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Its quite funny you stopped considering yourself an Atheist. I can imagine you couldn't handle all the contradictions your narrow minded views had.
The vast majority of the scientific community agrees that homosexuality can not be changed and is not a conscious choice you can control. These scientists have spend far more time researching and investigating this subject than you have. Thats the difference, their view is based upon the results of investigation and studies while yours is based entirely upon irrational religious belief.
You also missed the point about secularism. Basically, the more religious a society is, the higher the crime rates, murder rate etc are.
None of my accusations have lost their validity. Your arguments that homosexuality is a choice is irrational, saying that Enigma is following a backwards lifestyle is bigotry and your rejection of facts is ignorance.
I stopped considering myself an Atheist when I concluded that science will never be able to explain some things and that we live in quite an irrational existence. The only way to explain it is with an irrational answer like a "God."
Actually they haven't given it serious research... they quite avoid it to be honest. Because of the downwards spiral of our society into moral anarchy they are not making serious efforts to prove that an individual is ultimately responsible for who they wish to be with...rather, random people and institutions have to fulfill that task and since they do not have the proper research or knowledge to guide an individual through the process of changing their sexual orientation it would most likely have failed. Until serious efforts are made in this regard, we will be stuck in this downwards spiral until we start considering the righteousness of things such as rape and incest.
I absolutely disagree with you about secularism. Note, that if it is a society following a heretical branch of the religion like Protestantism then you are correct as they are distorting the religion to suit their own needs. Christianity is a highly shattered religion and the only valid branch (Eastern Orthodox) isn't very much popular in the Anglosphere.
My argument that homosexuality is a choice withstands, saying Enigma is following a backwards lifestyle is spot-on with theology (and reality, as I so believe) and your accusations that I am rejecting facts is nothing more than unfounded insult.
"Listen, you fuckers, you screwheads. Here is a man who would not take it anymore. A man who stood up against the scum, the cunts, the dogs, the filth, the shit. Here is a man who stood up." - Robert DeNiro
You might not realize it Gameloading, though you are no better than an "ignorant, bigoted religious nutjob" in that you are putting your faith into something unproven. You have faith in the belief that homosexuality is not a choice, even though this is surely not a fact.
I know it can be hard for you to understand, but just because you believe something doesn't make it a fact. That's actually the definition of an opinion.
"Listen, you fuckers, you screwheads. Here is a man who would not take it anymore. A man who stood up against the scum, the cunts, the dogs, the filth, the shit. Here is a man who stood up." - Robert DeNiro
Your arguments are devoid of any facts and is little more than the typical nonsense I have come to expect from Christian fundamentalists. There has actually been an enormous amount of research done on homosexuality and the position that homosexuality is a choice has been largely abandoned not because of a moral agenda but because there is no evidence that homosexuality is a conscious choice. It's funny you accusse scientific organizations for being influenced by their morals when its obvious that your opinion about this subject is deteremined entirely by your religious morals.
You make the (inaccurate) claim that science has not done enough research on this subject. How much scientific research have you done on this subject?
Oh thats right: None, zero. nothing. nada.
I wonder where you have gained the arrogance that you are somehow more informed about this subject than the vast majority of scientists that have done years of research on this subject?
Your claim that my opinion regarding homosexuality is no better than yours is laughable. My opinion is based upon the opinion of the vast majority of the scientific community. Your opinion is based entirely upon irrational religious dogma.
Your claims that Enigma is living a backwards life is bigotry. Your religious belief does not justify your bigotry one bit.
Thank you. Yes, yes it was!
I really wanted to thank you all for standing up for me on this issue.
It really is hard to explain to someone who is a bigot and narrow minded about how I did not have a choice in this matter. Sadly, I am sure he would have rather see me commit suicide than to transition. Homphobes, fundementalists, and racists really do more than just spew out hurtful words.
1 in 4 tgirls commit suicide because of the religious and zealot pressures placed upon them from family and friends. 1 in 1000 homicided are tgirls who are murdered by bigots. Every 34 minutes a bigot attacks and hospitlize a transgendered person.
Many of these hate people think "oh well they deserve it, they shouldnt have tricked the guy." When in reality many TGs are attacked or killed without provocation.
It's nice to see this community is really supportive to the LGTB issues we face. If anything don't be upset over the two bigots here but feel sorry for them. They remind me of those really old people that sit on their porches raising their fists over anything. These haters are usually very lonely too.
It's also refreshing to see the fundamentlist church slowly loosing their grips on our culture. I was sooo blind in the past following such moronic and hateful theology when me, myself struggled being itnersexed. It was the ultimate form of hypocrisy and its something i need to deal with for the rest of my life.
But thank you all for defending me!
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
awwwww thank you!!!!!!
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
You know by arguing with 'them' all you are doing is providing them with a soapbox to stand on. As you can see from just this thread it doesn't matter how much actual fact you throw at them it won't change their viewpoint one inch. Their 'Blanket' (See my second post in this thread) is totally impervious to facts, reality or common sense. Sometimes it's best just to leave it alone and let their posts go uncontested.
Bren
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My arguments are belief... of course they aren't facts. Both my position as well as that of science is morally based... it's clear in which direction our society would like to go so it would be opportune for the scientific community to just accept that direction and not try to expose it otherwise.
Sexuality's nature is that it is a preference... just as any other. It may have causal factors yet they are always checked by the presence of our perfect souls... the consciousness that can overcome all flaws. if I were to find a flaw within myself all you telling me that I can't overcome it? I suppose I then am of a different species than you are, as I am not a slave to myself. I suspect you aren't either... yet oh well.
There is that word irrational again. You know, calling something irrational doesn't make it so.
My claims that Enigma is living a backwards lifestyle is mere opinion... it doesn't have to matter to you. Though your claim to the contrary is also an opinion... throwing a word like "bigot" around is unsuitable and therefore is just an insult. My philosophical beliefs which happen to correlate with Christianity are also just a belief... though I've been given no reason to see otherwise.
A word to the wise: insults are not reason.
"Listen, you fuckers, you screwheads. Here is a man who would not take it anymore. A man who stood up against the scum, the cunts, the dogs, the filth, the shit. Here is a man who stood up." - Robert DeNiro
I like how I'm instantly a bigot for thinking that what Enigma, personally, did was an assholish thing to do. I don't give a shit about transgendered people becoming men or women. I don't care about gay people being gay. This has exceptionally no impact on me whatsoever.
I think that Enigma could have handled the situation better and not ended up leaving his wife and probably causing problems for his (you're still a he until you're post-op, there's no changing this) children. Calling me a bigot and a homophobe is basically you being a bigot and using a the all enveloping shield of the GLBT movement to hide behind. Nowhere did I launch an attack on gay people, bisexual people, or transgendered people. I called you, personally, an attention whore and cited your personal moves as my problems. I have problems with your personal handling of the situation.
You think that your handling of the situation was fine, and you'll use any sort of mental justification in order to retain that belief. I believe that your handling of the situation was not fine, have voiced that opinion, and been called a bigot, homophobe, and closeted homosexual for my trouble. While zchmrkenhoff obviously has problems with the entire GLBT ideal, I don't give a single shit about it.
Now with 57.3% more flames!
I'm starting to find a pattern on these forums of pointing a finger at an argument that you don't like and calling it bigoted. It's quite... I don't know, it's just tiresome. You do have a choice in the matter. If you belong to my same species (homo sapien) then that means you have a conciousness and that you are more than a mere animal... you define yourself and you are in control of your actions and decisions. Who you are is your doing... who I am is my doing. I am the person I am because I have chosen to be this way... I wasn't forced, wasn't compelled... I am who I am not because "this is how I was made" but because this is what I have defined myself to be.
If we all are just "acting out the character of ourselves" and we really don't define ourselves, then aren't the "bigots, racists, and homophobes" just acting out that character as well?
That argument loses it's validity.. it therefore says that rapists, thiefs, murderers, etc are not choosing to be like that, they are just being who they are. They are not guilty of anything as they are not really choosing to do wrong, they are just being themselves at heart.
it might be... shocking to realize that you have the responsibility of controlling your own life though that's how it is. Making the claim "I'm just being myself" doesn't mean anything... because you are you.
You think I want you to commit suicide? How offensive is that? "People who don't support my lifestyle choice obviously want me to die." You have a very narrow-minded view of people who don't support a lifestyle like yours.
Homophobia is a fictional disease conjured by people like yourself to make it seem as if anybody who opposes a lifestyle such as yours is suffering from an irrational fear of homosexuals... it's really quite irrational itself, and is an ignorant view of others.
Anybody who would commit suicide because of the pressures of society has deep troubles that they need to work out... that should be a no-brainer. If you feel your existence is that meaningless then perhaps nihilism isn't the answer.
The only church that matters is the Eastern Orthodox Church. All others are schismatic and do not represent the ideals of the Christian faith.
"Listen, you fuckers, you screwheads. Here is a man who would not take it anymore. A man who stood up against the scum, the cunts, the dogs, the filth, the shit. Here is a man who stood up." - Robert DeNiro
I agree with most of what you say. With regards to your final statement, I believe they should realize that their lifestyle isn't one to be proud of, and they should go about their buisness in privacy. Openly parading it and trying to force society to revolve around it is another thing entirely.
"Listen, you fuckers, you screwheads. Here is a man who would not take it anymore. A man who stood up against the scum, the cunts, the dogs, the filth, the shit. Here is a man who stood up." - Robert DeNiro
No. Anyone who ignores facts is a moron. You, however, along with most people in this thread, seem to have quite a difficult time handling concepts such as "opinion" and "belief." Just because something is popular doens't make it a fact. With that logic, the slaves from Africa would have factually been lesser human beings than the white colonists in America as the majority would have believed so.
Society changes. Nature doesn't. If you want to call someone a bigot for not being content with the way society has changed, then go look up the word and enlighten your vocabulary.
"Listen, you fuckers, you screwheads. Here is a man who would not take it anymore. A man who stood up against the scum, the cunts, the dogs, the filth, the shit. Here is a man who stood up." - Robert DeNiro
Everything changes even nature...
Though, I always find it fun to follow that by saying:
"The more things change, the more they stay the same."
Fortunately or unfortunately for us all, nothing lasts forever.
I put on my top hat.
Hm. Make an argument. I believe nature would have to be a fixed quality... I see no evidence of the contrary. The laws that govern the universe have always remained constant, haven't they? If something is changed, it means that there is conscious intervention.
"Listen, you fuckers, you screwheads. Here is a man who would not take it anymore. A man who stood up against the scum, the cunts, the dogs, the filth, the shit. Here is a man who stood up." - Robert DeNiro
What laws are you refering to?
Scietinfics laws? Moral laws? Religious laws?
Can you elaborate on what you mean by saying that nature is a fixed quality?
I put on my top hat.
Well with regards to nature I am referring to the fixed scientific laws that things abide by... things we can observe and establish as fact. Moral laws can never be factual... they are derived from belief. Essentially, they are defined by us, while something like the universe is not. Religious laws... well.. I personally believe those shouldn't change (like how the Eastern Orthodox Church does it) but they certainly do change... I don't see those changes as right though.
"Listen, you fuckers, you screwheads. Here is a man who would not take it anymore. A man who stood up against the scum, the cunts, the dogs, the filth, the shit. Here is a man who stood up." - Robert DeNiro
Ah well, then, that clears things up. I a bit hastily assumed that you meant the nature of man does not change.
Regarding Scientific laws, I would agree, as in so far as I know, they have not changed(unless of course they were simply incorrectly postulated to begin with). ^^
However, as you yourself point out moral and religious laws are human beliefs/perception, subject to change as we change.
With regards to nature, if we define it in this case as the scientific laws of the universe so to speak, I am not quite sure what if anything they have to do with subjects such as homosexuality.
I put on my top hat.
It's almost like you said something.
"Listen, you fuckers, you screwheads. Here is a man who would not take it anymore. A man who stood up against the scum, the cunts, the dogs, the filth, the shit. Here is a man who stood up." - Robert DeNiro
Apologies for the numerous edits, apparently my word processor is not a friend of this forum.
Altered the first post so that it is visible.
I put on my top hat.
Well if you are willing to work with me here.
I believe that existence as we know it was conciously created... some call the creator God, while I call it nature. I believe that "God" or nature exists outside of its creation (as in another dimension), that it provided the means for its existence at the same time it was being created, and that it cannot be perceived by any human sense.
The reason that I believe this is because of the irrationalities surrounding us... such as the infinite that is time. If we were to go to the beginning of the Big Bang, then if that point is the beginning of time, what is occuring directly preceding that moment? If there isn't time before that, then you must believe that the universe just came out of nothing... which is itself irrational an irrational belief, as I further claim that something cannot be created out of nothing (unless if it is being done so by a concious creator).
Any way you look at it, there is at least one present irrationality with regards to our universe and beyond.
I theorize that the only way that we can explain an irrational problem is with an irrational answer... such as, if we were to take the square root of the number negative one, then our explaination is the mathematical figure i. Similarily, my answer to the irrational problem such as the infinite that is time or the matter that constitues the universe is irrational... I say that it was created by the God/nature that I have so defined.
Now since this being came to be, and since there is no inherit reason for the universe or its contents to exist (if you do have a factual answer in regards to why there is a reason that the universe should inheritly exist then please list it now) so therefore it must have been created for a reason with conscious intent. Everything from the Sun, the planets, galaxies... they are all designed for a reason and consciously... or else they have evolved form something that was. The complication is that we will never know this reason for certain... we can only try to explain it ourselves.
I believe that all of these stepping stones were laid out by nature (which has the properties of being all knowing, all powerful, and all good so therefore nothing it created can be flawed). Have you seen my architect example? If so, then you will understand what I mean when I say that the things that evolve out of nature's creation are not directly created by it, and that they can therefore be flawed. Therefore the fish of the sea... the animals that roam the lands... all of these creatures evolved out of an original creation, but were not directly created by it... they therefore can be flawed.
Which leads me to humans. Humans are flawed individuals... we are just animals, imperfect in our own right. Yet we are the product of nature's blueprint... evolution has lead things to us. One thing that separates us form mere animals is that we have a conscience... an ability to choose, decide, and reason. I believe that this is our "soul"... our consciousness is perfect, the direct creation/resemblance of nature itself.
Why did nature create all this? Perhaps it is just a purgatory... a test. We are perfect souls placed inside of these flawed human animals in a world of temptation... it is our duty to overcome these flaws and resist those temptations and pursue a path of goodness.
Obviously my philosophy ties in to Christian belief because I believe it is necessary to do so. If I can reconcile both science and Christianity together [or any true faith for that matter...meaning one with a "divine beginning" which has never changed since its inception (like Eastern Orthodox Christianity)], and by doing so I can understand the understandable and explain what cannot be understood.
Why is homosexuality wrong? It is no more than a flaw... a lustful temptation present in our imperfect existence. The Eastern Orthodox Christian church (the only one that matters, mind you) claims temptuous lusts have the ability to reduce man's state to that of a perverse animal... chasing after pleasure. These things are therefore wrong; they distort our natural purpose which is to resist the evils of our imperfect, temptuous world. The only true path to goodness is either that of celibacy (an extraordinary feat only able to be accomplished by a strong few) or marriage (the path of the majority).
Of course as a society we say otherwise... we believe in hedonism, that all of us are "predefined"... and that we are merely acting out the character that is us.
My belief is that the Christian religion follows the laws of Nature/God itself. I cannot prove that to be true, and at the same time it cannot be disproven. It is simply a belief.
"Listen, you fuckers, you screwheads. Here is a man who would not take it anymore. A man who stood up against the scum, the cunts, the dogs, the filth, the shit. Here is a man who stood up." - Robert DeNiro
Interesting...
I am inclined to disagree with some points, however as is the case with all religious or even philosophical debate there is unfortunately no way to conclusively decide what is "correct" or "right".
I could for example very well attempt to argue through the use of logic that all of reality is an elaborate simulation, however, in the end there is no way I can prove or disprove this fact...(Though, I would like to note, I am not actually stating this is something I believe...)
Take this rather simplified logical evidence for the hypothetical arguement above:
It is possible that an advanced civilization could create a computer simulation which contains individuals with artificial intelligence (AI).
Such a civilization would likely run many, billions for example, of these simulations (just for fun, for research or any other permutation of possible reasons.)
A simulated individual inside the simulation wouldn’t necessarily know that it is inside a simulation — it is just going about its daily business in what it considers to be the "real world."
*All credit to the sometimes enjoyable Nick Borstrom(and wiki for the direct quote)...
I put on my top hat.
And that's the interesting thing... what you just argued there could very well be true.
What I believe, however, is that the fewer explainations that we have... the better. Think of a type of... religious anarchy... wherein each individual has their own explaination of how things are. You could have individuals who end up with the conclusion that it is their destiny to kill everyone... for example.
I believe that having a unified belief works out for the better... we are all striving towards the same thing and we share similar values and morals. A society should have such a common belief... unified in that regard.
It just so happens that the popular belief of Western Civilization is Christianity... if it were something else, then I would likely try to defend that belief.
It is important to believe in something... especially when it gives us good morals like what Christianity does (in its true original form, mind you. Anyone could take the basic tenants of the religion and distort them to their own vicious will like what we have in the modern day).
Note, however, that having a unified belief doesn't mean you can't have secularism.
"Listen, you fuckers, you screwheads. Here is a man who would not take it anymore. A man who stood up against the scum, the cunts, the dogs, the filth, the shit. Here is a man who stood up." - Robert DeNiro
I would perhaps argue that religion has always been about interpretation, thus one cannot really say that those divergent from others are inherently dangerous(or vice versa of course).
The danger lies in the actions of people, not the ideas themselves.
Anarchy itself is not always detrimental...sometimes it is even neccesary for progress or change.
I put on my top hat.
Well you cannot deny that for the case of Christianity, Jesus himself established the early church... and that church is still present only in the Eastern Orthodox form. While I cannot prove as fact that separating from the main religion causes potentially dangerous separatist groups, you cannot prove that it doesn't. I argue, however, that staying true to the original traditions is the safest way to ensure that the religion will uphold all of the values and tenants of when it was established.
I disagree with you here... the idea themself is the danger. Look at the present situation in the Middle East... it is not people that we are at war with, but an idea... the idea is dangerous. Even if we killed every known terrorist living, the idea will always exist and that is the danger.
I agree with you in that it isn't always a bad thing and I agree with what you suggest further. However, can you not see the potential danger that could arise from millions of people each believing different things?
Do you really wish to argue that millions of people with individual beliefs provides for a more stable and decent society than one which is bound by a common belief with good morals?
"Listen, you fuckers, you screwheads. Here is a man who would not take it anymore. A man who stood up against the scum, the cunts, the dogs, the filth, the shit. Here is a man who stood up." - Robert DeNiro