering due respect. Anything else is merely a farce. Offer a concrete belief. State your case with facts. Wait for a counter. Score appropriately. Hooray for high school debate. At least I got something out of freshman year other than a trash can and a de-pantsing. :-)
I did not however read the rest of your post, as I surmised that it was expounding upon this original point. I may be wrong, but thats where the old saying comes from "Always put your best foot forward." You started on a weak point, and as a result I didnt listen.
I'll admit I saw a bit of the lefty rainbows and unicorns in the post. I think the parts to do with social activism and such, ughh just please noooooooo don't add thes in games. Games are meant as escapism and hopefully give some immersion where you don't think about the troubles of reality for awhile.
The first part to do with races, genders and all that though I completely agree with. But I don't think of that in the happy lah lah everyone gets along and accepts each other way of thinking. I think of it more as yes give us some truly alien and non-human races. That may or may not work in the way we do for reproduction, that may have societies and values that differ wildly from ours. Where anytime certain races they just may instantly devolve into arguing or even fighting to the death over their differences. Like it or not humanities history is written primarily in blood and conflict so why not include some more of that in MMOs as well? So long as we are all mature enough to handle it.
All the above said I should note that I am quite socially liberal, I really don't give a damn who marries who or how many people they marry or almost anything else related to personal freedom. If you are not hurting someone else with what you are doing, why should I care? We should all respect each other and be polite, but that doesn't mean we need to approve of everyone elses decisions or cheer them. We are also free to disagree with what they chose and are free to voice that disagreement. I just don't think we should infringe on others basic rights to do whatever the xxxx they want if they are not hurting other people via their choices. In an MMO especially, who really cares? If you don't like the big amorphous sexless blob with 10 wings then just don't play with them? pretty simple
Seriously you can't butcher lore because of political correctness. Should we have african, european and asiatic trolls and taurens? Green color doesn't represent everybody I guess.
And what about "Give players the options to attach on, or manually size and shape, their naturally given goods". There are kids who play these games too.
Why do you want politics in a game. Don't we have enough of it already in rl? We deal with politic because we have to not because we want to and you want it inside one of the few forms of entertainment most of us have?
All the above said I should note that I am quite socially liberal, I really don't give a damn who marries who or how many people they marry or almost anything else related to personal freedom. If you are not hurting someone else with what you are doing, why should I care? We should all respect each other and be polite, but that doesn't mean we need to approve of everyone elses decisions or cheer them. We are also free to disagree with what they chose and are free to voice that disagreement. I just don't think we should infringe on others basic rights to do whatever the xxxx they want if they are not hurting other people via their choices. In an MMO especially, who really cares? If you don't like the big amorphous sexless blob with 10 wings then just don't play with them? pretty simple
I couldn't agree more.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I've had game avatars that were not as "white" as me and the only flak I took for it was from real life family members. No one in game gave a royal rip one way or the other what my character's skin color was, they only cared if I could heal them, produce enough DPS to kill what needed killed, or tank well enough to hold agrro and keep the group alive. My character's appearance meant little or nothing to anyone in the game. But then, that was only my personal experience. I'm sure others have had different experiences.
I have also, as a straight woman in real life, married characters in game who were the same sex as my character (SWG also allows this, or used to). No one cared one way or the other about that, either except for the one or two players who happened to be gay in real life who thought it was cool that two people who were heterosexual in real life would be un-bigoted enough in the game setting to marry their same sex characters to one another.
But the reality is this: if I want to deal with politics, racism, bigotry and other idiocy in my gaming, that's my choice...not the developers'. If I choose a game that allows me to make a character that is not a Caucasian and I make a character that looks black or Latino or Asian, that's my choice to do so and it's my choice to deal with any negativity that may bring. If I choose to play a game that allows me to become involved in game with a member of the same sex, that is also my choice and it is my choice to deal with any negative reactions that choice may or may not bring. But for a developer to decide to force that upon me is not acceptable to me as a gamer. The fact is, Jamie, I don't want to log into my game of choice and have racism or bigotry crammed down my throat. I don't want to log in and have to "take sides" on a political issue because that's how the quests are written. I don't want to play a Jane McGonigal game in my leisure time - even though I greatly admire what she's doing - and I certainly don't want to pay to do so, because I'm paying for a service and that service is to entertain me...not to force me to take sides or to solve the world's problems in my free time.
What the tone of your column seems to be asking today, Jamie, is "why can't we all agree and get along and why can't we use video games to do that?" The answer is that we don't all agree and we never will. I can accept that there are people in this world that I will never agree with, and I can respect the fact that they have different opinions than I do and respect the fact that they have a right to their opinions just as I do. What I cannot accept or respect is anyone trying to use a service I am paying for to attempt to proselytize me or anyone else, which is very much what it sounds like you would like video game developers and companies to do.
"You are obviously confusing a mature rating with actual maturity." -Asherman
Maybe MMO is not your genre, go play Modern Warfare...or something you can be all twitchy...and rank up all night. This is seriously getting tired. -Ranyr
More choices for players is certainly a worthwhile ideal. I especially like the mentioning of the body-type. There seems to be one body-type available for most characters outside of the superhero games. I suspect it has something to do with how gear is presented graphically. Nice article.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
All the above said I should note that I am quite socially liberal, I really don't give a damn who marries who or how many people they marry or almost anything else related to personal freedom. If you are not hurting someone else with what you are doing, why should I care? We should all respect each other and be polite, but that doesn't mean we need to approve of everyone elses decisions or cheer them. We are also free to disagree with what they chose and are free to voice that disagreement. I just don't think we should infringe on others basic rights to do whatever the xxxx they want if they are not hurting other people via their choices. In an MMO especially, who really cares? If you don't like the big amorphous sexless blob with 10 wings then just don't play with them? pretty simple
I couldn't agree more.
I agree to a point as well. I do not think most of the people posting here do. The point we do not all aggree on is
[quote]Maybe we, as players, don't need change – after all, we seem to be doing well off in a growing gaming industry. There's still room for change, however, and some of us will be happy to welcome it.[/quote]
Room for Change. As if the rest of the community is jut not willing to change. It is not that the rest of the community is not willing to change, it is the "Who determines what CHANGE am I supposed to be happy to welcome?"
Once you start on such a slippery slope you fall from entertainment and enter the realm of social engineering. I want no other THEME in my head other than ORCS are bad, Elves are good. These games we play have clear cut Black and White no shades of gray areas. One side good, the other side not good. Or in the case of DAoC my side good, everyone else bad.
Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.
All the above said I should note that I am quite socially liberal, I really don't give a damn who marries who or how many people they marry or almost anything else related to personal freedom. If you are not hurting someone else with what you are doing, why should I care? We should all respect each other and be polite, but that doesn't mean we need to approve of everyone elses decisions or cheer them. We are also free to disagree with what they chose and are free to voice that disagreement. I just don't think we should infringe on others basic rights to do whatever the xxxx they want if they are not hurting other people via their choices. In an MMO especially, who really cares? If you don't like the big amorphous sexless blob with 10 wings then just don't play with them? pretty simple
I couldn't agree more.
I agree to a point as well. I do not think most of the people posting here do. The point we do not all aggree on is
[quote]Maybe we, as players, don't need change – after all, we seem to be doing well off in a growing gaming industry. There's still room for change, however, and some of us will be happy to welcome it.[/quote]
Room for Change. As if the rest of the community is jut not willing to change. It is not that the rest of the community is not willing to change, it is the "Who determines what CHANGE am I supposed to be happy to welcome?"
Once you start on such a slippery slope you fall from entertainment and enter the realm of social engineering. I want no other THEME in my head other than ORCS are bad, Elves are good. These games we play have clear cut Black and White no shades of gray areas. One side good, the other side not good. Or in the case of DAoC my side good, everyone else bad.
I suppose that is a good point.
My original thought is that for a main stream game I don't want it to exclude real people from doing in game activities because the in game activities are trying to make some sort of social statement one way or another. I would rather keep all social commentary out of a game so that all players can feel free to enjoy it without having to question the game play.
Having said that, in the interest of fairness, I suppose if a game company wanted to make a game that was all about some sort of social commentary toward any belief system then that would and should be their right as well.
As long as the game company is clear about what the game is "about" then who would I be to say they couldn't and shouldn 't do it?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
As I sometimes do, I will remind people that I often play devil's advocate. I am, actually, rather amused at some of the political assumptions made of me already, even though I've played off these changes as being unnecessary and sensitive in the developer-player-investory relationship.
Would many players welcome the changes? Sure- many have asked for them. This is only list of some of the ideas players have suggested in a way to be more "progressive" in today's world, by being more welcoming to minority cultures and ideas. I actually like some of these ideas myself, but possibly for different reasons than you may imagine.
I think, however, there is plenty of room for depth in our games. They tend to be too shallow, too mimicky, too much boom and not enough thought (and I'm not talking about skill in game play). The more controversial options and lore that a game developer provides the player, the more intense a game can become. Of course, too, intensity can be a bad thing.
Also, perhaps I'm confused, but it seems several of you are both saying "let people do whatever they want" and "don't cram this down my throat by making it part of my game" in the same breath. How can people do whatever they want if the game doesn't let them; and if the game lets them, how does it cram it down your throat?
Also, perhaps I'm confused, but it seems several of you are both saying "let people do whatever they want" and "don't cram this down my throat by making it part of my game" in the same breath. How can people do whatever they want if the game doesn't let them; and if the game lets them, how does it cram it down your throat?
For my thought it comes to a game by game basis.
My preference is that players should be able to do whatever they want within the context of the game world and its internal laws.
However, there might very well be games that do cram things down your throat one way or another and long and short of it is that they need to be allowed to exist. As long as the game is clear on what it is about and what it offers then those who desire that style or theme of game play can have it and those that don't can steer clear.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I find it funny that there are a couple people using this thread as a means to push their opposition of same sex marriage, I mean 90% of the posts in this thread are on that issue. Clearly in all of gaming and MMOs, that is the big issue to tackle and to argue about lol.
The ones saying how bad it is to include that option in a game have also said by doing so it would tear the game apart due to the arguing over that point. Really? Asheron's Call has had in game marriage for year and years and years. There is no restriction on it, anyone can get married to anyone whether they are the same gender or not, whether they are a metallic golem which looks like a robot getting married to an ethereal shadow creature. No one cares, because it is just a game and it doesn't matter. It never hurt the game and it never helped it, because it is in game marriage and it doesn't matter.
I also highly doubt they did it to push any kind of view, as certain poster in this thread think such a device would be used for. I would guess it is purely because it is much more work to put a system in that checks genders/other criteria and then works off of that. Far easier to say player A chooses to marry player B, ok done.
I don't know why a couple people, and one much more so then everyone else, is turning this into a big conservative view on marriage thread. Kind of silly.
The companies making the games have the right to make it how they want and that means including and excluding various things. I in turn have to ability to buy games from companies I agree with and not buy games from companies I disagree with.
Choose to support those you want and not to support those you do not want to. It is the basic rule to being a consumer.
There are breweries I will not support in any way because what they lobby for in congress. There are coffee companies I will not support due to their employment policies. I do not invest in companies with practices I oppose. I choose where my money goes and everyone can do this.
Comments
You may have an idea of marriage based off of love. I however do not. I love my girlfriend, and will probably marry her, however the decision to marry has absolutely nothing to do with love on either of our parts. It has to do with whether or not there is a long term benefit to our families, finances, and general well being.
To state that this society has "evolved" is erroneous, and does not respect a viewpoint that is not particular to yourself as it claims that those who do not share your viewpoint are some sort of social evolutionary throwback.
Your post, therefore, is not only erroneous in its premise, but also completely invalidates your previous post where you claim to get along with all viewpoints. This is clearly not the case.
Laudanum - Romance. Revenge. Revolution.
Crappy, petty people breed and raise crappy, petty kids.
Progressivism itself isnt evil, but it is easily manipulated by evil people as at its heart appeals to the dissatisfaction of a disadvantaged class or classes. This opens the door for those who use progressive ideology in common with rhetoric like opposition, evolution, maturation, racial epithets, and even simple words like growth and progress to manipulate crowds to accomplish evil things while all the while thinking they are doing good.
Progressive Ideaologues and their flocks often fail to take into account that society is always growing, with every idea, word, thought, and action we are moving in some way or another. The fault of the progressive is not that they want something, but rather that they want something RIGHT NOW. Dare we not give in to their impatient demands? Only at our own peril, as the progressive often uses terms like revolution to manipulate those around them, rallying them to whatever cause they happen to find handy.
To use an example of where progressive ideology turns evil:
A man gets into a conflict with another man, during which he states "I am going to snap your big nose." The man had a rather large nose, to be true. It was a dominant feature of the mans face. The man however responds "What? So you hate me because Im Jewish?!"
Nowhere in that exchange was there ever a prior word exchanged about whether or not a person was Jewish. However the progressive trend at the time is that to be Jewish is to be oppressed. This man was using race as a social tool to garner sympathy for the crowd, so that the crowd would gather on his side of the upcoming conflict. Furthermore, he himself was being a racist, as a large nose is not an exclusively Jewish feature, nor do all Jewish individuals posess large nonses.
Laudanum - Romance. Revenge. Revolution.
Crappy, petty people breed and raise crappy, petty kids.
This is a great article the OP wrote and I couldn't agree more. The problem is that there are just too many immature gamers(age doesn't matter) that like to hide behind the anonymity of the internet. Those same gamers will always be there to whine, flame, troll and try to stop any progress in the evolution of mmo's. A perfect example is the Blizzard Real ID incident recently.
Yes, it was done wrong by Blizzard, but brilliant in it's concept. The majorly sad thing about the incident was that the trolls and griefers of the net whined in unison until they got their way to shut it down without working with Blizzard to instead offer a better solution. Obviously, the whiners got their way and proved that unless devs take a stand and hold their ground, this same event will always prevail.
One issue with the "wish to see MMOs become less 'vanilla' and more 'edgy'" 'edgy' equals risk. Something most bigger MMO companys aren't willing to risk. we all know that MMO's are not cheap to make, so if you are looking for return ASAP, you don't make an edgy MMO.. you make a vanilla one that's known to already work.
I'm for inclusiveness of everyone, not for the minority, I mean for everyone. I don't want politics thrust in my face either or real world issues, I want escapism and I want fun.
Having limited marriage options is bringing in real world issues, who said Orcs don't engage in same sex marriage, none of the Orcs I know that's for sure
RoM has broadened the appeal and taken away petty restrictions to bonuses with its implementation of 'marriage', that's a good thing right?
It's all about games people, lighten up and let people have choices that you can choose to ignore. I'm not for ridiculous body alterations that allows the immature to populate the world with grotesques but I am in for any breadth of options that fits within the lore - whether that's skin colour or gender options.
Stamping your ideals of what something should be based on your real world views really shouldn't have a place in game design, it should be all about the fantasy.
.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
A prime example of progressive ideology using buzz words like "immature" to categorize those who do not agree with a pet cause.
Perhaps its not anonymity that allows people to act as they do over the internet. Perhaps it is the lack of consequence! Unless you are willing to march on over to every griefers house and put them in their place, I suggest getting used to people acting out on the internet.
Should you be willing to do the long march, please send me a PM. I will gladly escort you to the first griefer home of your choice, hand you whatever implements of consequence you desire (free of charge), and observe as you teach this person that being a jerk online can have real life consequences.
Then of course, I will pick up my instrument of education, and I will teach you that there is always a bigger fish in the sea, and sometimes its best to simply swallow ones pride and move on with life!
Laudanum - Romance. Revenge. Revolution.
Crappy, petty people breed and raise crappy, petty kids.
It's sad that this thread has quickly turned in to the right bashing the left, as if inclusiveness belongs only to the left.
The anger and vitriol obviously shows that people can only handle fantasy gaming when it sticks within limited confines of what they believe is right (on all side of the political spectrum), it doesn't bode well for the future of fantasy and goes to show how high the risk once the most vocal feel threatened. It's a big risk for a company to take, I'm gonna keep an eye on RoM just to see how that story progresses.
Firebrand Art
"You are obviously confusing a mature rating with actual maturity." -Asherman
Maybe MMO is not your genre, go play Modern Warfare...or something you can be all twitchy...and rank up all night. This is seriously getting tired. -Ranyr
Nothing of the sort. Did I say anything that invalidated my respecting other belief systems?
I answered your question. That question was that society has expanded its idea of marriage to include love.
Nor do I challenge your reasons to marry your girlfriend, no matter what they are. If you said you loved your girlfriend but would only consider marrying her if a hedgehog saw its shadow 4 years in a row then I would say fine, more power to you.
But to my original point, no matter how one views marriage, if it is to be included in a game then it should be allowed to manifest itself in all the varied ways that it might.
So if players want to be all "role play" about it and merge their lands through a marriage contract, so be it. If 3 people in game want to marry each other simultaneously then so be it. If two people of the same sex want to marry in game then so be it.
However, inlcuding an actual marriage game mechanic that excludes people because of someone else's predisposed beliefs of what marriage is about doesn't seem fair to me. One could build it into the lore that dark elves never marry light elves, etc but when one starts talking about same sex or polygamous marriage people start to take notice as that reverberates through actual real people's beliefs.
So sure, if a game wants to include marriage and only marraige between TWO people of DIFFERENT sexes then that is the devs right. But people are going to be more inclined to question that as being more about exclusivity to a certain belief system than lore reasons.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
That highlighted bit there....
Would be nice if I too could marry to take care of long term benefits for MY family, finances, and general well being. Yeah, that's pretty much not "inclusive." Of course there was also a time when there were racial rules about marriage too. Only some people's families and children deserve those long term benefits, and well being and what not, huh?
I think marriage is defined between the two people that are in union, in part, but the law does define the legal aspects of said contract and decides who they want to exclude from having those "benefits," or as I see them....rights.
And on the marriage in games topic....either make it non gender specific or don't have it at all. You'd think that at least games could not be prejudicial and exclusive, since the real world doesn't seem to want to evolve to seeing all of humanity as "one people" stuck on "one marble" together in the sky, who all bleed blood and have the same emotions. If you want to delude yourself into thinking that isn't the case....go right ahead. But the more you exclude others....the more you risk that coming right back to your court some day. Open the door to taking one religion's rights away (or race, or gender, or whatever minority you want to fill in here)....you open the door to yours being taken. Same with any other people group you want to try to exclude. It only makes it that much easier later for YOU to be the one excluded. Why can't we at least learn that in games and be more accepting of diversity? Is it REALLY all that difficult??
I enjoyed reading the article and anyone that reminds me I've not watched a Jean-Luc Godard movie in too long deserves a cookie.
I agree with Kyleran that the most compelling aspect discussed, for me, was with players being given more ways to make lasting and meaningful contributions to the in-game world (letting players voice their petitions and grievances is good but moving away from the virtual world set in stone would be better in my opinion).
With regard to the other subjects discussed in the article - I'm all for players having more choice.
However it was not clear to me exactly what sort of things you have in mind when you say the genre is too restricted by politics at the end of the article. Some examples here could have helped a lot in conveying what you meant as I think a lot of people that have posted strong views in the thread may have the wrong end of the stick (I could be wrong though).
EDIT: Oh my mistake, "It's All About Politics" was the sub-title for your conclusion rather than a separate section of the article. Perhaps it's because I'm not in America but most of what you seem to consider hot political topics wouldn't even make it on to my radar which is probably why I thought this part of the article was vague.
Yes, you did. You claimed that your belief was in line with social evolution, which immediately means that my belief must no longer posess relevancy as the great evolution has occurred. We must now all move forward to meet it.
I believe your opinion differs from mine on how society best operates. Notice the difference. Nowhere in my belief did I claim superiority over yours with the clever use of words and concepts like evoution, progress, and/or growth. That is offering due respect. Anything else is merely a farce. Offer a concrete belief. State your case with facts. Wait for a counter. Score appropriately. Hooray for high school debate. At least I got something out of freshman year other than a trash can and a de-pantsing. :-)
I did not however read the rest of your post, as I surmised that it was expounding upon this original point. I may be wrong, but thats where the old saying comes from "Always put your best foot forward." You started on a weak point, and as a result I didnt listen.
Laudanum - Romance. Revenge. Revolution.
Crappy, petty people breed and raise crappy, petty kids.
I'll admit I saw a bit of the lefty rainbows and unicorns in the post. I think the parts to do with social activism and such, ughh just please noooooooo don't add thes in games. Games are meant as escapism and hopefully give some immersion where you don't think about the troubles of reality for awhile.
The first part to do with races, genders and all that though I completely agree with. But I don't think of that in the happy lah lah everyone gets along and accepts each other way of thinking. I think of it more as yes give us some truly alien and non-human races. That may or may not work in the way we do for reproduction, that may have societies and values that differ wildly from ours. Where anytime certain races they just may instantly devolve into arguing or even fighting to the death over their differences. Like it or not humanities history is written primarily in blood and conflict so why not include some more of that in MMOs as well? So long as we are all mature enough to handle it.
All the above said I should note that I am quite socially liberal, I really don't give a damn who marries who or how many people they marry or almost anything else related to personal freedom. If you are not hurting someone else with what you are doing, why should I care? We should all respect each other and be polite, but that doesn't mean we need to approve of everyone elses decisions or cheer them. We are also free to disagree with what they chose and are free to voice that disagreement. I just don't think we should infringe on others basic rights to do whatever the xxxx they want if they are not hurting other people via their choices. In an MMO especially, who really cares? If you don't like the big amorphous sexless blob with 10 wings then just don't play with them? pretty simple
You know what's funny? Homosexual orcs.
Seriously you can't butcher lore because of political correctness. Should we have african, european and asiatic trolls and taurens? Green color doesn't represent everybody I guess.
And what about "Give players the options to attach on, or manually size and shape, their naturally given goods". There are kids who play these games too.
Why do you want politics in a game. Don't we have enough of it already in rl? We deal with politic because we have to not because we want to and you want it inside one of the few forms of entertainment most of us have?
I couldn't agree more.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Jamie, today's column is just...odd.
I've had game avatars that were not as "white" as me and the only flak I took for it was from real life family members. No one in game gave a royal rip one way or the other what my character's skin color was, they only cared if I could heal them, produce enough DPS to kill what needed killed, or tank well enough to hold agrro and keep the group alive. My character's appearance meant little or nothing to anyone in the game. But then, that was only my personal experience. I'm sure others have had different experiences.
I have also, as a straight woman in real life, married characters in game who were the same sex as my character (SWG also allows this, or used to). No one cared one way or the other about that, either except for the one or two players who happened to be gay in real life who thought it was cool that two people who were heterosexual in real life would be un-bigoted enough in the game setting to marry their same sex characters to one another.
But the reality is this: if I want to deal with politics, racism, bigotry and other idiocy in my gaming, that's my choice...not the developers'. If I choose a game that allows me to make a character that is not a Caucasian and I make a character that looks black or Latino or Asian, that's my choice to do so and it's my choice to deal with any negativity that may bring. If I choose to play a game that allows me to become involved in game with a member of the same sex, that is also my choice and it is my choice to deal with any negative reactions that choice may or may not bring. But for a developer to decide to force that upon me is not acceptable to me as a gamer. The fact is, Jamie, I don't want to log into my game of choice and have racism or bigotry crammed down my throat. I don't want to log in and have to "take sides" on a political issue because that's how the quests are written. I don't want to play a Jane McGonigal game in my leisure time - even though I greatly admire what she's doing - and I certainly don't want to pay to do so, because I'm paying for a service and that service is to entertain me...not to force me to take sides or to solve the world's problems in my free time.
What the tone of your column seems to be asking today, Jamie, is "why can't we all agree and get along and why can't we use video games to do that?" The answer is that we don't all agree and we never will. I can accept that there are people in this world that I will never agree with, and I can respect the fact that they have different opinions than I do and respect the fact that they have a right to their opinions just as I do. What I cannot accept or respect is anyone trying to use a service I am paying for to attempt to proselytize me or anyone else, which is very much what it sounds like you would like video game developers and companies to do.
Firebrand Art
"You are obviously confusing a mature rating with actual maturity." -Asherman
Maybe MMO is not your genre, go play Modern Warfare...or something you can be all twitchy...and rank up all night. This is seriously getting tired. -Ranyr
More choices for players is certainly a worthwhile ideal. I especially like the mentioning of the body-type. There seems to be one body-type available for most characters outside of the superhero games. I suspect it has something to do with how gear is presented graphically. Nice article.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
I agree to a point as well. I do not think most of the people posting here do. The point we do not all aggree on is
[quote]Maybe we, as players, don't need change – after all, we seem to be doing well off in a growing gaming industry. There's still room for change, however, and some of us will be happy to welcome it.[/quote]
Room for Change. As if the rest of the community is jut not willing to change. It is not that the rest of the community is not willing to change, it is the "Who determines what CHANGE am I supposed to be happy to welcome?"
Once you start on such a slippery slope you fall from entertainment and enter the realm of social engineering. I want no other THEME in my head other than ORCS are bad, Elves are good. These games we play have clear cut Black and White no shades of gray areas. One side good, the other side not good. Or in the case of DAoC my side good, everyone else bad.
Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.
I suppose that is a good point.
My original thought is that for a main stream game I don't want it to exclude real people from doing in game activities because the in game activities are trying to make some sort of social statement one way or another. I would rather keep all social commentary out of a game so that all players can feel free to enjoy it without having to question the game play.
Having said that, in the interest of fairness, I suppose if a game company wanted to make a game that was all about some sort of social commentary toward any belief system then that would and should be their right as well.
As long as the game company is clear about what the game is "about" then who would I be to say they couldn't and shouldn 't do it?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
As I sometimes do, I will remind people that I often play devil's advocate. I am, actually, rather amused at some of the political assumptions made of me already, even though I've played off these changes as being unnecessary and sensitive in the developer-player-investory relationship.
Would many players welcome the changes? Sure- many have asked for them. This is only list of some of the ideas players have suggested in a way to be more "progressive" in today's world, by being more welcoming to minority cultures and ideas. I actually like some of these ideas myself, but possibly for different reasons than you may imagine.
I think, however, there is plenty of room for depth in our games. They tend to be too shallow, too mimicky, too much boom and not enough thought (and I'm not talking about skill in game play). The more controversial options and lore that a game developer provides the player, the more intense a game can become. Of course, too, intensity can be a bad thing.
Also, perhaps I'm confused, but it seems several of you are both saying "let people do whatever they want" and "don't cram this down my throat by making it part of my game" in the same breath. How can people do whatever they want if the game doesn't let them; and if the game lets them, how does it cram it down your throat?
For my thought it comes to a game by game basis.
My preference is that players should be able to do whatever they want within the context of the game world and its internal laws.
However, there might very well be games that do cram things down your throat one way or another and long and short of it is that they need to be allowed to exist. As long as the game is clear on what it is about and what it offers then those who desire that style or theme of game play can have it and those that don't can steer clear.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I find it funny that there are a couple people using this thread as a means to push their opposition of same sex marriage, I mean 90% of the posts in this thread are on that issue. Clearly in all of gaming and MMOs, that is the big issue to tackle and to argue about lol.
The ones saying how bad it is to include that option in a game have also said by doing so it would tear the game apart due to the arguing over that point. Really? Asheron's Call has had in game marriage for year and years and years. There is no restriction on it, anyone can get married to anyone whether they are the same gender or not, whether they are a metallic golem which looks like a robot getting married to an ethereal shadow creature. No one cares, because it is just a game and it doesn't matter. It never hurt the game and it never helped it, because it is in game marriage and it doesn't matter.
I also highly doubt they did it to push any kind of view, as certain poster in this thread think such a device would be used for. I would guess it is purely because it is much more work to put a system in that checks genders/other criteria and then works off of that. Far easier to say player A chooses to marry player B, ok done.
I don't know why a couple people, and one much more so then everyone else, is turning this into a big conservative view on marriage thread. Kind of silly.
agreed. and yes GW2 is gonna be sweet, awesome that we will get to play as the charr
The companies making the games have the right to make it how they want and that means including and excluding various things. I in turn have to ability to buy games from companies I agree with and not buy games from companies I disagree with.
Choose to support those you want and not to support those you do not want to. It is the basic rule to being a consumer.
There are breweries I will not support in any way because what they lobby for in congress. There are coffee companies I will not support due to their employment policies. I do not invest in companies with practices I oppose. I choose where my money goes and everyone can do this.