Themepark and Camp exp

Jetrpg

So another thread got me thinkign about other things i have said on this site and i felt i had to make a thread just to address the issue of why Devs are so dense.

I see  a lot of hating on the "themepark" mmo (if you are one you will be called a wow clone) but what is wrong with the themepark? It provides exp, solo friendly content, lore/ story line/ plot, equip, and direction.

The old camp/ explore and mass murder with a group, didn't meet these needs of many players and good games. But what they did do is provide community, more social interaction (thast right old games were more socially friendly than the new ones), challenge (fight a larger / higher camp your rewards would be too, if you didn't die a lot).

I feel this is what so many people miss about these old games , risk reward, social exping, team work, an open world to explore and find good camps.

So what do we do now that we have had great camp daoc/EQ games and great themepark games WoW, etc.?

I persoanlly feel the themepark mmo is needed, but i also think mmo devs need to WAKE UP and STOP being AWFUL. Understand you can have the themepark and the old style explore and murder style exping systems in the VERY same game.

Its quite easy. See themepark doesn't work well grouped. Explore and  murder/ camp exp does. So larger group bonuses to exp or divide the exp by .5 for each member not 1in groups will make grouping and killing higher level mob camps worth exping on. This allows solo and group game play (leveling) to co-exist.

The group would have less insentive in the first place (its harder to get 6-8 people together, than talk to an npc) so a few things should be addressed in games like this, mobs should drop equip their level not below their level.. allowing those who are grinding exp to get higher level equip. This should be offset but equal or a tad lower than equal level equip from normal themepark missions. Thus grindign exp gives better equip but only by a few item levels.

Think about it ... its not hard you just have to make group exp worth while ($$, exp, items) at a rate = or slightly greater than themepark exp. In doing this people on for a limited amount of time or just wanna solo are going to themepark it up, those lookign for the best exp/hr or have a few friends they want to play with are going to camp it up.

Now another thing that will help this system is an group level/delevel for people low or high. But i don't like these, instead i feel that a set code for "feeding" lower level people and "starving" higher level people in groups should be used. Now some people may say this will allow power level , well if you want you can put hard caps on it. But the point is that if you have a group of friends a lower level (not super lower, and a higher level not super higher) can group together and the lower level person will help be caught up, a soild why to do this is with the exp caps from per kill mob exp should be rather high. This allows the lower elvel person get more levels but  close to the same amount of exp , were as the higher level person is going to get very few levels but the same amount of exp. Now i could go into the math and tell more about how simple it is to make a this solid, but the point is some TIME SHOULD BE SPENT ON IT. Not just ok we have idea.. is it working ok good, we think thats good. MAKE IT GREAT, its easy and doesn't take too much time.

Sure its not shiny, so i guess that makes most dev teams forget about it.

But maybe i am beign a tad hard. It looks like GW2 is trying to make levels flat non progressive exp rates, so at least they are thinking about this. Alos its ff14 or terra that is not penelizing grousp at all on exp (ie everyone gets full exp for mobs kills reguardless of number of group members, THIS MAKES GAMES SOCIAL AND GROUP PLAY GAMES, PEOPLE WILL GROUP ALL DAY LONG IN SUCH GAMES).

Well my 4 cents (would have been 2 but its quite long and i do tend to drone on.)

Amaranthar

The real problem with "themepark" is that it's built around a level grind. Really, you could put thempark into a sandbox game, with the quests and what not, to guide players from one point to another. That would only make a sandbox game better for players who want such things. But there's an issue here in removing the items and level dings, which are the real problem, because removing those make the themepark style much less attractive by taking out reward for playing that way.

Again, the real problem is the level grind, including items. You have this power gap that increases on and on. That means you have to start zoning content out for level groups. Once you start doing that, you have to go the way current games have gone. This breaks social game play, trades, PvP, having a "home" territory, because of the division of the players. It forces the game in question to do just what they have done. Zones, instances, battle ground zones, quests by level, etc.

In a nutshell, "themepark" can be added to another game type than "level grind", but it would really be a series of quests just to "show me" the world. I'd rather see development resources spent on making the skills, social, trade, exploration, and building aspects of the world work. Let players go out and explore the world on their own. Who needs themepark hand holding?

twstdstrange

Like Amaranthar said... Grind.

Just saying that makes me cringe.

A good portion of folks don't like it, myself included.

It just seems like a long list of repetetive trials in order to obtain some kind of means, which will just be replaced sometime down the line by something else.

Of course, there are those who enjoy the grind. Makes them feel productive, I guess.

To each his own.

Snaylor47

The "grind" is even worse in sandbox mmos, only sandbox mmorpgers just don't want to admit it.

 

I spent a year and a half in Runescape to get all of my states above lvl 60(Most skills are above 70), and get a fishing lvl of 99, however it only took me 3 months to get to 80 in WoW.

Gabby-air

Originally posted by Snaylor47

The "grind" is even worse in sandbox mmos, only sandbox mmorpgers just don't want to admit it.

 

I spent a year and a half in Runescape to get all of my states above lvl 60(Most skills are above 70), and get a fishing lvl of 99, however it only took me 3 months to get to 80 in WoW.

In wow you must do quests/dungeons aka kill to level and there is no other way, in runescape out of the 20+ skills i believe only five are actual combat skills? Also in runescape a lvl 3 could be a lot more successful than a lvl 100 as he could have every crafting skill maxed with a billion in his bank. Sandbox games don't require you to grind, you do somethign because you want not because your forced into doing it.

Jetrpg

Originally posted by twstdstrange

Like Amaranthar said... Grind.

Just saying that makes me cringe.

A good portion of folks don't like it, myself included.

It just seems like a long list of repetetive trials in order to obtain some kind of means, which will just be replaced sometime down the line by something else.

Of course, there are those who enjoy the grind. Makes them feel productive, I guess.

To each his own.

A little while back the mmo community went through a discussion on what grind is.

ATM no matter what you grind. Grind quest, camps, etc. pvp So really you have to go with the Grind that feels least grindy to you. Which is why a thempark , camp hybrid would work so well. Sick of camp grinds, go do some quest chains; sick of solo quest chains, go do some camp group grind.

Its about variety ... still the core mechainics of a game must be solid. 

Snaylor47

Originally posted by Gabby-air

Originally posted by Snaylor47

The "grind" is even worse in sandbox mmos, only sandbox mmorpgers just don't want to admit it.

 

I spent a year and a half in Runescape to get all of my states above lvl 60(Most skills are above 70), and get a fishing lvl of 99, however it only took me 3 months to get to 80 in WoW.

In wow you must do quests/dungeons aka kill to level and there is no other way, in runescape out of the 20+ skills i believe only five are actual combat skills? Also in runescape a lvl 3 could be a lot more successful than a lvl 100 as he could have every crafting skill maxed with a billion in his bank. Sandbox games don't require you to grind, you do somethign because you want not because your forced into doing it.

I have to disagree with you, in sandbox mmos you have to do something and when you do that something, lets say, mining in EvE, you have to grind in order to get anything worth while. MMOs are pretty much about the grind and it will always exist in some form.

 

In a nutshell you may not be force to do it, but in the end no matter what you do, you end up grinding.

Amaranthar

"The grind" is just a term, but the affects are what we are after, and what the game play is like.

Every game has "grind". We wouldn't want it any other way, would we? However, most games are centered around that grind as the only form of game play. These are what we call "themepark" games. What happens is that the entire game is built for that grinding leveling game play. So they make it "exciting" by making it worthwhile, big exciting dings of levels and items of power. This makes the game entirely about the ladder of leveling, done through the grind. And this is where it gets boring. Because the game must be built around that. With zones for the ever increasing power levels. With trades items and coin types ever increasing, and thus making that which you have passed on from completely useless to you at your new levels of power. With magic items doing the same, becoming useless as you move on to "bigger and better" things. And in the end, there must be an end, we call it "end game", where the game no longer has anywhere to go. Game over, at least until they add new content of the same variety, increasing even more in power and ability, and some new raids, and leading once again to "end game".

Really, I'm not sure what the OP is getting at. It sounds like existing games. Maybe not all, I don't know. Regardless, it sounds like the exact same game play with a little tuning maybe.

What MMORPGs need is a new way of playing them. Get away from this grind style. Most of us are tired of that because it's boring and meaningless. What we need are worlds that evolve, that don't center play around this grind of levels, that center play around the world instead. Yes, we'd still want grind, but with much less power gap between levels so that the world is one world, not a bunch of zones. Where AI is a big factor, and MOBs move and make stakes in the world that we share with them. Where evil works in the background with goals and plans. Where daily game play is centered around making our own stake in this one world, whether through grind or through economic enrichment or through knowledge of the world and the things in it. Where exploration is more than visual, and we can actually discover things. Where we can build and tear down, and protect what we build.

Jetrpg

Originally posted by Amaranthar

...

Really, I'm not sure what the OP is getting at. It sounds like existing games. Maybe not all, I don't know. Regardless, it sounds like the exact same game play with a little tuning maybe.

...

Your right about most games having grind, your wrong about most games having camps. Wow has almost no (id say 0 but there are crazys and bots out there) camp exp ability. Most themepark mmos don't have camp exping. Look back of daoc, eq , at one point SWG. That type of leveling was tottaly different, while it still had the same mechanics of leveling up and gettign better equips. While its pretty much impossible to camp in wow, is no camp and support it (too slow repawn, too little mobs, and too weak mobs)  Also hitting a red/purp mob is all but pointless (in camp exp its harder to hit them but not that bad). Even then rarely is the exp gain from them that much, so its better tot mass slaughter littler mobs, or better yet just quest.

Games need the ability to use camps and gridn them for exp as well as a quest line. Oddly enough WAR may have had this (other than the lack of items drops and the awful gameplay, and once agian the lack of these outside of PQs).

Amaranthar

Originally posted by Jetrpg

Originally posted by Amaranthar

...

Really, I'm not sure what the OP is getting at. It sounds like existing games. Maybe not all, I don't know. Regardless, it sounds like the exact same game play with a little tuning maybe.

...

Your right about most games having grind, your wrong about most games having camps. Wow has almost no (id say 0 but there are crazys and bots out there) camp exp ability. Most themepark mmos don't have camp exping. Look back of daoc, eq , at one point SWG. That type of leveling was tottaly different, while it still had the same mechanics of leveling up and gettign better equips. While its pretty much impossible to camp in wow, is no camp and support it (too slow repawn, too little mobs, and too weak mobs)  Also hitting a red/purp mob is all but pointless (in camp exp its harder to hit them but not that bad). Even then rarely is the exp gain from them that much, so its better tot mass slaughter littler mobs, or better yet just quest.

Games need the ability to use camps and gridn them for exp as well as a quest line. Oddly enough WAR may have had this (other than the lack of items drops and the awful gameplay, and once agian the lack of these outside of PQs).

Ahh, I see what the point is now. WoW does have camps in the form of dungeons, but the point is that they are useless without a quest to drive XP and gear. Correct? I have to agree with that, but I'd go farther and say that camps by level zones is also bad. There were several camps in DAoC that I would have loved to be able to go back to time and again, pick a flavor from them all and go. But they become useless by leveling so it just didn't work for me. Another reason why I like the sandbox ideal.

Kyleran

Originally posted by Snaylor47

The "grind" is even worse in sandbox mmos, only sandbox mmorpgers just don't want to admit it.

 

I spent a year and a half in Runescape to get all of my states above lvl 60(Most skills are above 70), and get a fishing lvl of 99, however it only took me 3 months to get to 80 in WoW.

Or you could play a sandbox game like EVE with absolutely no grind at all.  (well, outside of grinding for ISK)

But you aren't suppoesed to view working on character advancement as some sort of distasteful chore to be rushed through as quickly as possible, you are supposed to be enjoying the journey along the way. 

Understandable though that games like WOW have reduced the 1st 80 levels to a tutorial now, before players get to the "real" game.

laokoko

Aion actually have some camp grinding group.  But it's only at certain level.  At certain level for some class it became better to form a group of 3-4 and grind at elite camp.

Jetrpg

Originally posted by Amaranthar

Originally posted by Jetrpg

Originally posted by Amaranthar

...

Really, I'm not sure what the OP is getting at. It sounds like existing games. Maybe not all, I don't know. Regardless, it sounds like the exact same game play with a little tuning maybe.

...

Your right about most games having grind, your wrong about most games having camps. Wow has almost no (id say 0 but there are crazys and bots out there) camp exp ability. Most themepark mmos don't have camp exping. Look back of daoc, eq , at one point SWG. That type of leveling was tottaly different, while it still had the same mechanics of leveling up and gettign better equips. While its pretty much impossible to camp in wow, is no camp and support it (too slow repawn, too little mobs, and too weak mobs)  Also hitting a red/purp mob is all but pointless (in camp exp its harder to hit them but not that bad). Even then rarely is the exp gain from them that much, so its better tot mass slaughter littler mobs, or better yet just quest.

Games need the ability to use camps and gridn them for exp as well as a quest line. Oddly enough WAR may have had this (other than the lack of items drops and the awful gameplay, and once agian the lack of these outside of PQs).

Ahh, I see what the point is now. WoW does have camps in the form of dungeons, but the point is that they are useless without a quest to drive XP and gear. Correct? I have to agree with that, but I'd go farther and say that camps by level zones is also bad. There were several camps in DAoC that I would have loved to be able to go back to time and again, pick a flavor from them all and go. But they become useless by leveling so it just didn't work for me. Another reason why I like the sandbox ideal.

This was part of it when a camp becaem low level, you had to FIND a new one, which was part of the explore.

Jetrpg

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Snaylor47

The "grind" is even worse in sandbox mmos, only sandbox mmorpgers just don't want to admit it.

 

I spent a year and a half in Runescape to get all of my states above lvl 60(Most skills are above 70), and get a fishing lvl of 99, however it only took me 3 months to get to 80 in WoW.

Or you could play a sandbox game like EVE with absolutely no grind at all.  (well, outside of grinding for ISK)

But you aren't suppoesed to view working on character advancement as some sort of distasteful chore to be rushed through as quickly as possible, you are supposed to be enjoying the journey along the way. 

Understandable though that games like WOW have reduced the 1st 80 levels to a tutorial now, before players get to the "real" game.

Eves comabt is just bad (my opinion, but i mean i click a few buttons wait ............ click one or two  wait...... repeat), but achivement in eve comes with your monthly sub and just afk ,YOU LITERALLY DO NOTHING but bait for character skill development.  Im not saying this is bad, only that i don't feel its superior for an RPG.

I do agree it suppost to be fun, waiting 4 months to learn the skills to fly the ship you want to doesn't seem "fun" to me. But i don't really disagree with you only to say you have to agree to reach "max" or somethign close to it takes much longer in eve then wow and other non sandbox games.