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What are examples of non-repetitive gameplay?
Kelvrek
Member Posts: 86
I have read critical remarks in several game's forums about how the missions are repetitive. Maybe I've been playing MMOs and rpgs too long, but they all seem to have repetitive missions to me.
Examples of common missions:
Go kill/collect x numbers of y creature/items/glowies.
Go defeat this boss.
Clear out this mission area of enemies.
Find your way through this map full of enemies/traps/puzzles.
Talk to this person, then that person, then do one of the above missions.
The setting or story can be tweaked, but the basic missions are all about the same from Baldur's Gate (one of my first single-player rpgs) to STO (the most recently published MMO I've played).
I would like to know what other mission types are out there, or what game devs can do to keep games from feeling repetitive. Can a player avoid being burned out on a non-repetitive game? Is the complaint about repetition referring to missions specifically, or is it more aimed at the combat system/gameplay in general?
Comments
I do not think I have ever seen a non repetetive game. I have seen attempts to break up the repetition like in WoW to make missions that involve more than just killing mobs, such as using an RC car to do things.
The twist! Well, what I believe to be the twist in all of this - was that things used to take longer to do. The more people complained about that, the quicker and easier things became - the more often you were doing those things.
If you have an hour - and that is spent doing one quest - that takes too long.
If you have an hour - and that is spent doing ten quests - then it is repetitive.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
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This is a good question and I will try to answer it as I think it is, this may or may not be the real answer to this, but here goes..
If you put it like you say there are only repetitive gameplay, but..
It's all in the matter of the context we are playing, in Baldurs Gate we had reasons and a great mood and setting to do the things we did..
We really wanted to see what happened in the overall story etc..
Also you had interessting companions wich also shared their stories with you, some annoying and some very interessting..
In MMORPG the story almost never feels this way, because of several reasons..
You are NOT alone to save this and that characther from their dilemmas , quests and tasks is more like a must to reach the endgame, whatever that is !! And often there isn't even an endgame.
Players look for hints regarding locations and spoilers how and where to go..
Quests just isn't that interessting...Same goes here you will meet companions , often they are your friends , maybe even your neighbour , and put it how you like this is where the feeling for the gameworld or overall story fails because it crosses borders with the REAL WORLD..
So..The problems a developer face when creating a MMO is to be able to make it as interessting as Baldurs Gate but yet keep the mood and immersiveness from Baldurs Gate or Dragon Age etc etc this is something that almost is impossible in a MMORPG envirioment..
Well..You figure it out..The quests may be simmular but the setting and the mood is diffrent, that is why a MMORPG never can be a true RPG or even a true CRPG, because of to much touch with the real world..
We will see how Bioware will succeed however, they will try to make a true CRPG of their Star Wars MMO The Old Repuplic..My guess is that unless you restrain yourself and play with only a handfull of people that you know are like yourself that MMO will end up just like the other MMO's with same sort of quests etc..ea If you skip all dialogue and just do it because you do etc etc..The feelings for a gameworld doesn't come by itself you need to make yourself like it, then and only then can a game become more than a couple of repeatable tasks ...
A good story helps... a lot.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Does it really?
Because last I checked there was a lot of story attached to the reasonings to why you you have to go out and do some mundane task, but nobody cared about it, as they just tend to get straight to the objective of "do this, do that".
How you push the story is important, and the only way people will absorb it is through scripted events. The only time people will pay attention to text is if there are chat bubbles and animations to help the scene along. Take DDO for instance, there is a game where every single dungeon has a good story, and some of it unfolds while in it, but the primer for is is still text off an NPC - which gets rushed through just so you can get into it quicker.
If you really want story to permeate the heads of the impatient, you have to *force* them to sit through something. If you can rapidly click to pass by the story they want you to read, then most people are going to. Voice-overs help, at least in my case. When I played AoC I sat through all the VO quest dialog, though a lot of people around me were still unfazed by it, and just ran through it as fast as possible so they could get right to killing rats.
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No gameplay activity is repetitive until it's repeated.
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Because last I checked there was a lot of story attached to the reasonings to why you you have to go out and do some mundane task, but nobody cared about it, as they just tend to get straight to the objective of "do this, do that".
How you push the story is important, and the only way people will absorb it is through scripted events. The only time people will pay attention to text is if there are chat bubbles and animations to help the scene along. Take DDO for instance, there is a game where every single dungeon has a good story, and some of it unfolds while in it, but the primer for is is still text off an NPC - which gets rushed through just so you can get into it quicker.
If you really want story to permeate the heads of the impatient, you have to *force* them to sit through something. If you can rapidly click to pass by the story they want you to read, then most people are going to. Voice-overs help, at least in my case. When I played AoC I sat through all the VO quest dialog, though a lot of people around me were still unfazed by it, and just ran through it as fast as possible so they could get right to killing rats.
This is true !! and maybe the shorter answer to all i said above..
As I said let's hope Bioware can make it that interessting so that less players skips their quest dialogues..
That is the only way to do it, I think, because there would be an uproar if you forced it on the players, atleast from alot of players nowadays
Make it fun and intriguing, the only way, I guess !!
/junker
Thank you all for the responses. I think VirusDancer hit on something with the length of quests. I suppose something would seem less repetitive if you had a longer period of time before doing it again; ie doing the task less often.
Perhaps devs should be shooting for that sweet spot where quests take long enough to keep from seeming repetitive, yet short enough to keep players involved (assuming that most players have short attention spans these days). If players are simply asking to do quests faster to increase levelling speed, then perhaps rewards could be increased. Instead of having players do the quests over and over, they could do longer, more intricate quests with greater rewards.
As far as forcing players to sit through story content, that will probably not happen. I usually read the text the first time or two through a storyline, but I don't want to do it for all of my alts. Players who skip story from the start only punish themselves.
I think there is not such a gameplay that is non-repetetive.
But some are repetetive and boring while others are repetetive and fun/motivating.
I think i played AoC-Tortage a dozen times only for it was a fun to go thru the Story with different key-quests for the different classes and free tortage and for the first time in my mmo career really free a town and enjoy the atmosphere etc while it was highly repetetive after the 3rd time i does so but it was still fun and motivating.
The real quest for the MMO-Designers ist to motivate their players and give them fun and that for all the different kind of players...man that is the hardest quest of all in any mmo!
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This is actually one of my favorite questions of all time!!
This dillema plagues not only the mmo gamer, but all humans, throughout all time.
To understand the answer, you have to first understand the difference between good and bad repetition. There are 4 types of repetition, 2 are good, and 2 are bad.
There is Static repetition and Record Skipping repetition, those are bad.
There is Rythmic repetition and Dejavu repetition, those are good.
Static repetition is like Rage Against the Machine... "and now you do what they told you" repeated like 40 times is basically one of his songs. The reason some people like that song is because of the extreme contrast the actual couple of seconds that aren't him saying that over and over cause them to pay attention to what he is saying very acutely, and they like what he is saying.
Record Skipping is what we see in most mmos. You go through a fairly complicated action that abruptly ends, then start the same fairly complicated action which abruptly ends the same way, potentially infinitely.
Please note that labeling these as "bad" does not equate to them being useless. It mearly means that an OVERDOSE of them is painful and even harmful, as with an overdose of any type of toxin. Small amounts give you a buzz. Small amounts.
Rythmic repetition is like Super Mario Bros music. The original NES Super Mario Bros.
And finally Dejavu repetition is like Edgar Allen Poe. I suggest you read The Raven, and have a dictionary handy, if you didn't do so in highschool.
Keep in mind, also, that large amounts of continuous good repetition can put you to sleep. I guarantee that if you were to find an mmo that sucessfully immersed you into it's world through good repetition, you would keep playing until you fell asleep at the keyboard. You may have even already done this in your life. That was because you experienced an overdose of good repetition. I bet you had some epic dreams!
The truth is that whether people realize it or not, they do not dislike repetition, they dislike bad repetition. They in fact, LOVE repetition- good repetition.
For gameplay to "not be repetitive" it has to be either Rythmic repetition or Dejavu repetition. Zelda series' storylines are Dejavu repetition, and their gameplay is Rythmic and Dejavu.
Super Smash Bros is Rythmic.
All FPS games are Rythmic.
The "rotations" for all mmos are Rythmic.
The reason why pop culture refrences inside an mmo are liked is actually because they are Dejavu repetition.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to not be repetitive, in a game.
Reguardless, we DON'T want to be completely non repetitive. I know this for a fact because I tried it in real life.
Think about your real life for a minute. You go to work every weekday. You have a schedule, whether it's on paper or not. The things that deviate from it seem fun, not because they are "non repetitive" but because they are Dejavu repetition spliced into your regular mix of Rythmic repetition.
Rythmic repetition is the easiest type of good repetition to make.
If you play mmos with the music off, turn it on, but turn it down, and turn the sound effects off instead. keep the ambience maxed. You will like it more. Play with headphones over no sound, if noise is an issue.
Why? The music (all good music) is Rythmic repetition, and the ambience is Dejavu repetition, whereas the sound effects are Static repetition, Record Skipping repetition, or both (usually both). Some music also has Dejavu repetition, but all good music is at least Rythmically repetitive.
What people are calling out for, are quests with Dejavu repetition in the ACTIONS required to perform the quest.
Most people call it "creativity."
I have to hand it to VirusDancer and SmilingBob for 2 great post there.. I agree with both.. I equate what they say to golf.. Playing 18 holes of golf at the same course over and over, knowing I'm going to shoot a 73 each time is boring.. Playing that round of golf in 2 hours is too fast, but taking all day is too slow.. Why do I enjoy golf so much (considering that swing is nothing but repetition) is because the outcome is never the same.. I can handle repetition as long as the results are not 99% predictable.. It's why none of use play tic tac toe anymore..
All mmo game play is repetitive. What makes it fun is having interesting friends to play with and trying various group combinations. For example, in EQ1 I had a group that was nothing but mages. It was risky but everthing died insanely fast. Also, PvP is always unpredictable and fun.
Myst is an example of non-repetitive gameplay. It's not a MMO though, in fact it's not even an RPG but an adventure. Its key element to non-repetitive gameplay is the 100% *handcrafted* content, which could be done for an RPG as well and even for a MMORPG. The problem is that it's much more expensive to create such content, than, to put it simple, copy-pasting things around with some minimal changes.
The original idea that attracted developers into MMO market was exactly that: The cheap cost of production that comes with procedurally assisted content combined with the lack of software piracy that comes with online and the possibility to charge for a service.
"Traditionally, massively multiplier online games have been about three basic gameplay pillars combat, exploration and character progression. In Alganon, in addition to these we've added the fourth pillar to the equation: Copy & Paste."
This post
Level cap at 80 for GW2
Basically mentions the use of "filler" content in between "wow" moments.
As to finding the balance between repetition and change, that's the devs problem!
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
It does. I didn't use to think so, but Bioware has made me a believer. Until Mass Effect 2, I can honestly say I have NEVER played a game through a 2nd time. Following that. Dragon Age convinced me that Bioware has what it takes.
As for the topic...PvP is the best non-repetative system IMO. The "go here, kill X# of Y's" is an industry favorite, but there are tons of other good designs out there that don't involve killing crap. IMO, one of the problems with MMOs is that the focus is on 'levels' and leveling...which makes for boring gameplay. "Skills" pwn levels.
Example of non repetitive gameplay: Allodds Online
You play once, uninstall, shift+delete.
Life is repetitive, MMO life is no different. 'The grind' is an expression which meant working in RL, you cannot escape work in a society, nor can you in an online one.
Randomisation is the key but it does not fix the problem totally.
Sure you can - It's called "Government Assistance" and it's far too common these days.
The core of RPG type games is you start weak and gradually become stronger through performing certain tasks and if you don't want a game that is over in 2 hours that means a lot of repetition. I think the difference between a grindy RPG and a non-grindy RPG is in how well the grind has been disguised. There is no real difference between killing 20 rats and an NPC giving you a quest to kill 20 rats but for some reason it feels a bit different. It doesn't feel much different sometimes depending on how well it's implemented but i think this problem is mostly an issue of using psychology to disguise repetition more than actually being non-repetitive.
There's another aspect to this which in my case means there has to be a good crafting system in the game. Even if the mob-fighting part of the game is well done i will always get bored of it from time to time. It's not so much that i like crafting it's that when i'm bored fighting mobs i need there to be something different to do for a while and i like game crafting enough for it to provide that second something. Other players might have a different "second something" than me like arena PvP for example or guild drama but i think a lot of players need some kind of second something for those times when they're bored killing mobs.
I think the bigger problem isn't the archetypical types of quests, but the way they are presented... For instance, you're asked to slay a few undead. Alright. What do you do? You go to the spot on the map where the undead are just wondering aimlessly around waiting to be killed, kill them until you've killed X, and then go back.
Now, let's shake it up a bit. Let's say, you need to kill X undead. Thing is, nobody knows precisely where they reside. First thing's first, you need to locate them. Let's ask around town, let's ask other players. Alright, looks like the undead have been spotted on the other side of the shadowy forest. But what's in the forest? Could be anything. Could be another quest, or maybe other players waiting to kill you.
Now you've gotten through the forest, and you come across a dark meadow filled with fog. "Funny," Says the Cleric who decided to party up with you, "This fog wasn't here before when I came through."
As it turns out, the fog only appears at night in the full moon, and with it comes a large, decrepit spiral tower. What's inside the tower? A mad necromancer hellbent on destroying the village that cast him out for practicing the dark arts of course!
See? Things can be much more interesting if the quest gravitated toward more than just, go here, kill, go back.
These seemingly boring archetypes can be rather engaging if done in a different way or seen from a different perspective.
Then the plot thickens, maybe the Necromancer is just misunderstood. You can either kill him, or take his quest to go back to town and slay the mayor who forced his exile.
The list goes on.
sports to an observer look repetitive. But in essence they're actually not due to the sheer exhaustive possibilities, and variances of skill. The problem with some mmos is when you have a flat-line ability versus a flat-line mob, you negate opportunity of real sustained interest in it. However, PvP at least, breaks outside of that with with the unpredictability of the opposing player, and teammates.
‘Government Assistance’ or being on the dole is actually F2P. You don’t pay anything, you contribute nothing and rely on the few idiot taxpayers who do pay for the game to crank on.
I don't understand why the view of quests became so narrow in design. There are plenty of things that can make a quest non repetitive. The biggest factor should be involvement of other players and no I am NOT talking about " forced grouping". some ideas where this could be implemented:
1. You have one area that is a mining area where other players actually want to mine for needed resources. Well have another area not seen by that area where a player can manipulate the other area. You could have a giant crane attached to the ceiling picking up other players and dropping them into a pit they have to escape from in order to continue mining. While 1 player is doing the quest they would have to " place other players into a pit". as part of the quest. This adds to both areas of the game, at any time while mining you could be picked up and dropped into a pit, the other is part of the quest where you have to do this to move forward in the quest. You could do a great variety of things using this type set up, drop strings onto other players and force them to be a puppet for a short time , the options for that are really infinite.
2. introducing skills such as engineering into games would also be a good way to do things in quests such as having to build weapons of war and use them against other players that are also doing this in quests. having the player build things in game is another option. Building explosives and using them on others, the use of obstacles and items in game can be used in a great variety of ways.
3. Having to take care of an NPC, or escort them is a common one, but the challenge in this is keeping them alive instead of just focusing on yourself.
4. playing other games within the game- such as a carnival balloon dart game, poker, chess, and gambling also can break things up a bit and make them more challenging and entertaining.
Having to do other activities along the way, whether it winning a poker game, getting into a bar fight with other players, or betting on other players actions, there really are many activities that can be implmented into the games to remove the repitious feel of them. I know they just add the repetition due to the need to " fill the world" but it really isn;t that much content if it is all the same thing over and over again.
Says it all pretty much. PVE is much harder to make non-repetitive, its just too costly to program thousands of unique quests, though Bioware is supposed to be breaking the mold in this area with SWTOR.
We'll see.
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So far it looks to be the exact same thing we're all used to except it has dialogue and choices attached to it. Theyve already released quite of few gameplay clips of players doing the usual go here/kill this quest. There was one in G4TV I think playing a Sith Inquisitor where the objective was "go out and kill 10 Crazed Sith Officers" or something like that. There was also another that was just go here and kill this mob.
Im thinking the class story quests will be nice though. Like the "Kill the Captain" quest we've seen for over a year now.