Well seeing as there's only 1 24-man raid in the entire game it's really not much of a problem. Also if the rewards are enticing enough then at least for the first little while it won't be that difficult to find enough players to complete the 24 man raid, hopefully by the time that slows down they will have implemented group size scaling or something of similar effect.
I haven't played in almost 10 months, but I seem to recall another 24 man raid? Has everyone already forgotten about the giant spider nest next to that city in Angmar?
I'm not saying you can't take it on without a 24 man raid, I've actually witnessed it being soloed when level cap was 60, someone correct me if I'm wrong though.
After reading this I found a part that sounds horrible:
Meanwhile, Helegrod saw more dramatic changes, becoming a total of four wings. The first three are 45-60 minute 12-man raids, while the final wing, focusing on the dragon, is a 30-45 minute 24-man raid.
So lets say you have a great 12 man raid going on and you complete the first 3 wings, and you wanna do the 4th and final part, but wait you're now forced to find 12 more members to do it!? Thats not very good scaling to me...it should scale down to allow 12 players to finish it, not require more.
Ah well, good thing I don't play it anymore cause ever since MoM, LOTRO has been going steeply down hill and into a not so fun progression mode. It was far better before MoM when crafting actually mattered, now most of the crafts are useless, and it makes no sense why they're even there anymore.
Quest chains have been that way all along in the game. Go along alone or with a buddy for 3 or so parts then bam, all of a sudden the last leg or two of the chain you need a group. Its hard to find people all on the same leg of the quest and many quests go unfinished because of it. So this isnt surprising, its just more of the same.
I agree with that , Philly. It was an exercise in torture if a group member had to drop for some reason.
It's entertaining to read how you absolutely missed the point.
Oblivion is no RPG just like Half Life nor Far Cry. They are both the same. Same difficult combat all the time, no quest solving, teleporting from chapter to chapter. Everything scales to your power.
Simply said specifically for you. Level scale is no RPG feature. It's a feature to make RPG more FPS-like.
RPG is, was about power differences -> improving your power in compare to the world. If everything scales up or down to you, there's no need to HAVE ANY SORT OF LEVELING SYSTEM.
I can't believe somebody just posted that. It's so wrong on so many levels that it's not even funny. I can only assume this is some sort of attempt at trolling and starting a flame war.
Some people like Thillian just do not get what a RPG is. They have lost site of what a true RPG is / was and have come to think of a RPG as nothing more then some sort of kill monster to gain next level type of genre.
A RPG, all the way back to its very roots in PnP, is / was / and still is to this day, about the story. The journey from one point to another and the story that unfolds in that journey. Back in the PnP days of RPGs everything scaled to that of the player. The DM's made the decisions of what powers a monster had / didn't have. Most never attempted to throw an impossible encounter at the player unless the story they where taleing called for it. How many players do you think a DM would keep if all they did was throw impossible encounters at the player and continued to tell the player to go back and grind killing monsters until they reached a higher level. Very little if any at all.. I have never encounted a DM or ever been a DM that would do such a thing to people that played my campagins.
They are attempting to bring the STORY to every player. Allow everyone to take part in the entire story from the start to the end by allowing the dungeons to scale to the player(s) level. This doesn't mean that it will always be a cake walk, but it does mean that every player and group will get a chance to take part in the story. Not a few elite groups and elite players. Whats the point of creating a very interesting story if only 25% of your player base ever gets a chance to experience it?
Why do you think games like World of Warcraft continue to downscale the difficulty on there encounters so that more and more of the player base can experience them? These are RPG games that attempt to tell a story.. Sadly many people have lost sight of that and think of them as nothing more then a level grind from start to end, as if they are trying to prove they are somehow better then other people by being the first there or the strongest at the end. Sadly they tend to miss the entire point and they tend to be the first ones to leave at the end of the day.
That is simply not true. Remember how the D&D first RPG was created. There was D&D chainmail, simple combat between characters/monsters - what's now basically miniature wargames. There was no story apart from the background history of the world.
The first edition of D&D in 1974 was hardly about a story. It was about rolling a char, going down into dungeon, and killing & looting everything. There were no rules yet for adventures above ground.
I agree tho that story is getting more attention nowadays. Again, if we come back to the past of cRPG - true rogue-like RPG games, later on D&D SSI adaptations - eyes of beholders, pool of radiance etc, were all primarily about rolling a party and then killing everything in the dungeon with at least 12 levels. Again, story was so poor in those games, that it was hardly the main reason why would anyone play it.
Nothing was ever scaled, in cRPGs or PnP sessions you could see your character improving in relation to the world out there. Games like Oblivion where everything scales up / down to you and a camp where you first met some junky bandits, were later on replaced by bandits in full dandric armor (hope I spelled that right).It might be a great feature for an FPS player that is used to consistent difficulty all the time, but it goes against the basic RPG principle - improving your character in relation to the outside world.
Scaling instances is heavy anti-RPG feature. It's an artificial prolongation of the same content. If you think, level-scaled instances and quest tracker are good features for mmoRPG, then I congratule you for your opinion and recommened you another great "RPG" titles such as Half Life or Far Cry.
Oblivion, you know that RPG game that pretty much scales everything to you, says hi2u. It also says Halo is -----> that way.
Woah, I would never expect anyone to actually bring Oblivion on a table as a proof that RPG use level scale, as I don't think of Oblivion as an RPG. Oblivion has FPS controls, FPS combat, FPS aim, everything scales up to you, instant travel, quest trackers. That's no RPG, that's FPS. And if you still believe it's RPG, then I congratule you again for your genre choice, and recommened you Half Life and Far Cry to further enhance your "RPG" experience.
Well that makes sense. If, evidently, all you've ever played are Far Cry and Half Life (you seem fixated on these 2 titles for a reason I gather), then it stands to reason you'd really have no idea what an RPG is.
Oblivion/Morrowind are RPGs. Are they RPGs that I like. No. I prefer the Bioware model. But they are still RPGs.
I believe we can henceforth safely discount anything you have to say on the subject. Good day.
That is simply not true. Remember how the D&D first RPG was created. There was D&D chainmail, simple combat between characters/monsters - what's now basically miniature wargames. There was no story apart from the background history of the world.
The first edition of D&D in 1974 was hardly about a story. It was about rolling a char, going down into dungeon, and killing & looting everything. There were no rules yet for adventures above ground.
I agree tho that story is getting more attention nowadays. Again, if we come back to the past of cRPG - true rogue-like RPG games, later on D&D SSI adaptations - eyes of beholders, pool of radiance etc, were all primarily about rolling a party and then killing everything in the dungeon with at least 12 levels. Again, story was so poor in those games, that it was hardly the main reason why would anyone play it.
Nothing was ever scaled, in cRPGs or PnP sessions you could see your character improving in relation to the world out there. Games like Oblivion where everything scales up / down to you and a camp where you first met some junky bandits, were later on replaced by bandits in full dandric armor (hope I spelled that right).It might be a great feature for an FPS player that is used to consistent difficulty all the time, but it goes against the basic RPG principle - improving your character in relation to the outside world.
What you're describing is the very early evolution of PnP RPG. When you look back at the whole picture, it's pretty clear that story and character background has become much more important over time. The step from Chainmail to 1st ed. D&D itself portrays that. It's a babystep, but a significant step nonetheless. The game was suddenly changing focus to single characters rather than armies. Characters that had names, professions and backgrounds. Campaign worlds such as Grey Hawk, Forgotten Realms and Krynn (Dragon Lance) came into existence during the time of 1st ed AD&D (although it wasn't really until 2nd ed AD&D that Forgotten Realms became a true published setting). By 2nd ed AD&D the storyline had become a very important part to a lot of people and spawned a whole new era of products and playstyles that went so far as to even include diceless systems.
When 4th ed D&D became a reality, many people were very disappointed with how the game has shifted focus back to its roots of going into dungeons, kicking in the door, killing the monsters, loot the treasure and level up. Many people complain that it now feels more like an MMO than an RPG. Interestingly enough, one of the big selling points of 4th ed. D&D is that it's easy to tweak and scale the encounters on the fly so that the game remains balanced with a minimum amount of effort from the dungeonmaster. This trend started in 3rd ed, but often required a lot of work and was not practical during actual play. So since 3rd ed, it has not been uncommon to kill goblins at first level and then encounter some really nasty scaled up goblins at 10th level or beyond.
As for the computer based RPGs, I very much remember playing those early ones for their story. No, they weren't as developed in storyline as those of today, but neither were the graphics and I remember playing some games for the "fantastic" graphics they had back then as well. Developers were still trying to figure out how to do things with very limited amounts of hardware, RAM in particular, and the target audience was different than that of today. The mechanical rules of pen'n'paper RPGs turned out to be very easy to translate into something a computer could understand, so naturally they focused on that to begin with. However, as with the P'n'P RPGs, its obvious that CRPGs have evolved over time to focus more on the storyline than the mechanics compared to those early games.
It's interesting to note that MMOs were a step backwards in that respect. The open nature of MMOs has made it difficult to create deep involving storylines since there are so many variables and very little control. It's no big wonder why there is such a focus on character development and grinding for stuff. It's a great way to keep people occupied, which is key in a subscription based game.
When it comes to the scaling part in Oblivion, this is what in my experience took place in most of the pen'n'paper RPGs I participated in. The fact that the first CRPGs didn't do it, doesn't make it right. It just means that they didn't have the capability. It was the gamemaster who was the critical component. A good gamemaster made sure that people were having a great time and created the storyline. He placed the monsters and treasure in a way that made some sense (bad ones just used the random tables). Many of them even drew up their own worlds. He also modified and scaled encounters as necessary so as to not make it too easy or too frustrating. These tasks are very complicated to put into some sort of logic that can be programmed into a computer and as a result, this part of CRPGs has always lagged behind. The fact that Oblivion DOES scale just show some attempt at evolution in this area. Of course, a real gamemaster knows when to scale and when not to. Oblivion isn't as refined in this area.
Again, I think your comment about Oblivion being an FPS is so far out that I can't even comprehend why you so vehemently stick to that point of view other than for the reason that you're either afraid to be proved wrong or are trying in some way to start a heated debate. You have yet to come up with an argument that is close to being valid. Having similar control layout does not turn a game from one genre into another. Having scaled encounter difficulty and teleportation (which I never use in Oblivion btw) does not turn a game from one genre into another. What makes this whole thing so darn funny to me is that if there's one genre that I don't like, it's FPS. They do absolutely nothing for me. At best, I might find an FPS interesting for a day or two. Years can literally pass between me playing an FPS. Then how come Oblivion is one of my top 5 favorite games ever and is still on my HD? If it's an FPS as you claim, then surely I would not have put as much time into it as I have, right?
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
That is simply not true. Remember how the D&D first RPG was created. There was D&D chainmail, simple combat between characters/monsters - what's now basically miniature wargames. There was no story apart from the background history of the world.
The first edition of D&D in 1974 was hardly about a story. It was about rolling a char, going down into dungeon, and killing & looting everything. There were no rules yet for adventures above ground.
I agree tho that story is getting more attention nowadays. Again, if we come back to the past of cRPG - true rogue-like RPG games, later on D&D SSI adaptations - eyes of beholders, pool of radiance etc, were all primarily about rolling a party and then killing everything in the dungeon with at least 12 levels. Again, story was so poor in those games, that it was hardly the main reason why would anyone play it.
Nothing was ever scaled, in cRPGs or PnP sessions you could see your character improving in relation to the world out there. Games like Oblivion where everything scales up / down to you and a camp where you first met some junky bandits, were later on replaced by bandits in full dandric armor (hope I spelled that right).It might be a great feature for an FPS player that is used to consistent difficulty all the time, but it goes against the basic RPG principle - improving your character in relation to the outside world.
Again, I think your comment about Oblivion being an FPS is so far out that I can't even comprehend why you so vehemently stick to that point of view other than for the reason that you're either afraid to be proved wrong or are trying in some way to start a heated debate. You have yet to come up with an argument that is close to being valid. Having similar control layout does not turn a game from one genre into another. Having scaled encounter difficulty and teleportation (which I never use in Oblivion btw) does not turn a game from one genre into another. What makes this whole thing so darn funny to me is that if there's one genre that I don't like, it's FPS. They do absolutely nothing for me. At best, I might find an FPS interesting for a day or two. Years can literally pass between me playing an FPS. Then how come Oblivion is one of my top 5 favorite games ever and is still on my HD? If it's an FPS as you claim, then surely I would not have put as much time into it as I have, right?
Just like you, I never play FPS games, just like I didnt play Oblivion for more than a few hours because it felt too much like one. The gameplay to me seems like an FPS game - I had to aim with my cursor, I could fast travel anywhere on the map, I had this quest tracker that showed me the way, and I had the feeling that everything has the same difficulty just like in an FPS game.
Level scaling goes against the very principles of RPG - leveling system. Why do you need to get +5 hit points and +2 damage everytime you level up, when the same happens to all monsters in the world?
Level scaling also goes against exploration. The way its used in Oblivion with respawns, why would you explore the dungeon in the far corner, and not just wait until everything respawns in the very first dungeon. The loot and mobs are randomized and scaled to your level. Again, this is an FPS design, not RPG.
The simple reason that you know that everything scales to your level, and the loot is also randomized to your level, is totally anti RPG and goes against the basic RPG element - which is again, improving your character.
Again, RPG's were not originally about story, and just because it's more popular nowadays to have some background reason to go down and clear that dungeon, doesn't mean that it's its main feature. Its main feature is to gain experience, and new loot to feel more powerful in compare to the outside world.
Games heavy on story, were always adventure games and now also FPS games. If you think you need level scaling to have constantly same difficulty all the time, and you like to aim with your mouse cursor to kill things, I'm puzzled why you're not playing FPS instead.
I agree you have a point about avoiding situations when the player is too powerful or too weak for the designed creatures in PnP - which is interfered by the GM at the very moment. But I'm sure the GM doesn't do it all the time for all the fights. He might do little changes now and then, but if he does it constantly throughout the adventure, I'm sure the players will notice. And I would never want to let the players know while I'm being a GM that im constantly "cheating" and changing my original - logical and natural plan I had just to match the player's power level.
Yes level scaling does occasionally work from time to time for important encounters, but not for the whole world. That's just ridiculous.
PS: Oblivion was definetly not the first game with level scaling.
Again, RPG's were not originally about story, and just because it's more popular nowadays to have some background reason to go down and clear that dungeon, doesn't mean that it's its main feature. Its main feature is to gain experience, and new loot to feel more powerful in compare to the outside world.
Games heavy on story, were always adventure games and now also FPS games. If you think you need level scaling to have constantly same difficulty all the time, and you like to aim with your mouse cursor to kill things, I'm puzzled why you're not playing FPS instead.
I really (really *really* really) get the sense that Thallian has never played a PnP RPG other than D&D and if exposed to a game like World of Darkness, Spirit of the Century, or even Hero System would probably start a whole long new rant explaining how those aren't RPGs either...
Just like you, I never play FPS games, just like I didnt play Oblivion for more than a few hours because it felt too much like one. The gameplay to me seems like an FPS game - I had to aim with my cursor, I could fast travel anywhere on the map, I had this quest tracker that showed me the way, and I had the feeling that everything has the same difficulty just like in an FPS game.
Level scaling goes against the very principles of RPG - leveling system. Why do you need to get +5 hit points and +2 damage everytime you level up, when the same happens to all monsters in the world?
Level scaling also goes against exploration. The way its used in Oblivion with respawns, why would you explore the dungeon in the far corner, and not just wait until everything respawns in the very first dungeon. The loot and mobs are randomized and scaled to your level. Again, this is an FPS design, not RPG.
The simple reason that you know that everything scales to your level, and the loot is also randomized to your level, is totally anti RPG and goes against the basic RPG element - which is again, improving your character.
Again, RPG's were not originally about story, and just because it's more popular nowadays to have some background reason to go down and clear that dungeon, doesn't mean that it's its main feature. Its main feature is to gain experience, and new loot to feel more powerful in compare to the outside world.
Games heavy on story, were always adventure games and now also FPS games. If you think you need level scaling to have constantly same difficulty all the time, and you like to aim with your mouse cursor to kill things, I'm puzzled why you're not playing FPS instead.
I agree you have a point about avoiding situations when the player is too powerful or too weak for the designed creatures in PnP - which is interfered by the GM at the very moment. But I'm sure the GM doesn't do it all the time for all the fights. He might do little changes now and then, but if he does it constantly throughout the adventure, I'm sure the players will notice. And I would never want to let the players know while I'm being a GM that im constantly "cheating" and changing my original - logical and natural plan I had just to match the player's power level.
Yes level scaling does occasionally work from time to time for important encounters, but not for the whole world. That's just ridiculous.
PS: Oblivion was definetly not the first game with level scaling.
Look. just because it feels like an FPS to you because of the way you control your character (ie. aiming), teleportation and the fixed level of difficulty... well... that doesn't magically turn it from an RPG into an FPS. I have yet to come across a professional review, gaming site or online store that lists Oblivion as an FPS. I'll take their word over yours any day of the week. Sorry if that bugs you. I do agree that it is action and somewhat twitch oriented. If you don't like that, fair enough - more power to ya. Just don't make a fool of yourself by going around claiming it's something that it isn't. Instead, call it action or real time RPG (ARPG? RTRPG?) if you absolutely must make a distinction for one reason or the other.
As for the rest of your post - apples vs. oranges is basically what sums it up. You may think that it's all about gaining experience and loot, but it's not. That's one way to play the game and certainly one of the more popular ones. But it's not the only way and PnP RPG evolution supports that. There's more to PnP RPG than D&D ya know. But again, if hack'n'slashing through dungeons for experience and loot is what makes you happy, by all means continue to do so and have fun with it. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that and I won't stop you. I don't have a problem with it. What I have a problem with is you claiming that because that's how things were in the beginning, then clearly that's how it should always be and everything else is either invalid or insignificant. Hate to say it, but the world doesn't live in the past.
Btw, at the end of my "career" before the reality of adult life scattered my group all over the world, I ran most sessions by the seat of my pants. I made most stuff up on the spot with only some overall notes and ideas to guide me. I found that in-depth preparation was mostly a waste of time and often ruined the game because it made me prone to wanting to railroad the players back in place when they went off the beaten path to explore something I had not prepared for. A positive side effect of running sessions by the seat of my pants was that the players never noticed when I was "cheating" or changing the plan because there was almost no plan to begin with.
PS: Where did I state that Oblivion was the first game to use level scaling? What's your point to that comment?
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
I really (really *really* really) get the sense that Thallian has never played a PnP RPG other than D&D and if exposed to a game like World of Darkness, Spirit of the Century, or even Hero System would probably start a whole long new rant explaining how those aren't RPGs either...
LOL - yeah
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Thillian - Hates fun. And many many times cant see the forest for the trees. Poor guy.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Again, RPG's were not originally about story, and just because it's more popular nowadays to have some background reason to go down and clear that dungeon, doesn't mean that it's its main feature. Its main feature is to gain experience, and new loot to feel more powerful in compare to the outside world.
Games heavy on story, were always adventure games and now also FPS games. If you think you need level scaling to have constantly same difficulty all the time, and you like to aim with your mouse cursor to kill things, I'm puzzled why you're not playing FPS instead.
I really (really *really* really) get the sense that Thallian has never played a PnP RPG other than D&D and if exposed to a game like World of Darkness, Spirit of the Century, or even Hero System would probably start a whole long new rant explaining how those aren't RPGs either...
Most of the PnP games I played as a GM was actually Call of Cthulhu 1st edition about 25 years ago and Vampire:tM WoD.
I have yet to come across a professional review, gaming site or online store that lists Oblivion as an FPS. I'll take their word over yours any day of the week.
You use the opinion of others to support some point you can't otherwise defend. I don't care how many people goes against me and think differently. You see, that's actually thinking outside of the box and not just following the general consensus like a sheep.
But let's leave it at that. You think RPG is mainly about story, I think RPG is mainly about progressing your character. The dead end in the discussion.
Originally posted by Thillian Originally posted by Faelan
I have yet to come across a professional review, gaming site or online store that lists Oblivion as an FPS. I'll take their word over yours any day of the week.
You use the opinion of others to support some point you can't otherwise defend. I don't care how many people goes against me and think differently. You see, that's actually thinking outside of the box and not just following the general consensus like a sheep. But let's leave it at that. You think RPG is mainly about story, I think RPG is mainly about progressing your character. The dead end in the discussion.
Thousands of marines have died overseas for your right to be wrong.
I have yet to come across a professional review, gaming site or online store that lists Oblivion as an FPS. I'll take their word over yours any day of the week.
You use the opinion of others to support some point you can't otherwise defend. I don't care how many people goes against me and think differently. You see, that's actually thinking outside of the box and not just following the general consensus like a sheep.
But let's leave it at that. You think RPG is mainly about story, I think RPG is mainly about progressing your character. The dead end in the discussion.
I won't claim to be all knowing on this subject, hence I point to others because I have faith in them being more knowlegable on the subject than me (and you), since it's something they deal with on an everyday basis. If you came to me and claimed that you could cure my illness by drilling a hole in my head to let out the evil spirits and stick leeches on my body to suck out the debilitating poison in my veins, I'd point to the professional doctors and say "sorry, ain't gonna happen". You could very well be damn right, but in that case you have yet to provide convincing evidence as to why the earth is round and not flat. Do that and I will follow you in your crusade. However, until then, I'll just view you as another preacher trying to get followers for his new-age religion.
The thing is, using your reasoning for classifying Oblivion as an FPS rather than an RPG, I could turn around and reclassify the WWI and WWII flight simulators that I love to play as FPS games as well. I mean, you look out of the eyes of the pilot, you have to control the plane to dodge and aim, you shoot your guns (that makes it a shooter right there, eh?), your "quest" objectives are clearly marked on the map, you have timeskip functions and the campaign mission engine tends to create balanced mission, giving it a sameish feel in difficulty. They even have quick mission generators for instant in-the-air action and multiplayer killing mayhem is a big part for many people playing them. There's also very little character development. Surely they must be first-person shooters then?
I don't need to defend anything here. It's you who dug the hole so deep that you think lava is water and rock the sky.
Anyway, as amusing as this discussion has turned out to be, there are other things that I need to attend to and as you've pointed out, I think we've reached the point where we just have to agree on disagreeing, which is perfectly fair. Such is life. You can never agree with everybody. Keep thinking of Oblivion as an FPS if that makes you happy, but be wary of posting such claims unless you're willing to defend them... oh and keep playing RPGs the way you like it. When it comes to the latter, there is absolutely no right or wrong way to do it and I hope that's not the impression I gave you, nor am I trying to convert you into my way of thinking. I merely wanted to point out that it's far from the only way and that PnP RPG evolution supports that claim, which has also been bleeding over into CRPGs.
This will be my last post on the subject. Good luck and...
/salute
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Comments
I haven't played in almost 10 months, but I seem to recall another 24 man raid? Has everyone already forgotten about the giant spider nest next to that city in Angmar?
I'm not saying you can't take it on without a 24 man raid, I've actually witnessed it being soloed when level cap was 60, someone correct me if I'm wrong though.
I agree with that , Philly. It was an exercise in torture if a group member had to drop for some reason.
That is simply not true. Remember how the D&D first RPG was created. There was D&D chainmail, simple combat between characters/monsters - what's now basically miniature wargames. There was no story apart from the background history of the world.
The first edition of D&D in 1974 was hardly about a story. It was about rolling a char, going down into dungeon, and killing & looting everything. There were no rules yet for adventures above ground.
I agree tho that story is getting more attention nowadays. Again, if we come back to the past of cRPG - true rogue-like RPG games, later on D&D SSI adaptations - eyes of beholders, pool of radiance etc, were all primarily about rolling a party and then killing everything in the dungeon with at least 12 levels. Again, story was so poor in those games, that it was hardly the main reason why would anyone play it.
Nothing was ever scaled, in cRPGs or PnP sessions you could see your character improving in relation to the world out there. Games like Oblivion where everything scales up / down to you and a camp where you first met some junky bandits, were later on replaced by bandits in full dandric armor (hope I spelled that right).It might be a great feature for an FPS player that is used to consistent difficulty all the time, but it goes against the basic RPG principle - improving your character in relation to the outside world.
REALITY CHECK
Correct.
What you're describing is the very early evolution of PnP RPG. When you look back at the whole picture, it's pretty clear that story and character background has become much more important over time. The step from Chainmail to 1st ed. D&D itself portrays that. It's a babystep, but a significant step nonetheless. The game was suddenly changing focus to single characters rather than armies. Characters that had names, professions and backgrounds. Campaign worlds such as Grey Hawk, Forgotten Realms and Krynn (Dragon Lance) came into existence during the time of 1st ed AD&D (although it wasn't really until 2nd ed AD&D that Forgotten Realms became a true published setting). By 2nd ed AD&D the storyline had become a very important part to a lot of people and spawned a whole new era of products and playstyles that went so far as to even include diceless systems.
When 4th ed D&D became a reality, many people were very disappointed with how the game has shifted focus back to its roots of going into dungeons, kicking in the door, killing the monsters, loot the treasure and level up. Many people complain that it now feels more like an MMO than an RPG. Interestingly enough, one of the big selling points of 4th ed. D&D is that it's easy to tweak and scale the encounters on the fly so that the game remains balanced with a minimum amount of effort from the dungeonmaster. This trend started in 3rd ed, but often required a lot of work and was not practical during actual play. So since 3rd ed, it has not been uncommon to kill goblins at first level and then encounter some really nasty scaled up goblins at 10th level or beyond.
As for the computer based RPGs, I very much remember playing those early ones for their story. No, they weren't as developed in storyline as those of today, but neither were the graphics and I remember playing some games for the "fantastic" graphics they had back then as well. Developers were still trying to figure out how to do things with very limited amounts of hardware, RAM in particular, and the target audience was different than that of today. The mechanical rules of pen'n'paper RPGs turned out to be very easy to translate into something a computer could understand, so naturally they focused on that to begin with. However, as with the P'n'P RPGs, its obvious that CRPGs have evolved over time to focus more on the storyline than the mechanics compared to those early games.
It's interesting to note that MMOs were a step backwards in that respect. The open nature of MMOs has made it difficult to create deep involving storylines since there are so many variables and very little control. It's no big wonder why there is such a focus on character development and grinding for stuff. It's a great way to keep people occupied, which is key in a subscription based game.
When it comes to the scaling part in Oblivion, this is what in my experience took place in most of the pen'n'paper RPGs I participated in. The fact that the first CRPGs didn't do it, doesn't make it right. It just means that they didn't have the capability. It was the gamemaster who was the critical component. A good gamemaster made sure that people were having a great time and created the storyline. He placed the monsters and treasure in a way that made some sense (bad ones just used the random tables). Many of them even drew up their own worlds. He also modified and scaled encounters as necessary so as to not make it too easy or too frustrating. These tasks are very complicated to put into some sort of logic that can be programmed into a computer and as a result, this part of CRPGs has always lagged behind. The fact that Oblivion DOES scale just show some attempt at evolution in this area. Of course, a real gamemaster knows when to scale and when not to. Oblivion isn't as refined in this area.
Again, I think your comment about Oblivion being an FPS is so far out that I can't even comprehend why you so vehemently stick to that point of view other than for the reason that you're either afraid to be proved wrong or are trying in some way to start a heated debate. You have yet to come up with an argument that is close to being valid. Having similar control layout does not turn a game from one genre into another. Having scaled encounter difficulty and teleportation (which I never use in Oblivion btw) does not turn a game from one genre into another. What makes this whole thing so darn funny to me is that if there's one genre that I don't like, it's FPS. They do absolutely nothing for me. At best, I might find an FPS interesting for a day or two. Years can literally pass between me playing an FPS. Then how come Oblivion is one of my top 5 favorite games ever and is still on my HD? If it's an FPS as you claim, then surely I would not have put as much time into it as I have, right?
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Just like you, I never play FPS games, just like I didnt play Oblivion for more than a few hours because it felt too much like one. The gameplay to me seems like an FPS game - I had to aim with my cursor, I could fast travel anywhere on the map, I had this quest tracker that showed me the way, and I had the feeling that everything has the same difficulty just like in an FPS game.
Level scaling goes against the very principles of RPG - leveling system. Why do you need to get +5 hit points and +2 damage everytime you level up, when the same happens to all monsters in the world?
Level scaling also goes against exploration. The way its used in Oblivion with respawns, why would you explore the dungeon in the far corner, and not just wait until everything respawns in the very first dungeon. The loot and mobs are randomized and scaled to your level. Again, this is an FPS design, not RPG.
The simple reason that you know that everything scales to your level, and the loot is also randomized to your level, is totally anti RPG and goes against the basic RPG element - which is again, improving your character.
Again, RPG's were not originally about story, and just because it's more popular nowadays to have some background reason to go down and clear that dungeon, doesn't mean that it's its main feature. Its main feature is to gain experience, and new loot to feel more powerful in compare to the outside world.
Games heavy on story, were always adventure games and now also FPS games. If you think you need level scaling to have constantly same difficulty all the time, and you like to aim with your mouse cursor to kill things, I'm puzzled why you're not playing FPS instead.
I agree you have a point about avoiding situations when the player is too powerful or too weak for the designed creatures in PnP - which is interfered by the GM at the very moment. But I'm sure the GM doesn't do it all the time for all the fights. He might do little changes now and then, but if he does it constantly throughout the adventure, I'm sure the players will notice. And I would never want to let the players know while I'm being a GM that im constantly "cheating" and changing my original - logical and natural plan I had just to match the player's power level.
Yes level scaling does occasionally work from time to time for important encounters, but not for the whole world. That's just ridiculous.
PS: Oblivion was definetly not the first game with level scaling.
REALITY CHECK
I really (really *really* really) get the sense that Thallian has never played a PnP RPG other than D&D and if exposed to a game like World of Darkness, Spirit of the Century, or even Hero System would probably start a whole long new rant explaining how those aren't RPGs either...
Look. just because it feels like an FPS to you because of the way you control your character (ie. aiming), teleportation and the fixed level of difficulty... well... that doesn't magically turn it from an RPG into an FPS. I have yet to come across a professional review, gaming site or online store that lists Oblivion as an FPS. I'll take their word over yours any day of the week. Sorry if that bugs you. I do agree that it is action and somewhat twitch oriented. If you don't like that, fair enough - more power to ya. Just don't make a fool of yourself by going around claiming it's something that it isn't. Instead, call it action or real time RPG (ARPG? RTRPG?) if you absolutely must make a distinction for one reason or the other.
As for the rest of your post - apples vs. oranges is basically what sums it up. You may think that it's all about gaining experience and loot, but it's not. That's one way to play the game and certainly one of the more popular ones. But it's not the only way and PnP RPG evolution supports that. There's more to PnP RPG than D&D ya know. But again, if hack'n'slashing through dungeons for experience and loot is what makes you happy, by all means continue to do so and have fun with it. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that and I won't stop you. I don't have a problem with it. What I have a problem with is you claiming that because that's how things were in the beginning, then clearly that's how it should always be and everything else is either invalid or insignificant. Hate to say it, but the world doesn't live in the past.
Btw, at the end of my "career" before the reality of adult life scattered my group all over the world, I ran most sessions by the seat of my pants. I made most stuff up on the spot with only some overall notes and ideas to guide me. I found that in-depth preparation was mostly a waste of time and often ruined the game because it made me prone to wanting to railroad the players back in place when they went off the beaten path to explore something I had not prepared for. A positive side effect of running sessions by the seat of my pants was that the players never noticed when I was "cheating" or changing the plan because there was almost no plan to begin with.
PS: Where did I state that Oblivion was the first game to use level scaling? What's your point to that comment?
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
LOL - yeah
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Thillian - Hates fun. And many many times cant see the forest for the trees. Poor guy.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Most of the PnP games I played as a GM was actually Call of Cthulhu 1st edition about 25 years ago and Vampire:tM WoD.
REALITY CHECK
You use the opinion of others to support some point you can't otherwise defend. I don't care how many people goes against me and think differently. You see, that's actually thinking outside of the box and not just following the general consensus like a sheep.
But let's leave it at that. You think RPG is mainly about story, I think RPG is mainly about progressing your character. The dead end in the discussion.
REALITY CHECK
You use the opinion of others to support some point you can't otherwise defend. I don't care how many people goes against me and think differently. You see, that's actually thinking outside of the box and not just following the general consensus like a sheep.
But let's leave it at that. You think RPG is mainly about story, I think RPG is mainly about progressing your character. The dead end in the discussion.
Thousands of marines have died overseas for your right to be wrong.
God bless the good ol' US of A.
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I won't claim to be all knowing on this subject, hence I point to others because I have faith in them being more knowlegable on the subject than me (and you), since it's something they deal with on an everyday basis. If you came to me and claimed that you could cure my illness by drilling a hole in my head to let out the evil spirits and stick leeches on my body to suck out the debilitating poison in my veins, I'd point to the professional doctors and say "sorry, ain't gonna happen". You could very well be damn right, but in that case you have yet to provide convincing evidence as to why the earth is round and not flat. Do that and I will follow you in your crusade. However, until then, I'll just view you as another preacher trying to get followers for his new-age religion.
The thing is, using your reasoning for classifying Oblivion as an FPS rather than an RPG, I could turn around and reclassify the WWI and WWII flight simulators that I love to play as FPS games as well. I mean, you look out of the eyes of the pilot, you have to control the plane to dodge and aim, you shoot your guns (that makes it a shooter right there, eh?), your "quest" objectives are clearly marked on the map, you have timeskip functions and the campaign mission engine tends to create balanced mission, giving it a sameish feel in difficulty. They even have quick mission generators for instant in-the-air action and multiplayer killing mayhem is a big part for many people playing them. There's also very little character development. Surely they must be first-person shooters then?
I don't need to defend anything here. It's you who dug the hole so deep that you think lava is water and rock the sky.
Anyway, as amusing as this discussion has turned out to be, there are other things that I need to attend to and as you've pointed out, I think we've reached the point where we just have to agree on disagreeing, which is perfectly fair. Such is life. You can never agree with everybody. Keep thinking of Oblivion as an FPS if that makes you happy, but be wary of posting such claims unless you're willing to defend them... oh and keep playing RPGs the way you like it. When it comes to the latter, there is absolutely no right or wrong way to do it and I hope that's not the impression I gave you, nor am I trying to convert you into my way of thinking. I merely wanted to point out that it's far from the only way and that PnP RPG evolution supports that claim, which has also been bleeding over into CRPGs.
This will be my last post on the subject. Good luck and...
/salute
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.