I love how on this site( and many others) say " They should just do it right!!!" which always in gaming , movies and comics translate to " They should just do it like I want !!!"
Which i guess on forums is fine but you should just come out and say that. Gamming is subjective. There is no " do it right" whats right for one person is stupid to another Bioware never promised any sim combat they just said space combat no more no less.
Now weither whatever they attempt is done "right" ( right = solid" ) is yet to be seen but if your sitting around waiting on someone to make your game just how you want you might as well quit gaming cause its not gonna happen..ever.
I challenged my reflection to a staring contest....4 days later i won
I love how on this site( and many others) say " They should just do it right!!!" which always in gaming , movies and comics translate to " They should just do it like I want !!!"
Which i guess on forums is fine but you should just come out and say that. Gamming is subjective. There is no " do it right" whats right for one person is stupid to another Bioware never promised any sim combat they just said space combat no more no less.
Now weither whatever they attempt is done "right" ( right = solid" ) is yet to be seen but if your sitting around waiting on someone to make your game just how you want you might as well quit gaming cause its not gonna happen..ever.
Of course you're going to find that here, we're all posting out of self interest. Some of us don't care, some do, some have other motivations to be speaking out on this. That's what we do, why? Who knows, most likely boredom I suppose.
Don't put to much care into what anyone says, most who are speaking out now will most likely play the game anyway at some point. That's another thing we do, even if at times we probably shouldn't.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by baphamet are you fans of bioware games? did you even play the original KOTOR or mass effect games? if so, did you like them? i can certainly understand wanting to play a star wars mmo with extensive space combat. what i don't understand is why any of you expected it from bioware, considering they never did it in the original KOTOR game? many consider that one of the best RPG's of all time, certainly one of the best starwars games in my opinion.....all without space combat, go figure!
I've been a fan of Bioware since Baldur's Gate. But even so, I felt from the get-go that they wouldn't do the IP justice, at least not from my perspective. I'm an old-timer, but I wasn't in 1977 when Star Wars was released. The first trilogy made a huge impression on me and I have a very defined sense of exactly what the idea of Star Wars means. It's not a concept that I share with many, but I'm willing to guess that those with whom I do have it in common also tend to be on the older end of the scale. That being said, I only feel compelled to comment since the concept of space combat they are introducing is so ludicrous, that it invites derision. Truly, they would be better to go without than to include something so ridiculous. The whole on-rails thing is counter to the concept of space combat that was introduced with Star Wars, again, in my opinion. I'm sure that they will be able to put together a fine game when it comes to various other aspects, but it seems idiotic to me to even bother with including what appears to amount to little more than sideshow gameplay. I don't really blame Bioware for not building a game that would live up to my expectations since I fully admit, my expectations are sky high. In fact, I don't see any developer out there who could pull it off. Even Lucas couldn't reproduce the magic when he created the second trilogy. But "on-rails"? Seriously? A developer with Bioware's pedigree should know better. I sincerely hope all of you who choose to play it, find it a good experience. It's just not for me -- not because of the space combat system, but because I'm confident it won't be able to live up to the experience of sitting down in front of the TV, making some popcorn, and watching the actual films again. The originals, by the way, not the remade blasphemies. Anyone who knows that Han actually shot first, knows exactly what I'm talking about.
i seen every star wars movie ever made in the theaters when it was released, so i see where you are coming from.
however, how did you like KOTOR at all considering it didn't have space content at all? this game was never going to have expensive space content just like none of their other games did.
IMO they only put the space combat in to add to the story and immersion, nothing more. at least with the space content they did implement, you know that there is a conflict going on in space and you are a part of it.
rather than the original KOTOR games where you just fly from planet to planet.i also disagree that they are better off going without any, it adds to the story and to immersion.
if you don't like that, hey that's cool.......but i just don't understand how any of you guys (who share your opinion) ever liked any of the KOTOR or ME games.
just don't understand how any of you guys (who share your opinion) ever liked any of the KOTOR or ME games.
several of us have directly answered this question for you. those were single-player games. one expects a totally different experience from an MMO - in which you spend 3-5 years - and a single-player game like ME in which you spend 1 week. Not that time spent is the only fact, in a single-player RPG, it's just a story and your part in that story. In an MMO, it's the creation of a world to live in and have different stories in.
I think all of us have played very successful MMOs that had no space gameplay and had no complaints about it. I've been playing EQ2 for the past 6 years and I never once complained that it really should have space gameplay of any kind. So we know an MMO without space gameplay CAN be built and be successful. We just don't think that a Star Wars world without space gameplay is a good representation of the IP.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
are you fans of bioware games? did you even play the original KOTOR or mass effect games? if so, did you like them?
i can certainly understand wanting to play a star wars mmo with extensive space combat. what i don't understand is why any of you expected it from bioware, considering they never did it in the original KOTOR game?
many consider that one of the best RPG's of all time, certainly one of the best starwars games in my opinion.....all without space combat, go figure!
In general I agree with you but the truth is some people who you will here bad mouth this idea have bad mouthed anything about the game whether it's because it is not SWG2 or not a sandbox or is a thempark mmo whatever the reason is lot's of folks have already been on the bashwagon and of course aren't going to stop now.
My question though is how is this a bad thing? When SWG launched we knew there would be not even a hint of sniff of space combat/travel at all just that we would possibly get an expansion down the road and that didn't create an uproar so why would the inclusion of a limited flight component at launch cause such an uproar now. I've read the sentiment about how SWG has JTL but as I've mentioned and anyone there knows that was an expansion that took about a year before we saw it it wasn't in at launch.
Ultimately I would like to see TOR with a fully fleshed out space system but think it needs to be way better than JTL was which for the sake of the argument people are trying to make against TOR has been getting quite a boost in reputation, flight works well in JTL but it is not really a fun component as I've heard so many claim, the missions run on and on forever and are about as engaging as questing in STO is.
Either way it goes whether you like the game as a fan of mmo's, Bioware, or Star Wars the negativity and debating sprouting up around this topic is pointless and imo without merit though I'm sure we'll have this conversation up until launch and beyond.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Originally posted by arieste Originally posted by baphametjust don't understand how any of you guys (who share your opinion) ever liked any of the KOTOR or ME games.
several of us have directly answered this question for you. those were single-player games. one expects a totally different experience from an MMO - in which you spend 3-5 years - and a single-player game like ME in which you spend 1 week. Not that time spent is the only fact, in a single-player RPG, it's just a story and your part in that story. In an MMO, it's the creation of a world to live in and have different stories in. I think all of us have played very successful MMOs that had no space gameplay and had no complaints about it. I've been playing EQ2 for the past 6 years and I never once complained that it really should have space gameplay of any kind. So we know an MMO without space gameplay CAN be built and be successful. We just don't think that a Star Wars world without space gameplay is a good representation of the IP.
that is a very biased and inaccurate answer though, simply because you are amusing that there will not be enough content in this game so it "needs" extensive space content.
also, the end of your post is telling.....if no space content isn't a "good representation" of the IP, then why was KOTOR so successful? because it was a single player game so it doesn't count?
as long as there is plenty of regular content i don't see any difference between a single player game and an mmo in terms of representing the IP.
it does not need extensive space content just like the other games didn't. some of you seem to think it does because that's what you want but the success of the single player KITOR games beg to differ.
^^^^ this! I am worried that bioware is going to be forced to work on this, and then every major facet of the core game will be cut short and/or ruined because of the narrow-sighted whiners who can't see one expansion pack into the future... yeah... we're gonna end up with rogue squadron 4 instead of kotor 3
If they weren't going to put any real effort into this part of the game, they should have left it out until they could do so. Your insults are not necessary, but then again, some of these die-hard fans can't seem to do much more than stomp their feet and run away with their fingers in their ears.
Insults? Pfft! I was referencing the comments people made. They are narrow-sighted and whiny... very much so. I am just wondering how happy these people will be when we get Rogue Squadron 4 instead of a KOTOR type of game...
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are you fans of bioware games? did you even play the original KOTOR or mass effect games? if so, did you like them?
i can certainly understand wanting to play a star wars mmo with extensive space combat. what i don't understand is why any of you expected it from bioware, considering they never did it in the original KOTOR game?
many consider that one of the best RPG's of all time, certainly one of the best starwars games in my opinion.....all without space combat, go figure!
So you're saying we should expect their massive budget MMORPG to be like their SINGLE player game?
Well, all evidence so far says it'll be basically a single player "MMO", so I guess that's right, good point.
Im really looking forward to SW:TOR based on what is released about the groundgame. But I really dont like how they are planning to implement spacecombat.
Ive been thinking about this and to me it seems like a kneejerk decision from Bioware to add spacecombat in that state to release. When there was no talk yet about spacecombat being added, many ppl assumed there wouldnt be any. Which resulted in many threads on this website and SW:TOR's about how it was possible that a Star Wars game wont have spacecombat. So my guess is that they decided to add this as unfinished as it will be at launch.
How else could they decide to add it as a single player game for release? It really seems like a rash decision with damage control as goal.
i don't see any difference between a single player game and an mmo in terms of representing the IP.
And that's the problem. Mine or yoursi don't know. Maybe i'm just too old and grew up with MMOs that tried to create worlds rather than just short experiences. That was the main thing that made me play MMORPGs, that i could experience a different world. Not that I could run the exact same quest i do in a single-player game just with a chat room attached. That seems to be the trend today and the direction bioware is taking, just make a single-player game multiplayer. I'm sure it'll be a successful game.
But to me personally, it's not a good star wars mmorpg until it lets you experience the star wars world. I don't have the same expecations of single player games. For single-player RPGs, I expect developers to tell me a story and i'll go wherever they set that story. Anything beyond that is just bonus. In Mass Effect (which i LOVE) i never logged into the game and though "as an inhabitant of the ME universe, what do i want to do today? - it's never happened. I always log in and i'm commander shephard and i know the next part of the mission is to do X. or sometimes it's a choice between X & Y, but basically i'm contuing the story, i'm not living in the world.
In a MMORPG, i want to log in into the star wars universe and think about all the possibilities presented by this amazing IP and to have the opportunity to do many of the things I love about star wars. And while I accept that no game can have ALL possible star wars things to do, I believe having a ship and being able to go somewhere and smuggle something or get attacked are so critical to my experience of star wars, that without them, the experience is incomplete.
Again, maybe it's because i'm too much of geek, but I want to be like Han Solo, i want to be in that cantina, looking for customers or cargo for my ship, so i can make up the money i owe because of my failed smuggling run. And I want to have the choice of having dumped that cargo in the first place, and i want to outrun the empire and i want my smuggling reputation to be well-earned and i want to do the kessel run in record time... etc. etc... to me, these things are so intimately tied to the idea of star wars that a WORLD without them is not complete. A short game without them (like KOTOR) is just fine, especially a game in which i'm told that i'm person X, whose skills are Y and who is participating in the story Z. But the second it becomes about me making the choice of who i am, where i live and what i do - if it's set in star wars, then i'm getting on a ship.
And to be honest, I hated X-Wing and Tie-Fighter games, i'm terrible at them. But what can I sayexcept: "my star wars includes the stars". And while not all star wars games have to include both space and ground gameplay, an MMO definitely does.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
Originally posted by arieste Originally posted by baphamet i don't see any difference between a single player game and an mmo in terms of representing the IP.
And that's the problem. Mine or yoursi don't know. Maybe i'm just too old and grew up with MMOs that tried to create worlds rather than just short experiences. That was the main thing that made me play MMORPGs, that i could experience a different world. Not that I could run the exact same quest i do in a single-player game just with a chat room attached. That seems to be the trend today and the direction bioware is taking, just make a single-player game multiplayer. I'm sure it'll be a successful game.
But to me personally, it's not a good star wars mmorpg until it lets you experience the star wars world. I don't have the same expecations of single player games. For single-player RPGs, I expect developers to tell me a story and i'll go wherever they set that story. Anything beyond that is just bonus. In Mass Effect (which i LOVE) i never logged into the game and though "as an inhabitant of the ME universe, what do i want to do today? - it's never happened. I always log in and i'm commander shephard and i know the next part of the mission is to do X. or sometimes it's a choice between X & Y, but basically i'm contuing the story, i'm not living in the world.
In a MMORPG, i want to log in into the star wars universe and think about all the possibilities presented by this amazing IP and to have the opportunity to do many of the things I love about star wars. And while I accept that no game can have ALL possible star wars things to do, I believe having a ship and being able to go somewhere and smuggle something or get attacked are so critical to my experience of star wars, that without them, the experience is incomplete.
Again, maybe it's because i'm too much of geek, but I want to be like Han Solo, i want to be in that cantina, looking for customers or cargo for my ship, so i can make up the money i owe because of my failed smuggling run. And I want to have the choice of having dumped that cargo in the first place, and i want to outrun the empire and i want my smuggling reputation to be well-earned and i want to do the kessel run in record time... etc. etc... to me, these things are so intimately tied to the idea of star wars that a WORLD without them is not complete. A short game without them (like KOTOR) is just fine, especially a game in which i'm told that i'm person X, whose skills are Y and who is participating in the story Z. But the second it becomes about me making the choice of who i am, where i live and what i do - if it's set in star wars, then i'm getting on a ship.
And to be honest, I hated X-Wing and Tie-Fighter games, i'm terrible at them. But what can I sayexcept: "my star wars includes the stars". And while not all star wars games have to include both space and ground gameplay, an MMO definitely does.
good points and i don't totally disagree, i would like to play a game like that as well. that said, did you expect that from bioware?
yes maybe at the beginning some may have thought maybe they would go out in left field and make a sandbox type MMO
but as soon as they announced it will be a story driven mmo, something new and fresh to the genre, you should have realized right then and there that this will not be a game like you are hoping.
but i still don't see how extensive space combat would change any of this? you would still have class story arcs, the main story arc, and everything else.
i also cant see them making you only do the story content without letting you explore and do your own thing.
Originally posted by Garvon3 Originally posted by baphamet are you fans of bioware games? did you even play the original KOTOR or mass effect games? if so, did you like them? i can certainly understand wanting to play a star wars mmo with extensive space combat. what i don't understand is why any of you expected it from bioware, considering they never did it in the original KOTOR game? many consider that one of the best RPG's of all time, certainly one of the best starwars games in my opinion.....all without space combat, go figure!
So you're saying we should expect their massive budget MMORPG to be like their SINGLE player game?
Well, all evidence so far says it'll be basically a single player "MMO", so I guess that's right, good point.
no, i don't believe that's what i said at all. read the thread, read what i am saying and get back to me.
to be honest, judging by this post,you don't seem to know too much about the game if you think it will be a single player game.
My hopes were high when this initial project was announced,
I was excited initially because I dreamed about how cool it would be to have a galaxy to play in. An entire galaxy filled with Republic troops, Rebels and smugglers. Filled with worlds and space stations. Wow! Of course the later expansions of this dream MMO would add more worlds with more to explore and do.
Then I learn that SWTOR is not a a galaxy - it is a story (or 8 of them if you do them all).
Ugh... Then I learn that space travel is not travel at all, but is a story-driven space combat mini-game.
Unless something changes or I learn something radically different, I now have no intention of purchasing SWTOR on release - maybe 6 months after release when the price goes down - if it gets excellent reviews.
Originally posted by Zoomzoo I played KOTOR 2 to the end. It was okay. My hopes were high when this initial project was announced, I was excited initially because I dreamed about how cool it would be to have a galaxy to play in. An entire galaxy filled with Republic troops, Rebels and smugglers. Filled with worlds and space stations. Wow! Of course the later expansions of this dream MMO would add more worlds with more to explore and do. Then I learn that SWTOR is not a a galaxy - it is a story (or 8 of them if you do them all). Ugh... Then I learn that space travel is not travel at all, but is a story-driven space combat mini-game. Unless something changes or I learn something radically different, I now have no intention of purchasing SWTOR on release - maybe 6 months after release when the price goes down - if it gets excellent reviews. My opinion is my opinion.
you didn't play KOTOR 1? 2 wasn't even made by bioware and was nowhere near as good of a story as 1. you could literally make a star wars movie with the story from KOTOR 1, it was that good.
while i don't blame you for wanting a sandbox game, the moment they announced it would be story driven MMO (like the original KOTOR game) it was never going to happen.
seriously, did you think they would make a completely different game when they announced it would be a mmo designed around the KOTOR universe?
did you think they would totally scrap it and make a game completely unrelated to their brand?
that said, i don't blame you for waiting six months after release if this is not your cup of tea, no mmo is for everyone.
good points and i don't totally disagree, i would like to play a game like that as well. that said, did you expect that from bioware?
yes maybe at the beginning some may have thought maybe they would go out in left field and make a sandbox type MMO
but as soon as they announced it will be a story driven mmo, something new and fresh to the genre, you should have realized right then and there that this will not be a game like you are hoping.
but i still don't see how extensive space combat would change any of this? you would still have class story arcs, the main story arc, and everything else.
i also cant see them making you only do the story content without letting you explore and do your own thing.
there just wont be space exploration
STO is almost totally story driven and it has ground and space. i am by no means saying it's a good game, just that one doesn't preclude the other. It actually makes stories a lot better as you can be chasing someone in space, then disable them and follow them to the ground or board ship... it's actually very star warsy (just terribly written in STO's case), it's also missing non-combat mechanics (everything is story-based), but honestly, if i see an example of something made by a crap developer that can easily be made better, I expect a better developer to learn from it or exceed it.
Jury is still very much out on this whole story driven thing. LoTRO and AoC were both story-driven and it didn't really bring any mass eureka. EQ2 launched with hollywood actors voicing NPCs and most people just went /shrug. But that's a separate discussion. At some point a MMORPG still has to be a MMORPG, so no matter how awesome their main storyline is (and LoTRo and AoC both had excellent central stories that I enjoyed), at some point, people are going to stop doing the story and actually play the rest of the game and they'll spend the majority of their time doing it.
I have great respect for BioWare. Even ME and ME2 had space / planetary exploration, which makes me think that they know that this type of gameplay is interesting. But you're right in that their strength is certainly story. Their mechanic building is lackluster because they've never needed it. If they want something cool to happen in their (single-player) RPG, they just code it in as an except (i.e. you don't need a smuggling mechanic, you just write a unique dialogue that something's been smuggled). But on a mass scale and for a mass amount of players, mechanics are needed.
You keep saying "what did you expect?" and that's a valid point. Ever since the lead dev from bioware said in one of the early interviews that "we see WoW as our model for success", I basically expected WoW with lightsabers (for lack of better expression). Which really is what we're getting. So you're right, i wasn't expecting more, I guess i was HOPING for more, since this is my fav ip and one of my fav developers.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
I have played Kotor atleast 3 times each, but this still upsets me for three reasons:
1. Rail combat suck, rail combat + lag extra sucks
2. It's Solo only and can only ever be co-op. Way to get rid of that solo MMO rep, bioware.
3. If they are will to put in a lame arcade shooter in the game to show of one of the greatest part of SW. What else are they willing to put in? ME2 style "crafting"? STO style Guilds?
Edit: Also... Bioware sucked at hyping this. Teased it a few cons and interviews. Then go and put in a mag with a big picture of a space battle. Finally after that you learn... it's a tunnel shooter that at max last 8 minutes.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
are you fans of bioware games? did you even play the original KOTOR or mass effect games? if so, did you like them?
i can certainly understand wanting to play a star wars mmo with extensive space combat. what i don't understand is why any of you expected it from bioware, considering they never did it in the original KOTOR game?
many consider that one of the best RPG's of all time, certainly one of the best starwars games in my opinion.....all without space combat, go figure!
No interest in Space Combat, just charachter development and exploration.... And having fun with friends../.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
For this subject, it doesn't matter what they did with their Single-Player RPGs.
What does matter is what they're doing with their first MMORPG. To top it off, a Star Wars MMORPG. SWG when it came out in '03 had flaws. But if you catch up on those launch reviews, one of those recurring hits SWG got from it all was the lack of space travel and combat. Reviewers were asking, "How can you have a Star Wars MMORPG with no star wars? No space combat?"
A turret / rail shooter does not constitute a worthy space combat game for a Star Wars MMORPG. Because there is absolutely no depth, no choice, no worthwhile customization at all. No freedom in maneuvering. No good reasons to have a variety of ships to fight with at all, since a turret / rail shooter by nature has everything predetermined.
Hell, there were people subbing SWG and playing ONLY the space game and never bothering with the ground game at all. Except for crafting and picking up certain piloting missions.
The simple fact is that BioWare is trying to pump out an MMORPG. That means a game where it is expected for you to sink alot of time and effort into. Whether you are casual or hardcore, MMORPGs require a longer devotion of time and effort than you would ever do with almost all SP-RPGs. What does that mean, especially for a Star Wars MMORPG? You need ground combat. You also need space combat. Both need depth of play, reasons for you to sink your teeth into the game.
If SWTOR has a good space game, I promise you there are people that will sub solely because of that. A good space game will also give more reasons to stick with it. Another hook.
How many MMORPGs can boast having good ground combat AND a space / air / etc. game?
That's like expecting them to build two games though, and of 100% different principles. Spaced based games are a different beast, they require a different ruleset and focus than what has been planned for TOR. It fit into SWG well simply because it was a semi-sandbox with tons of different motivations to do this or that.
TOR is all about story, which fast paced action oriented space combat fits much better within. Think of it like this, say you approach an NPC of your given faction, they have an ongoing operation based on the ground and space, some pick up the ground mission and complete those objectives, while others pick the space based mission and complete those objectives.
This is how I see this working, which to me doesn't sound all that bad.
You have never, ever touched any of the older Star Wars X-Wing game series if you think space combat games will not have a good storyline.
The games within the X-Wing series of games had excellent storyline and tense missions.
As far as the seperation of space and ground or being able to select the mild mingling of both, hell, SWG already did it 6 years ago.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
are you fans of bioware games? did you even play the original KOTOR or mass effect games? if so, did you like them?
i can certainly understand wanting to play a star wars mmo with extensive space combat. what i don't understand is why any of you expected it from bioware, considering they never did it in the original KOTOR game?
many consider that one of the best RPG's of all time, certainly one of the best starwars games in my opinion.....all without space combat, go figure!
This is NOT a single player game, if they make it like one it will bomb.
Also Its called Star Wars and since their are STARS in space, well just put two and two together. It has to be a STAR WARS mmo not some childs themepark. You want to make Star Wars fans deeply peeved go ahead and make this a kids game.
For this subject, it doesn't matter what they did with their Single-Player RPGs.
What does matter is what they're doing with their first MMORPG. To top it off, a Star Wars MMORPG. SWG when it came out in '03 had flaws. But if you catch up on those launch reviews, one of those recurring hits SWG got from it all was the lack of space travel and combat. Reviewers were asking, "How can you have a Star Wars MMORPG with no star wars? No space combat?"
A turret / rail shooter does not constitute a worthy space combat game for a Star Wars MMORPG. Because there is absolutely no depth, no choice, no worthwhile customization at all. No freedom in maneuvering. No good reasons to have a variety of ships to fight with at all, since a turret / rail shooter by nature has everything predetermined.
Hell, there were people subbing SWG and playing ONLY the space game and never bothering with the ground game at all. Except for crafting and picking up certain piloting missions.
The simple fact is that BioWare is trying to pump out an MMORPG. That means a game where it is expected for you to sink alot of time and effort into. Whether you are casual or hardcore, MMORPGs require a longer devotion of time and effort than you would ever do with almost all SP-RPGs. What does that mean, especially for a Star Wars MMORPG? You need ground combat. You also need space combat. Both need depth of play, reasons for you to sink your teeth into the game.
If SWTOR has a good space game, I promise you there are people that will sub solely because of that. A good space game will also give more reasons to stick with it. Another hook.
How many MMORPGs can boast having good ground combat AND a space / air / etc. game?
That's like expecting them to build two games though, and of 100% different principles. Spaced based games are a different beast, they require a different ruleset and focus than what has been planned for TOR. It fit into SWG well simply because it was a semi-sandbox with tons of different motivations to do this or that.
TOR is all about story, which fast paced action oriented space combat fits much better within. Think of it like this, say you approach an NPC of your given faction, they have an ongoing operation based on the ground and space, some pick up the ground mission and complete those objectives, while others pick the space based mission and complete those objectives.
This is how I see this working, which to me doesn't sound all that bad.
You have never, ever touched any of the older Star Wars X-Wing game series if you think space combat games will not have a good storyline.
The games within the X-Wing series of games had excellent storyline and tense missions.
As far as the seperation of space and ground or being able to select the mild mingling of both, hell, SWG already did it 6 years ago.
That is not what the person you were replying to said, so it is irrelevant.
Whether the mingling of SWG and JTL was that good of a thing; well... opinions differ on that and the SWG devs at least, seem convinced otherwise.
As for you original post: what they did in their single player games does matter, as the entire goal of this operation is for them to successfully combine a BioWare RPG in the modern MMO genre.
That also means they do not want people to spend a sub to play the space game, you should get that into your head by now.
Why would they be making this huge thing if people were to hang out in space 50% of their time? They do not want that, that's not what they set out to do, that would be stupid on their part. That's like setting out to make a PvP game and having your playerbase spend most of their time in PvE (I'm looking at you Aion).
Lastly, a rail shooter like this is not a turret shooter; you can move your ship around, you just can not turn away and fly around freely.
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I don't think as many people expected space combat as you may think. I for one am in what I believe is the majority in being extremely surprised that there will be space combat in SWTOR. Overall, I do expect more in an MMORPG genre, but this wasn't one of my expectations. However, I welcome the attempt and just hope it's done right and not half arsed.
are you fans of bioware games? did you even play the original KOTOR or mass effect games? if so, did you like them?
i can certainly understand wanting to play a star wars mmo with extensive space combat. what i don't understand is why any of you expected it from bioware, considering they never did it in the original KOTOR game?
many consider that one of the best RPG's of all time, certainly one of the best starwars games in my opinion.....all without space combat, go figure!
I don't think they should have bothered with space combat at this point. A mini-game in itself isn't bad, it is the fact they are taking with so much potential and turning it into a mini-game. Why bother? Save the whole realm of space for an expansion and do it right.
The rail shooter is silly. You mention space not being in the original KOTOR. The original KOTOR also didn't have all of these classes and an online component. We can both agree that space, and space combat, is a huge part of the StarWars universe. The issue for a lot of people is that this is an MMO -- content that is supposed to warrant the monthly fee (or f2p/p2p hybrid model). There are more captivating cell phone games than this SWTOR space b.s. It is corny.
I am a fan of Bioware games although I didn't care much for Dragon Age. I played through games like KOTOR, ME1 &2, etc. 5 plus times each.
When I looked at that rail shooter trailer I swear I thought it was a joke. I keep hoping they are going to say it is a prank.
I mean seriously, am I the only one who sees it and laughs out loud at how atrocious it is?This is the best they can come up with for their MMO's space combat? For an ip that is filled with space battles this is cheeseball as hell! The ONLY reason they are tacking on this crappy rail mini-game is because people cried for space combat and they wanted to appease their fans. This approach is going to please few.
They should scrap the whole space mini-game. It's weak.
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are you fans of bioware games? did you even play the original KOTOR or mass effect games? if so, did you like them?
i can certainly understand wanting to play a star wars mmo with extensive space combat. what i don't understand is why any of you expected it from bioware, considering they never did it in the original KOTOR game?
many consider that one of the best RPG's of all time, certainly one of the best starwars games in my opinion.....all without space combat, go figure!
I am a huge fan of Bioware, ever since their old D&D based games. I wasn't really expecting space combat, but when they first announced it I was hoping for something similar to Jump to Lightspeed for SWG (which was foolish of me, for reasons I'll go into later in this post). I don't need sandbox worlds to run around in (in my opinion that actually ended up detracting from SWG for me), but being able to fly around in a system as you chose to was the best part to me.
I will give the 'space on rails' a try, but if I find it reminds me of playing Galaga or one of those other arcade style space games, I'll just give the space part a pass and concentrate on the ground. Frankly, I was surprised space combat was even added after I read a comment from Gordan Walton, BioWare Austin’s Vice President/Co-Studio Director (and former Sony Online Entertainment Austin VP/Executive Producer/Studio Manager). Basically he was attributing SWG's decline in numbers after JtL launched due to the 3D elements of JtL and a supposed player backlash at its launch:
“So it wasn't positive for retention, because the game was a very different game. It was a 3D space game. And in fact, a whole lot of people who play RPG type games don't really do the 3D thing that well -- it isn't their strongest suit. That was part of what we found out. The control scheme had to be different; everything had to be different. It was not as advantageous to us as we had hoped.”
“And in fact, we had a backlash of some anti-retention from the current customers that we already had because they were enjoying the game they were playing and wanted more of that, or wanted that fixed more than they wanted to fly around space in the Star Wars universe. It wasn't that flying around space in the Star Wars universe wasn't cool: the problem was that they wanted more of what they were already doing.”
As the author of that article (Link) correctly pointed out, the actual reason for SWG's drop in the number of players after JtL's launch was more likely due to the launch of WoW, which launched about a month after JtL (which went into juggernaut mode pretty much from the start, and unfortunately led SOE, at LucasArt's insistence, to do the NGE). The article is older and a bit dated now that we know space combat is in, but I encourage everyone to give it a look to gain some insights into Mr. Gordon's thoughts on the matter (and more than likely why we ended up with the space on rails approach).
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are you fans of bioware games? did you even play the original KOTOR or mass effect games? if so, did you like them?
i can certainly understand wanting to play a star wars mmo with extensive space combat. what i don't understand is why any of you expected it from bioware, considering they never did it in the original KOTOR game?
many consider that one of the best RPG's of all time, certainly one of the best starwars games in my opinion.....all without space combat, go figure!
Its a paint by numbers , side game. Not sure it will have any relevance in game at all. Hopefully down the line they can develop somrthing a little more meaningfull.
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I love how on this site( and many others) say " They should just do it right!!!" which always in gaming , movies and comics translate to " They should just do it like I want !!!"
Which i guess on forums is fine but you should just come out and say that. Gamming is subjective. There is no " do it right" whats right for one person is stupid to another Bioware never promised any sim combat they just said space combat no more no less.
Now weither whatever they attempt is done "right" ( right = solid" ) is yet to be seen but if your sitting around waiting on someone to make your game just how you want you might as well quit gaming cause its not gonna happen..ever.
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Of course you're going to find that here, we're all posting out of self interest. Some of us don't care, some do, some have other motivations to be speaking out on this. That's what we do, why? Who knows, most likely boredom I suppose.
Don't put to much care into what anyone says, most who are speaking out now will most likely play the game anyway at some point. That's another thing we do, even if at times we probably shouldn't.
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i seen every star wars movie ever made in the theaters when it was released, so i see where you are coming from.
however, how did you like KOTOR at all considering it didn't have space content at all? this game was never going to have expensive space content just like none of their other games did.
IMO they only put the space combat in to add to the story and immersion, nothing more. at least with the space content they did implement, you know that there is a conflict going on in space and you are a part of it.
rather than the original KOTOR games where you just fly from planet to planet.i also disagree that they are better off going without any, it adds to the story and to immersion.
if you don't like that, hey that's cool.......but i just don't understand how any of you guys (who share your opinion) ever liked any of the KOTOR or ME games.
several of us have directly answered this question for you. those were single-player games. one expects a totally different experience from an MMO - in which you spend 3-5 years - and a single-player game like ME in which you spend 1 week. Not that time spent is the only fact, in a single-player RPG, it's just a story and your part in that story. In an MMO, it's the creation of a world to live in and have different stories in.
I think all of us have played very successful MMOs that had no space gameplay and had no complaints about it. I've been playing EQ2 for the past 6 years and I never once complained that it really should have space gameplay of any kind. So we know an MMO without space gameplay CAN be built and be successful. We just don't think that a Star Wars world without space gameplay is a good representation of the IP.
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is there a question for people that don't care about space combat?
"When it comes to GW2 any game is fair game"
In general I agree with you but the truth is some people who you will here bad mouth this idea have bad mouthed anything about the game whether it's because it is not SWG2 or not a sandbox or is a thempark mmo whatever the reason is lot's of folks have already been on the bashwagon and of course aren't going to stop now.
My question though is how is this a bad thing? When SWG launched we knew there would be not even a hint of sniff of space combat/travel at all just that we would possibly get an expansion down the road and that didn't create an uproar so why would the inclusion of a limited flight component at launch cause such an uproar now. I've read the sentiment about how SWG has JTL but as I've mentioned and anyone there knows that was an expansion that took about a year before we saw it it wasn't in at launch.
Ultimately I would like to see TOR with a fully fleshed out space system but think it needs to be way better than JTL was which for the sake of the argument people are trying to make against TOR has been getting quite a boost in reputation, flight works well in JTL but it is not really a fun component as I've heard so many claim, the missions run on and on forever and are about as engaging as questing in STO is.
Either way it goes whether you like the game as a fan of mmo's, Bioware, or Star Wars the negativity and debating sprouting up around this topic is pointless and imo without merit though I'm sure we'll have this conversation up until launch and beyond.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
I think all of us have played very successful MMOs that had no space gameplay and had no complaints about it. I've been playing EQ2 for the past 6 years and I never once complained that it really should have space gameplay of any kind. So we know an MMO without space gameplay CAN be built and be successful. We just don't think that a Star Wars world without space gameplay is a good representation of the IP.
that is a very biased and inaccurate answer though, simply because you are amusing that there will not be enough content in this game so it "needs" extensive space content.
also, the end of your post is telling.....if no space content isn't a "good representation" of the IP, then why was KOTOR so successful? because it was a single player game so it doesn't count?
as long as there is plenty of regular content i don't see any difference between a single player game and an mmo in terms of representing the IP.
it does not need extensive space content just like the other games didn't. some of you seem to think it does because that's what you want but the success of the single player KITOR games beg to differ.
Insults? Pfft! I was referencing the comments people made. They are narrow-sighted and whiny... very much so. I am just wondering how happy these people will be when we get Rogue Squadron 4 instead of a KOTOR type of game...
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So you're saying we should expect their massive budget MMORPG to be like their SINGLE player game?
Well, all evidence so far says it'll be basically a single player "MMO", so I guess that's right, good point.
Im really looking forward to SW:TOR based on what is released about the groundgame. But I really dont like how they are planning to implement spacecombat.
Ive been thinking about this and to me it seems like a kneejerk decision from Bioware to add spacecombat in that state to release. When there was no talk yet about spacecombat being added, many ppl assumed there wouldnt be any. Which resulted in many threads on this website and SW:TOR's about how it was possible that a Star Wars game wont have spacecombat. So my guess is that they decided to add this as unfinished as it will be at launch.
How else could they decide to add it as a single player game for release? It really seems like a rash decision with damage control as goal.
And that's the problem. Mine or yoursi don't know. Maybe i'm just too old and grew up with MMOs that tried to create worlds rather than just short experiences. That was the main thing that made me play MMORPGs, that i could experience a different world. Not that I could run the exact same quest i do in a single-player game just with a chat room attached. That seems to be the trend today and the direction bioware is taking, just make a single-player game multiplayer. I'm sure it'll be a successful game.
But to me personally, it's not a good star wars mmorpg until it lets you experience the star wars world. I don't have the same expecations of single player games. For single-player RPGs, I expect developers to tell me a story and i'll go wherever they set that story. Anything beyond that is just bonus. In Mass Effect (which i LOVE) i never logged into the game and though "as an inhabitant of the ME universe, what do i want to do today? - it's never happened. I always log in and i'm commander shephard and i know the next part of the mission is to do X. or sometimes it's a choice between X & Y, but basically i'm contuing the story, i'm not living in the world.
In a MMORPG, i want to log in into the star wars universe and think about all the possibilities presented by this amazing IP and to have the opportunity to do many of the things I love about star wars. And while I accept that no game can have ALL possible star wars things to do, I believe having a ship and being able to go somewhere and smuggle something or get attacked are so critical to my experience of star wars, that without them, the experience is incomplete.
Again, maybe it's because i'm too much of geek, but I want to be like Han Solo, i want to be in that cantina, looking for customers or cargo for my ship, so i can make up the money i owe because of my failed smuggling run. And I want to have the choice of having dumped that cargo in the first place, and i want to outrun the empire and i want my smuggling reputation to be well-earned and i want to do the kessel run in record time... etc. etc... to me, these things are so intimately tied to the idea of star wars that a WORLD without them is not complete. A short game without them (like KOTOR) is just fine, especially a game in which i'm told that i'm person X, whose skills are Y and who is participating in the story Z. But the second it becomes about me making the choice of who i am, where i live and what i do - if it's set in star wars, then i'm getting on a ship.
And to be honest, I hated X-Wing and Tie-Fighter games, i'm terrible at them. But what can I sayexcept: "my star wars includes the stars". And while not all star wars games have to include both space and ground gameplay, an MMO definitely does.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
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But to me personally, it's not a good star wars mmorpg until it lets you experience the star wars world. I don't have the same expecations of single player games. For single-player RPGs, I expect developers to tell me a story and i'll go wherever they set that story. Anything beyond that is just bonus. In Mass Effect (which i LOVE) i never logged into the game and though "as an inhabitant of the ME universe, what do i want to do today? - it's never happened. I always log in and i'm commander shephard and i know the next part of the mission is to do X. or sometimes it's a choice between X & Y, but basically i'm contuing the story, i'm not living in the world.
In a MMORPG, i want to log in into the star wars universe and think about all the possibilities presented by this amazing IP and to have the opportunity to do many of the things I love about star wars. And while I accept that no game can have ALL possible star wars things to do, I believe having a ship and being able to go somewhere and smuggle something or get attacked are so critical to my experience of star wars, that without them, the experience is incomplete.
Again, maybe it's because i'm too much of geek, but I want to be like Han Solo, i want to be in that cantina, looking for customers or cargo for my ship, so i can make up the money i owe because of my failed smuggling run. And I want to have the choice of having dumped that cargo in the first place, and i want to outrun the empire and i want my smuggling reputation to be well-earned and i want to do the kessel run in record time... etc. etc... to me, these things are so intimately tied to the idea of star wars that a WORLD without them is not complete. A short game without them (like KOTOR) is just fine, especially a game in which i'm told that i'm person X, whose skills are Y and who is participating in the story Z. But the second it becomes about me making the choice of who i am, where i live and what i do - if it's set in star wars, then i'm getting on a ship.
And to be honest, I hated X-Wing and Tie-Fighter games, i'm terrible at them. But what can I sayexcept: "my star wars includes the stars". And while not all star wars games have to include both space and ground gameplay, an MMO definitely does.
good points and i don't totally disagree, i would like to play a game like that as well. that said, did you expect that from bioware?
yes maybe at the beginning some may have thought maybe they would go out in left field and make a sandbox type MMO
but as soon as they announced it will be a story driven mmo, something new and fresh to the genre, you should have realized right then and there that this will not be a game like you are hoping.
but i still don't see how extensive space combat would change any of this? you would still have class story arcs, the main story arc, and everything else.
i also cant see them making you only do the story content without letting you explore and do your own thing.
there just wont be space exploration
Well, all evidence so far says it'll be basically a single player "MMO", so I guess that's right, good point.
no, i don't believe that's what i said at all. read the thread, read what i am saying and get back to me.
to be honest, judging by this post,you don't seem to know too much about the game if you think it will be a single player game.
I played KOTOR 2 to the end. It was okay.
My hopes were high when this initial project was announced,
I was excited initially because I dreamed about how cool it would be to have a galaxy to play in. An entire galaxy filled with Republic troops, Rebels and smugglers. Filled with worlds and space stations. Wow! Of course the later expansions of this dream MMO would add more worlds with more to explore and do.
Then I learn that SWTOR is not a a galaxy - it is a story (or 8 of them if you do them all).
Ugh... Then I learn that space travel is not travel at all, but is a story-driven space combat mini-game.
Unless something changes or I learn something radically different, I now have no intention of purchasing SWTOR on release - maybe 6 months after release when the price goes down - if it gets excellent reviews.
My opinion is my opinion.
you didn't play KOTOR 1? 2 wasn't even made by bioware and was nowhere near as good of a story as 1. you could literally make a star wars movie with the story from KOTOR 1, it was that good.
while i don't blame you for wanting a sandbox game, the moment they announced it would be story driven MMO (like the original KOTOR game) it was never going to happen.
seriously, did you think they would make a completely different game when they announced it would be a mmo designed around the KOTOR universe?
did you think they would totally scrap it and make a game completely unrelated to their brand?
that said, i don't blame you for waiting six months after release if this is not your cup of tea, no mmo is for everyone.
STO is almost totally story driven and it has ground and space. i am by no means saying it's a good game, just that one doesn't preclude the other. It actually makes stories a lot better as you can be chasing someone in space, then disable them and follow them to the ground or board ship... it's actually very star warsy (just terribly written in STO's case), it's also missing non-combat mechanics (everything is story-based), but honestly, if i see an example of something made by a crap developer that can easily be made better, I expect a better developer to learn from it or exceed it.
Jury is still very much out on this whole story driven thing. LoTRO and AoC were both story-driven and it didn't really bring any mass eureka. EQ2 launched with hollywood actors voicing NPCs and most people just went /shrug. But that's a separate discussion. At some point a MMORPG still has to be a MMORPG, so no matter how awesome their main storyline is (and LoTRo and AoC both had excellent central stories that I enjoyed), at some point, people are going to stop doing the story and actually play the rest of the game and they'll spend the majority of their time doing it.
I have great respect for BioWare. Even ME and ME2 had space / planetary exploration, which makes me think that they know that this type of gameplay is interesting. But you're right in that their strength is certainly story. Their mechanic building is lackluster because they've never needed it. If they want something cool to happen in their (single-player) RPG, they just code it in as an except (i.e. you don't need a smuggling mechanic, you just write a unique dialogue that something's been smuggled). But on a mass scale and for a mass amount of players, mechanics are needed.
You keep saying "what did you expect?" and that's a valid point. Ever since the lead dev from bioware said in one of the early interviews that "we see WoW as our model for success", I basically expected WoW with lightsabers (for lack of better expression). Which really is what we're getting. So you're right, i wasn't expecting more, I guess i was HOPING for more, since this is my fav ip and one of my fav developers.
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I have played Kotor atleast 3 times each, but this still upsets me for three reasons:
1. Rail combat suck, rail combat + lag extra sucks
2. It's Solo only and can only ever be co-op. Way to get rid of that solo MMO rep, bioware.
3. If they are will to put in a lame arcade shooter in the game to show of one of the greatest part of SW. What else are they willing to put in? ME2 style "crafting"? STO style Guilds?
Edit: Also... Bioware sucked at hyping this. Teased it a few cons and interviews. Then go and put in a mag with a big picture of a space battle. Finally after that you learn... it's a tunnel shooter that at max last 8 minutes.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
No interest in Space Combat, just charachter development and exploration.... And having fun with friends../.
________________________________________________________
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You have never, ever touched any of the older Star Wars X-Wing game series if you think space combat games will not have a good storyline.
The games within the X-Wing series of games had excellent storyline and tense missions.
As far as the seperation of space and ground or being able to select the mild mingling of both, hell, SWG already did it 6 years ago.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
This is NOT a single player game, if they make it like one it will bomb.
Also Its called Star Wars and since their are STARS in space, well just put two and two together. It has to be a STAR WARS mmo not some childs themepark. You want to make Star Wars fans deeply peeved go ahead and make this a kids game.
See what happens.
That is not what the person you were replying to said, so it is irrelevant.
Whether the mingling of SWG and JTL was that good of a thing; well... opinions differ on that and the SWG devs at least, seem convinced otherwise.
As for you original post: what they did in their single player games does matter, as the entire goal of this operation is for them to successfully combine a BioWare RPG in the modern MMO genre.
That also means they do not want people to spend a sub to play the space game, you should get that into your head by now.
Why would they be making this huge thing if people were to hang out in space 50% of their time? They do not want that, that's not what they set out to do, that would be stupid on their part. That's like setting out to make a PvP game and having your playerbase spend most of their time in PvE (I'm looking at you Aion).
Lastly, a rail shooter like this is not a turret shooter; you can move your ship around, you just can not turn away and fly around freely.
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I don't think as many people expected space combat as you may think. I for one am in what I believe is the majority in being extremely surprised that there will be space combat in SWTOR. Overall, I do expect more in an MMORPG genre, but this wasn't one of my expectations. However, I welcome the attempt and just hope it's done right and not half arsed.
I don't think they should have bothered with space combat at this point. A mini-game in itself isn't bad, it is the fact they are taking with so much potential and turning it into a mini-game. Why bother? Save the whole realm of space for an expansion and do it right.
The rail shooter is silly. You mention space not being in the original KOTOR. The original KOTOR also didn't have all of these classes and an online component. We can both agree that space, and space combat, is a huge part of the Star Wars universe. The issue for a lot of people is that this is an MMO -- content that is supposed to warrant the monthly fee (or f2p/p2p hybrid model). There are more captivating cell phone games than this SWTOR space b.s. It is corny.
I am a fan of Bioware games although I didn't care much for Dragon Age. I played through games like KOTOR, ME1 &2, etc. 5 plus times each.
When I looked at that rail shooter trailer I swear I thought it was a joke. I keep hoping they are going to say it is a prank.
I mean seriously, am I the only one who sees it and laughs out loud at how atrocious it is?This is the best they can come up with for their MMO's space combat? For an ip that is filled with space battles this is cheeseball as hell! The ONLY reason they are tacking on this crappy rail mini-game is because people cried for space combat and they wanted to appease their fans. This approach is going to please few.
They should scrap the whole space mini-game. It's weak.
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I am a huge fan of Bioware, ever since their old D&D based games. I wasn't really expecting space combat, but when they first announced it I was hoping for something similar to Jump to Lightspeed for SWG (which was foolish of me, for reasons I'll go into later in this post). I don't need sandbox worlds to run around in (in my opinion that actually ended up detracting from SWG for me), but being able to fly around in a system as you chose to was the best part to me.
I will give the 'space on rails' a try, but if I find it reminds me of playing Galaga or one of those other arcade style space games, I'll just give the space part a pass and concentrate on the ground. Frankly, I was surprised space combat was even added after I read a comment from Gordan Walton, BioWare Austin’s Vice President/Co-Studio Director (and former Sony Online Entertainment Austin VP/Executive Producer/Studio Manager). Basically he was attributing SWG's decline in numbers after JtL launched due to the 3D elements of JtL and a supposed player backlash at its launch:
“So it wasn't positive for retention, because the game was a very different game. It was a 3D space game. And in fact, a whole lot of people who play RPG type games don't really do the 3D thing that well -- it isn't their strongest suit. That was part of what we found out. The control scheme had to be different; everything had to be different. It was not as advantageous to us as we had hoped.”
“And in fact, we had a backlash of some anti-retention from the current customers that we already had because they were enjoying the game they were playing and wanted more of that, or wanted that fixed more than they wanted to fly around space in the Star Wars universe. It wasn't that flying around space in the Star Wars universe wasn't cool: the problem was that they wanted more of what they were already doing.”
As the author of that article (Link) correctly pointed out, the actual reason for SWG's drop in the number of players after JtL's launch was more likely due to the launch of WoW, which launched about a month after JtL (which went into juggernaut mode pretty much from the start, and unfortunately led SOE, at LucasArt's insistence, to do the NGE). The article is older and a bit dated now that we know space combat is in, but I encourage everyone to give it a look to gain some insights into Mr. Gordon's thoughts on the matter (and more than likely why we ended up with the space on rails approach).
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
Its a paint by numbers , side game. Not sure it will have any relevance in game at all. Hopefully down the line they can develop somrthing a little more meaningfull.
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel