In all seriousness though, LARP is pretty fun. I prefer LARP without magic or spells though (watch the video, that's why). I had always wished that Lotro would expand on the idea of the monster play. I have a rank 6 spider and rank 5 commander (sorry haven't played in a year, forgot the classes). I spent more time in Monsterplay than I did on any of my actual characters.
Ha, great article with some nice original thought (glad it's not another one of those idiotic lists, but I digress..). Still remember being a jr high student and some college kid putting a roman candle up his sleeve pretending to be a wizard.. Needless to say he stopped RPing when the ambulance came
I've even run a LARP (limitied run planned timeline,and the work involved is monumenal. But it is rewarding as heck. I get why MMO creaters create MMOs. Everyone tries to make the game they want to play.
I still play. Yes, sometimes it's hot or cold outside, but you just learn to dress for it (or you get hospitalized a lot).
And just like in MMOs, there are the occasional jerk playing. But again, just like in MMOs, ostracizing and baningtends to fix the problem.
On the other side, unlike MMOs there is a large component of player ability involved in LARPing, MUCH more than in an MMO. Put another way,in a LARP - you get EXERCISE!
Sorry if i repeat anyone (was too much to go through, a lot of feedback) but I do believe that in a way, the playing as monsters is already in mmos. for example, WoW. you have 2 sides horde and alliance. to a hordeling, ad alliance player is sort of a monster, but player controlled. in some servers, you treat them the same as a monster, but they are alot harder to kill (most of the time). Lots of MMOs feature the faction based gameplay where the thing you have to fight against is player controlled. replacing the character with a monster is really just a step back from that.
A great game that would be close to LARP as it can get was Face of Mankind. Back in the beta-phase. There were no NPCs(save tutorial and I think one bar person that did nothing in the tokyo block). Everything was player controlled, from items to quests to the government itself. All missions were made my higher ranking faction leaders to give to the underlings, be it guard a area, patrol some place, or even attack a base. There were also missions to gather and mine. The player would then diposite the said items for the quest reward, then the quest giver would use the items to make more items. And so the way of life continues. I am unsure how the game operates now, it has been too long since i tested.
But to say that MMOs lack what LARPing has is a bit of a over statement. Its there, but you just have to see it a little different. Im sure LARPing is fun, But ill be damed if i were to be seen on the bus dressed like that.... in my area, I would be shot, stabbed, robbed and then posted in the paper, in that order. (Im not having a go at LARPs xD)
Sorry If what I post doesnt make alot of sence, im a little bit in a hurry... got a roast in the oven, and I have to go to the bank!
On another thing i just saw someone post about that in larp you get exercise, simple solution for mmos. MMO+Wii(using the board and wiimote+nunchuck+Wii moation+) ALL ON A DDR BOARD! Lets see you all do that........ yea... I can see it now. DDR board to move, Wii fit board to turn(attach to butt or face or something idonno) and wiimotes for hands. Wow Ima put this down on paper!
Anyone here ever play Never Winter Nights (NWN)? In that game you had the option to create your own little game, lay out a map, create NPC's, create script for the NPC's to read and choices for the player to chose from, and at any point jump into the NPC and take direct control of said NPC.
I did it a few times and had a great time doing it, sure it took quite some time to do but it was a lot of fun when you saw the players enjoying it as much as you did. The one I remember best was the one where you where in a town and there where children and other NPC's disappearing from the town, and your quest was to find out where they where and see if you could rescue them and defeat the monster that had them. I put together a maze with the classic Minitaur at the end as the bad guys as well as lots of other bad guys, some undead and other bad guys that just attacked the player when he set off some condition or I just raised them as the GM while invisible to the player at no point where they aware that I was there. And all of a sudden there where monsters attacking them. Some of them even praised me on how much fun I had made the place.
If it was possible in WoW to take over the LK for example or any of the other bosses in dungeons ah man it be a lot of fun to kill raids specially those that think they are the best. While you migth see it as griffing it is not, you want a challenge well a live human controlling said boss would be much harder and make it actually fun as well as unpredictable. We know that all the bosses have certain attacks, there is your regular auto-attack some AOE spells/physical attacks, some heavy hitting single target attacks. And to make sure that this is done correctly you could have an aggro meter that if the tank loses aggro you are free to attack the next person in the aggro meter if it was a healer well you get to attack him until the tank can take aggro back. So your movement would be limited to who has aggro so on and so forth, but also have a FFA ability that you can use as a boss that resets aggro and allows you to attack anyone which a lot of bosses already have to begin with.
I dont know I think it would be great to be able to do your own quest as well as inhabit monsters and bosses it would make the game more fun than it currently is, I would spend hours every night switching between mobs and fighting against regular players.
Player-generated content (PGC) is something MMO developers have an interest in, because making content is really hard, expensive, and time consuming. What developers ideally want are systems and tools that allow players as much freedom as possible.
This is what I have been saying for years on this forum with respect to sandbox games. This idea in my view is the cornerstone to a good SB game.
I'll have to greatly disagree with the OP in LOTRO being the first to go down this route as SWG did this back in 2003 when it launched. Players could build forts and hold areas of interest and thus tons of PGC was created. Heck, PGC was the staple of the game as there really weren't too many developer made quests in it. It certaily took PGC much farther than LOTRO (not a knock on LOTRO but it is what it is) and it's funny to see people with article power now chiming in on how great it would be when we've had it all these years now.
Course anytime anyone brings up SWG for it's good parts (and there were good parts even though these people refuse to acknowldege it), the "you're nostalgic" and "you're an Uncle Owen" police run out with their torches.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
NWN was published in 2002 and came with the Aurora tool that allowed you to do PGC so there has been a few games that allowed you to do PGC, while NWN was not an MMO it did have multiplayer so close enough. I am sure there where also other multiplayer games while not concidered MMO's had the capability to do PGC.
"Live-Action Role-Players (LARPers) have a bad rap." Maybe that's the reason they are LARPing instead of being signed by record studios. I'm quite amazed nobody commented on that hilarious first line so far.
The Sleeper in EQ1 was the best event in any video game I have ever played. Some servers never got see the sleeper.The guild Afterlife on Mithmarr was able to start the event and all of us who were on at the time had a blast.
Larpers are the ugly, red-headed, step children of the nerd world. Often because they are ugly, red-headed, and step children. Just kidding! Especially about that elf in the first picture! (I've never wanted to be a breast plate so bad in my life)
The only thing LARPers bring to the table in an MMOPRG is their imagination and immersion. Its kinda like playing the old pen and paper games. They would be really good dungeon masters and make for a really fun adventure as gamers. But they are not artists. They are not programming genuises in computer artificial intelligence. These are what game designers are. (or should be) Most larpers I've met are more up for inter-kingdom political intrigue than spitballing stat numbers and equations.
BUt just the same, I think every game would benefit from a role playing server that is played by real life LARPers. I still get a chuckle out of the guys called the "backstreet gnomes". It was 5 little people at dragon con who dressed liek gnomes with pots on their heads and would walk throught the streets and just break out into songs and dances.
That being said, how cool would it be to be the monster in an MMO!!! Somehow the idea of torturing poor innocent characters with whatever monster skill I can muster while they're just trying to complete their missions and level up just sounds sadistically intriguing!
Exhibit A in the issue with this kind of idea: "I'm not actually being mean, I'm just ROLEPLAYING someone being mean! I'm corpse camping in-character and that makes it alright!"
LARPing is a social experience and one where the entire group can react socially / physcially if things get out of hand. Online, your victims have no recourse for someone taking the script in ways they don't want it to go.
I agree with SnarlingWolf - it sounds like a good idea, but history shows that if you give players that kind of freedom abuse and exploits will quickly rear their heads. Monster play is a good idea, but the wrong implementation (particulary if playing a monster is 'free') will see the PCs stomped and leaving en masse.
I'm very much interested in what the WoD MMO will bring to the table.
Don't hold your breath...
EVE already does some of this.
The reason why this won't work is very simple. You can say LARpers are geeks but a big difference between LARPers and MMOers is LARPers turn up at an event. They are held accountable for their actions. If a whole band of LARP 'workers' took their lvl 2 goblins and ambushed as a group only those LARP groups they could take down and then taunt them in game or off game at another forum or site how long would your goblin band be acting for?
The intraweb brings anonymity and some tossers use that to detract rather then enhance the enjoyment of their community. As long as their are selfish pricks and griefers in MMoers true player generated content will be something no publisher will want for fear of driving off the hordes of pimply faced teenagers and college students trolling for a little heroics on a PC screen because life is oh so droll.
In theory awesome, in truth stupid idea, expand on game experience and you would be aware of some games that included open pvp and a little world 'developing' and why they're no longer with us. And do we really want these mmo gaming geeks allowing their mates to stand up as training dummies while they smash through 'easy mode player 'generated' content for free xp/loot/stats? Because you should also understand as long as we have had MMO's there have been some who will cheat, hack and exploit to gain a benefit.
Oh well, was a good idea for a fleeting moment. Look beyond WoW and WAR as the profile indicates, gain a good grounding in what has come before and failed and then we can get on with reading content we've not looked at before. Time is precious as they say.
Another fun article Angie... well done. I tried monster play in LOTRO and it was definitely fun for a change of pace playing a spider and eating hobbits.
@ Coir: but... but... MUDs have to deal with the intraweb bringing anonymity too, and their systems work out ok. I think it would work to have people who have proven themselves responsible, to be given more responsibility.
I think there should also be possibilities with non-combat classes being able to give *some* quests, i.e. players could play a merchant class and (within constraints) success at being a merchant is rewarded by being able to every now and again hire other players to run a risky trade route, i.e. give them a quest. The merchant could choose a very risky trade gamble or a safer one, with corresponding rewards for both players and merchant. Merchants could be retired adventurers having reached level cap, running an Inn or a shop. A kind of alternative end game really.
Comments
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_ekugPKqFw
In all seriousness though, LARP is pretty fun. I prefer LARP without magic or spells though (watch the video, that's why). I had always wished that Lotro would expand on the idea of the monster play. I have a rank 6 spider and rank 5 commander (sorry haven't played in a year, forgot the classes). I spent more time in Monsterplay than I did on any of my actual characters.
Ha, great article with some nice original thought (glad it's not another one of those idiotic lists, but I digress..). Still remember being a jr high student and some college kid putting a roman candle up his sleeve pretending to be a wizard.. Needless to say he stopped RPing when the ambulance came
It's called "creative" wardrobe choices... I've seen it. Sometimes it's horrifying, sometimes not.
I've been LARPing for 22 years, myself.
I've even run a LARP (limitied run planned timeline,and the work involved is monumenal. But it is rewarding as heck. I get why MMO creaters create MMOs. Everyone tries to make the game they want to play.
I still play. Yes, sometimes it's hot or cold outside, but you just learn to dress for it (or you get hospitalized a lot).
And just like in MMOs, there are the occasional jerk playing. But again, just like in MMOs, ostracizing and baningtends to fix the problem.
On the other side, unlike MMOs there is a large component of player ability involved in LARPing, MUCH more than in an MMO. Put another way,in a LARP - you get EXERCISE!
Sorry if i repeat anyone (was too much to go through, a lot of feedback) but I do believe that in a way, the playing as monsters is already in mmos. for example, WoW. you have 2 sides horde and alliance. to a hordeling, ad alliance player is sort of a monster, but player controlled. in some servers, you treat them the same as a monster, but they are alot harder to kill (most of the time). Lots of MMOs feature the faction based gameplay where the thing you have to fight against is player controlled. replacing the character with a monster is really just a step back from that.
A great game that would be close to LARP as it can get was Face of Mankind. Back in the beta-phase. There were no NPCs(save tutorial and I think one bar person that did nothing in the tokyo block). Everything was player controlled, from items to quests to the government itself. All missions were made my higher ranking faction leaders to give to the underlings, be it guard a area, patrol some place, or even attack a base. There were also missions to gather and mine. The player would then diposite the said items for the quest reward, then the quest giver would use the items to make more items. And so the way of life continues. I am unsure how the game operates now, it has been too long since i tested.
But to say that MMOs lack what LARPing has is a bit of a over statement. Its there, but you just have to see it a little different. Im sure LARPing is fun, But ill be damed if i were to be seen on the bus dressed like that.... in my area, I would be shot, stabbed, robbed and then posted in the paper, in that order. (Im not having a go at LARPs xD)
Sorry If what I post doesnt make alot of sence, im a little bit in a hurry... got a roast in the oven, and I have to go to the bank!
Badger...... ah u know how it goes...
On another thing i just saw someone post about that in larp you get exercise, simple solution for mmos. MMO+Wii(using the board and wiimote+nunchuck+Wii moation+) ALL ON A DDR BOARD! Lets see you all do that........ yea... I can see it now. DDR board to move, Wii fit board to turn(attach to butt or face or something idonno) and wiimotes for hands. Wow Ima put this down on paper!
Badger...... ah u know how it goes...
I would love to see a LARP video of an EQ1 pulling party.
1. The bard would be constantly rambling incoherent snippets of lyrics to different songs while twitching his fingers.
2. The shaman would be standing up and sitting down over and over
3. The chanter would constantly be yelling at the top of his lungs "DONT TOUCH THOSE MOBS" and well dieing.
4. The ranger would of course be a great role for the guy who got too pasted to RP and passed out.
Oh well I am sure there are more examples folks could thuink of
Anyone here ever play Never Winter Nights (NWN)? In that game you had the option to create your own little game, lay out a map, create NPC's, create script for the NPC's to read and choices for the player to chose from, and at any point jump into the NPC and take direct control of said NPC.
I did it a few times and had a great time doing it, sure it took quite some time to do but it was a lot of fun when you saw the players enjoying it as much as you did. The one I remember best was the one where you where in a town and there where children and other NPC's disappearing from the town, and your quest was to find out where they where and see if you could rescue them and defeat the monster that had them. I put together a maze with the classic Minitaur at the end as the bad guys as well as lots of other bad guys, some undead and other bad guys that just attacked the player when he set off some condition or I just raised them as the GM while invisible to the player at no point where they aware that I was there. And all of a sudden there where monsters attacking them. Some of them even praised me on how much fun I had made the place.
If it was possible in WoW to take over the LK for example or any of the other bosses in dungeons ah man it be a lot of fun to kill raids specially those that think they are the best. While you migth see it as griffing it is not, you want a challenge well a live human controlling said boss would be much harder and make it actually fun as well as unpredictable. We know that all the bosses have certain attacks, there is your regular auto-attack some AOE spells/physical attacks, some heavy hitting single target attacks. And to make sure that this is done correctly you could have an aggro meter that if the tank loses aggro you are free to attack the next person in the aggro meter if it was a healer well you get to attack him until the tank can take aggro back. So your movement would be limited to who has aggro so on and so forth, but also have a FFA ability that you can use as a boss that resets aggro and allows you to attack anyone which a lot of bosses already have to begin with.
I dont know I think it would be great to be able to do your own quest as well as inhabit monsters and bosses it would make the game more fun than it currently is, I would spend hours every night switching between mobs and fighting against regular players.
Player-generated content (PGC) is something MMO developers have an interest in, because making content is really hard, expensive, and time consuming. What developers ideally want are systems and tools that allow players as much freedom as possible.
This is what I have been saying for years on this forum with respect to sandbox games. This idea in my view is the cornerstone to a good SB game.
I'll have to greatly disagree with the OP in LOTRO being the first to go down this route as SWG did this back in 2003 when it launched. Players could build forts and hold areas of interest and thus tons of PGC was created. Heck, PGC was the staple of the game as there really weren't too many developer made quests in it. It certaily took PGC much farther than LOTRO (not a knock on LOTRO but it is what it is) and it's funny to see people with article power now chiming in on how great it would be when we've had it all these years now.
Course anytime anyone brings up SWG for it's good parts (and there were good parts even though these people refuse to acknowldege it), the "you're nostalgic" and "you're an Uncle Owen" police run out with their torches.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
NWN was published in 2002 and came with the Aurora tool that allowed you to do PGC so there has been a few games that allowed you to do PGC, while NWN was not an MMO it did have multiplayer so close enough. I am sure there where also other multiplayer games while not concidered MMO's had the capability to do PGC.
"Live-Action Role-Players (LARPers) have a bad rap." Maybe that's the reason they are LARPing instead of being signed by record studios. I'm quite amazed nobody commented on that hilarious first line so far.
My Signature
The Sleeper in EQ1 was the best event in any video game I have ever played. Some servers never got see the sleeper.The guild Afterlife on Mithmarr was able to start the event and all of us who were on at the time had a blast.
Larpers are the ugly, red-headed, step children of the nerd world. Often because they are ugly, red-headed, and step children. Just kidding! Especially about that elf in the first picture! (I've never wanted to be a breast plate so bad in my life)
The only thing LARPers bring to the table in an MMOPRG is their imagination and immersion. Its kinda like playing the old pen and paper games. They would be really good dungeon masters and make for a really fun adventure as gamers. But they are not artists. They are not programming genuises in computer artificial intelligence. These are what game designers are. (or should be) Most larpers I've met are more up for inter-kingdom political intrigue than spitballing stat numbers and equations.
BUt just the same, I think every game would benefit from a role playing server that is played by real life LARPers. I still get a chuckle out of the guys called the "backstreet gnomes". It was 5 little people at dragon con who dressed liek gnomes with pots on their heads and would walk throught the streets and just break out into songs and dances.
Exhibit A in the issue with this kind of idea: "I'm not actually being mean, I'm just ROLEPLAYING someone being mean! I'm corpse camping in-character and that makes it alright!"
LARPing is a social experience and one where the entire group can react socially / physcially if things get out of hand. Online, your victims have no recourse for someone taking the script in ways they don't want it to go.
I agree with SnarlingWolf - it sounds like a good idea, but history shows that if you give players that kind of freedom abuse and exploits will quickly rear their heads. Monster play is a good idea, but the wrong implementation (particulary if playing a monster is 'free') will see the PCs stomped and leaving en masse.
Don't hold your breath...
EVE already does some of this.
The reason why this won't work is very simple. You can say LARpers are geeks but a big difference between LARPers and MMOers is LARPers turn up at an event. They are held accountable for their actions. If a whole band of LARP 'workers' took their lvl 2 goblins and ambushed as a group only those LARP groups they could take down and then taunt them in game or off game at another forum or site how long would your goblin band be acting for?
The intraweb brings anonymity and some tossers use that to detract rather then enhance the enjoyment of their community. As long as their are selfish pricks and griefers in MMoers true player generated content will be something no publisher will want for fear of driving off the hordes of pimply faced teenagers and college students trolling for a little heroics on a PC screen because life is oh so droll.
In theory awesome, in truth stupid idea, expand on game experience and you would be aware of some games that included open pvp and a little world 'developing' and why they're no longer with us. And do we really want these mmo gaming geeks allowing their mates to stand up as training dummies while they smash through 'easy mode player 'generated' content for free xp/loot/stats? Because you should also understand as long as we have had MMO's there have been some who will cheat, hack and exploit to gain a benefit.
Oh well, was a good idea for a fleeting moment. Look beyond WoW and WAR as the profile indicates, gain a good grounding in what has come before and failed and then we can get on with reading content we've not looked at before. Time is precious as they say.
Another fun article Angie... well done. I tried monster play in LOTRO and it was definitely fun for a change of pace playing a spider and eating hobbits.
@ Coir: but... but... MUDs have to deal with the intraweb bringing anonymity too, and their systems work out ok. I think it would work to have people who have proven themselves responsible, to be given more responsibility.
I think there should also be possibilities with non-combat classes being able to give *some* quests, i.e. players could play a merchant class and (within constraints) success at being a merchant is rewarded by being able to every now and again hire other players to run a risky trade route, i.e. give them a quest. The merchant could choose a very risky trade gamble or a safer one, with corresponding rewards for both players and merchant. Merchants could be retired adventurers having reached level cap, running an Inn or a shop. A kind of alternative end game really.
I think User Generated Content can be amazing. I hope we will see more MMOs in the future useing elements of UGC. Great artical.