Community is an issue but even with the P2P servers content is going to suffer. I cant see companies making grindy, CS dependant content for the P2W servers and at the same time making good content for the P2P servers. So the P2P servers will suffer the problem of dilluted content due to time and resources needed to develop P2W content and cash shop items.
I don't know whether everyone is aware that Codemasters have already stated that they'll be guiding new F2P players to the quieter ones of the existing servers. That doesn't sound like they'll be splitting servers into P2P and F2P ones. I'm guessing that's Turbine's intention too?
I think he was referring to SOE who will have a F2P and a P2P server.
LOTRO won't see any changes to their servers but the content will now broken into various "Content Pack" that F2P users will need to buy in order to keep moving forward in the game.
yeah, going F2P means the game is failing/has failed to meet its expectatives, and in some extreme cases moving to F2P is its only way to survive on the market
F2P supporters rejoice of this, because in spite of their empty claims that F2P games are any good, they know their only chance of playing a F2P that isnt vomitive would be a game that wasnt designed to be F2P from the ground up.
they all know that the most mediocre or even plain shitty P2P >>>>>>> the best F2P hands down, and whats even better, P2P developers that are forced to go down the F2P road are a billion times more honest and less greedy than F2P devs, so their cash shops will always be incredibly more fair.
funny that its the same people that keeps preaching P2P is dead and F2P is the way to go...
Funny how you accuse F2P Supporters of making empty claims while you also do the same.
Do remember that your favorite MMO is subjective, and that many players have found a F2P (or more) that they like. Which leads to the conclusion that yes, there are 100%-F2Ps that "aren't vomitive". "My favorite MMO" is subjective and YOUR preferences may not be the same as someone else.
Wether you agree or not is somewhat irrelevant, F2P players have nothing to prove to you to enjoy their MMOs. But do remember before you make those claims that wether you agree or not is subjective. Especially when you don't seem to understand how the F2P market work, and can only "guess" how the players think, which I think is the most moronic form of thinking/posting ever.
Community is an issue but even with the P2P servers content is going to suffer. I cant see companies making grindy, CS dependant content for the P2W servers and at the same time making good content for the P2P servers. So the P2P servers will suffer the problem of dilluted content due to time and resources needed to develop P2W content and cash shop items.
I don't know whether everyone is aware that Codemasters have already stated that they'll be guiding new F2P players to the quieter ones of the existing servers. That doesn't sound like they'll be splitting servers into P2P and F2P ones. I'm guessing that's Turbine's intention too?
I think he was referring to SOE who will have a F2P and a P2P server.
LOTRO won't see any changes to their servers but the content will now broken into various "Content Pack" that F2P users will need to buy in order to keep moving forward in the game.
Yes I was speaking to the model SOE has adopted for EQ2 which contains servers for both payment models. However, I believe content for both LOTRO and EQ2 will suffer do to time and resources needed to develop for the cash shop and areas designed to be cash shop dependant. SOE will I think find it a problem to create areas with cash shop dependant content and still be able to create decent content for the P2P servers. In the end I expect the P2P servers to wither and die.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
In my server I'd play the real game as it was intended to be and have fun
and then on the other server the developers would have free reign to milk the poor idiots willing to spend 3 grands on a cash shop to subdue the pitful freeloaders willing to endure countless humilliations and punishment just for a free meal.
In LOTRO? Did they switch to FFA World PVP when I wasn't looking?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
In my server I'd play the real game as it was intended to be and have fun
and then on the other server the developers would have free reign to milk the poor idiots willing to spend 3 grands on a cash shop to subdue the pitful freeloaders willing to endure countless humilliations and punishment just for a free meal.
In LOTRO? Did they switch to FFA World PVP when I wasn't looking?
Unless im mistaken I dont think the freebies can access monster play. However after everyone is settled in I would not be surprised to see this changed. That is when the advantage items will be added to the cash shop.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
Yes I was speaking to the model SOE has adopted for EQ2 which contains servers for both payment models. However, I believe content for both LOTRO and EQ2 will suffer do to time and resources needed to develop for the cash shop and areas designed to be cash shop dependant. SOE will I think find it a problem to create areas with cash shop dependant content and still be able to create decent content for the P2P servers. In the end I expect the P2P servers to wither and die.
LOTRO won't suffer. EQ2 will, because they chose the wrong options for their F2P.
On the other hand, LOTRO will have Content Packs, which is the main way they will be making their money, just like in DDO. Like DDO, this should actually drive them (Turbine) to release MORE content, so that F2P players may buy them. It worked for DDO, it gets some content update at a decent pace, likely will be the same for LOTRO.
The thing about LOTRO versus EQ2, is that the cash shop in LOTRO is simply an alternative for the players on how to pay to play. Unlike the monthly sub, content packs highly appeal to casual players, as they get to buy an Area and take as long as they want to complete that area, without being bound by the monthly sub. In other words, Turbine won't tweak the content to make it more grindy or anything, it will be like DDO where you can just buy an Area, Additional Character Slots and removing the Gold Cap. Thinking about it this way. It's like owning a house (without all the bills), once you have your house, you need to buy a table, refrigerator, bed, TV, etc. Sure these are not "permanent", but they won't disappear after you use it once/ or 30 days, unlike Content Packs in DDO that are permanent to your account, but it's the best analogy I could find.
To be honest, LOTRO model should not be referred to as F2P. It's not. It's a Free Unlimited Trial Area, with 2 alternative way to access content that will appeal to both Casual and Hardcore players alike. The Free Trial Area will simply allow more players to try the game and possibly buy, that's about it.
And that's where EQ2 will fail, because SOE WILL tweak the content to make Cash Shop necessary. The F2P option that LOTRO and EQ2 chose are completly different.
The big thing is predictability. WOW can predict that next month, the vast majority of it's people will resubscribe, they can count on that $15 and maintain, hire, upgrade accordingly. The f2p games are very unpredictable with income, which leaves them not being able to assign resources far in advance.
The other big thing is bandwidth and customer service. Do you pay $1-2 per month for a hardcore free players bandwidth and provide them with customer service?
DDO is the exception, because it was first. It was the first, high quality game that was free to play. F2P games are notorious for locusts who jump from one game to another... do all the free content in LOTRO, then EQ2, and then maybe in a year decide which one to spend money on. In the meantime, the company has to pay a lot for bandwidth.
This is not a 'novel' idea.. this is grasping at straws. All of these games, including DDO would kill to have a stable/growing subscription base paying $15 rather than hit-or-miss items in a cash shop that do not allow you to formulate any type of plans.
I doubt any of these games will release 'income' to say just how successful it is.
The big thing is predictability. WOW can predict that next month, the vast majority of it's people will resubscribe, they can count on that $15 and maintain, hire, upgrade accordingly. The f2p games are very unpredictable with income, which leaves them not being able to assign resources far in advance.
The other big thing is bandwidth and customer service. Do you pay $1-2 per month for a hardcore free players bandwidth and provide them with customer service?
DDO is the exception, because it was first. It was the first, high quality game that was free to play. F2P games are notorious for locusts who jump from one game to another... do all the free content in LOTRO, then EQ2, and then maybe in a year decide which one to spend money on. In the meantime, the company has to pay a lot for bandwidth.
This is not a 'novel' idea.. this is grasping at straws. All of these games, including DDO would kill to have a stable/growing subscription base paying $15 rather than hit-or-miss items in a cash shop that do not allow you to formulate any type of plans.
I doubt any of these games will release 'income' to say just how successful it is.
I remember Turbine releasing a few stats since DDO turned to the F2P model. Not actual numbers of $ per year, but the average growth in %. I'll try to find the thread and I'll edit this post once I find it.
Edit: Found it.
Going free-to-play is paying off for Turbine, which says its Dungeons and Dragons Online: Eberron Unlimited has gained over one million new players since its September 2009 launch -- as the game's paid subscriber base has more than doubled.
The company says that its players transact in the new store at three times the industry average, and that the franchise's revenue has grown 500 percent since the change-over. Turbine did not attach a dollar value to its revenue claims.
When subscription games suddenly decide to go f2p does that mean the game is failing? I mean I know it apparently did well for DDO but whenever I see an item about a p2p mmo going f2p, which is happening with increasing frequency, I just think "That game must not be doing well."
More profit is made when you convert from P2P->F2P. Has little to do with whether a game is doing well or not, and everything about removing barriers to entry and making social-heavy games able to be social experiences (because all your friends can play for free.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The big thing is predictability. WOW can predict that next month, the vast majority of it's people will resubscribe, they can count on that $15 and maintain, hire, upgrade accordingly. The f2p games are very unpredictable with income, which leaves them not being able to assign resources far in advance.
The other big thing is bandwidth and customer service. Do you pay $1-2 per month for a hardcore free players bandwidth and provide them with customer service?
DDO is the exception, because it was first. It was the first, high quality game that was free to play. F2P games are notorious for locusts who jump from one game to another... do all the free content in LOTRO, then EQ2, and then maybe in a year decide which one to spend money on. In the meantime, the company has to pay a lot for bandwidth.
This is not a 'novel' idea.. this is grasping at straws. All of these games, including DDO would kill to have a stable/growing subscription base paying $15 rather than hit-or-miss items in a cash shop that do not allow you to formulate any type of plans.
I doubt any of these games will release 'income' to say just how successful it is.
I remember Turbine releasing a few stats since DDO turned to the F2P model. Not actual numbers of $ per year, but the average growth in %. I'll try to find the thread and I'll edit this post once I find it.
Edit: Found it.
Going free-to-play is paying off for Turbine, which says its Dungeons and Dragons Online: Eberron Unlimited has gained over one million new players since its September 2009 launch -- as the game's paid subscriber base has more than doubled.
The company says that its players transact in the new store at three times the industry average, and that the franchise's revenue has grown 500 percent since the change-over. Turbine did not attach a dollar value to its revenue claims.
When they switched DDO probably had no more than 50K subs and more likely 30k or so. I beleive. At least US side not counting Europe.
They have 5x the revenue and 2x the sub base. So they are making roughly half their money on P2P and half on "free" to play.
That F2P portion is roughly 800k-900k people. Something like 10x the sub base. So there is considerable extra overhead from the F2P portion relative to the revenue.
Howevver F2P is not only 50% of the revenue but also acted to double the sub numbers. So in reality F2P is directly and indirectly responsible for 75% of revenue. The sub numbers were clearly declining before it went F2P. So I think we can safely attribute the growth in subs solely to F2P. In addition the change over to F2P did not really change the update/feature schedule (initially). DDO has added a number of features since it went F2P such as a full respec system (which they really needed but resisted forever) and a new re-mort system, one of the few MMO to implement a re-mort. I do not know if those were something F2P instigated or not. At the same time the plans for druids and half-orcs seem to have been delayed since F2P came out.
For those who do not know what a re-mort is. A re-mort is something that originated in MUDs. I usually saw them in DIKU MUDs (ie. the RPG system EQ and WOW are based on). Basically when you are max leveled you go through a remort process in which you "die" and start over entirely new. New class, new race, new stats. Complete remake. But you get some kind of benefit in exchange for a permanent xp penalty. You basically replay the game at a slower pace in exchange for a bit of extra power or extra options. In sense you are not more powerful because you are permanently behind the level curve, at least until you hit max level.
The tokens you need to re-mort or respec are sold in the DDO store. They are also available in game but are much easier to get through the store. Also you can get DDO store points from playing so there is some back and forth there.
The DDO store also sells the new classes/races like Monk, Favored Soul, or Warforged. However I suspect the remort/respec tokens sell better. The Class/race unlock is a one time purchase. There is always demand for a token. Thus I am sure some features have been driven by the swithc over in paradigm.
At the same time subs still generate a significant degree of revenue.
Those figures are, of course, not entirely accurate. They are guesses but also they ignore the fact the subscribers make store purchases but they should be roughly around there.
As I have said in the past MMO are more like the Bar/Club business than many other. In some sense just getting as many people as you can into the doors and talking it is as important as anything else. Often quality means nothing. Although in DDO's case its the opposite. DDO has alot of things to offer other MMOs do not.
In the case of DDO going F2P and lowering the barrier of entry generated the "through the door" effect.
In the case of WoW the almsot preposterous Blizzard hype machine (much of which is simply done but rabid fans and not blizzard) does it and they can simply do P2P. I mean how many ignorant people think Warcraft was the first RTS? Alot. Mostly because of the self-perpetuating hype machine of blizzard fans. SC2 will outsell tons of RTS that are just as good simply because the echo chamber of the blizzard hype machine witll re-inforce people's impression that the story is really good or something when it is simply average. If enough people say something in unison it becomes true.
Comments
I think he was referring to SOE who will have a F2P and a P2P server.
LOTRO won't see any changes to their servers but the content will now broken into various "Content Pack" that F2P users will need to buy in order to keep moving forward in the game.
Funny how you accuse F2P Supporters of making empty claims while you also do the same.
Do remember that your favorite MMO is subjective, and that many players have found a F2P (or more) that they like. Which leads to the conclusion that yes, there are 100%-F2Ps that "aren't vomitive". "My favorite MMO" is subjective and YOUR preferences may not be the same as someone else.
Wether you agree or not is somewhat irrelevant, F2P players have nothing to prove to you to enjoy their MMOs. But do remember before you make those claims that wether you agree or not is subjective. Especially when you don't seem to understand how the F2P market work, and can only "guess" how the players think, which I think is the most moronic form of thinking/posting ever.
Yes I was speaking to the model SOE has adopted for EQ2 which contains servers for both payment models. However, I believe content for both LOTRO and EQ2 will suffer do to time and resources needed to develop for the cash shop and areas designed to be cash shop dependant. SOE will I think find it a problem to create areas with cash shop dependant content and still be able to create decent content for the P2P servers. In the end I expect the P2P servers to wither and die.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
In LOTRO? Did they switch to FFA World PVP when I wasn't looking?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Unless im mistaken I dont think the freebies can access monster play. However after everyone is settled in I would not be surprised to see this changed. That is when the advantage items will be added to the cash shop.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
LOTRO won't suffer. EQ2 will, because they chose the wrong options for their F2P.
On the other hand, LOTRO will have Content Packs, which is the main way they will be making their money, just like in DDO. Like DDO, this should actually drive them (Turbine) to release MORE content, so that F2P players may buy them. It worked for DDO, it gets some content update at a decent pace, likely will be the same for LOTRO.
The thing about LOTRO versus EQ2, is that the cash shop in LOTRO is simply an alternative for the players on how to pay to play. Unlike the monthly sub, content packs highly appeal to casual players, as they get to buy an Area and take as long as they want to complete that area, without being bound by the monthly sub. In other words, Turbine won't tweak the content to make it more grindy or anything, it will be like DDO where you can just buy an Area, Additional Character Slots and removing the Gold Cap. Thinking about it this way. It's like owning a house (without all the bills), once you have your house, you need to buy a table, refrigerator, bed, TV, etc. Sure these are not "permanent", but they won't disappear after you use it once/ or 30 days, unlike Content Packs in DDO that are permanent to your account, but it's the best analogy I could find.
To be honest, LOTRO model should not be referred to as F2P. It's not. It's a Free Unlimited Trial Area, with 2 alternative way to access content that will appeal to both Casual and Hardcore players alike. The Free Trial Area will simply allow more players to try the game and possibly buy, that's about it.
And that's where EQ2 will fail, because SOE WILL tweak the content to make Cash Shop necessary. The F2P option that LOTRO and EQ2 chose are completly different.
The big thing is predictability. WOW can predict that next month, the vast majority of it's people will resubscribe, they can count on that $15 and maintain, hire, upgrade accordingly. The f2p games are very unpredictable with income, which leaves them not being able to assign resources far in advance.
The other big thing is bandwidth and customer service. Do you pay $1-2 per month for a hardcore free players bandwidth and provide them with customer service?
DDO is the exception, because it was first. It was the first, high quality game that was free to play. F2P games are notorious for locusts who jump from one game to another... do all the free content in LOTRO, then EQ2, and then maybe in a year decide which one to spend money on. In the meantime, the company has to pay a lot for bandwidth.
This is not a 'novel' idea.. this is grasping at straws. All of these games, including DDO would kill to have a stable/growing subscription base paying $15 rather than hit-or-miss items in a cash shop that do not allow you to formulate any type of plans.
I doubt any of these games will release 'income' to say just how successful it is.
I remember Turbine releasing a few stats since DDO turned to the F2P model. Not actual numbers of $ per year, but the average growth in %. I'll try to find the thread and I'll edit this post once I find it.
Edit: Found it.
Going free-to-play is paying off for Turbine, which says its Dungeons and Dragons Online: Eberron Unlimited has gained over one million new players since its September 2009 launch -- as the game's paid subscriber base has more than doubled.
The company says that its players transact in the new store at three times the industry average, and that the franchise's revenue has grown 500 percent since the change-over. Turbine did not attach a dollar value to its revenue claims.
Gamasutra
If every game but WoW goes to some form of F2P similar to turbine's implementation (which is really content by microtransaction or subscription).
Then one should probably come to the conclusion that the failure is in the P2P model not the games if those games do well when they switch over.
More profit is made when you convert from P2P->F2P. Has little to do with whether a game is doing well or not, and everything about removing barriers to entry and making social-heavy games able to be social experiences (because all your friends can play for free.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
If you need to go to f2p to increase profits, then yes your game is a failure.
When they switched DDO probably had no more than 50K subs and more likely 30k or so. I beleive. At least US side not counting Europe.
They have 5x the revenue and 2x the sub base. So they are making roughly half their money on P2P and half on "free" to play.
That F2P portion is roughly 800k-900k people. Something like 10x the sub base. So there is considerable extra overhead from the F2P portion relative to the revenue.
Howevver F2P is not only 50% of the revenue but also acted to double the sub numbers. So in reality F2P is directly and indirectly responsible for 75% of revenue. The sub numbers were clearly declining before it went F2P. So I think we can safely attribute the growth in subs solely to F2P. In addition the change over to F2P did not really change the update/feature schedule (initially). DDO has added a number of features since it went F2P such as a full respec system (which they really needed but resisted forever) and a new re-mort system, one of the few MMO to implement a re-mort. I do not know if those were something F2P instigated or not. At the same time the plans for druids and half-orcs seem to have been delayed since F2P came out.
For those who do not know what a re-mort is. A re-mort is something that originated in MUDs. I usually saw them in DIKU MUDs (ie. the RPG system EQ and WOW are based on). Basically when you are max leveled you go through a remort process in which you "die" and start over entirely new. New class, new race, new stats. Complete remake. But you get some kind of benefit in exchange for a permanent xp penalty. You basically replay the game at a slower pace in exchange for a bit of extra power or extra options. In sense you are not more powerful because you are permanently behind the level curve, at least until you hit max level.
The tokens you need to re-mort or respec are sold in the DDO store. They are also available in game but are much easier to get through the store. Also you can get DDO store points from playing so there is some back and forth there.
The DDO store also sells the new classes/races like Monk, Favored Soul, or Warforged. However I suspect the remort/respec tokens sell better. The Class/race unlock is a one time purchase. There is always demand for a token. Thus I am sure some features have been driven by the swithc over in paradigm.
At the same time subs still generate a significant degree of revenue.
Those figures are, of course, not entirely accurate. They are guesses but also they ignore the fact the subscribers make store purchases but they should be roughly around there.
As I have said in the past MMO are more like the Bar/Club business than many other. In some sense just getting as many people as you can into the doors and talking it is as important as anything else. Often quality means nothing. Although in DDO's case its the opposite. DDO has alot of things to offer other MMOs do not.
In the case of DDO going F2P and lowering the barrier of entry generated the "through the door" effect.
In the case of WoW the almsot preposterous Blizzard hype machine (much of which is simply done but rabid fans and not blizzard) does it and they can simply do P2P. I mean how many ignorant people think Warcraft was the first RTS? Alot. Mostly because of the self-perpetuating hype machine of blizzard fans. SC2 will outsell tons of RTS that are just as good simply because the echo chamber of the blizzard hype machine witll re-inforce people's impression that the story is really good or something when it is simply average. If enough people say something in unison it becomes true.