A type of game where each player assumes the role of a fictional character, as if the character was part of a novel. The player tries to make decisions that matches the knowledge and interests of this fictional character. The fictional world is controlled by the game master. This character is embodied by a set of values which determine the competencies of this fictional character (how good she is at something). bla bla …
This. The fact that game technology couldn't make this happen in an MMO environment is not justification for changing the definition. If MMOs can't do it, they need a) a different name, and b) to keep developing the tech until you can actually play the game by assuming the role of a fictional character in a story setting, making decisions that match the knowledge and interests of the character, and exercising the competencies of the character as you play out the story.
Instead of min-maxing ur uberDPS class to grind teh phat lewt faster.
Role Playing Game. Pretty simple. Like a hamburger is a hamburger; sure, its round like a applepie, but it is still a burger. If you forget to add the salat, the ketchup, the tomato and the spices its still a hamburger. A bad one. Thats what happend to 80% of so called CRPGs & even more MMORPGs. They may be good games, but a good game with a borrowed RPG element does not make it a good RPG or an RPG at all.
For me the RPG in MMORPG, is the video game RPG mainly. But usually I dont really care about this. Or the word sandbox for example.
Nowadays with MMO's I look at the offerend features and what gamemechanics are tied to them. I use this both to determine for myself if its a game for me and as comparison with other MMO's to check if the game is worth the expenses.
I can easily say that a MMO is too pricey with its payment model, if it offers less features/content then other MMO's that ask the same money. Lately there have been examples of this, where some new MMO's tried to ask more for less. This then has nothing to do with my personal taste in MMO's. If its too obvious though, it can turn me off that MMO, no matter if I would like it. I just dont like to be treated as some ignorant customer.
As for the question if a MMO is really a MMORPG, I usually dont care. I try to keep an open mind with new MMO's, so that I dont turn into one of those old school players who think that every new MMO is subpar, because it doesnt have the exact same mechanics as the MMO they started with.
I beleive that MMORPGS for me is about many things. Creating your persona, your backstory to your character, giving yourself a reputation, conversing with strangers and random invdividuals within the gaming environment to build friends and allies and also a community.
You combine all of that with the gameplay and the combat within a game and you have a foundation for an MMORPG to emmerse yourself in. Not just to play because it passes the time. But something that means more. Something that sucks you into the world, something that makes you wonder where the time went after thinking you only been on 30mins and you have actually be sitting there 4-5 hours...
This is well said.
I like the quote from a film called Total Recall, that sums it up (sorta anyway!)
Recall Salesman: "What is the one thing that is always the same when you take a vacation?" [sales patter voice]
Doug Quaid: "I don't know, you've got me... ." [disinterested, mind is made up voice]
A different identity in a different world is ideally what an RPG is all about. An MMO needs to have very strong gameplay above all else. If this is the case, then RPG can diversify all the interactions between players with players, npc's and the actual ingame world of MMO's.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Generaly a good GM largely let the players do anything that was LOGICALY possible within the context of the game world and shifted the seeting to work around and react to what the players were doing. The published modules were good for doing "One Offs", especialy if you didn't want to invest much effort into prep, or you could write your own. Not so much for running a Campaign.
Trying to recreate your own "B2 Keep on the Borderlands" style modules was really pretty much a wasted effort unless you REALLY knew the players path would take them through it (like say at the very start of a campaign)....and even then I've seen guys type up reams of paper only to toss it out in the first 5 minutes of play.
Most GM's that I played with (and I did things this way too).... didn't have set modules written up... what they did was have notes (sometimes very extensive and detailed) about the major things that were going on in the Campaign Setting and Who the major powers/players were..... and then you pretty much ran things "off the cuff", using your imagination and knowledge of the Campaign setting... and reacting to what the players decided to do....and figuring how that would effect what was going on in the Campaign Setting.....and basicaly making it up as you went. You'd take notes of how the characters actions effected things..... and often times you could get a pretty decent feel for where the next play session(s) would take you. This DID require a pretty good imagination from the GM and also a very good understanding of how the Dynamics of your campaign world worked..... but if you had those "winnging it" usualy worked remarkably well. Note that you certain COULD and people DID create certain situations that the Players would expereince NO MATTER WHAT....and use some Deus Ex Machina to make it happen. That's perfectly fine.... IF YOU USE IT VERY SPARINGLY..... guys that used that too much quickly had thier players loose all interest in playing.
Sure you could wing it but those were quite haphazard affairs. But, again, its the Dungeon Master that did the winging. Sure there was the "world" which was usually about half the size of a WOW zone filled with small dungeons and lairs, some towns and the like but there was always a purpose, a guiding hand. Coming across a dead messenger, a burned out farm, rumors of wars, etc and of course the players could choose whether or not to follow one of those things but there were restrictions. In AD&D if you had a player playing a paladin or crusader it was always easy to lead people because if there is evil about and the paladin ignores it, bye bye special abilities and the like. Then the DM could pull out a module created for hte paladins' path back, or they became a fallen paladin. Same with clerical types depending on the deity that they followed.
The only DMs that winged it in my experience were those that were rather new to it or too lazy to develop full on adventures. I mean how in the hell are people going to jump into a dungeon without the dm having a map? Preparation was always key to a well run adventure, campaigns included. Spending months working on the thing always meant for a far more engaging experience for the players I played with rather than sitting there and going "ok ummmmmm you see, pause to get the monster manual out and roll the dice a few times, 2 kobold guards." The DMs I played with, and the kind of DM I was had full random encounter tables already worked out for the specific areas, had every town mapped and every npc already generated, had every event in the game world pre-thought out. Not with the outcomes mind you, but the start of events and branches from that event. If you knew your players, knew their classes you could tailor make everything for them which is what made the pen and paper experience more engaging than the mmos we play.
With what you have said, well World of Warcraft is a sandbox experience. There is nothing in the game that demands you do this quest or go to this area, players have every choice available to them except about whether to try and talk a boss mob down or to kill him in a less orthodox and more graceful way than just zerg rush. Which is more a limitation of programming and technology.
As to the using of the pre-built campaigns and modules, they were, like the rulebooks, starting points. Hell my copy of the Queen of the Demonweb pits does not lead the DM by the hand in a way to lead the players by the hand, but had 3/4ths or so of the work done for you: random ecounter and loot tables, key area maps and the like. They were not in any way a choose your own adventure book but, provided the dm with background on the area, and suggestions to provide the players with motivation. Everything else was up to the DM, the players, and the roll of the dice. This is the way every competent DM I have ever played with and the way I ran my campaigns.
Here is a quote from my original copy of Ravenloft: House on Gryphon Hill:
"DM Preparation: This game requires some preparation before you can play it. First, you should read and become as familiar as possible with not only the rules of this adventure but its feeling and texture as well. Skim through the adventure once to gain a sense of its pace and structure, then read through it thoroughly, paying special attention to the boxed descriptions. This should not only give you an understanding for how the adventure is to be run in detail, but also some sense of how to create Gothic horror descriptions."1
Maybe the modules have changed.... I am nearly 40 years old and this module is from 1986 but it is or was, as with every module I ever used or merged into one of my own campaigns, the way everything worked.
My point is that there are adventure gamers and rpg'ers. Dragon Age origins is standard fair rpg game, but Dragon Age 2 is sounding far more like an adventure game. The original article does not seem to really grasp the essence of what was pen and paper rpgs, the only part of the article that holds any merit, imo, is this: "Unfortunately, while the pen and paper system works very well for small groups of players, the whole thing begins to fall apart when you start to bring the numbers up into the thousands or tens of thousands. That’s where it becomes a) difficult to create enough content within the world to satisfy that many people on an individual or small group level and b) even more difficult to allow each quest completed or action taken affect the game world as a whole."2
2Dissecting the Acronym: RPG. Jon Woods. 2010 mmorpg.com
-edited to properly cite the sources
Well, I'm certainly not going to try to dispute your anecdotal experience....it is what it is... I'll just say that it's entirely different then what ours was. Generaly the guys using the published modules were the ones that didn't have much experience DMing or were not particularly good at it. Basicaly sitting there and trying to memorize the module or memorize the monster manual...or look stuff up while you were playing... would lead the GM to focus on the wrong stuff (IMO).
Why would the GM even bother writing up Random Encounter tables?... your the GM, you KNOW what kind of creatures wander through the Swamp of Darsis after dark. You don't need to roll a die and cross reference something on a chart you wrote up. PICK Something that you know is likely to be there.... heck if you really need at add a bit of randomness into it... roll a die to determine the severity of the encounter and then use your head/imagination to come up with something appropriate.... So a severe roll might be a Wraith....while a mundane roll might be a small swamp viper. As the GM, you already understand (in your head) WHY Wraiths might be encountered there (was once the border-lands for 2 warring ancient kingdoms long fallen to ruin).... you can even improv off that for the characters to track he Wraith back to it's barrow if that comes up....no need to write up a detailed map and encounter sheet....just have in you head a rough idea of what such a barrow might look like. Maybe sketch out a 2 minute map as the players make thier plans to enter.
It really doesn't matter what the monster manual or the module said the kobold guards should have for HP's or THACO... as long as the GM had a good feel for the system and how tough they should be....he can pretty much determine the numbers in his head...maybe take a couple of seconds to jot something down on a scratch sheet of paper when the combat is begining...in order to keep track of damage, etc.
As far as Mapping....you really don't need to draw out a detailed map....unless the players are taking the time to actualy pace room dimensions out...they'd only have a very rough idea...of dimensions anyway. Plus only a small number of scenerio's might occur in something approximating a classic dungeon anyways. Basicaly it was generaly sufficient to have in your head what they area looked like and how it pieced together.... If you needed to you could draw out a very rough sketch for yourself as a guide ahead of time.
Notes, of course, about what was going on in the campaign area and who the key powers were (as well as what the players did) were important....and sometimes these could get quite detailed and extensive.... but this really was very different then writing out a module like B2: Keep on the Borderlands or something.
It works remarkably well IF you have a GM that:
A) Has a solid understanding of the system they are running (Note that most of the time we weren't even running D&D systems...it was usualy somnething else....sometimes even homebrews).
Has a solid understanding of the Campaign World/Area and what is going on there (Helps if the GM is using one of thier own Design rather then a published one...but either can work)
C) Has a good imagination
D) Is comfortable with improvisation.
The real differences between something like WOW and a PnP campaign are:
1) WOW is largely static... the World doesn't change very much over time. The same NPC that was in area 1 for the players to defeat when they started the game is STILL in area 1 waiting to be defeated...and will be till the servers shut down.
2) The World is not VERY interactive. NOTHING the characters do has any effect on the world and honestly what happens in the World really doesn't have all that much effect on the characters either.
3) The options the character has for interacting with the world are EXTREMELY limited.... (i.e. Even though the door is made of flimsy wood and your character has a 2-handed axe on your back...you can't CHOP your way through the door...you must PICK THE LOCK...because the Dev hasn't coded the mechanism for CHOPPING down a door into the game yet).
Taken all-together this really makes something like WOW much more of a graphical 3D "Choose Your Own Adventure" book rather then a PnP style RPG game. I understand the reasons for it...particularly the technical reasons... but that is pretty much what it boils down to (IMO).
Roleplaying means "To act out." In fact those who major in Theater Arts know that close to half of those credits are about improving abilities to roleplay character and the other half deals with history, along with topics like set, prop and scene creation along with screenwriting.
I was a kid when I started doing tabletop roleplaying. I don't argue about whether a game has 10 people or 1 million people. That is not the point. The point is if the pure essence of the definition is still captured in a game. That is what my argument has always been:
Roleplaying deals with becoming part of the world and assuming a different character. Computer Games give you a full world you get to live in, but your characters always "Stand Out" in that world and are never "normal." The interraction with the world is Abyssmal at most. You get to kill monsters, buy equipment...and sometimes gather materials and craft....but that is the limit of the world. Weather effects tend to be just graphics and you can't take a non-martial role in the world you are in.
I would love to play a game where I wake up, its the middle of the night. I walk outside my character house in pajamas, being called by someone....Find a nice herb and pick it up and craft by a lake, while the sun comes up and then have another player character come to me and say his shop is opening up soon...bringing me some bread, while he is wearing just basic clothes. A patrol walking by us saying that its dangerous at night, that bandits are lurking around....complain about the guy carrying a weapon with him. Then walking across the field, while the sun is coming up....and when the bandit shows up and knocks me out, I can look at the environment and grab a stick or a farm tool from the ground and use it as a weapon...Hit the bandit freely like in an action or adventure game...No stats, none of that crap...just swing a weapon like in a fighting game, action game, adventure game..if it hits, it hits, if it misses it misses. If I am chased to climb trees....climb places or to run and swim in water.
So, now what if I spoke about Tabletop roleplaying games and First Person? I don't mean First Person as in First Person SHooter...I mean First Person as just that. What the author of this post forgot to mention is that in TableTop Roleplaying and any roleplaying in the real world is told in First Person. A lot of MMORPGs have no real first person story and you have a third person view of the character. Your story consists of talking to NPCs where you are bombarded with a wall of text.
You get one of four Quest Types:
Hunting Quests: Kill a certain amount of monsters in a field or Kill a certain Boss
Traveling Quests: Reach a certain point and contact an NPC or press a trigger or switch.
Delivery Quests: Find or Receive a target Item and deliver it to an NPC.
Capture Quests: Capture a target or point and report it.
Outside of these quests...you don't really get a character (self) story. Your character has no real story to the world he or she is part of. You get 1000s of quests out there, all which fall among these four or a combination of the four, rewritten in 1000s of differen ways to hide the fact you are really repeating the same thing 1000s of times over. You get a glimpse of the world's story...but your character in that world nearly has no story...which is why that is a failure of roleplaying.
"The world from your eyes demands you are part of that world and not ignored and treated as an entity to simply see a world without a place in it"
RPGs should be renamed to "Turn Based Adventure Games" TAGs...which is what I tend to call them. All of these RPG and MMORPGs follow the exact mentality of an Adventure Game...Where one goes around fighting in real time, and by action..meaning if I press an attack button, I attack...I dont wait for a Dexterity stat to attack for me. The idea is to create a super character to live and usually in adventure games one increases in life over a period of time as one explores the world. RPGs/MMORPGs put an attribute based system that turns the adventure into a Turn-Based frenzy where entire parties organize 10 ft apart from a large enemy and engage in "organized" button clicking where if one person breaks the pattern, the entire party dies.
One game I love is Final Fantasy XII. A singleplayer Playstation II game. Why do I like it? The replay value is so high that you can actually beat the entire game without ever cheating at all the start levels of the characters. Guides exist to this..they are called 122333 guides (The start levels of the six characters.)
The reason I mentioned FFXII is because the game offers multiple ways of playing through the story and beating ALL ENEMIES IN THE GAME, where as most MMORPGs offer only one clear route to play the game per character. One reason I like Guild Wars is because of how fantastic it is that one can change skills and have a completely fresh character...but it still lacks ENVIRONMENT INTERRACTION like 90% of the games out there. BTW, FFXII had a weather system programmed for certain maps and depending where you went, Magic was amplified. Casting an Ice spell in an Ice Region hit for 20% more damage. A lot of environmental effects existed so you could be getting your ass kicked, run to a fire zone and have fire magic amplified. The game scored a perfect score in Famitsu Magazine along with some European and American rating groups.
Anyone reading this post, I thank you...My present to you is an exercise for you and only you My thanks to you. Simply close your eyes, think of a character and imagine...Simply have a dream for five minutes in first person. Imagine what world this character lives in, comes from and what he or she does in it. Now see if you can get that level of depth in an MMORPG and RPG. That alone can give each individual an answer.
As I have stated in other posts, we need to look a this question in terms of 1) Programmers expect a paycheck to work on these titles, and 2) Players expect to be entertained by these titles.
With that in mind, my take is that when I come to a game to play a "role," that role is of course to be the hero of the realm. If I just want to observe a story where some OTHER good guy wins, I'll just pop in the third Lord of the Rings DvD and be an observer to Aragorn's coronation.
Because I understand that everyone else has a different computer (could be better or worse than mine), different distractions (work, kids, lousy internet connection - the list is endless), and varying degrees of passion for a game, such things as PvP kills or "who's ahead" in the online world have little meaning to me. I'm not there to compete, I'm there to be entertained and play the "role" of the hero.
What matters to me is, am I being entertained in the best way possible for the venue? Because computer games are interactive, I then expect to be the hero of the scene, not some mere observer or helper. That is the "role" I am seeking. Other players exist merely as people to communicate and socialize with, not as competitors or foes. I don't care what some loser in upstate NY with no job thinks of me or my character - I care what the NPCs of the realm think and how my exploits for their well-being are rewarded.
RPG, hmm. Any game where I'm moving the character around, I consider to be role playing. It can be a kind of escape from the real world around us, or it can be a way to socialize and play together online with friends who have similar interests (one of which being that you both chose the same game to play!)
Sometimes, the people introduce drama. Not cool! This happens when people confuse the fact that real life is also role playing, but should not be messily confused with playing in the game. The real human should always be real-life playing a polite and friendly human who is controling an avatar that can be brutal in PVP, but helpful in sharing cool dungeon drops with guildmates. And they should always keep in mind the 'G'. These are GAMES! I play hours and hours in World of Warcraft with dozens of 'toons' (short for cartoons, that I use in place of the term avatar). I've played it for years (since BC i.e. Burning Crusade). Before WoW, I played in Second Life (technically a MUVE), Last Chaos, Runescape, Perfect World, Aion, and Rift. I tried out Aion and RIft when they came out, but I still prefer WoW for the game. The world, music, quests, dungeons, bosses, pvp areas, auction house, professions, and the story lines (that some people complain are absent because they never looked for them.) World of Warcraft, I have firmly decided, will be my "last PC game ever."
Some people play AS their toons, and some people play WITH their toons. I am the latter. Most of the other players don't understand why I play, since I don't like PvP and actively avoid it. I also don't like dungeons and have to be reluctantly persuaded into them by online friends. ALL of my toons do gathering and crafting professions and MAKE stuff! Engineering, tailoring, enchantments, inscription, blacksmithing, leatherworking, alchemy - I have ALL the professions on at least one or more of my toons. Role playing? My Mages are my "transportation specialists" using Portals to move friends or my alts on my other WoW account. ALL my toons are playing some 'role' in the game, whether or not they are interacting with other players.
I haven't yet read all the other posts in this thread, but has anyone else mentioned gender crossing with their avatars? But actually, that should be an entirely separate discussion thread and no doubt already is, somewhere. I just had to toss in MMORPG = Many Men Online Role Playing Girls. and also G.I.R.L. = Guy In Real Life.
Personally, I make almost all female toons because I like looking at them. In WoW, the male humans all seem to be clones of Arthus. I do have preferences though. It's too bad the in-game human females don't look like the newest model on the Blizzard pages, but I guess they are more 'realistic' the way they are. Elve's ears are way too long. Could they be made adjustable the way Dranei horns are? Draenei are my favorites. I usually set the interface to hide the cloak and helmet. Watching the under-20 Dranei jogging along is rather hypnotic. On 60+ toons, hop on your gryphon, or Winged Guardian and simply go flying around the various areas with music and ambience sounds turned up. Oh yeah, this is DEFINITELY role playing. Someday, my mage with alchemy hopes to create the Vial of Sands and learn how to turn into a passenger-carrying flying Dragon. And THAT will be some awesome role-playing.
Erasmus said it in 1511 (well before Shakespeare) - “Now what else is the whole life of mortals, but a sort of comedy in which the various actors, disguised by various costumes and masks, walk on and play each ones part until the manager walks them off the stage?"
True RPGs are almost impossible to find anymore....Almsot every single MMO now focuses on "one character can do all" ....I think WoW in 2005 was the last time I played a true role in a game other than World of Dungeons which is a D&D pen and paper browser game.
Originally posted by Theocritus True RPGs are almost impossible to find anymore....Almsot every single MMO now focuses on "one character can do all" ....I think WoW in 2005 was the last time I played a true role in a game other than World of Dungeons which is a D&D pen and paper browser game.
Agreed! MMORPG's should be designed to encourage player interactions, and 'one character can do all' is still not possible (or even desirable!) in WoW. Sure, Deathknights, Hunters, Warlocks, and Mages with their ghouls, beasts, minions, and elementals can use those battle pets to sort of 'tank' for their character while they do the DPS in dungeons perhaps lower than their present level, but the Professions are another story! WoW's limitation of 2 main professions is perfect for inspiring players to create alts. An Engineer SHOULD have Mining, and so should a Blacksmith or Jeweler. An Inscriptionist or Alchemist SHOULD have Herbalism. And I discovered it might be handy for a Tailor to have Skinning, since they need leather to make boots. A Leatherworker obviously needs Skinning. But even with carefully chosen professions, the toons STILL help each other out, as the Blacksmith makes everybody's weapons, the Engineer makes their goggles, the Jeweler makes their trinkets and rings and gemstones. The Tailor, Leatherworker, and Blacksmith make everyone's Cloth, Leather, or Mail and Plate Armor. The Enchanter creates buffs for the armor and weapons. The Inscriptionist makes Glyphs for everyone, relics for whoever can use those, and ALSO "Enchanting Vellum" which the Enchanter can use to make portable or sellable buffs for armor and weapons that may be Soulbound. It's all teamwork! Even if, like me, you prefer to make a half dozen characters to do each combination of these professions for yourself on days when your guildmates don't happen to be online. Also, collecting is more effective if toons share the tasks. Any of my toons who get leftover armor drops that they can't use, send them on to my Enchanter to be disenchanted and decomposed into the many magic powders needed to create enchantments with. All the fabric that drops in dungeons gets sent to my Tailor after everyone else levels up their First Aid, making their own bandages. All the too-low-to-level raw fish my toons catch while doing the fishing dailies, get sent along to my lower toons who can still level up cooking with the freely caught fish. I have whole private guild vaults filled with mats shared between my toons. One character do it all? Where on earth would one character store enough mats to do all the professions! Jeepers! My scribe uses an entire page in the guild vault just for all the bottles of Inks! LOL! As I've said before, World of Warcraft will be my last game. For me, all the others pale by comparison. And to all the two-month old level 90's who never even tried professions - If you're in such a hurry to "finish" the game, why did you bother starting? Advice to anyone considering starting professions - do a little research first. It'll maybe save you grief in the end. You don't want to Get your Deathknight to 90 and Archaeology all the way up, only to discover you will NOT find the recipe for Vial of Sands or be able to use it unless you're a Mage with the high enough level Alchemy to use the recipe. No passenger carrying, flying dragon shape-shifting for you! Ouch! Plan ahead for the really cool things so you stand a chance of getting them.
Blacksmiths with Herbalism and Alchemists with Mining? Oh well, at least it will force THOSE two to trade mats with each other! lol!
p.s. - In WoW, when logging out, park your alts in Safe Zones (major cities) or in Inns so their face icon shows 'zzz' instead of their level. While they are in the safe zone and logged out, they accumulate "rest points" that will double XP gains when next logged in. That's why it's good to HAVE alts and let each toon rest in rest area during down time. The next time you play that rested character, XP points will rise much faster! Your XP bar in WoW will be Blue if you're still rested and gaining bonus points, and when it shifts to Purple, you've used up the rested bonus and should switch to another alt for a whlie. Most people know this, but not everyone and it really does help.
p.p.s. - All these professions are the 'roles' my toons or alts (I use synonymously) play in World of Warcraft. If my discussion of the professions in WoW help some new players, so much the better. The more familar "roles" might be when people join a 'party' to "run a dungeon" and need to collect players so they have someone for the role of Tank to take a beating and hold the boss monster's attention, while the DPSers (damage dealers) actually kill it, and while the "Healer" stands by healing whoever's health is dropping or whoever's most critical to the effort. Letting the tank die almost always ensures the rest of the party dies, so the healer needs to stay alert. Please be nice to the healer - it is often a thankless task and most people seem to want to be damage dealers or tanks because those characters are "tough", but please don't discourage the healers by badmouthing an occasional dungeon fail, or the next time they won't be there to help and you will all JUST DIE. If I saw a healer simply withdraw from a party after someone badmouths them, I'd say they were perfectly justified. Let the dead DPSer create a healer and see what thanks they don't get from ungrateful players. Or are they too chicken to run a dungeon wearing only cloth armor? Remember folks - it's just a game and you can always run a dungeon again the next day - but not if you upset all your friends until they abandon you for more courteous players. The goal is to HAVE FUN.
- I didn't mean to slight what Engineers contribute! They also make the two passenger Mekgineer's motorcycle. And one time in a dungeon, my Engineer successfully resurrected a very surprised dead healer on our team, by using the Goblin Jumper Cables. The Gnomish Army Knife can also sometimes be used for that by overloading its battery to rez someone. Of course, the Warlock can resurrect itself, provided they remembered to use a SoulStone within the last 15 minutes. My Warlock always tries to remember detail that just before engaging the final boss. It sure is handy to be able to pop back to life without help at least once, anyway. And besides cloth armor, the Tailors also make those incredibly huge bags that give you tons of slots for storing stuff!
Comments
This. The fact that game technology couldn't make this happen in an MMO environment is not justification for changing the definition. If MMOs can't do it, they need a) a different name, and b) to keep developing the tech until you can actually play the game by assuming the role of a fictional character in a story setting, making decisions that match the knowledge and interests of the character, and exercising the competencies of the character as you play out the story.
Instead of min-maxing ur uberDPS class to grind teh phat lewt faster.
Role Playing Game. Pretty simple. Like a hamburger is a hamburger; sure, its round like a applepie, but it is still a burger. If you forget to add the salat, the ketchup, the tomato and the spices its still a hamburger. A bad one. Thats what happend to 80% of so called CRPGs & even more MMORPGs. They may be good games, but a good game with a borrowed RPG element does not make it a good RPG or an RPG at all.
A place for a bit of chatting and playing.
A game is supposed for relaxation, not for a second life. You hop on, you hop off. That's it. A 3d world is so overestimated.
For me the RPG in MMORPG, is the video game RPG mainly. But usually I dont really care about this. Or the word sandbox for example.
Nowadays with MMO's I look at the offerend features and what gamemechanics are tied to them. I use this both to determine for myself if its a game for me and as comparison with other MMO's to check if the game is worth the expenses.
I can easily say that a MMO is too pricey with its payment model, if it offers less features/content then other MMO's that ask the same money. Lately there have been examples of this, where some new MMO's tried to ask more for less. This then has nothing to do with my personal taste in MMO's. If its too obvious though, it can turn me off that MMO, no matter if I would like it. I just dont like to be treated as some ignorant customer.
As for the question if a MMO is really a MMORPG, I usually dont care. I try to keep an open mind with new MMO's, so that I dont turn into one of those old school players who think that every new MMO is subpar, because it doesnt have the exact same mechanics as the MMO they started with.
This is well said.
I like the quote from a film called Total Recall, that sums it up (sorta anyway!)
Recall Salesman: "What is the one thing that is always the same when you take a vacation?" [sales patter voice]
Doug Quaid: "I don't know, you've got me... ." [disinterested, mind is made up voice]
Recall Salesman: "YOU!" [genuinely triumphant exclamation & palpable excitement!]
A different identity in a different world is ideally what an RPG is all about. An MMO needs to have very strong gameplay above all else. If this is the case, then RPG can diversify all the interactions between players with players, npc's and the actual ingame world of MMO's.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Well, I'm certainly not going to try to dispute your anecdotal experience....it is what it is... I'll just say that it's entirely different then what ours was. Generaly the guys using the published modules were the ones that didn't have much experience DMing or were not particularly good at it. Basicaly sitting there and trying to memorize the module or memorize the monster manual...or look stuff up while you were playing... would lead the GM to focus on the wrong stuff (IMO).
Why would the GM even bother writing up Random Encounter tables?... your the GM, you KNOW what kind of creatures wander through the Swamp of Darsis after dark. You don't need to roll a die and cross reference something on a chart you wrote up. PICK Something that you know is likely to be there.... heck if you really need at add a bit of randomness into it... roll a die to determine the severity of the encounter and then use your head/imagination to come up with something appropriate.... So a severe roll might be a Wraith....while a mundane roll might be a small swamp viper. As the GM, you already understand (in your head) WHY Wraiths might be encountered there (was once the border-lands for 2 warring ancient kingdoms long fallen to ruin).... you can even improv off that for the characters to track he Wraith back to it's barrow if that comes up....no need to write up a detailed map and encounter sheet....just have in you head a rough idea of what such a barrow might look like. Maybe sketch out a 2 minute map as the players make thier plans to enter.
It really doesn't matter what the monster manual or the module said the kobold guards should have for HP's or THACO... as long as the GM had a good feel for the system and how tough they should be....he can pretty much determine the numbers in his head...maybe take a couple of seconds to jot something down on a scratch sheet of paper when the combat is begining...in order to keep track of damage, etc.
As far as Mapping....you really don't need to draw out a detailed map....unless the players are taking the time to actualy pace room dimensions out...they'd only have a very rough idea...of dimensions anyway. Plus only a small number of scenerio's might occur in something approximating a classic dungeon anyways. Basicaly it was generaly sufficient to have in your head what they area looked like and how it pieced together.... If you needed to you could draw out a very rough sketch for yourself as a guide ahead of time.
Notes, of course, about what was going on in the campaign area and who the key powers were (as well as what the players did) were important....and sometimes these could get quite detailed and extensive.... but this really was very different then writing out a module like B2: Keep on the Borderlands or something.
It works remarkably well IF you have a GM that:
A) Has a solid understanding of the system they are running (Note that most of the time we weren't even running D&D systems...it was usualy somnething else....sometimes even homebrews).
C) Has a good imagination
D) Is comfortable with improvisation.
The real differences between something like WOW and a PnP campaign are:
1) WOW is largely static... the World doesn't change very much over time. The same NPC that was in area 1 for the players to defeat when they started the game is STILL in area 1 waiting to be defeated...and will be till the servers shut down.
2) The World is not VERY interactive. NOTHING the characters do has any effect on the world and honestly what happens in the World really doesn't have all that much effect on the characters either.
3) The options the character has for interacting with the world are EXTREMELY limited.... (i.e. Even though the door is made of flimsy wood and your character has a 2-handed axe on your back...you can't CHOP your way through the door...you must PICK THE LOCK...because the Dev hasn't coded the mechanism for CHOPPING down a door into the game yet).
Taken all-together this really makes something like WOW much more of a graphical 3D "Choose Your Own Adventure" book rather then a PnP style RPG game. I understand the reasons for it...particularly the technical reasons... but that is pretty much what it boils down to (IMO).
Roleplaying means "To act out." In fact those who major in Theater Arts know that close to half of those credits are about improving abilities to roleplay character and the other half deals with history, along with topics like set, prop and scene creation along with screenwriting.
I was a kid when I started doing tabletop roleplaying. I don't argue about whether a game has 10 people or 1 million people. That is not the point. The point is if the pure essence of the definition is still captured in a game. That is what my argument has always been:
Roleplaying deals with becoming part of the world and assuming a different character. Computer Games give you a full world you get to live in, but your characters always "Stand Out" in that world and are never "normal." The interraction with the world is Abyssmal at most. You get to kill monsters, buy equipment...and sometimes gather materials and craft....but that is the limit of the world. Weather effects tend to be just graphics and you can't take a non-martial role in the world you are in.
I would love to play a game where I wake up, its the middle of the night. I walk outside my character house in pajamas, being called by someone....Find a nice herb and pick it up and craft by a lake, while the sun comes up and then have another player character come to me and say his shop is opening up soon...bringing me some bread, while he is wearing just basic clothes. A patrol walking by us saying that its dangerous at night, that bandits are lurking around....complain about the guy carrying a weapon with him. Then walking across the field, while the sun is coming up....and when the bandit shows up and knocks me out, I can look at the environment and grab a stick or a farm tool from the ground and use it as a weapon...Hit the bandit freely like in an action or adventure game...No stats, none of that crap...just swing a weapon like in a fighting game, action game, adventure game..if it hits, it hits, if it misses it misses. If I am chased to climb trees....climb places or to run and swim in water.
So, now what if I spoke about Tabletop roleplaying games and First Person? I don't mean First Person as in First Person SHooter...I mean First Person as just that. What the author of this post forgot to mention is that in TableTop Roleplaying and any roleplaying in the real world is told in First Person. A lot of MMORPGs have no real first person story and you have a third person view of the character. Your story consists of talking to NPCs where you are bombarded with a wall of text.
You get one of four Quest Types:
Hunting Quests: Kill a certain amount of monsters in a field or Kill a certain Boss
Traveling Quests: Reach a certain point and contact an NPC or press a trigger or switch.
Delivery Quests: Find or Receive a target Item and deliver it to an NPC.
Capture Quests: Capture a target or point and report it.
Outside of these quests...you don't really get a character (self) story. Your character has no real story to the world he or she is part of. You get 1000s of quests out there, all which fall among these four or a combination of the four, rewritten in 1000s of differen ways to hide the fact you are really repeating the same thing 1000s of times over. You get a glimpse of the world's story...but your character in that world nearly has no story...which is why that is a failure of roleplaying.
"The world from your eyes demands you are part of that world and not ignored and treated as an entity to simply see a world without a place in it"
RPGs should be renamed to "Turn Based Adventure Games" TAGs...which is what I tend to call them. All of these RPG and MMORPGs follow the exact mentality of an Adventure Game...Where one goes around fighting in real time, and by action..meaning if I press an attack button, I attack...I dont wait for a Dexterity stat to attack for me. The idea is to create a super character to live and usually in adventure games one increases in life over a period of time as one explores the world. RPGs/MMORPGs put an attribute based system that turns the adventure into a Turn-Based frenzy where entire parties organize 10 ft apart from a large enemy and engage in "organized" button clicking where if one person breaks the pattern, the entire party dies.
One game I love is Final Fantasy XII. A singleplayer Playstation II game. Why do I like it? The replay value is so high that you can actually beat the entire game without ever cheating at all the start levels of the characters. Guides exist to this..they are called 122333 guides (The start levels of the six characters.)
The reason I mentioned FFXII is because the game offers multiple ways of playing through the story and beating ALL ENEMIES IN THE GAME, where as most MMORPGs offer only one clear route to play the game per character. One reason I like Guild Wars is because of how fantastic it is that one can change skills and have a completely fresh character...but it still lacks ENVIRONMENT INTERRACTION like 90% of the games out there. BTW, FFXII had a weather system programmed for certain maps and depending where you went, Magic was amplified. Casting an Ice spell in an Ice Region hit for 20% more damage. A lot of environmental effects existed so you could be getting your ass kicked, run to a fire zone and have fire magic amplified. The game scored a perfect score in Famitsu Magazine along with some European and American rating groups.
Anyone reading this post, I thank you...My present to you is an exercise for you and only you
My thanks to you. Simply close your eyes, think of a character and imagine...Simply have a dream for five minutes in first person. Imagine what world this character lives in, comes from and what he or she does in it. Now see if you can get that level of depth in an MMORPG and RPG. That alone can give each individual an answer. 
As I have stated in other posts, we need to look a this question in terms of 1) Programmers expect a paycheck to work on these titles, and 2) Players expect to be entertained by these titles.
With that in mind, my take is that when I come to a game to play a "role," that role is of course to be the hero of the realm. If I just want to observe a story where some OTHER good guy wins, I'll just pop in the third Lord of the Rings DvD and be an observer to Aragorn's coronation.
Because I understand that everyone else has a different computer (could be better or worse than mine), different distractions (work, kids, lousy internet connection - the list is endless), and varying degrees of passion for a game, such things as PvP kills or "who's ahead" in the online world have little meaning to me. I'm not there to compete, I'm there to be entertained and play the "role" of the hero.
What matters to me is, am I being entertained in the best way possible for the venue? Because computer games are interactive, I then expect to be the hero of the scene, not some mere observer or helper. That is the "role" I am seeking. Other players exist merely as people to communicate and socialize with, not as competitors or foes. I don't care what some loser in upstate NY with no job thinks of me or my character - I care what the NPCs of the realm think and how my exploits for their well-being are rewarded.
RPG, hmm. Any game where I'm moving the character around, I consider to be role playing. It can be a kind of escape from the real world around us, or it can be a way to socialize and play together online with friends who have similar interests (one of which being that you both chose the same game to play!)
Sometimes, the people introduce drama. Not cool! This happens when people confuse the fact that real life is also role playing, but should not be messily confused with playing in the game. The real human should always be real-life playing a polite and friendly human who is controling an avatar that can be brutal in PVP, but helpful in sharing cool dungeon drops with guildmates. And they should always keep in mind the 'G'. These are GAMES! I play hours and hours in World of Warcraft with dozens of 'toons' (short for cartoons, that I use in place of the term avatar). I've played it for years (since BC i.e. Burning Crusade). Before WoW, I played in Second Life (technically a MUVE), Last Chaos, Runescape, Perfect World, Aion, and Rift. I tried out Aion and RIft when they came out, but I still prefer WoW for the game. The world, music, quests, dungeons, bosses, pvp areas, auction house, professions, and the story lines (that some people complain are absent because they never looked for them.) World of Warcraft, I have firmly decided, will be my "last PC game ever."
Some people play AS their toons, and some people play WITH their toons. I am the latter. Most of the other players don't understand why I play, since I don't like PvP and actively avoid it. I also don't like dungeons and have to be reluctantly persuaded into them by online friends. ALL of my toons do gathering and crafting professions and MAKE stuff! Engineering, tailoring, enchantments, inscription, blacksmithing, leatherworking, alchemy - I have ALL the professions on at least one or more of my toons. Role playing? My Mages are my "transportation specialists" using Portals to move friends or my alts on my other WoW account. ALL my toons are playing some 'role' in the game, whether or not they are interacting with other players.
I haven't yet read all the other posts in this thread, but has anyone else mentioned gender crossing with their avatars? But actually, that should be an entirely separate discussion thread and no doubt already is, somewhere. I just had to toss in MMORPG = Many Men Online Role Playing Girls. and also G.I.R.L. = Guy In Real Life.
Personally, I make almost all female toons because I like looking at them. In WoW, the male humans all seem to be clones of Arthus. I do have preferences though. It's too bad the in-game human females don't look like the newest model on the Blizzard pages, but I guess they are more 'realistic' the way they are. Elve's ears are way too long. Could they be made adjustable the way Dranei horns are? Draenei are my favorites. I usually set the interface to hide the cloak and helmet. Watching the under-20 Dranei jogging along is rather hypnotic. On 60+ toons, hop on your gryphon, or Winged Guardian and simply go flying around the various areas with music and ambience sounds turned up. Oh yeah, this is DEFINITELY role playing. Someday, my mage with alchemy hopes to create the Vial of Sands and learn how to turn into a passenger-carrying flying Dragon. And THAT will be some awesome role-playing.
Erasmus said it in 1511 (well before Shakespeare) - “Now what else is the whole life of mortals, but a sort of comedy in which the various actors, disguised by various costumes and masks, walk on and play each ones part until the manager walks them off the stage?"
Agreed! MMORPG's should be designed to encourage player interactions, and 'one character can do all' is still not possible (or even desirable!) in WoW. Sure, Deathknights, Hunters, Warlocks, and Mages with their ghouls, beasts, minions, and elementals can use those battle pets to sort of 'tank' for their character while they do the DPS in dungeons perhaps lower than their present level, but the Professions are another story! WoW's limitation of 2 main professions is perfect for inspiring players to create alts. An Engineer SHOULD have Mining, and so should a Blacksmith or Jeweler. An Inscriptionist or Alchemist SHOULD have Herbalism. And I discovered it might be handy for a Tailor to have Skinning, since they need leather to make boots. A Leatherworker obviously needs Skinning. But even with carefully chosen professions, the toons STILL help each other out, as the Blacksmith makes everybody's weapons, the Engineer makes their goggles, the Jeweler makes their trinkets and rings and gemstones. The Tailor, Leatherworker, and Blacksmith make everyone's Cloth, Leather, or Mail and Plate Armor. The Enchanter creates buffs for the armor and weapons. The Inscriptionist makes Glyphs for everyone, relics for whoever can use those, and ALSO "Enchanting Vellum" which the Enchanter can use to make portable or sellable buffs for armor and weapons that may be Soulbound. It's all teamwork! Even if, like me, you prefer to make a half dozen characters to do each combination of these professions for yourself on days when your guildmates don't happen to be online. Also, collecting is more effective if toons share the tasks. Any of my toons who get leftover armor drops that they can't use, send them on to my Enchanter to be disenchanted and decomposed into the many magic powders needed to create enchantments with. All the fabric that drops in dungeons gets sent to my Tailor after everyone else levels up their First Aid, making their own bandages. All the too-low-to-level raw fish my toons catch while doing the fishing dailies, get sent along to my lower toons who can still level up cooking with the freely caught fish. I have whole private guild vaults filled with mats shared between my toons. One character do it all? Where on earth would one character store enough mats to do all the professions! Jeepers! My scribe uses an entire page in the guild vault just for all the bottles of Inks! LOL! As I've said before, World of Warcraft will be my last game. For me, all the others pale by comparison. And to all the two-month old level 90's who never even tried professions - If you're in such a hurry to "finish" the game, why did you bother starting? Advice to anyone considering starting professions - do a little research first. It'll maybe save you grief in the end. You don't want to Get your Deathknight to 90 and Archaeology all the way up, only to discover you will NOT find the recipe for Vial of Sands or be able to use it unless you're a Mage with the high enough level Alchemy to use the recipe. No passenger carrying, flying dragon shape-shifting for you! Ouch! Plan ahead for the really cool things so you stand a chance of getting them.
Blacksmiths with Herbalism and Alchemists with Mining? Oh well, at least it will force THOSE two to trade mats with each other! lol!
p.s. - In WoW, when logging out, park your alts in Safe Zones (major cities) or in Inns so their face icon shows 'zzz' instead of their level. While they are in the safe zone and logged out, they accumulate "rest points" that will double XP gains when next logged in. That's why it's good to HAVE alts and let each toon rest in rest area during down time. The next time you play that rested character, XP points will rise much faster! Your XP bar in WoW will be Blue if you're still rested and gaining bonus points, and when it shifts to Purple, you've used up the rested bonus and should switch to another alt for a whlie. Most people know this, but not everyone and it really does help.
p.p.s. - All these professions are the 'roles' my toons or alts (I use synonymously) play in World of Warcraft. If my discussion of the professions in WoW help some new players, so much the better. The more familar "roles" might be when people join a 'party' to "run a dungeon" and need to collect players so they have someone for the role of Tank to take a beating and hold the boss monster's attention, while the DPSers (damage dealers) actually kill it, and while the "Healer" stands by healing whoever's health is dropping or whoever's most critical to the effort. Letting the tank die almost always ensures the rest of the party dies, so the healer needs to stay alert. Please be nice to the healer - it is often a thankless task and most people seem to want to be damage dealers or tanks because those characters are "tough", but please don't discourage the healers by badmouthing an occasional dungeon fail, or the next time they won't be there to help and you will all JUST DIE. If I saw a healer simply withdraw from a party after someone badmouths them, I'd say they were perfectly justified. Let the dead DPSer create a healer and see what thanks they don't get from ungrateful players. Or are they too chicken to run a dungeon wearing only cloth armor? Remember folks - it's just a game and you can always run a dungeon again the next day - but not if you upset all your friends until they abandon you for more courteous players. The goal is to HAVE FUN.
- I didn't mean to slight what Engineers contribute! They also make the two passenger Mekgineer's motorcycle. And one time in a dungeon, my Engineer successfully resurrected a very surprised dead healer on our team, by using the Goblin Jumper Cables. The Gnomish Army Knife can also sometimes be used for that by overloading its battery to rez someone. Of course, the Warlock can resurrect itself, provided they remembered to use a SoulStone within the last 15 minutes. My Warlock always tries to remember detail that just before engaging the final boss. It sure is handy to be able to pop back to life without help at least once, anyway. And besides cloth armor, the Tailors also make those incredibly huge bags that give you tons of slots for storing stuff!