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The future of MMOs
Xotell
Member UncommonPosts: 34
There's gonna be more dream and opinion here than fact about the "future" of MMOs, just a warning.
I'm more than sick and tired and repetitive MMO gameplay, storylines and general narrow-mindedness, I'm almost done with MMOs altogether. Physics and "zero grind" are not just unnecessary for MMOs they're practically malicious. What MMOs, new and old, need is to be far more realistic.
First off "leveling" is a horrible concept, few things are learned or practiced in leaps, although there are some. Getting generally "better" at everything or "leveling" is the probably the stupidest part of MMOs but it was accepted in the beginning and still is for some reason. It should be changed to far more realistic progression divided into many facets of what makes anyone actually better at combat or survival. Same goes for skills and magic, the first thing to change there is learning skills from "trainers" and EverQuest had this done right where you simply learned skills as you grew. That too could still be expanded, why would you learn all the new skills possible if you didn't use all the skills you had before? One should only learn new skills they've used prior, similar versions of and become better at at each skill every time they're used not in leaps.
Next, quests, I don't care what time period it is or if there's magic or not, if you walk around a town there won't be 10 or more people standing around day and night looking for you to solve their problems. What makes the usual idea of questing even worse is that quest-givers tell you you're the only one or that you need to kill the enemy leader everyone else killed 1000 times before you did. How these flaws are solved though depends on a lot of things, since each game is different. Here's an idea I had though: player quests. Say you need 10 of some item and you have some extra cash but you have to leave soon, you pull up a template and fill in the blanks: title, description, objective and reward and put it up on a bulletin board or something like that where people can browse through the quests. Beats the grind and helps people out.
Next to last, economy, not just the average but the outlaying MMOs as well usually have just an auction house, NPC merchants and inter-player trading and maybe PC private stores, which is really just you sitting on the ground with some 20 character maximum message in all caps about how cheap whatever you're selling is...anyway, that sums up the economy. Several things are missing here, auction houses lack outside influence and benchmark prices, people just throw out random and usually too high prices and hope for the best. Basically there's supply and hardly any demand since MMO civilizations just appear without player effort, have already been made or some storyline about resources being collected (Warsong Forest or whatever is it from WoW) with again, zero player involved aside from a few quests. The only way to estalish outside influence or benchmark prices is to have jobs, which, in an MMO, means to me spending offline or idle time doing anything from mining or clearing forests for space and resources to exterminating threats to towns (yes, offline grinding) or building new towns. Sure people can run around "farming" materials to make some things but it's mostly personal and usually centered around equipment and consumables with no mention of maintenance on huge cities with stone buildings or even building new cities, which brings me to society.
NPC-only "governments" (another group of people standing around day and night doing nothing) and civilzations are static unless an expansion comes around. Every single town stays the same always, this is made even worse because major cities can be raided and have every major NPC and even leaders of entire races/factions killed only to respawn later like nothing happened. Players should be able to found towns and take up government positons or even become leaders and actually move game history forward. Enemies should be able to raid cities and actually have some consequences, damaging or taking over towns all the up to conquering entire races/factions.
But new and creative things rarely fall under the goal of making money, it's usually relabeling the same old thing and selling it like it's new.
One man's guts are another man's glory.
I actually didn't expect to be Black...
Comments
the levelling thing I agree with you. Its baffling a game that wants to group people together seperates them by level.
Well leveling and getting better is an important part for an RPG and most MMOs r still MMORPGs so its something u shouldn't change at all.
It sure would be cool if attacks on Towns actually would have permanent penalty's or permadead npcs....but prolly only for the ones attacking and for all others u would ruin part of the game i dont see that working in MMos it does work in a few RPGs tho.
I do agree that the quests situation is not realistic at all and if u think about them its just plan stupid but in the end its up to u to make it work u r playing a rolegame so a lot of the game happens in your mind (i do realize that most MMO player in today's time dont do that tho)
MMOs cant be as free as u would like them to be all ppls r playing the same game and paying for it so all have the right to expect the same so the quests will have to be there for everyone the NPcs i need should re-spawn in a reasonable time after all some cant play for hrs every day and would be in a big disadvantage to the ones playing all day.
The freedom u want and most of the other points u prolly can find in a good RPG but i just dont see them working in an MMORPG.
ps. Did your color test....i am Blue lol kind of expected green or maybe red but not blue lol
I agree 100%. Leveling is the worst part of MMO's.
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
I agree with most of the above, especially that levels really need to go. The mmorpgs really need to be ''given back'' to the players, giving us the chance to form, change and really influence the actual state of the gameplay. If a game were runs on like 5 different servers, there should (in my opinion) be significant differances between these servers determined by the different kind of players that play on them.
The grind needs to be really limited in all aspects of the game. One of the more important aspects to limit grind would be crafting. Really change around in the crafting system, make it worth the time and the effort and add some sort of skill component to it.
Full agree on skills and spells.
I really love the ability for clans to build cities/towns/outposts and for players to build houses in them. I think that benefits really all type of playstyles.
I would really like to see a darkfall-type game in a prehistoric setting with just one race. Really add to immersion by impleting a climate system that actually matters with seasons changing perhaps once a week with randomised storms and so forth. Also opening the door for abilities such as determening the weather. Another aspect I would love would also be the ability to evolve through research, getting better technology etc. Perhaps in some way binding that function to the cities so that there would be a constant struggle to be on the top of the pile - evolution wise. Kind of like EVE where when you get to far (getting that really big cruiser shit) people will team up on you to bring you down. It really keeps the pvp aspect of the game going.
Follow the jungle laws..... Pwn or be Pwned...
I've always felt, at its foundation, MMO's are nothing more than a huge chat room. So as long as the people you are with are good folks, the quality of the game itself matters less. That being said, a fun game to enjoy with my friends or by myself when the conversations lag has been a hard thing to find in the past couple years, for me.
The early days of Dark Age of Camelot & Star Wars Galaxies have been the most fun for me since I began in this genre. The follwing brainstorm list of mechanics is what made them fun, to me.
DAoC
- Quality pvp, it was fun to log in and have a call to arms to defend castles. Massive groups of allied guilds rushing out to take it to the enemy. It really gave me that inner feeling of defending our home with brothers and sisters of the realm.
- Customization, I loved having guild insignia on cloaks/shields - owning a fortress and beefing up guards/walls/doors with player crafted components. Lots of dye colors to make your character look how you like it.
- Huge selection of classes... Now this can be two sided because of how difficult it can be to balance, but I think its more of a boon on the side of giving you great selection.
- Darkness Falls. This was a --massive-- dungeon that was awarded to the realm with the most fortresses. Whenever it switched hands massive pvp chaos would ensue as there were always several raids, groups, & soloers inside from the realm that previously owned it - and they wouldn't get kicked out.
SWG
- Fully non-combat classes. The enhanced social interaction abilities of an entertainer. Full time crafter with shops and harvestors. It was a refreshing option from kill, kill, kill.
- Housing. Other games have done it before SWG but I havn't played any that have done it better... well except The Sims. /giggity
-Skill based "leveling". No levels. If you shoot a blaster pistol long enough your going to be able to kill stronger foes and get abilities to apply status effects/multi hit. Pretty simple. You could use the skill points alloted to your character any way you wanted. Commando by day... chef by night? Yes, you could do this.
- Space combat. I love flight sims so this was icing on the cake, and very key to the star wars theme.
- Bounty hunting. Went through a few phases.. but had to be the most fun when it applied to any class. Gank somebody in pvp? That guy can offer a bounty on you that a player bounty hunter can get in the form of a quest. So when you're getting some r&r in the cantina you'd best not let your guard down too much. Or *zap*
That's all in the past though, sadly. SWG f'd itself. DAoC is a ghost town.
As for the future of MMO's...
It's really all so stupidly simple and impossibly...impossible? Take the features of these games and other successful/innovative ones in the genre, combine them, and profit. Place this game in the hands of dev's who are open minded and listen to constructive comments. Give them the power to tell cry-baby whiners/trolls to shut up and /permaban. Give them the ability to admit when they goof up, apologize, and fix it.
Then we can all bask in the glory of a perfect game.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/Cloudsol/
I highly doubt the basic concept of MMORPG's are going to change much. While you will always have sandboxes on the side they will not be the big draws. Why, because most people escape to a game to get away from real world issues. Eve is there for you with all that stuff you said and still I would say most people come away saying they do not like the feel of the game. The game does well with its crowd, but many want to escape to a game, play withe some friends for a little while, run from simple stories (quests), see some inprovement, log off and not worry that what they did in the game is now gone.
I can not imagine a game where I get a call while at home or work and telling me I have to log in to defend the town or we lose everything.
I don't know what your idea of "Sandbox" is, but it does not have to be that way.
Anything fun, exciting, or interesting in other games can be done in a Sandbox game too. And Sandbox does not mean you can't do anything you can do in other games.
A problem with the image of Sandbox games is the failures that some small Independants have put out, woefully incomplete and bare bones. To go with that, when many of us talk about Sandbox game ideas, we talk often about the foundation that we envision the game to be made on. "Realistic", etc., but that is not the end of the content we expect. But many readers take it as just that and nothing more. It's not the case though.
Imagine this: take WoW,
take out the level grind game play.
Take out the directed game play
Take out zones for levels.
Take out the huge gaps in gains.
Leave in the quests
Leave in new weapons, armor, and skills, just reduce the gaps, the increases in power
Leave in everything else
Add social tools for guilds, player cities, politics, trade (I said "tools", don't control it by making it all a fixed system.)
Leave in "raids" (they aren't just for the "high levels" anymore
Take out the instances, add more world to spread players out
Just to give you an idea. I would build it differently, do quests differently, etc. And that's pretty rough, I'm just trying to make a point that all the cool and fun stuff from any other game can be in a Sandbox game too. But a Sandbox game can be better by way of "worldliness" and social building in various ways. And give players freedom to go where and do what they want.
Once upon a time....
This is like saying "Cars are the worst part of driving"
You either didn't read or didn't care but I explained what to replace leveling with.
One man's guts are another man's glory.
I actually didn't expect to be Black...
OP, I've got to say, I agree completely with these concepts. The implementation of them may be different, but that would be getting into specifics. I think you've captured the most basic foundation of a great sandbox game.
Once upon a time....
That's my biggest issue with levelling. It was a flawed concept in PnP games, made even more ridiculous once carried over to MMOs where the level range is far wider and players can enter into the gameplay at any point in time.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Why I disagree:
While, I AGREE leveling sucks, it's the BIGGEST teaching tool in any MMO. As your toon progresses so does your talents/skills and your ability to use them. To give someone a Loaded weapons and point them at a target 500 yards away and expect them to hit it is pretty far fetched. By starting the target off 25 yards away and gradually increasing it to 500 yards would take much longer, but yield more positive results.
Apply that to MMO's and you have a winning Formula. It would take Guild/Clan/Alliances MUCH LONGER to achieve anything if they were hust thrown into the Lion's Den with no preperation.
Does this make sense or am I off my rocker?
~Dan
Progression is the foundation of role playing games. You go from weak, to strong. You don't start out as the General of an Army, you start out as a Private.
The first time you ever pick up a gun, you're not Jesse James.
The first fight you ever have and win, after first picking up a sword, is not going to be the biggest baddest Ancient Red Dragon in the land.
If you CAN kill the biggest Dragon in the land, then why would you waste time on anything less? So, the game is over before it starts, since there's no progression.
IN PnP it works perfectly, so I dont' understand you calling it a "flaw". In PnP games, you play with friends, and you level up your characters together.
Even if someone joins a game in progress, you just hand them a character of the appropriate level and start playing.
So, where's the flaw?
In online games, the level disparity means players cannot play with one another, if their levels are to far apart.
But again, if you play with friends, like a PnP game, this isn't a problem.
OR, if the server is well populated, there's no problem finding people that ARE your level.
And, when you get to end game content, if there is a level cap, well, everyone meets at the cap.
The only problem is with mature servers, where leveling up can be a lonesome endeavour.
It's not that there is leveling, it's the huge gaps. It's not like learning to shoot a gun, in modern MMOs it's like having your gun turn into a canon, then into a rocket launcher, then into a nuke. That's what many of us are against.
Once upon a time....
XP and Levels are not the only way to offer progression in an MMO, just the most common, Ihmo.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Agreed. Level disparity was already an issue when there were only 12-14 levels. Now that games have 50, 60, 100, 150, etc level disparity is amplified. Why this got carried over to MMOs is beyond me, as it was obvious to see why PnP campaigns were designed for specific levels. Two easy ways to break a campaign are to use characters outside the level window it was intended for or to introduce members of a different level halfway through a campaign.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Progression is important and makes logical sense, but it shouldn't stand in the way too much of players teaming up.
Person A has been playing the game for 3 months, he recruits his friend Person B to the game. They should be able to experience the game together from the get-go without Person B needing to catch up. Sure, the new guy should be "weaker" than his friend as his fighting prowess/knowledge of skills will be lower, but they can still do things together that benefit them both.
What sense does it make that if two people stab two enemies in the same spot with the same weapon and everything else the same, that the guy thats higher level does ridiculously more damage?
I've always felt it pretty silly that in a game like WoW if you have a friend join up he won't be able to play with you until he does 1-80, then gears up, and by that time he might still be playing catch-up. Yes, you can level an alt alongside them, but you shouldn't have to.
I loathe grinding levels and doing tedius/repetitive fetch quests, I want the game to be fun from day 1 until I stop playing. I refuse to endure many levels of boredom to get to the good part and any other carrot-on-a-stick BS.
If removing the level grind makes your game suck, then it sucks anyway. IMHO ^
To be fun from day 1 you dont need to remove progresion. The problem is from players and developers now thinking that the game should be based on endgame, and thus, making the journey there a boring experience simply because that players want to fly through it
The leveling, or prgresion (it could be lvl, skill lvls or whatever ) its one of the core basic of any RPG, so as long as mmorpgs are rpg you couldnt remove it without removing the rpg part of a game.
If at lvl 1 you could do all of the content there is no need for progresion
Perhaps all people that think progression in a rpg is a grind should instead of coming to mmorpg game forums asking for the removal of the progresion in rpg go to the forums of fps games and ask them to make their games in a mmo enviroment, as you dont have progresion there and could join all aspects of the game from day 1
You're taking our comments way too far. As we said, we want some progression. We don't want wildly godmode progression. We want a different play style than it being all about the leveling, we want to play at trades, politics, building, exploration, discovery, and all the things that are meaningless in the level grind games (read as games that are only about leveling to godmode).
Once upon a time....
This is exactly my point. Progression as it should be is small, almost unnoticable steps, pretty much getting stronger per mob you kill so that a day of grinding for that one level turns into constant progression.
Also, after reading all the comments, I realized I forgot about combat, PvE raiding and classes which I'm as thoroughly, if not more, opinionated on as the rest of my topics...
One man's guts are another man's glory.
I actually didn't expect to be Black...
I totally agree with Amaranthar, there are just so many ways to have progression other than levels. I mean, really, what is the motivation behind even taking a quest; XP, currency, item reward? Shouldn't the primary motivation be because you say to yourself, "Hey, this quest sounds really fun, I think I'll check it out. Any rewards I get are just icing on the cake."
The problem is that you are all right. All of you. Then there are so many of you that gaming companies will continue to crank out shit games to accomodate you. All you want is fun fun fun, no progression, no depth, no nothing. You just want to log in...have fun two hours...then log out.
I mean if you're even complaining at WoW that says pretty much.
I am really hoping that some gaming company takes a step back and looks at what rolplaying and multiplayer really means. Because it doesn't mean what we have today.
That is why I am still playing a 10 year old game like Neverwinter Nights. Because it is the only game still that brings all of that together.
Sure...you need a sandbox...but that is a complicated thing...and the thing is...that the game needs to becontrolled somehow, you CAN'T leave all the power to the players..because it will not become the game that it was supposed to be.
Buy Neverwinter Nights 1 here! | Unofficial NWN1 homepage | NWN1 guild on X-Fire
Sandboxes are too difficult and are not even based on professional gaming tools. Games have to be games to be played.
People who are bored with WOW don't make the intellectual effort to paint "outside" of the standard Blizzard borders. And while Blizzard even offers these tools (shut down experience, level only through pvp, etc...) the majority of players are not even creative enough to use them.
They shouldn't be of course, but don't expect these players to even "invent" gaming outside of the fixed coloring borders (latest Raid, latest quests).
The future of MMO's is laying in fast hop in/hop out MMO play with an avatar progression curve and persistent worlds.
Cross PC/Console play.
WW2 Call of Duty as a new example of MMO will fit the bill as well as a console game based on the Wow engine with Bg's (and avatar progression).
It will depend on the size of the consoles how big those worlds will be.
Old hat MMO's are as dead as a rock (financially) in the coming years. Within 5 years WOW-2011 will be considered a hardcore experience, no doubt about that (in fact we look upon 2005 already like that).
At first I thought you were all about trashing the progression completely. It made me think, if that was gone, what was there to do in a game?
But I'm really in favor of your ideas. Especially the one about making quests more substantial than for winning the experience, money, and prizes. I want to get into a quest because it piqued my interest, snatched my attention, and then engrossed me with a chain of events that involved me and my actions into its outcome and not as just as a passing note.
Yes, I want to know what's going on at that abandoned cemetery.
Yes, I want to see if that shadowy figure that the smith just talked about is behind the disappearance of his son.
Yes, I want to take see if the rumors about a legendary warrior and his unbreakable shield are true.
*sigh*
I suppose there are things in life that are too much to dream for...