That said, Squenix has had issues getting FFXIV promoted by NA media. Sort of sad, but I hope word of mouth works fairly well, and some of the hardcore elements that existed in FFXI being reduced will make it easier to convince my friends to play. Sorry for the tl;dr!
That's because they've seen it. Sorry, but you are over hyping what most (who have seen/played) aren't interest in, because its got so many bad and antiquated design elements.
That's because they've seen it. Sorry, but you are over hyping what most (who have seen/played) aren't interest in, because its got so many bad and antiquated design elements.
Show me on other MMO (Besides FFXI) that has such detailed cutscenes throughout the entire game.
Just one.
All I'm asking.
Edit: Also, please give me one example of a game using this style class and skill system.
That's because they've seen it. Sorry, but you are over hyping what most (who have seen/played) aren't interest in, because its got so many bad and antiquated design elements.
It's a shame there are still some out there that believe their single opinion constitutes what the masses believe. 'Most' implies you know what others think and that they are in agreement with you on this. I'm not saying there aren't some out there who think as you, but please do not include the rest of us into your vision of this or any other game out there. As you can tell from this thread alone, there are tons of us out there that do not agree with this comment you made above.
Perhaps the problem is just this game doesn't fit your play style, maybe too complex on the controls, perhaps too slow with little option for power leveling to cap in a day, maybe too much reading involved that gets in the way of whatever it is you enjoy doing (FPS correct?). I understand from your previous negative rants on FFXIV that you believe the combat to be sluggish, the graphics antiquated, the controls a 'step back in MMO design'. Either way, your negative opinion is just an opinion and yours alone, posing an argument stating you have the support of others in your thinking is arrogant and wrong.
Might I suggest that if this game does not appeal to your liking that you find one that does and include yourself into their conversations, that way you may be more correct when you include their unknown beliefs in your personal opinions.
I for one do not believe the combat is sluggish, nor that the graphics are antiquated, or that the controls are a step backwards in MMO design. Nor do I believe this game to be bad or over hyped. I am not a Final Fantasy fanboi either so please do not include me in those tirades either. That being said, please allow those of us who actually like what we are seeing to discuss them in a civilized manner without the snapping negativity of...how did Persi put it..... oh yeah '(aka the pseudo-racist, angry, non-explanitory rageaholic who doesn't know why they feel things - possibly a robot programmed to spam anger). I couldn't have said it better myself.
Sorry all, just trying to avoid the hyjack of a great thread by the....
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
That's because they've seen it. Sorry, but you are over hyping what most (who have seen/played) aren't interest in, because its got so many bad and antiquated design elements.
To each their own, but I still think magazines (admittedly most gamers seem to get their news online) who have an article about the MMOs at E3 should have at least mentioned FFXIV's existence, whether it was positive or negative, rather than completely omitting it in favor of MMOs not scheduled to release for another 3 years or those without release dates even in mind.
I'm not saying the game is without flaws as it stands, or that it's for everyone because it most definitely isn't, or that I only want to see positive reviews about it - cause I don't expect that from most of the NA audience, but I think it's at least worth mentioning. I mean, acting as though a company that produces some incredible RPGs isn't releasing an MMORPG within a few months just seems sort of strange to me.
Even hyped up this game seems much LESS than what I was hoping prior to release.
In fact, it just seems like a 'graphixhors' dream.
"It takes a big rig to run a game so that you can hit the 1 / 2 key every so often and auto attack a mob."
I mean I can understand defending the little nauseating things about the game like no jumping or swimming, but even the strong points like the pve element seems dull. "Having one character keeps you from repeating those long quest lines again." SEEMS to have came up a lot.
Eh, Square's last like 10 games tell me that the company's head decision makers are getting old and set in their ways. Play it safe, make it shiny, make the monies.
I read Game Informer's review when they gave it a 2 page spread. The reviewer said the same thing everyone's saying now with a build that I was told was 'ancient'. Doesn't look like much has changed. If anyone's wondering why gaming information networks aren't covering this game: MAYBE it's because they're Final Fantasy fans and they remember when the series meant something good was about to happen? I dunno.
Great write up tho' Persimmons; it's been my favorite one post NDA lift so far. Even if I don't share your enthusiasm.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
@eburn - I apologize for the tl;dr yet again. I enjoyed FFXI, so some things some people hate are things I rather enjoyed (case & point: I love international servers, but I also speak more than one language and sleep weird hours). Some of the elements I liked about FFXI are currently completely missing from the beta version of FFXIV, such as strong party play, but they're also two pretty different games despite some similarities.
Wouldn't say it's predominantly auto-attacking, since that was much more the fight style of FFXI or low-level in WoW, whereas FFXIV is on an active battle system (think that's the right term - going senial in my old age). As it is, playing melee classes feels more like playing a fighting game to me at the moment thanks to some high-quality button mashing to do exciting things like keep your shield up and then spam TP moves once it's charged, which is fun if you're in the mood for it, but playing Street Fighter-esque games when you're tired is not a good idea. It ends in death.
Whole-heartedly agree about Squenix's recent games though aside from the DS ones. I haven't even bothered to pick up FFXIII, and FFXII is lying abandoned somewhere on my bookshelf - and KH makes me sad just thinking about it. Pretty seems to be the focus of a number of game producers lately without concern to content, not just Squenix. Sort of an annoying fad. I'll rock me some 8-bit if it has a marginally interesting plot and epic battles (even if they're against bunny rabbits).
I think FFXI was pretty true to its roots as far as epic storyline, big bad villains, typical classes, and the changability that existed in some of the earlier games and was again introduced in the later games. What really impressed me about FFXI was how much an individual player could affect the game's world, though I haven't seen this element incorporated in FFXIV as of the beta and from the information I've seen I'm not sure it will be at least not for a long while.
FFXIV, on the other hand, has abandoned the traditional class names (which with my brain takes a few seconds for me to stop making the "WTF?" face when someone says "Gladiator" and I have no idea how to say "pugilist"), but it still contains all your expected spells, the classes are at the base very similar to traditional FF classes, there's some additional attacks, and the wonderful story-telling that's been abandoned in recent FF games (ugh, FFXII) is actually incorporated with the game. I personally think most MMOs have medicore at best storylines, and I think this element is what will attract most RPG players that go to the game in the first place.
Honestly though, if no jumping or swimming, little to no PvP focus, and having one character without additional fees when additional characters aren't necessary with the game's setup are deal breakers for you, then this most definitely isn't the game for you and I think there are plenty out there in the market right now that do have these elements. It'd definitely be best not to get involved with a product that fails to meet your deal-breaker requirements. I think people bring this up a lot since people from other MMOs complain about these elements the most - but the game's design isn't surrounding these aspects to begin with so it really isn't a loss. It's just something different.
/tl;dr end EDIT: healed typos. They were at risk of spreading diseases.
Squareenix could definitely do a better job over here in Europe this time around to be fair, I imported a PS2 from Canada to play the first and it was years before it officially arrived in Europe to little or no fan fare. Downtime was always during EU prime time as well which was pretty annoying
What are the antiquated parts of FFXIV? The death penalty is more or less gone, while the controls may have issues they are designed around a pad and I had no problems with them in XI. We don't really know how single or group orientated the game is going to be yet besides even if it group based as most here are hoping wouldn't that just be a difference of style? Lack of jumping and swimming, well it is Final Fantasy online and I've yet to come across those things in their single players game, unless they are in XIII which I haven't played yet. It looks like travelling will be much faster this time around.
The class and crafting systems are anything but antiquated, in fact they are probably going to be the most unique and original of any current or soon to be released MMO. The possibilities the armoury has is very exciting I think, it will be a lot of fun trying out different class combos.
Please don't mention 'grindy' either as the game that's set by people as the standard in the MMO world, WoW, is an incredible grindfest of a game, it's entire end game is more or less an organised grind. From daily quests, to badges, to honour point. The rep grinds were worse than any grind I did in final Fantasy XI, every patch during TBC seemed to add another faction you had to grind rep with
Western companies don't remove or replace the grind, they just chop it into bite size chunks and call them quests.
The only thing that slightly concerns me is the MP recovery issue, I plan on playing a Mage and I'd like for MP to regen the same as health seems to. Having to find a crystal or use a potion seems a very bad idea to me.
Edit: Hmm I'm not sure I'd agree about SquareEnix being too set in their ways, do XII and XIII not take a lot of flak because they tried to be different? (I love XII btw, think it's awesome) and making the latest DQ be on the DS and a multi-player game to boot was quite a departure. Surely the safe thing for FFXIV to do would be to go the WoW with a Final Fantasy skin route?
Thx a lot Persi, that's the best report i've seen on the game so far !
I just have one question about classes that wasn't mentionned: is there, like in FFXI, "synergy" classes that you unlock after lvling this or that class enough (like for example Paladin which was if i remember Fighter 20 and priest 10) ?
Other than that it looks sweet even if not complete yet
You're a Hardcore Survivor!
You not only survived the zombie apocalypse, but did it with style! Your mastery of zombie knowledge, survival tactics, and weaponry is nearly unmatched. Congratulations, for you are hardcore!
Wouldn't say it's predominantly auto-attacking, since that was much more the fight style of FFXI or low-level in WoW, whereas FFXIV is on an active battle system (think that's the right term - going senial in my old age). As it is, playing melee classes feels more like playing a fighting game to me at the moment thanks to some high-quality button mashing to do exciting things like keep your shield up and then spam TP moves once it's charged, which is fun if you're in the mood for it, but playing Street Fighter-esque games when you're tired is not a good idea. It ends in death.
FFXIV, on the other hand, has abandoned the traditional class names (which with my brain takes a few seconds for me to stop making the "WTF?" face when someone says "Gladiator" and I have no idea how to say "pugilist"), but it still contains all your expected spells, the classes are at the base very similar to traditional FF classes, there's some additional attacks, and the wonderful story-telling that's been abandoned in recent FF games (ugh, FFXII) is actually incorporated with the game. I personally think most MMOs have medicore at best storylines, and I think this element is what will attract most RPG players that go to the game in the first place.
Honestly though, if no jumping or swimming, little to no PvP focus, and having one character without additional fees when additional characters aren't necessary with the game's setup are deal breakers for you, then this most definitely isn't the game for you and I think there are plenty out there in the market right now that do have these elements. It'd definitely be best not to get involved with a product that fails to meet your deal-breaker requirements. I think people bring this up a lot since people from other MMOs complain about these elements the most - but the game's design isn't surrounding these aspects to begin with so it really isn't a loss. It's just something different.
About the combat system, I see. I liked the active battle system in previous Square games (Chrono Trigger anyone?) and was really excited to hear that it was going to make it into this game. But the combat pacing, the waiting, points, bar, waiting; seeing it in videos and the descriptions make me think of something way less Street Fighter and much more (global cool down, let's reinvent the wheel). I like the presentation of it, but I think in a way this route makes for a great distraction- of the same sorty of combat we're used to.
Pugilist is pronounced "PEW-gull-ist" a sort of Mid-English annunciation for the Latin Pugil, which simply meant boxer. I think they gave the classes more direct to their ability such names so when customizing the classes with the system someone can say "Look I made a monk."
Lack of PVP is my only prelaunch gripe before I heard about the combat and the quest / leveling system as it is. Which I think are really key components to any game entering the MMO market.
The only metaphor I can come up with to explain what it looks like from a consumer who wasn't in beta point of view is: If EverQuest's combat was a cube made of clay. FFXIV's is clay shaped like Mike Tyson with a pipe cleaner stuck in the side of his head. And quite frankly, there's only more explaining to do after typing such a metaphor.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
1) Whole-heartedly agree about western companies just veiling the grinding. I love seeing people other than me say this. It makes my inner cheeky child happy.
Though I think spending nearly a week collecting yagudo necklaces in FFXI for Tenshodo fame was the pits. Exp grinding in a group in FFXI was actually fun though - if you enjoy minibosses and didn't play a DD class where you could afk-fight and still do marginally decent.
2) Currently I'm a bit concerned about the MP recovery issue too, but there have been a number of complaints about it. The aetheryte crystals really aren't that far from anywhere you'll be playing, but it's still annoying and a waste. Consequently, I use a pugilist skill with a 90 second recast for all my HP recovery needs, just a lot of the conjurer skills are incredibly useful for melee if they're soloing.
3) I loved FFXII's gameplay (minus getting smacked around by mobs that could ass-rape me with no save point in the past hour. I did not like that at all). Reason I haven't been able to finish it is because the storyline isn't immersive and had little character development. I'm not even sure why Vaan was there. It was sort of like reading a fantasy romance novel without smut where someone wrote themselves into the story to be a topless prettyboy with no personality. From what I hear, it'd be like Twilight.
4) I think the least safe thing for FFXIV to do would be to go the WoW route with an FF skin. A lot of other games have tried to attack that player base and usually fail to get more than a 100k globally, since they'll never have the player power behind WoW. Making something different focused on PvE isn't going to grab as many subscribers initially as those games do, but it'll likely have a longer lasting player base. People who are pissy about the lack of PvP have every right to say this isn't the game for them, since it isn't aimed at them to begin with.
But the combat pacing, the waiting, points, bar, waiting; seeing it in videos and the descriptions make me think of something way less Street Fighter and much more (global cool down, let's reinvent the wheel).
Maybe the problem was that you assumed an FF game, let alone any (non 2d) MMO in this day and age, would play like Street Fighter?
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Edit: Hmm I'm not sure I'd agree about SquareEnix being too set in their ways, do XII and XIII not take a lot of flak because they tried to be different? (I love XII btw, think it's awesome) and making the latest DQ be on the DS and a multi-player game to boot was quite a departure. Surely the safe thing for FFXIV to do would be to go the WoW with a Final Fantasy skin route?
Grinding happens in any sort of game any human can play if you break it down like that Kordac. By your view, FFXIV would be a total grind. Leveling up each class so that one character can access each of the job's actions, by your definition, is an act of grinding in and of itself.
But on to the point quoted: 12 and 13 are auto play games. The story is there, 12's graphics are amazing for the PS2, and there's good stories in both to be told. The game play in either game is stripped. As simple as X was compared to previous game installments (X-2 being a noteable exception, because it was quite different and I figure a feeling ground) 12 lacked any real strategy. Also the progression was time consuming.
My fear for XIV is that it isn't exactly a WoW clone, but rather games that predate it. The quests sound terribly boring save for a gem here and there, and the fact that the leves are even more bare bones (do this) for no other reason than equipment gain.. I think it's more of a WoW clone than you'd be willing to allow yourself to see. That part alone seems like SE figured out "No one's reading the quests most of the time anyway, let's give them something to do every so often that's just a quick jip to a goal."
It's interesting, but there's nothing really ground breaking for this game other than Armory. And even it seems to have some baggage keeping it from being realized fully.
It's all too very safe feeling.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
I just have one question about classes that wasn't mentionned: is there, like in FFXI, "synergy" classes that you unlock after lvling this or that class enough (like for example Paladin which was if i remember Fighter 20 and priest 10) ?
Hey haibane - I think you might be confusing FFXI with another game. In FFXI you had to get a starter job to a minimum level of 30+ then do a quest to unlock each advanced job. Beginner jobs were Warrior, White Mage, etc...so you'd have to level one of those jobs up to 30 at least then do the quest to unlock Paladin. These advanced jobs weren't released in the game until the first expansion pack, so everything was playable at the first release. For non-JP players, though, the first advanced jobs were included with the first retail copy of the game since we had a later release date.
Currently FFXIV doesn't have a system like that included, and if it were included I'd guess it'd probably not be around until the first expansion pack. Everything is playable right from the get-go, so long as you have the weapon for the class.
But the combat pacing, the waiting, points, bar, waiting; seeing it in videos and the descriptions make me think of something way less Street Fighter and much more (global cool down, let's reinvent the wheel).
Maybe the problem was that you assumed an FF game, let alone any (non 2d) MMO in this day and age, would play like Street Fighter?
I didn't think FFXIV would play like Street Fighter. I expected it to play like any other MMO, except with a global cooldown. But now I see not only is it a global cool down, but there's sub systems involved to activate other things. Where as the majority of the strategy seems to come from waiting, and waiting, and then eventually after enough time passes you'll meet the requirments to pull off an ability.. and then wait to coordinate the best time to do so.
I like strategy, but this doesn't that element to a MMORPG any better than WoW does.
In fact it's the same thing, but with more waiting.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
Lack of PVP is my only prelaunch gripe before I heard about the combat and the quest / leveling system as it is. Which I think are really key components to any game entering the MMO market.
The only metaphor I can come up with to explain what it looks like from a consumer who wasn't in beta point of view is: If EverQuest's combat was a cube made of clay. FFXIV's is clay shaped like Mike Tyson with a pipe cleaner stuck in the side of his head. And quite frankly, there's only more explaining to do after typing such a metaphor.
Currently due to the MP limitations on the mage classes (which really needs to be adjusted before launch), those jobs would definitely be more "smack, wait, smack, wait, wait, smack, use spell cause you're about to die, smack". It's really boring unless you don't mind hauling your butt back to the aetheryte to get more MP, so I only leveled conjurer to 8 so I could get me some sexy buffs for melee jobs.
I've mainly played gladiator (mmm, shield) and pugilist so far for melee, and as long as you actually set skills and possibly played maybe one other class to level 4-6, you'll be spamming something nearly constantly by level 6. Of course, level 1 is the same old smack&wait since you have next to no skills. Also if you go into a battle without being in active mode about a second before using a skill, there will probably be more waiting since your action bar will be a bit on the empty side to begin with, but within 2 fights that's no longer an issue.
Some skills do have long recast timers - for example Second Wind which is a Pugilist skill that recovers some HP is 90 seconds if equipped on a non-Pugilist class, but for the most part due to HP recovering out of combat I haven't needed it more than every 90 seconds unless I made a mistake and attacked something that wanted to eat my first born son. If you only equip one TP move with melee classes, there will be a lot more waiting, but with two I was button mashing one almost constantly and you should have two by level 6 or can grab one from another class. I think the slowness of it really has a lot to do with how you set up your skills.
I'm honestly immune to blatant grinding since almost all quests I've seen in other games essentially ask you to grind then run back to the quest giver (minus blowing stuff up in WoW -- I approve of blowing stuff up), and I think guildleves are pretty fun though in the current beta they're limited a bit much. Also in guildleves you don't have to run back to where you started to get your sweet, sweet rewards - it's delivered upon completion which my lovely, lazy butt likes. Also it offers to teleport you back to camp after finishing.
Also the game isn't targeting the PvP market, so if that's a dealbreaker for you I can completely understand wanting to avoid FFXIV. The main focus is PvE, and based on FFXI's PvP, PvE will remain the focus even if a PvP system is added later on. Some people love it, some people hate it, some people just want to give it a try for something different - and it most definitely is different.
...Your metaphor made me think of shirtless Old Spice man building a kitchen with his bare hands (and a pipe cleaner) then baking me a cake, so I approve.
Good review and interesting information about a game that we are waiting.
I've been playing since UO and don't fear any strange or complicated UI, I had enough with that game concerning this problem. I've played many games you can imagine. The last one that i played seriously was WAR and now waiting for an inmersive game like XIV. I hope there are a lot of things to do, because i played around 9 hours a day in WAR.
Watching a bar fill =/= watching a grey hotbar icon timer or radial change colors
Take your pick.
It's not just a bar tho'. There's more to it.
I'd rather have neither, but if I have to have a cooldown I'd also rather it not be completly global either.
Slow is only good if there's a reason for it.
What global cooldown are you talking about? You can chain attacks together instantly as long as you have the stamina for it. For instance I can use Moonrise and immediately Heavy Thrust on a lancer, both attacks go off around the same time. There is no global cooldown.
Good review and interesting information about a game that we are waiting.
I've been playing since UO and don't fear any strange or complicated UI, I had enough with that game concerning this problem. I've played many games you can imagine. The last one that i played seriously was WAR and now waiting for an inmersive game like XIV. I hope there are a lot of things to do, because i played around 9 hours a day in WAR.
There is enough content for people like me?
At this point in the beta, we aren't sure. If you're playing with friends, definiately. Solo, about an hour. While a lot of the content is locked for us in beta, we are able to level as normal... And that part gets boring if you aren't leeching leves or doing your own in a group. Unless they change the cap on leves (and allow us to repeat them), I don't see the current system working and providing ample leveling gameplay outside of pure grinding. (And grinding is further capped by this random surplus exp debuff most of us have going on.)
While I do believe they will change around how Leves work, it's not all too amazing right now post Level 14.
@Eridanix - just to add to what Etra said (which as of now in the beta is pretty spot on), if you take part in crafting or gathering (well, not botany and mining since those are boring currently IMHO), you can easily be busy for hours. If not, as it is you'll be entertained for about 1 hour if you go solo, then jump into grind action. If you join a linkshell though you shouldn't have this problem.
Though I can't say for sure anything about release since Squenix has said the beta isn't there to test the content, and we only have 1/5 main cities and can't hop into the smaller towns in the area as of yet (or at least I can't ).
Grinding happens in any sort of game any human can play if you break it down like that Kordac. By your view, FFXIV would be a total grind. Leveling up each class so that one character can access each of the job's actions, by your definition, is an act of grinding in and of itself.
I didn't mean to imply that I believe FFXI had no grinding or FFXIV won't have any grinding as that would simply be wrong, sorry if that's the way it came across. What I meant more was I find it slightly amusing and a little hypocritical when players of games like WoW or WAR etc complain about how this game will be nothing but a grind when the games they are playing have lots of grinding themselves.
I don't mean to come across as a WoW 'hater' either, I had 3-4 good years in that game it's just Blizzard went in a direction I didn't want to follow plus I was simply bored of the formula. However I can also see the game for what it is as well and let me explain further. I quit WoW just after WOTLK launched, I got my Priest to 72 but I simply had no appetite for it any more but before that I was a pretty hardcore raider and I had level 70 Priest, Hunter, Mage and Druid as well as a 66 Paladin.
Log on an hour or 90 minutes before the raid to do my dailies which were the same thing everyday but hey, they are an easy way to grind gold. I did that more or less every evening for months to support my raiding. Grinding
We ran dungeons we'd beat months before simply to gear up for the next tier, hell even at the end of Black temple I was still running Karazhan weekly. I could do it my sleep and it had long since stopped being fun but it was by far the best source of badges so you just got on with it, we would run Zul Aman once a week to get people their war bears months after we had it beat. I think those sorts of things are in every bit as grindy as getting an XP party together and heading out for 2-3 hours was in FFXI. Grinding
What I meant to get across is that FFXIV will have grind, but so does every MMO it's just Blizzard are better at making the pill easier to swallow is all and like I said it's slightly amusing to hear people hark on about grind in eastern MMOs and they then go back and do their dailies again and clear Karazhan for the 100th time. I still played WoW even with that grind as my guild mates and some of the boss fights made it worth while even if I do think WoW lost the epic feeling that BWL had.
Besides sometimes I think grind has as much to do with what mood you are in as it does to the game mechanics, plenty of days I could happily grind away whilst listening to music and talking with friends, other days I simply can't be bothered.
Note to self; must learn to write shorter posts >_<
Comments
That's because they've seen it. Sorry, but you are over hyping what most (who have seen/played) aren't interest in, because its got so many bad and antiquated design elements.
Show me on other MMO (Besides FFXI) that has such detailed cutscenes throughout the entire game.
Just one.
All I'm asking.
Edit: Also, please give me one example of a game using this style class and skill system.
It's a shame there are still some out there that believe their single opinion constitutes what the masses believe. 'Most' implies you know what others think and that they are in agreement with you on this. I'm not saying there aren't some out there who think as you, but please do not include the rest of us into your vision of this or any other game out there. As you can tell from this thread alone, there are tons of us out there that do not agree with this comment you made above.
Perhaps the problem is just this game doesn't fit your play style, maybe too complex on the controls, perhaps too slow with little option for power leveling to cap in a day, maybe too much reading involved that gets in the way of whatever it is you enjoy doing (FPS correct?). I understand from your previous negative rants on FFXIV that you believe the combat to be sluggish, the graphics antiquated, the controls a 'step back in MMO design'. Either way, your negative opinion is just an opinion and yours alone, posing an argument stating you have the support of others in your thinking is arrogant and wrong.
Might I suggest that if this game does not appeal to your liking that you find one that does and include yourself into their conversations, that way you may be more correct when you include their unknown beliefs in your personal opinions.
I for one do not believe the combat is sluggish, nor that the graphics are antiquated, or that the controls are a step backwards in MMO design. Nor do I believe this game to be bad or over hyped. I am not a Final Fantasy fanboi either so please do not include me in those tirades either. That being said, please allow those of us who actually like what we are seeing to discuss them in a civilized manner without the snapping negativity of...how did Persi put it..... oh yeah '(aka the pseudo-racist, angry, non-explanitory rageaholic who doesn't know why they feel things - possibly a robot programmed to spam anger). I couldn't have said it better myself.
Sorry all, just trying to avoid the hyjack of a great thread by the....
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
Thak you so much for the post. Awesome post!
Dax
To each their own, but I still think magazines (admittedly most gamers seem to get their news online) who have an article about the MMOs at E3 should have at least mentioned FFXIV's existence, whether it was positive or negative, rather than completely omitting it in favor of MMOs not scheduled to release for another 3 years or those without release dates even in mind.
I'm not saying the game is without flaws as it stands, or that it's for everyone because it most definitely isn't, or that I only want to see positive reviews about it - cause I don't expect that from most of the NA audience, but I think it's at least worth mentioning. I mean, acting as though a company that produces some incredible RPGs isn't releasing an MMORPG within a few months just seems sort of strange to me.
Even hyped up this game seems much LESS than what I was hoping prior to release.
In fact, it just seems like a 'graphixhors' dream.
"It takes a big rig to run a game so that you can hit the 1 / 2 key every so often and auto attack a mob."
I mean I can understand defending the little nauseating things about the game like no jumping or swimming, but even the strong points like the pve element seems dull. "Having one character keeps you from repeating those long quest lines again." SEEMS to have came up a lot.
Eh, Square's last like 10 games tell me that the company's head decision makers are getting old and set in their ways. Play it safe, make it shiny, make the monies.
I read Game Informer's review when they gave it a 2 page spread. The reviewer said the same thing everyone's saying now with a build that I was told was 'ancient'. Doesn't look like much has changed. If anyone's wondering why gaming information networks aren't covering this game: MAYBE it's because they're Final Fantasy fans and they remember when the series meant something good was about to happen? I dunno.
Great write up tho' Persimmons; it's been my favorite one post NDA lift so far. Even if I don't share your enthusiasm.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
@eburn - I apologize for the tl;dr yet again. I enjoyed FFXI, so some things some people hate are things I rather enjoyed (case & point: I love international servers, but I also speak more than one language and sleep weird hours). Some of the elements I liked about FFXI are currently completely missing from the beta version of FFXIV, such as strong party play, but they're also two pretty different games despite some similarities.
Wouldn't say it's predominantly auto-attacking, since that was much more the fight style of FFXI or low-level in WoW, whereas FFXIV is on an active battle system (think that's the right term - going senial in my old age). As it is, playing melee classes feels more like playing a fighting game to me at the moment thanks to some high-quality button mashing to do exciting things like keep your shield up and then spam TP moves once it's charged, which is fun if you're in the mood for it, but playing Street Fighter-esque games when you're tired is not a good idea. It ends in death.
Whole-heartedly agree about Squenix's recent games though aside from the DS ones. I haven't even bothered to pick up FFXIII, and FFXII is lying abandoned somewhere on my bookshelf - and KH makes me sad just thinking about it. Pretty seems to be the focus of a number of game producers lately without concern to content, not just Squenix. Sort of an annoying fad. I'll rock me some 8-bit if it has a marginally interesting plot and epic battles (even if they're against bunny rabbits).
I think FFXI was pretty true to its roots as far as epic storyline, big bad villains, typical classes, and the changability that existed in some of the earlier games and was again introduced in the later games. What really impressed me about FFXI was how much an individual player could affect the game's world, though I haven't seen this element incorporated in FFXIV as of the beta and from the information I've seen I'm not sure it will be at least not for a long while.
FFXIV, on the other hand, has abandoned the traditional class names (which with my brain takes a few seconds for me to stop making the "WTF?" face when someone says "Gladiator" and I have no idea how to say "pugilist"), but it still contains all your expected spells, the classes are at the base very similar to traditional FF classes, there's some additional attacks, and the wonderful story-telling that's been abandoned in recent FF games (ugh, FFXII) is actually incorporated with the game. I personally think most MMOs have medicore at best storylines, and I think this element is what will attract most RPG players that go to the game in the first place.
Honestly though, if no jumping or swimming, little to no PvP focus, and having one character without additional fees when additional characters aren't necessary with the game's setup are deal breakers for you, then this most definitely isn't the game for you and I think there are plenty out there in the market right now that do have these elements. It'd definitely be best not to get involved with a product that fails to meet your deal-breaker requirements. I think people bring this up a lot since people from other MMOs complain about these elements the most - but the game's design isn't surrounding these aspects to begin with so it really isn't a loss. It's just something different.
/tl;dr end EDIT: healed typos. They were at risk of spreading diseases.
Squareenix could definitely do a better job over here in Europe this time around to be fair, I imported a PS2 from Canada to play the first and it was years before it officially arrived in Europe to little or no fan fare. Downtime was always during EU prime time as well which was pretty annoying
What are the antiquated parts of FFXIV? The death penalty is more or less gone, while the controls may have issues they are designed around a pad and I had no problems with them in XI. We don't really know how single or group orientated the game is going to be yet besides even if it group based as most here are hoping wouldn't that just be a difference of style? Lack of jumping and swimming, well it is Final Fantasy online and I've yet to come across those things in their single players game, unless they are in XIII which I haven't played yet. It looks like travelling will be much faster this time around.
The class and crafting systems are anything but antiquated, in fact they are probably going to be the most unique and original of any current or soon to be released MMO. The possibilities the armoury has is very exciting I think, it will be a lot of fun trying out different class combos.
Please don't mention 'grindy' either as the game that's set by people as the standard in the MMO world, WoW, is an incredible grindfest of a game, it's entire end game is more or less an organised grind. From daily quests, to badges, to honour point. The rep grinds were worse than any grind I did in final Fantasy XI, every patch during TBC seemed to add another faction you had to grind rep with
Western companies don't remove or replace the grind, they just chop it into bite size chunks and call them quests.
The only thing that slightly concerns me is the MP recovery issue, I plan on playing a Mage and I'd like for MP to regen the same as health seems to. Having to find a crystal or use a potion seems a very bad idea to me.
Edit: Hmm I'm not sure I'd agree about SquareEnix being too set in their ways, do XII and XIII not take a lot of flak because they tried to be different? (I love XII btw, think it's awesome) and making the latest DQ be on the DS and a multi-player game to boot was quite a departure. Surely the safe thing for FFXIV to do would be to go the WoW with a Final Fantasy skin route?
Thx a lot Persi, that's the best report i've seen on the game so far !
I just have one question about classes that wasn't mentionned: is there, like in FFXI, "synergy" classes that you unlock after lvling this or that class enough (like for example Paladin which was if i remember Fighter 20 and priest 10) ?
Other than that it looks sweet even if not complete yet
You're a Hardcore Survivor!
You not only survived the zombie apocalypse, but did it with style! Your mastery of zombie knowledge, survival tactics, and weaponry is nearly unmatched. Congratulations, for you are hardcore!
About the combat system, I see. I liked the active battle system in previous Square games (Chrono Trigger anyone?) and was really excited to hear that it was going to make it into this game. But the combat pacing, the waiting, points, bar, waiting; seeing it in videos and the descriptions make me think of something way less Street Fighter and much more (global cool down, let's reinvent the wheel). I like the presentation of it, but I think in a way this route makes for a great distraction- of the same sorty of combat we're used to.
Pugilist is pronounced "PEW-gull-ist" a sort of Mid-English annunciation for the Latin Pugil, which simply meant boxer. I think they gave the classes more direct to their ability such names so when customizing the classes with the system someone can say "Look I made a monk."
Lack of PVP is my only prelaunch gripe before I heard about the combat and the quest / leveling system as it is. Which I think are really key components to any game entering the MMO market.
The only metaphor I can come up with to explain what it looks like from a consumer who wasn't in beta point of view is: If EverQuest's combat was a cube made of clay. FFXIV's is clay shaped like Mike Tyson with a pipe cleaner stuck in the side of his head. And quite frankly, there's only more explaining to do after typing such a metaphor.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
@Kordac - Imported from Canada...?
MOVING ON.
1) Whole-heartedly agree about western companies just veiling the grinding. I love seeing people other than me say this. It makes my inner cheeky child happy.
Though I think spending nearly a week collecting yagudo necklaces in FFXI for Tenshodo fame was the pits. Exp grinding in a group in FFXI was actually fun though - if you enjoy minibosses and didn't play a DD class where you could afk-fight and still do marginally decent.
2) Currently I'm a bit concerned about the MP recovery issue too, but there have been a number of complaints about it. The aetheryte crystals really aren't that far from anywhere you'll be playing, but it's still annoying and a waste. Consequently, I use a pugilist skill with a 90 second recast for all my HP recovery needs, just a lot of the conjurer skills are incredibly useful for melee if they're soloing.
3) I loved FFXII's gameplay (minus getting smacked around by mobs that could ass-rape me with no save point in the past hour. I did not like that at all). Reason I haven't been able to finish it is because the storyline isn't immersive and had little character development. I'm not even sure why Vaan was there. It was sort of like reading a fantasy romance novel without smut where someone wrote themselves into the story to be a topless prettyboy with no personality. From what I hear, it'd be like Twilight.
4) I think the least safe thing for FFXIV to do would be to go the WoW route with an FF skin. A lot of other games have tried to attack that player base and usually fail to get more than a 100k globally, since they'll never have the player power behind WoW. Making something different focused on PvE isn't going to grab as many subscribers initially as those games do, but it'll likely have a longer lasting player base. People who are pissy about the lack of PvP have every right to say this isn't the game for them, since it isn't aimed at them to begin with.
Maybe the problem was that you assumed an FF game, let alone any (non 2d) MMO in this day and age, would play like Street Fighter?
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Grinding happens in any sort of game any human can play if you break it down like that Kordac. By your view, FFXIV would be a total grind. Leveling up each class so that one character can access each of the job's actions, by your definition, is an act of grinding in and of itself.
But on to the point quoted: 12 and 13 are auto play games. The story is there, 12's graphics are amazing for the PS2, and there's good stories in both to be told. The game play in either game is stripped. As simple as X was compared to previous game installments (X-2 being a noteable exception, because it was quite different and I figure a feeling ground) 12 lacked any real strategy. Also the progression was time consuming.
My fear for XIV is that it isn't exactly a WoW clone, but rather games that predate it. The quests sound terribly boring save for a gem here and there, and the fact that the leves are even more bare bones (do this) for no other reason than equipment gain.. I think it's more of a WoW clone than you'd be willing to allow yourself to see. That part alone seems like SE figured out "No one's reading the quests most of the time anyway, let's give them something to do every so often that's just a quick jip to a goal."
It's interesting, but there's nothing really ground breaking for this game other than Armory. And even it seems to have some baggage keeping it from being realized fully.
It's all too very safe feeling.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
Hey haibane - I think you might be confusing FFXI with another game. In FFXI you had to get a starter job to a minimum level of 30+ then do a quest to unlock each advanced job. Beginner jobs were Warrior, White Mage, etc...so you'd have to level one of those jobs up to 30 at least then do the quest to unlock Paladin. These advanced jobs weren't released in the game until the first expansion pack, so everything was playable at the first release. For non-JP players, though, the first advanced jobs were included with the first retail copy of the game since we had a later release date.
Currently FFXIV doesn't have a system like that included, and if it were included I'd guess it'd probably not be around until the first expansion pack. Everything is playable right from the get-go, so long as you have the weapon for the class.
I didn't think FFXIV would play like Street Fighter. I expected it to play like any other MMO, except with a global cooldown. But now I see not only is it a global cool down, but there's sub systems involved to activate other things. Where as the majority of the strategy seems to come from waiting, and waiting, and then eventually after enough time passes you'll meet the requirments to pull off an ability.. and then wait to coordinate the best time to do so.
I like strategy, but this doesn't that element to a MMORPG any better than WoW does.
In fact it's the same thing, but with more waiting.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
Watching a bar fill =/= watching a grey hotbar icon timer or radial change colors
Take your pick.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
It's not just a bar tho'. There's more to it.
I'd rather have neither, but if I have to have a cooldown I'd also rather it not be completly global either.
Slow is only good if there's a reason for it.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
Currently due to the MP limitations on the mage classes (which really needs to be adjusted before launch), those jobs would definitely be more "smack, wait, smack, wait, wait, smack, use spell cause you're about to die, smack". It's really boring unless you don't mind hauling your butt back to the aetheryte to get more MP, so I only leveled conjurer to 8 so I could get me some sexy buffs for melee jobs.
I've mainly played gladiator (mmm, shield) and pugilist so far for melee, and as long as you actually set skills and possibly played maybe one other class to level 4-6, you'll be spamming something nearly constantly by level 6. Of course, level 1 is the same old smack&wait since you have next to no skills. Also if you go into a battle without being in active mode about a second before using a skill, there will probably be more waiting since your action bar will be a bit on the empty side to begin with, but within 2 fights that's no longer an issue.
Some skills do have long recast timers - for example Second Wind which is a Pugilist skill that recovers some HP is 90 seconds if equipped on a non-Pugilist class, but for the most part due to HP recovering out of combat I haven't needed it more than every 90 seconds unless I made a mistake and attacked something that wanted to eat my first born son. If you only equip one TP move with melee classes, there will be a lot more waiting, but with two I was button mashing one almost constantly and you should have two by level 6 or can grab one from another class. I think the slowness of it really has a lot to do with how you set up your skills.
I'm honestly immune to blatant grinding since almost all quests I've seen in other games essentially ask you to grind then run back to the quest giver (minus blowing stuff up in WoW -- I approve of blowing stuff up), and I think guildleves are pretty fun though in the current beta they're limited a bit much. Also in guildleves you don't have to run back to where you started to get your sweet, sweet rewards - it's delivered upon completion which my lovely, lazy butt likes. Also it offers to teleport you back to camp after finishing.
Also the game isn't targeting the PvP market, so if that's a dealbreaker for you I can completely understand wanting to avoid FFXIV. The main focus is PvE, and based on FFXI's PvP, PvE will remain the focus even if a PvP system is added later on. Some people love it, some people hate it, some people just want to give it a try for something different - and it most definitely is different.
...Your metaphor made me think of shirtless Old Spice man building a kitchen with his bare hands (and a pipe cleaner) then baking me a cake, so I approve.
Excellent post, thank you! Really looking forward to XIV now!
Play: -
Played: FFXIV, WAR, Allods, Aion, AoC, DDO, EQ2, GW, Lotro, Tabula Rasa, Vanguard, WoW
You're wrong
to the OP: Thanks for the interesting read. A nice, well written article.
Good review and interesting information about a game that we are waiting.
I've been playing since UO and don't fear any strange or complicated UI, I had enough with that game concerning this problem. I've played many games you can imagine. The last one that i played seriously was WAR and now waiting for an inmersive game like XIV. I hope there are a lot of things to do, because i played around 9 hours a day in WAR.
There is enough content for people like me?
It is a question of fangs.
What global cooldown are you talking about? You can chain attacks together instantly as long as you have the stamina for it. For instance I can use Moonrise and immediately Heavy Thrust on a lancer, both attacks go off around the same time. There is no global cooldown.
At this point in the beta, we aren't sure. If you're playing with friends, definiately. Solo, about an hour. While a lot of the content is locked for us in beta, we are able to level as normal... And that part gets boring if you aren't leeching leves or doing your own in a group. Unless they change the cap on leves (and allow us to repeat them), I don't see the current system working and providing ample leveling gameplay outside of pure grinding. (And grinding is further capped by this random surplus exp debuff most of us have going on.)
While I do believe they will change around how Leves work, it's not all too amazing right now post Level 14.
@Eridanix - just to add to what Etra said (which as of now in the beta is pretty spot on), if you take part in crafting or gathering (well, not botany and mining since those are boring currently IMHO), you can easily be busy for hours. If not, as it is you'll be entertained for about 1 hour if you go solo, then jump into grind action. If you join a linkshell though you shouldn't have this problem.
Though I can't say for sure anything about release since Squenix has said the beta isn't there to test the content, and we only have 1/5 main cities and can't hop into the smaller towns in the area as of yet (or at least I can't
).
I didn't mean to imply that I believe FFXI had no grinding or FFXIV won't have any grinding as that would simply be wrong, sorry if that's the way it came across. What I meant more was I find it slightly amusing and a little hypocritical when players of games like WoW or WAR etc complain about how this game will be nothing but a grind when the games they are playing have lots of grinding themselves.
I don't mean to come across as a WoW 'hater' either, I had 3-4 good years in that game it's just Blizzard went in a direction I didn't want to follow plus I was simply bored of the formula. However I can also see the game for what it is as well and let me explain further. I quit WoW just after WOTLK launched, I got my Priest to 72 but I simply had no appetite for it any more but before that I was a pretty hardcore raider and I had level 70 Priest, Hunter, Mage and Druid as well as a 66 Paladin.
Log on an hour or 90 minutes before the raid to do my dailies which were the same thing everyday but hey, they are an easy way to grind gold. I did that more or less every evening for months to support my raiding. Grinding
We ran dungeons we'd beat months before simply to gear up for the next tier, hell even at the end of Black temple I was still running Karazhan weekly. I could do it my sleep and it had long since stopped being fun but it was by far the best source of badges so you just got on with it, we would run Zul Aman once a week to get people their war bears months after we had it beat. I think those sorts of things are in every bit as grindy as getting an XP party together and heading out for 2-3 hours was in FFXI. Grinding
What I meant to get across is that FFXIV will have grind, but so does every MMO it's just Blizzard are better at making the pill easier to swallow is all and like I said it's slightly amusing to hear people hark on about grind in eastern MMOs and they then go back and do their dailies again and clear Karazhan for the 100th time. I still played WoW even with that grind as my guild mates and some of the boss fights made it worth while even if I do think WoW lost the epic feeling that BWL had.
Besides sometimes I think grind has as much to do with what mood you are in as it does to the game mechanics, plenty of days I could happily grind away whilst listening to music and talking with friends, other days I simply can't be bothered.
Note to self; must learn to write shorter posts >_<