It's true. The community has grown to rely on guides to the point where it completely overshadows the need or want to explore, fail, and find on your own. You shouldn't always win. That's just a stale game.
I asked my brother if he ever just went out to search around and explore on wow like I had an ok time doing back a few years ago. Still it wasn't near as fun as doing it in L2, believe it or not. He told me there was no point... loads up his UI imbedded guide and proceeds to mindlessly level yet another boring character. It is mindless... just as mindless as hitting the same mob all day, except for some reason I feel way more connected with that.
I think it might be better if quests weren't completed for the sake of the reward and were completed for the sake of the adventure. There are still ways to do this.
I must say, and it's no surprise to those that know me, that I miss those old days when we did game with a pencil and notebook with respect to RPG games. Having to actually pay attention and use your brain to put together clues (and they truly were clues back then and not gps coordinates like you get today) to complete your quest is something I miss being hardcoded into the game.
I'd go so far to say they really aren't quests anymore. A quest is along the lines of the Arthurian Knights searching for the Holy Grail. They didn't have npcs with neon signs over their heads or auto routing. They didn't have a big X on their map that was 100% accurate (though they may have had maps with X's that were "ballpark").
I know its semantics but they should probably be renamed "Errands" now. Like when you first get your drivers license and your parent(s) send you to the grocery store to pick up a gallon of milk. You know exactly how to get there and exactly where the milk is. A quest would be more akin to a stranger asking you how to get to some obscure antique shop in your town that you had only heard of once and didn't know where it is.
You'll hear people say "But you can just not look at the web guides and turn off those gps features in game". Well, that's not always true for the latter. That really isn't the point, though. to me. The fact that they are there (the in-game stuff, not the guides) permeates throughout the whole game itself. Accessibility, that's the devil/culprit as I see it.
It's tough being a chess player in a checkers player dominated world.
Edit: Great article by the way. You ever make it down Dallas way and I'll buy you and the Mr. a beer or two. Just let me know when and where.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
I think that this trend towards quests that auto-complete just by sitting at the keyboard following instructions is inevitable simply because of the ever-expanding demographic and the ease of information exchange. There are more people who want to play to be entertained* rather than challenged, and it is faster and easier than ever to find the information needed to bypass a challenge.
As hard as it may be to imagine, there was a time when information about a game was exchanged purely within the game, and as a result, the most knowledgeable players were admired. If you needed to know something, it was a matter of figuring it out yourself or finding someone who knew a lot and asking them. With add-ons and online databases and even video walkthroughs now being the norm, that doesn't happen anymore. If you need to know something, you leave the game to find it out. There is not a shred of taboo or stigma associated with spoiling game content by reading about it first; it is all but required, so far as the rest of the server is concerned.
And the end result of all this is that game developers MUST assume that within a few days of content being added to the game, its every bit and byte will be exposed to the world and all its secrets laid bare. They must accept it as fact that 99% of the runs through this dungeon or that boss will be done by players who know everything there is to know about it. They do not have the luxury of building an instance where the fun is in "figuring out" how to get through it when an immeasurably small number of participants will not have it figured out before ever setting foot inside. If they are to make it challenging, the challenge must be in the application of information, not the noticing and gathering of information. If they are to make it fun, the fun must be in the execution, not the wondering or the planning.
*I should note that I don't fault people for valuing entertainment over challenge. People play games for different reasons, and I don't think there's any value in trying to label one motivation for gaming as being more noble or more pure than another.
Considering how much money Blizzard is making these days, more than some small countries, I wonder how long before A: They start printing their own currency, and B: They get a seat on the United Nations.
I wouldn't be surprised considering I'm in the state governed by Arnold Schwarznegger. lol
In my own opinion questing has become to easy. There's no real work involved anymore. In any MMO that had a decent quest lineup the fun was unraveling the content. Now WoW never started the lastest installment of the tourline questing I saw something similiar to it in SWG. Doing quests with a guide happens. Somebody on the interent will usually post a walkthru, that's a given. I've noticed with every quest it usually primes you for more content. Sending you to so-is-so area, finding a little over looked spot, opening up some alternate content, something. The reward was just the shiney little bauble to atttract you to it otherwise you would miss it or never seriously made an attempt on your way to "winning the game".
Players are becoming inherently lazy when it comes to content. The handouts are popping out right and left. MMO's are becoming, in a sense, no more than arcade games. Players want to reach the highest, best levels, gear, score, moose, whatever in the least amount of time. Anything that involves work doesn't get done. The last eight MMO's I've played I've noticed this exact behaviour. One topped-out toon teamed up with as many as can carry to run quests just to knock them down fast to get the reward that was idolized as "fanastic gear" for the level range. Double-edge sword here. I didn't mind at all that players teamed up to complete the quests, that the spirit of the game, it was the high lvl toon to walk them thru it to "knock it down" plucked my nerve. No work involved and we want it right now. The console gamer mentality is infecting MMO's in a big way. You saw the guided quest arrows and markers as far back as some old school Atari 2600 games.
I'm definitly 1 to use guide when I find myself stuck.
What game is the last screenshot from?
Kind of looks like Warhammer, but I'm not positive.
That doesn't look like Warhammer.
But what is it? It's bugging me to not know.
I thought it looked like Warhammer except for the bookmarks. But then again...I haven't played WAR since the month it was released, so....heh. Yeah, it's buggin' me too...lol
No it isn't Warhammer or Wow, unless they have added dual pistols to Wow since I quit playing. It looks to be one of the Gpotato games, like Flyff or Luna.
If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, riddle 'em with bullets
I'm definitly 1 to use guide when I find myself stuck.
What game is the last screenshot from?
Kind of looks like Warhammer, but I'm not positive.
That doesn't look like Warhammer.
But what is it? It's bugging me to not know.
I thought it looked like Warhammer except for the bookmarks. But then again...I haven't played WAR since the month it was released, so....heh. Yeah, it's buggin' me too...lol
No it isn't Warhammer or Wow, unless they have added dual pistols to Wow since I quit playing. It looks to be one of the Gpotato games, like Flyff or Luna.
The interface doesn't match Luna or FLYFF. It's not Bright Shadow or Mabinogi.
"If you're going to act like a noob, I'll treat you like one." -Caskio
Best example of current MMO questing, for those who remember it, Progress Quest.
It's almost scary how often I think of Progress Quest when responding to posts on these forums. I'm usually afraid to make the comparison because I think people either won't get the reference or will stop taking me seriously.
Best example of current MMO questing, for those who remember it, Progress Quest.
It's almost scary how often I think of Progress Quest when responding to posts on these forums. I'm usually afraid to make the comparison because I think people either won't get the reference or will stop taking me seriously.
Ok I've just stopped taking you seriouly.
Just kidding. I too remember Progress Quest. And I remember the similar wow parody they did called Virtual wow or something. A game where you controlled your virtual MMO player who was playing wow. It was all very zen.
If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, riddle 'em with bullets
Many of us who enjoy MMOs also have other things that demand our time, such as work and school, etc. I don't want to waste, yes waste, my time going around in a circle for hours looking for something that is barely distinguished from the surroundings. I appreciate the sentiment that you should just figure it out, but being frustrated and bored for hours on end is not fun.
This is more a game design issue than anything, having to wander around in circles frustrated because a location or item is indistinguishable is poor game design, if you have to use do some puzzle solving or find out the information by say asking different NPCs or using signposts would be more immersive to me than using GPS in fantasy game.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush, Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light, Company of Heroes II.
I'm definitly 1 to use guide when I find myself stuck.
What game is the last screenshot from?
Kind of looks like Warhammer, but I'm not positive.
That doesn't look like Warhammer.
But what is it? It's bugging me to not know.
I thought it looked like Warhammer except for the bookmarks. But then again...I haven't played WAR since the month it was released, so....heh. Yeah, it's buggin' me too...lol
No it isn't Warhammer or Wow, unless they have added dual pistols to Wow since I quit playing. It looks to be one of the Gpotato games, like Flyff or Luna.
The interface doesn't match Luna or FLYFF. It's not Bright Shadow or Mabinogi.
This is one of the reasons I love Asheron's Call. There are no markers over the heads of NPCs. No mark shows up on the map to say "Hey here is the place you need to go". You don't get to select NPCs and find out if they drop the trophy you need. It doesn't have a journal which automatically fills out the information for you. You have to actually do the work and figure it out.
Now of course there is the wikia site which has the walk throughs all the players have done, but you can ignore that since it isn't in your face like when the game hands it all to you. Occasionally you will get frustrated on a quest and give up by looking it up on the wikia, but that is a fairly good mix.
I hate the modern MMO age of holding your hand all the way through, how is that even fun?
As for when guides and FAQs started, I remember Sierra had a toll phone service you could call to get hints/walk throughs on games back in the early Kings Quest days. I remember my parents finally let me call it one day (it was like a buck a minute) when I had been stuck on one of the kings quest (which ever was the first one you played a female character). They told me I could get one hint on there, and here is how amazing the service was. I called up to find out about one thing and it had an option (there were options after options to get to what you needed to waste time and run up the bill) that was like "What secret can you do with item X" and being the young kid I was I thought "Man I never even thought about doing something with that!" so I chose that option. The service replied with "You can not do anything with item X" and that was the one hint I got to get, pretty anti-climactic for my parents finally allowing me to call that number.
Ahh the good old days of Sierra quest games. I loved ROGER WILCO SOOOOOO MUCH! I played allt he Police Quest and Space Quest....never really got into the Kings Quest though.
But ya when I got stuck.....I edited the game files so I could search for key phrases, like if I didn't know what the exact wording was to get a npc character to let me progress.
That helped me a couple times:)
Edit: Man I would so freaking love a modern Roger Wilco game. And oh man, I almost forgot Quest for Glory!
The Stranger: It's what people know about themselves inside that makes 'em afraid.
I'm definitly 1 to use guide when I find myself stuck.
What game is the last screenshot from?
Kind of looks like Warhammer, but I'm not positive.
That doesn't look like Warhammer.
But what is it? It's bugging me to not know.
I thought it looked like Warhammer except for the bookmarks. But then again...I haven't played WAR since the month it was released, so....heh. Yeah, it's buggin' me too...lol
No it isn't Warhammer or Wow, unless they have added dual pistols to Wow since I quit playing. It looks to be one of the Gpotato games, like Flyff or Luna.
The interface doesn't match Luna or FLYFF. It's not Bright Shadow or Mabinogi.
Looks like maybe Florensia.
Sorry for the quote nest from hell.
WOOT!! A million thanks for that! Wondering what game this was has been bugging the crap out of me all day.
If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, riddle 'em with bullets
I'm definitly 1 to use guide when I find myself stuck.
What game is the last screenshot from?
Kind of looks like Warhammer, but I'm not positive.
That doesn't look like Warhammer.
But what is it? It's bugging me to not know.
I thought it looked like Warhammer except for the bookmarks. But then again...I haven't played WAR since the month it was released, so....heh. Yeah, it's buggin' me too...lol
No it isn't Warhammer or Wow, unless they have added dual pistols to Wow since I quit playing. It looks to be one of the Gpotato games, like Flyff or Luna.
The interface doesn't match Luna or FLYFF. It's not Bright Shadow or Mabinogi.
Looks like maybe Florensia.
Sorry for the quote nest from hell.
Thats it for sure, it matches. Thanks for figuring that one out. There were a bunch of us trying to find that one.
"If you're going to act like a noob, I'll treat you like one." -Caskio
MMOs can stack up most of their content on the end-game, which makes sense, because it is where most of the players will be after a while. This makes new players want to reach the end-game as fast as they can, because it is where they will actually find groups - hence the use of guides.
I've played a couple of MMOs from day 1 and my experience from the period of time where everyone was still leveling up towards end-game was very different from joining an already running game - on the first weeks everyone is usually grouping together and exploring.
The only way I see to eliminate the rush to end-game is to make it available from the start (at that point it would make no sense to call it end-game, but you get the picture), which subscription based games won't do ever, because it would hurt their income.
I do agree that it can cheapen the experience, but people get immersed in story and lore that is interesting. It doesn't matter how good a ham sandwich is. It could be the best ham sandwich that ever existed, but if that is all you have to eat, then you'll get sick of it soon.
For instance, I love WoW. I liked it originally and I liked Northrend, and thought that BC was just plain stupid, so I didn't pay attention to anything in BC. I have no idea what they're doing there or why they are doing it, all I know is that I need to go through it to get to Northrend.
People like content and Lore that is different from everything else and not crappy. For instance, I really like the stories and lore in LOTRO, but I have no idea what the hell is going on in DDO and couldn't care less.
I really liked the lore and story in Fallen Earth until I tried to ride my mount to sector 2 and grew old and died waiting to get there.
Global MU has a story? I had no idea....
In other words, give me good content and interesting lore and I will pay attention to it and explore it, no matter where the damn line says to go.
On one hand you have gamers who demand more content, more exploration, deeper mysteries and harder to find rewards. They want involved quests that, in the case of MMOs, can take days, weeks, or months to complete (remember the epic quests in EQ? Or how about legendary items of all shapes and sizes in WoW?) This style of prolonged, exhaustive questing virtually requires a guide. After all, how many times have we sat down and farmed a mob (whether for a quest drop or for a loot drop), been at it for two hours then realized we're farming the wrong mob? Frustrating isn't it?
On the other hand, we have companies that are trying to develop intriguing in depth content with the surefire knowledge that the person playing is going to have a guide. Either they 'dumb down' the content to make the guide unnecessary - demeaning the content they create to the 'grind', or they try to 'beat the guide', making long, confusing, hard to explain scenarios that not only make the guide a virtual requirement, but feel designed to simply frustrate players rather than entertain them.
The core of the issue is this: how do they make games feel exciting and mysterious when most players read with a step-by-step walkthrough? Instead, why don't you allow yourself to experience the content as it is meant to be the first time. Does this mean that you shouldn't use a character development guide? Does this mean that you shouldn't try to get everything? No.
Instead, if you like a game, or if you're playing the game for a first time and trying to decide if you like it, just play it. Most games these days are made for multiple playthroughs anyways, with so much content they literally don't expect you to get it all the first time. So players should change their outlook - start the game knowing you're not going to get everything and that's ok, after all, you're planning to play it again!
~Cromethus Percera
Cromethus the Wanderer Xaivius Highmagnus Bladus NeverWaz
didn't read every comment but I'd like to add my view.
usually I try to stay away from guides and whatnot, i prefer being able to work out things on my own. But more and more I'm finding I like to keep a guide handy. I'll give an example of why.
In oblivion (yeah I know it's not a mmo, unfortunately) I was going through a mission "shadow over hackdirt" where you have to save someone from a town where something is going wrong and the citizens are starting to go crazy worshiping the deep ones and planning to do something to the girl for some reason.
After saving her i finish going around the town searching every home, checking all the underground tunnels raiding the church and everything and I still have no fucking idea whats going on and I havn't seen any of these deep ones that I keep hearing about. I've killed a few crazy villages the only unsolved clue I have left is a book. Unfortunately this book is written in daedric and I can't read daedric.
I'm one of those gamers who likes to be extremely thorough when going through things so even though the quest was done for me it seemed incomplete. So I whent to a guide first to look up the book as I figured if I can just get a translation of the book I should be right (would prefer if I could get it translated in game). Well after translating the book to english it's still complete jibberish,apperantly it's some sort of language called esperanto and I don't speak that language either so lets just jump straight to the end and get the translation from the guide. Well the translation is apperantly just a phrase from the esperanto website and has absolutely nothing to do with oblivion whatsoever.
As for the quest being incomplete apperantly it was based off a HP Lovecraft book which I unfortunately havn't heard of before, I've heard of some of his stuff but havn't had time to get into it yet. That really was all their was to the quest, there wasn't any deep ones, we couldn't do anymore with the village it just stopped there.... it feels like you've reached the end of the universe (within your game) and ran into a brick wall.
As a very curious individual I want to know everything, and often that means I need to go beyond the bounds of the game. I'm quite happy to spend hour reading away about some minute details of some seemingly small and insignificant part of the game. To me this adds to the game, the world seems more complete and more in deapth even if it doesn't have that deapth built into the game.
and the best resource to do these sort of things is not in game, lately infact it seems the designers are spreading it further and further out leaving the in game part even more and more incomplete. The only place we can really find all the information on the game in one place is these guides.
MMOs can stack up most of their content on the end-game, which makes sense, because it is where most of the players will be after a while. This makes new players want to reach the end-game as fast as they can, because it is where they will actually find groups - hence the use of guides.
I've played a couple of MMOs from day 1 and my experience from the period of time where everyone was still leveling up towards end-game was very different from joining an already running game - on the first weeks everyone is usually grouping together and exploring.
The only way I see to eliminate the rush to end-game is to make it available from the start (at that point it would make no sense to call it end-game, but you get the picture), which subscription based games won't do ever, because it would hurt their income.
I agree with this, but what I find strange is that even in games with no real endgame to speak of, people seem to want to rush to max level anyway. It's like something that's been inculcated in people, they must rush to max (paying no attention to anything along the way (hello Quest Helper!)), and all too frequently, they get there in under a month and then complain that there is nothing to do.
Weird part is, there is generally a wealth of stuff that they could have done, but ignored in the race to "endgame".
I'm an old-fashioned player, I'm not an elitist, or hardcore - but I love to explore. On my first character in any mmo (or rpg for that matter) I want to see everything, do everything and roam all over the map in case there's more stuff to do hiding out of plain sight. To me "endgame" isn't half as important as the journey - and I take my time with it. Let's face it, MMOs these days are not "hard" or overly complex, it's actually nice to come across something that has you head-scratching for a few minutes, it's nice to have to exercise the grey matter slightly. I don't use guides, but that's me, I like figuring stuff out for myself.
I don't hoard info, far from it, I'm in the help channel of the game I play almost constantly, and you won't catch me referring people to wikis, although the temptation is there when you've been asked the same question 15 times in the past hour. To go with what Jaime said - most of the questions asked could be answered by roaming around a bit and learning about the world. If players don't have the time for that, I don't mind helping out, but I do wonder sometimes how much "fun" there is in having everything handed to you on a plate. Different strokes for different folks - and who am I to judge?
To me, this is one of the reasons why you can ask any two players about their experiences in a game and get vastly different answers from them. People want different things from games, some want guides and quick progression, others like to enjoy the journey. Games have a really hard time providing what each camp wants.
There was always something satisfying in original EQ completing a quest without any help. Even back when you could get some short guides on forums, it was still satisfying due to the nature of the game. Modern mmos, nothing but arrows, script, and reward. Heck even EQ has quest functions now.
Remember when you gathered all those important ingredients in EQ and accidentally placed them in the quest giver's hands in the wrong order and lost them? Games were different back then...
Comments
It's true. The community has grown to rely on guides to the point where it completely overshadows the need or want to explore, fail, and find on your own. You shouldn't always win. That's just a stale game.
I asked my brother if he ever just went out to search around and explore on wow like I had an ok time doing back a few years ago. Still it wasn't near as fun as doing it in L2, believe it or not. He told me there was no point... loads up his UI imbedded guide and proceeds to mindlessly level yet another boring character. It is mindless... just as mindless as hitting the same mob all day, except for some reason I feel way more connected with that.
I think it might be better if quests weren't completed for the sake of the reward and were completed for the sake of the adventure. There are still ways to do this.
I must say, and it's no surprise to those that know me, that I miss those old days when we did game with a pencil and notebook with respect to RPG games. Having to actually pay attention and use your brain to put together clues (and they truly were clues back then and not gps coordinates like you get today) to complete your quest is something I miss being hardcoded into the game.
I'd go so far to say they really aren't quests anymore. A quest is along the lines of the Arthurian Knights searching for the Holy Grail. They didn't have npcs with neon signs over their heads or auto routing. They didn't have a big X on their map that was 100% accurate (though they may have had maps with X's that were "ballpark").
I know its semantics but they should probably be renamed "Errands" now. Like when you first get your drivers license and your parent(s) send you to the grocery store to pick up a gallon of milk. You know exactly how to get there and exactly where the milk is. A quest would be more akin to a stranger asking you how to get to some obscure antique shop in your town that you had only heard of once and didn't know where it is.
You'll hear people say "But you can just not look at the web guides and turn off those gps features in game". Well, that's not always true for the latter. That really isn't the point, though. to me. The fact that they are there (the in-game stuff, not the guides) permeates throughout the whole game itself. Accessibility, that's the devil/culprit as I see it.
It's tough being a chess player in a checkers player dominated world.
Edit: Great article by the way. You ever make it down Dallas way and I'll buy you and the Mr. a beer or two. Just let me know when and where.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Very good article.
I think that this trend towards quests that auto-complete just by sitting at the keyboard following instructions is inevitable simply because of the ever-expanding demographic and the ease of information exchange. There are more people who want to play to be entertained* rather than challenged, and it is faster and easier than ever to find the information needed to bypass a challenge.
As hard as it may be to imagine, there was a time when information about a game was exchanged purely within the game, and as a result, the most knowledgeable players were admired. If you needed to know something, it was a matter of figuring it out yourself or finding someone who knew a lot and asking them. With add-ons and online databases and even video walkthroughs now being the norm, that doesn't happen anymore. If you need to know something, you leave the game to find it out. There is not a shred of taboo or stigma associated with spoiling game content by reading about it first; it is all but required, so far as the rest of the server is concerned.
And the end result of all this is that game developers MUST assume that within a few days of content being added to the game, its every bit and byte will be exposed to the world and all its secrets laid bare. They must accept it as fact that 99% of the runs through this dungeon or that boss will be done by players who know everything there is to know about it. They do not have the luxury of building an instance where the fun is in "figuring out" how to get through it when an immeasurably small number of participants will not have it figured out before ever setting foot inside. If they are to make it challenging, the challenge must be in the application of information, not the noticing and gathering of information. If they are to make it fun, the fun must be in the execution, not the wondering or the planning.
*I should note that I don't fault people for valuing entertainment over challenge. People play games for different reasons, and I don't think there's any value in trying to label one motivation for gaming as being more noble or more pure than another.
I wouldn't be surprised considering I'm in the state governed by Arnold Schwarznegger. lol
Who's afraid of the big black bat?
Screenshot is from WoW.
In my own opinion questing has become to easy. There's no real work involved anymore. In any MMO that had a decent quest lineup the fun was unraveling the content. Now WoW never started the lastest installment of the tourline questing I saw something similiar to it in SWG. Doing quests with a guide happens. Somebody on the interent will usually post a walkthru, that's a given. I've noticed with every quest it usually primes you for more content. Sending you to so-is-so area, finding a little over looked spot, opening up some alternate content, something. The reward was just the shiney little bauble to atttract you to it otherwise you would miss it or never seriously made an attempt on your way to "winning the game".
Players are becoming inherently lazy when it comes to content. The handouts are popping out right and left. MMO's are becoming, in a sense, no more than arcade games. Players want to reach the highest, best levels, gear, score, moose, whatever in the least amount of time. Anything that involves work doesn't get done. The last eight MMO's I've played I've noticed this exact behaviour. One topped-out toon teamed up with as many as can carry to run quests just to knock them down fast to get the reward that was idolized as "fanastic gear" for the level range. Double-edge sword here. I didn't mind at all that players teamed up to complete the quests, that the spirit of the game, it was the high lvl toon to walk them thru it to "knock it down" plucked my nerve. No work involved and we want it right now. The console gamer mentality is infecting MMO's in a big way. You saw the guided quest arrows and markers as far back as some old school Atari 2600 games.
Best example of current MMO questing, for those who remember it, Progress Quest.
No it isn't Warhammer or Wow, unless they have added dual pistols to Wow since I quit playing. It looks to be one of the Gpotato games, like Flyff or Luna.
If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, riddle 'em with bullets
The interface doesn't match Luna or FLYFF. It's not Bright Shadow or Mabinogi.
"If you're going to act like a noob, I'll treat you like one." -Caskio
Adventurers wear fancy pants!!!
It's almost scary how often I think of Progress Quest when responding to posts on these forums. I'm usually afraid to make the comparison because I think people either won't get the reference or will stop taking me seriously.
Ok I've just stopped taking you seriouly.
Just kidding. I too remember Progress Quest. And I remember the similar wow parody they did called Virtual wow or something. A game where you controlled your virtual MMO player who was playing wow. It was all very zen.
If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, riddle 'em with bullets
If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, riddle 'em with bullets
Linear stories, mystery, multiplayer: pick any two.
(embedding spoilers into the UI is simply accepting the reality of this statement)
This is more a game design issue than anything, having to wander around in circles frustrated because a location or item is indistinguishable is poor game design, if you have to use do some puzzle solving or find out the information by say asking different NPCs or using signposts would be more immersive to me than using GPS in fantasy game.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.
Looks like maybe Florensia.
Sorry for the quote nest from hell.
Ahh the good old days of Sierra quest games. I loved ROGER WILCO SOOOOOO MUCH! I played allt he Police Quest and Space Quest....never really got into the Kings Quest though.
But ya when I got stuck.....I edited the game files so I could search for key phrases, like if I didn't know what the exact wording was to get a npc character to let me progress.
That helped me a couple times:)
Edit: Man I would so freaking love a modern Roger Wilco game. And oh man, I almost forgot Quest for Glory!
The Stranger: It's what people know about themselves inside that makes 'em afraid.
WOOT!! A million thanks for that! Wondering what game this was has been bugging the crap out of me all day.
If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, riddle 'em with bullets
Thats it for sure, it matches. Thanks for figuring that one out. There were a bunch of us trying to find that one.
"If you're going to act like a noob, I'll treat you like one." -Caskio
Adventurers wear fancy pants!!!
MMOs can stack up most of their content on the end-game, which makes sense, because it is where most of the players will be after a while. This makes new players want to reach the end-game as fast as they can, because it is where they will actually find groups - hence the use of guides.
I've played a couple of MMOs from day 1 and my experience from the period of time where everyone was still leveling up towards end-game was very different from joining an already running game - on the first weeks everyone is usually grouping together and exploring.
The only way I see to eliminate the rush to end-game is to make it available from the start (at that point it would make no sense to call it end-game, but you get the picture), which subscription based games won't do ever, because it would hurt their income.
I do agree that it can cheapen the experience, but people get immersed in story and lore that is interesting. It doesn't matter how good a ham sandwich is. It could be the best ham sandwich that ever existed, but if that is all you have to eat, then you'll get sick of it soon.
For instance, I love WoW. I liked it originally and I liked Northrend, and thought that BC was just plain stupid, so I didn't pay attention to anything in BC. I have no idea what they're doing there or why they are doing it, all I know is that I need to go through it to get to Northrend.
People like content and Lore that is different from everything else and not crappy. For instance, I really like the stories and lore in LOTRO, but I have no idea what the hell is going on in DDO and couldn't care less.
I really liked the lore and story in Fallen Earth until I tried to ride my mount to sector 2 and grew old and died waiting to get there.
Global MU has a story? I had no idea....
In other words, give me good content and interesting lore and I will pay attention to it and explore it, no matter where the damn line says to go.
A witty saying proves nothing.
-Voltaire
This issue is really a double edged sword.
On one hand you have gamers who demand more content, more exploration, deeper mysteries and harder to find rewards. They want involved quests that, in the case of MMOs, can take days, weeks, or months to complete (remember the epic quests in EQ? Or how about legendary items of all shapes and sizes in WoW?) This style of prolonged, exhaustive questing virtually requires a guide. After all, how many times have we sat down and farmed a mob (whether for a quest drop or for a loot drop), been at it for two hours then realized we're farming the wrong mob? Frustrating isn't it?
On the other hand, we have companies that are trying to develop intriguing in depth content with the surefire knowledge that the person playing is going to have a guide. Either they 'dumb down' the content to make the guide unnecessary - demeaning the content they create to the 'grind', or they try to 'beat the guide', making long, confusing, hard to explain scenarios that not only make the guide a virtual requirement, but feel designed to simply frustrate players rather than entertain them.
The core of the issue is this: how do they make games feel exciting and mysterious when most players read with a step-by-step walkthrough? Instead, why don't you allow yourself to experience the content as it is meant to be the first time. Does this mean that you shouldn't use a character development guide? Does this mean that you shouldn't try to get everything? No.
Instead, if you like a game, or if you're playing the game for a first time and trying to decide if you like it, just play it. Most games these days are made for multiple playthroughs anyways, with so much content they literally don't expect you to get it all the first time. So players should change their outlook - start the game knowing you're not going to get everything and that's ok, after all, you're planning to play it again!
~Cromethus Percera
Cromethus the Wanderer
Xaivius Highmagnus
Bladus NeverWaz
didn't read every comment but I'd like to add my view.
usually I try to stay away from guides and whatnot, i prefer being able to work out things on my own. But more and more I'm finding I like to keep a guide handy. I'll give an example of why.
In oblivion (yeah I know it's not a mmo, unfortunately) I was going through a mission "shadow over hackdirt" where you have to save someone from a town where something is going wrong and the citizens are starting to go crazy worshiping the deep ones and planning to do something to the girl for some reason.
After saving her i finish going around the town searching every home, checking all the underground tunnels raiding the church and everything and I still have no fucking idea whats going on and I havn't seen any of these deep ones that I keep hearing about. I've killed a few crazy villages the only unsolved clue I have left is a book. Unfortunately this book is written in daedric and I can't read daedric.
I'm one of those gamers who likes to be extremely thorough when going through things so even though the quest was done for me it seemed incomplete. So I whent to a guide first to look up the book as I figured if I can just get a translation of the book I should be right (would prefer if I could get it translated in game). Well after translating the book to english it's still complete jibberish,apperantly it's some sort of language called esperanto and I don't speak that language either so lets just jump straight to the end and get the translation from the guide. Well the translation is apperantly just a phrase from the esperanto website and has absolutely nothing to do with oblivion whatsoever.
As for the quest being incomplete apperantly it was based off a HP Lovecraft book which I unfortunately havn't heard of before, I've heard of some of his stuff but havn't had time to get into it yet. That really was all their was to the quest, there wasn't any deep ones, we couldn't do anymore with the village it just stopped there.... it feels like you've reached the end of the universe (within your game) and ran into a brick wall.
As a very curious individual I want to know everything, and often that means I need to go beyond the bounds of the game. I'm quite happy to spend hour reading away about some minute details of some seemingly small and insignificant part of the game. To me this adds to the game, the world seems more complete and more in deapth even if it doesn't have that deapth built into the game.
and the best resource to do these sort of things is not in game, lately infact it seems the designers are spreading it further and further out leaving the in game part even more and more incomplete. The only place we can really find all the information on the game in one place is these guides.
Into the breach meatbags
I agree with this, but what I find strange is that even in games with no real endgame to speak of, people seem to want to rush to max level anyway. It's like something that's been inculcated in people, they must rush to max (paying no attention to anything along the way (hello Quest Helper!)), and all too frequently, they get there in under a month and then complain that there is nothing to do.
Weird part is, there is generally a wealth of stuff that they could have done, but ignored in the race to "endgame".
I'm an old-fashioned player, I'm not an elitist, or hardcore - but I love to explore. On my first character in any mmo (or rpg for that matter) I want to see everything, do everything and roam all over the map in case there's more stuff to do hiding out of plain sight. To me "endgame" isn't half as important as the journey - and I take my time with it. Let's face it, MMOs these days are not "hard" or overly complex, it's actually nice to come across something that has you head-scratching for a few minutes, it's nice to have to exercise the grey matter slightly. I don't use guides, but that's me, I like figuring stuff out for myself.
I don't hoard info, far from it, I'm in the help channel of the game I play almost constantly, and you won't catch me referring people to wikis, although the temptation is there when you've been asked the same question 15 times in the past hour. To go with what Jaime said - most of the questions asked could be answered by roaming around a bit and learning about the world. If players don't have the time for that, I don't mind helping out, but I do wonder sometimes how much "fun" there is in having everything handed to you on a plate. Different strokes for different folks - and who am I to judge?
To me, this is one of the reasons why you can ask any two players about their experiences in a game and get vastly different answers from them. People want different things from games, some want guides and quick progression, others like to enjoy the journey. Games have a really hard time providing what each camp wants.
There was always something satisfying in original EQ completing a quest without any help. Even back when you could get some short guides on forums, it was still satisfying due to the nature of the game. Modern mmos, nothing but arrows, script, and reward. Heck even EQ has quest functions now.
Remember when you gathered all those important ingredients in EQ and accidentally placed them in the quest giver's hands in the wrong order and lost them? Games were different back then...