The vitriol aimed at perceived HC players is amazing. Really, it is.
A couple of you misunderstood what I meant by funneling players through the lvl 60 dungeons before allowing them on to Outland. My point isn't to piss people off or have some epeen competition. If you read any of my past posts on that topic, you'll know I hate the epeen game as much as anyone else.
My main thought behind my idea is that it would keep all those awesome lvl 60 dungeons relevant. The lore behind them. The storyline between them. Instead, Blizzard basically said, "we're going to kill off several dungeons and zones and make them ghost towns."
I agree that 40-man raids were a pain in the ass to not only run, but even put together. Make the lvl 60 dungeons easier if needed. Lower the number of people needed to raid it to 20 or even 10.
You could even allow people to go straight to Outland if they wanted, but make it worth their while to run the old dungeons. Some special item that would last you for a long while. Something. Anything to keep them relevant and fun. So instead of 4-6 hr dungeon runs, you could beat MC in a couple of hours tops. And so on. You could potentially beat all of the old lvl 60 end-game dungeons in a week, even with a PUG!
Current: None Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
Nothing killed WoW but in my opinion Blizzard dumbed down the game way to much by making everything soloable and Dungeon finder is just an excuse to not have to merge servers.
In some ways yes. But mostly they expanded on everything. Classes are far more complex then they were in vanilla. Raids are also far more scripted. Heroic 25mans are in most cases, Uld ToC and ICC, harder than vanilla raids. Where i do agree is that they shouldn't have to have heroics but everything should be hard right off the bat. Im all for casual raiders but seriously if the guild I was in while i played could do most heroic while being laid back and still progress at a good rate then everyone should. What really got me to quit myself are the newer generation of WoW players who know nothing about Vanilla and BC. Back before the dawn of heroic raids.
Also there are no dead servers so please don't use that excuse I saw the server list a few days ago at a friends there were a total of 5 low pop servers out of the ungodly amount blizzard has.
Classes are far more complex then they were in vanilla.
Well classes are far more easier and simple to play now than in vanilla.Reason they made it is kids wont whine much.
Example: im playing a hunter 5+years now from wow's release. The hunter's combat mechanics were likethis in vanilla.
1.When u were shooting someone with your bow and the opponent was running towards you u had to engage alot more in mellee fights simply cause the minimum range to shhoot someone from close distance was 10 yards .Now u can shoot arrows from 2-3 yards!
2.When someone was coming in melle range to your hunter the hunter if wanted to attack with his mellee weapons (moonggose bite,raptor strike or auto-attack) he had to actually click the button otherwise he wasnt attacking in mellee mode. This thing blizzard did really fucked up alot tactical combat cause for example in hunter vs hunter situation sometimes i desided to come close to the other hunter and hit him fast with moongoose +raptor strike and wingclip.In vanilla if the hunter wasnt fast enough in reactions he was loosing his attack on me and the game was rewarding me for that smart ,maneuvr/desicion. Now the hunter despice the fact he may be good or bad when u come close to him blizzard made it like this so it is auto-changing to auto-attack mellee mode.SUCKS!
So truth is that they made game far more easier to play for all classes and NOT FAR MORE COMPLEX.
The vitriol aimed at perceived HC players is amazing. Really, it is.
Sorry mate but surelly if you agree with the logic of the OP then iam sorry but more vitriol will come!
i dont know about you but argueing about a game that in its current form dont have(most of it)grind where both hardcore and casuals can play(Heroic and Non-heroic modes)and it doesnt need from you to invest your real life in it AND YOU prefer the 4 nights a week 5 hours per night only raiding...then sorry but in the real world people must work or must have a life
WoW was never hard...NEVER...in Vanilla aside from NAX40 where the gear you had was not on par with the raid the fights werent hard it was just funny and clever(now not having the gear NAXX ofcourse would also make it hard)the rest of the raids didnt had any special tactics(ofcourse there were a few bosses but you cant judge a raid by 1 or 2 bosses when the raid have 8)
in vanilla TIME=WIN thats the magic pill for the game!and to be able to know 1 or 2 things about your class
the current fomr of WoW is way better than vanilla but unfortunatelly the past is the past and nostalgia is nostalgia
for the rest of the post i disagree with you but thats ok thats a way of viewing things
Nothing killed WoW but in my opinion Blizzard dumbed down the game way to much by making everything soloable and Dungeon finder is just an excuse to not have to merge servers.
In some ways yes. But mostly they expanded on everything. Classes are far more complex then they were in vanilla. Raids are also far more scripted. Heroic 25mans are in most cases, Uld ToC and ICC, harder than vanilla raids. Where i do agree is that they shouldn't have to have heroics but everything should be hard right off the bat. Im all for casual raiders but seriously if the guild I was in while i played could do most heroic while being laid back and still progress at a good rate then everyone should. What really got me to quit myself are the newer generation of WoW players who know nothing about Vanilla and BC. Back before the dawn of heroic raids.
Also there are no dead servers so please don't use that excuse I saw the server list a few days ago at a friends there were a total of 5 low pop servers out of the ungodly amount blizzard has.
Classes are far more complex then they were in vanilla.
Well classes are far more easier and simple to play now than in vanilla.Reason they made it is kids wont whine much.
Example: im playing a hunter 5+years now from wow's release. The hunter's combat mechanics were likethis in vanilla.
1.When u were shooting someone with your bow and the opponent was running towards you u had to engage alot more in mellee fights simply cause the minimum range to shhoot someone from close distance was 10 yards .Now u can shoot arrows from 2-3 yards!
2.When someone was coming in melle range to your hunter the hunter if wanted to attack with his mellee weapons (moonggose bite,raptor strike or auto-attack) he had to actually click the button otherwise he wasnt attacking in mellee mode. This thing blizzard did really fucked up alot tactical combat cause for example in hunter vs hunter situation sometimes i desided to come close to the other hunter and hit him fast with moongoose +raptor strike and wingclip.In vanilla if the hunter wasnt fast enough in reactions he was loosing his attack on me and the game was rewarding me for that smart ,maneuvr/desicion. Now the hunter despice the fact he may be good or bad when u come close to him blizzard made it like this so it is auto-changing to auto-attack mellee mode.SUCKS!
So truth is that they made game far more easier to play for all classes and NOT FAR MORE COMPLEX.
while you were playing a tactical mmo game!the vast majority of hunters in vanilla were auto attacking!(afk hunters in molten core anyone?)so yes for the vast majority the game is more complex because now they actually hav more options in everything!
To the OP. . players like you (and previously me), "hard core" 4-5 hours a night etc. are why they changed it. I played about an hour a night. . not even some nights. .and guess what. . they got $15 a month from both of us. For me they would get that stretched out over a longer period of time with the same content. For some reason hard core players, and I was one, feel that they contribute more to the game or are more important to keep happy. At the end of the day (or month) you are just $15. . the same as everyone else. In the end you are a worse investment. I learnt this the hard way as well. That is why after a few years of game hopping I have decided just to play casually. I have realized, for now at least, that what I want doesn't exist. I haven't given up hope though.
I remember getting the key that opens the gate in alliance territory and thinking how cool it was . . .then they patched in flight path right to the area. . then a few more . . I haven't even played since they added the dungeon finder but do people even walk around anymore outside of the cities except to grind a few quests based on an in game guide system? The glory days are over. . the way we remember them
The problem is that developers used to design games based on what they would want to play. . now the focus is on the business model. Our days are over unless you look at an indy company - but then we complain about the lack of polish.
The title of the thread should be "What killed WoW for me and what made it more popular for the other 80% of the world that pays the same as the 20% who used to love it." That would be a long subject line though I feel your pain but our days are limited. When a company tries to make a game like you want they don't get the subscriber base (they get the 20%) yet they still have to pour tonnes of money into it to make it look and run as well as a game that has been out for 5 years.
I think its a no win. . Maybe 38 Studios or whatever.
The way I see it, #1 was the bigest problem with the game to begin with. Sure it's somethign of a personal accomplishment to have aquired all that top end gear but where you see it as a status symbol, I saw it as someone with little to no real life freinds, someone who probably worked a part time job and relied on others to support their lazy asses while they spent 20+ hours playing with electronic dolls. Basicly I saw it as a symbol, a symbol of a pathetic exisitence.
The problem with making desired content available to only a small percentage of players meant sure death. People who have lives were left to frustration. Frustration from not being able to play end game content. Content that was designed as the basic goal of the game in general. Blizzard had to change that in order to succeed.
#2, if a "40" man raid guild had to bench half of their players then they were either loaded with poor players, or just plain stupid because even a 2nd grader and tell that if you take a 40 person event and you have 40 or more people who would attend and make it a 20 person event, then you simply split into 2 raiding groups and can still keep your guild. The only problem with that split was that it meant the better players formed the first raiding group and the 2nd was left for the mediocre group. Once the mediocre players saw that their crutch was gone they no longer desired to raid becasue it was way easier to have a crutch and feel elite than it is to actually improve your skills to become an "a" lister. That's what killed guilds, elitist, give it to me now and make it so i don't have to work for it attitudes.
#3 I agree with. Killing off world PvP was just plain stupid. then they tried to bring it back with TBC and while it was fun for a little while, just like BG's it got boring and when WOTLK was launched it killed off TBC PvP content instantly.
In the end I think that the dumbing down for the instant gratification masses is what killed this game. That and time too. It's old period. It's run it's course. Every now and again I feel nostolgic for WoW, re-sub, log in, and after a few hours I remember why I stopped playing in the first place....boredom. I played that game for years, blowing off freinds, parties, and even on occasion work just to play it but after all the years of playing it there is nothing left. Everything that was exciting has been done and no cataclysm is going to change that.
#2, if a "40" man raid guild had to bench half of their players then they were either loaded with poor players, or just plain stupid because even a 2nd grader and tell that if you take a 40 person event and you have 40 or more people who would attend and make it a 20 person event, then you simply split into 2 raiding groups and can still keep your guild. The only problem with that split was that it meant the better players formed the first raiding group and the 2nd was left for the mediocre group. Once the mediocre players saw that their crutch was gone they no longer desired to raid becasue it was way easier to have a crutch and feel elite than it is to actually improve your skills to become an "a" lister. That's what killed guilds, elitist, give it to me now and make it so i don't have to work for it attitudes.
I would disagree with your take on this specific issue. Yes with a 40 man raid probably only 25 to 30 of them did all the real work but this flexibility in raid size allowed for guilds to do a lot of different things. First it allowed for a greater sense of community as more people could be brought along to a raid and taught various engagements and roles with in the raid. Instead of having a single main battle tank and maybe an off tank you could afford to spread the tanking around. On a few raids we decided to let a mage be the tank just to keep the healers sweating. With a larger raid force you have the ability to move people around and to grow them into the roles and into the guild.
With a 20 man raid this is much harder and with 10 man raids it is almost difficult and with the 5 man instances it is impossible and all of this consolidation leads to greater and greater emphasis on the 'leetness' of each individual player. If you have a solid 10 man team and the tank and healer decide to go out to dinner together you are pretty much in trouble for the evening. Unless of course you no longer want to focus on team play and just want to PuG every thing which yet even furthers distances players from each other and has them focus more on themselves than their community.
WoW has taken the MMO part of MMORPG and while leaving the world large and massive devolved the encounters into what are in effect "Chicken Nuggets" for the gamer.
1# Expansion packs always do that. If new content didn't provide better gear people wouldn't want it! Having the best gear from the content before the expac just makes it easier to progress through the new content. I'll admit that differences between TBC gear and vanilla gear were too huge and didn't reward previous end-gamers enough, but you said you left even before TBC went live, so it seems you wanted a free pass to 1337ness because of your previous achievements...
2# The 40 man raids were hard maintenance chores for a guild leader or officer, because at least 1 of 40 players ALWAYS has a problem and making everyone pull their own weight in a raid was a task like Sisyphus' (greek mythology guy that was compelled to roll a huge boulder up a hill, only to watch it roll back down, for eternity). 25 man raids were much more manageable, and 10 man raids even more so - 10 man raids on Ulduar, doing every boss in hard mode, were the most fun I had in WoW!
Also, 40 man raids may build a bigger community, but with fewer players the community is tighter. Just a matter of taste I guess.
3# WoW only has 2 opposing factions, so it's open world PvP was doomed from the start. Battlegrounds are controlled environments that don't allow for the 1st rule of open world PvP - the odds of a faction winning are directly proportional to the number of fighters it has on the battlefield.
More, vanilla WoW had class inbalances that actually broke the game for some - the class I played (druid) was on a raid to innervate the priests and little more. Class balance after TBC wasn't perfect, but at least all classes were playable.
I just hope that in 5 years we can look to WoW the same way we look to EQ today
What as the game that introduced MMOs to the uneducated masses and ruined the genre.....
it may get a tag as the way to get ludicrousley rich of of the back of muppets. But other than that it's a nothing game that adds little.
Says the egotistical hermit that lurk forums like this thinking that the small group of fanatical players here are the machine that move this genre. New flash! People that play mmos are far more educated about the game they play, at least enough to know what game they think deserves their hard earned cash. And the gaming media seems to be in agreement with them as WoW has earned more accolades than any other MMO in the history of MMOs....
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
I just hope that in 5 years we can look to WoW the same way we look to EQ today
What as the game that introduced MMOs to the uneducated masses and ruined the genre.....
it may get a tag as the way to get ludicrousley rich of of the back of muppets. But other than that it's a nothing game that adds little.
Says the egotistical hermit that lurk forums like this thinking that the small group of fanatical players here are the machine that move this genre. New flash! People that play mmos are far more educated about the game they play, at least enough to know what game they think deserves their hard earned cash. And the gaming media seems to be in agreement with them as WoW has earned more accolades than any other MMO in the history of MMOs....
That's because simple games like WoW and Farmvile sell well to simple people. There are many more simple people out there than people who desire depth or challenge. WoW was not innovative, WoW was not unique, its as bland and middle of the road as you can get, but you put the MASSIVE Blizzard marketing budget behind it and well, there it is. WoW has no unique gameplay features, just dumbed down EverQuest gameplay. EQ was a radical innovation and brought MMORPGs into the 3D universe. People will remember EQ as the game that started MMOs in 3D (while UO will be remembered as the first real big MMO). WoW will be remembered as the shift towards the farmvile/non gamer crowd. A collection of mini games rather than a full fledged MMO.
I just hope that in 5 years we can look to WoW the same way we look to EQ today
What as the game that introduced MMOs to the uneducated masses and ruined the genre.....
it may get a tag as the way to get ludicrousley rich of of the back of muppets. But other than that it's a nothing game that adds little.
Says the egotistical hermit that lurk forums like this thinking that the small group of fanatical players here are the machine that move this genre. New flash! People that play mmos are far more educated about the game they play, at least enough to know what game they think deserves their hard earned cash. And the gaming media seems to be in agreement with them as WoW has earned more accolades than any other MMO in the history of MMOs....
Not getting into a debate about WOW but in general would you care to prove that the current mmo consumer base is more educated about games? The prevalence of cash shop games and substandard products would point to the opposite of what you are saying, which leads onto the second point..
You say hard earned cash, well in fairness the current trend of 'cash for ig points' points more to an era of easy credit and a consumer base that lives on easy credit and has no idea of the value of money. Besides a significant portion of people who play the predominantly casual mmos on the market are teenages and kids.. who have no sense of hard earned cash lets face it lol.
Whilst I said I wouldn't at the start, I just have to bite, the Ford Mondeo has more won accolades then the Bugatti Veyron, but I know which one i'd rather have.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Originally posted by antonatsis Originally posted by Nizur The vitriol aimed at perceived HC players is amazing. Really, it is.
Sorry mate but surelly if you agree with the logic of the OP then iam sorry but more vitriol will come! i dont know about you but argueing about a game that in its current form dont have(most of it)grind where both hardcore and casuals can play(Heroic and Non-heroic modes)and it doesnt need from you to invest your real life in it AND YOU prefer the 4 nights a week 5 hours per night only raiding...then sorry but in the real world people must work or must have a life WoW was never hard...NEVER...in Vanilla aside from NAX40 where the gear you had was not on par with the raid the fights werent hard it was just funny and clever(now not having the gear NAXX ofcourse would also make it hard)the rest of the raids didnt had any special tactics(ofcourse there were a few bosses but you cant judge a raid by 1 or 2 bosses when the raid have 8) in vanilla TIME=WIN thats the magic pill for the game!and to be able to know 1 or 2 things about your class the current fomr of WoW is way better than vanilla but unfortunatelly the past is the past and nostalgia is nostalgia for the rest of the post i disagree with you but thats ok thats a way of viewing things
That's just it though. I agree with the sentiment of the OP, and his general idea, but am approaching it a bit differently. And I disagree that the game is dead.
Saying WoW has no grind is funny too. There is a grind, it's just not the same grind it was before. Now you have achievement grinds, rep grinds, gear grinds, BG grinds. It's there still, just in a different form. What Blizzard did was break apart the old dungeon grind into multiple, easy-to-chew grinds. Where before the grind was lengthy, drawn out and many times could not be done in a single sitting, they now have made it so you can get an achievement or two in one sitting. Run that dungeon and possible get your gear piece in one sitting. And so on.
I do NOT prefer the 4 nights a week/5 hrs per night. Please read what I wrote.
I think what we have here is different perceptions of the old game. What I miss isn't the epeen contest, the nightly raiding and the dungeon grind. What I miss (and a lot of other perceived HC players) is the sense of adventure, teamwork and achievement. All three of those are either watered-down or gone in the current version of WoW.
Current: None Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
I just hope that in 5 years we can look to WoW the same way we look to EQ today
What as the game that introduced MMOs to the uneducated masses and ruined the genre.....
it may get a tag as the way to get ludicrousley rich of of the back of muppets. But other than that it's a nothing game that adds little.
Says the egotistical hermit that lurk forums like this thinking that the small group of fanatical players here are the machine that move this genre. New flash! People that play mmos are far more educated about the game they play, at least enough to know what game they think deserves their hard earned cash. And the gaming media seems to be in agreement with them as WoW has earned more accolades than any other MMO in the history of MMOs....
That's because simple games like WoW and Farmvile sell well to simple people. There are many more simple people out there than people who desire depth or challenge. WoW was not innovative, WoW was not unique, its as bland and middle of the road as you can get, but you put the MASSIVE Blizzard marketing budget behind it and well, there it is. WoW has no unique gameplay features, just dumbed down EverQuest gameplay. EQ was a radical innovation and brought MMORPGs into the 3D universe. People will remember EQ as the game that started MMOs in 3D (while UO will be remembered as the first real big MMO). WoW will be remembered as the shift towards the farmvile/non gamer crowd. A collection of mini games rather than a full fledged MMO.
Such nonsense but if it feeds your ego so be it, Sony was a much bigger than Blizzard when WoW was released and Sony had a large MMO user base to feed off, and what happened? WoW destoryed EQ2 on word of mouth alone, that is what powered WoW's popularity and still does. Most of what WoW is it took from the Diablo games not EQ. Play WoW some time it might just surprise you.
I started playing WOW shortly after it came out and played up until a few weeks before the first x-pac was released.
I was a "hardcore" player... a MT in a large guild... I raided 4 nights a week, 4-5 hours a night... I was one of the 1st on my realm to get full T2 back when it actually meant something...
When the x-pac was announced I knew it was the end of the game... Sure it would take it a while to die, but the glory days were over... and I was right...
Here's what went wrong...
#1. Serious MMO players devote lots of time to character development... grinding, leveling, and acquiring gear... Its a status symbol... It's like having a BMW or Mercedes in the real world... You see someone with leet raid gear and you know they've "paid their dues"... Lots of nights raiding 4-5 hours a night...
When the x-pac was announced, Blizzard decided to allow existing players to obtain vastly better gear without 1st finishing the existing content. That was a MAJOR slap in the face to raiders and proved that Blizzard had absolutely no respect for the time and effort that dedicated players had invested in character development.
It would have been really easy to have required existing players to finish Naxx to get a "key" that allowed them access to x-pac areas where they could then "unlock" level 61 and starting leveling again.
They could have prevented level 60 players from grouping with level 61+ level players to prevent higher level players from "rushing" lower level players thru existing content.
If Blizzard has done this, then you would still have players running Molten Core, Oxynia, BWL, etc and serious players wouldn't have been raped of 2 years of character development.
#2. 40 man raids were epic. Changing 40 man instances to 20 man was incredibly stupid. For starters, it destroyed untold thousands of raid guilds... Bench 1/2 your 40 man raid guild you've been playing with for 2 years... Yeah, right...
It was also bad because it destroyed the continuity of the game... Another slap in the face to serious players... If a player wants to get where I am in the game, I want them to have to do what I had to do to get there... Otherwise, there is no character development... No standard by which players are judged...
#3. Battlegrounds suck... Anyone remember Southshore? So what if it got a little laggy at times... It was real... and it was fun...
So there you have it... Now I'm sure some would say... But casual players would have never bought the x-pac if they had to finish 40 man Naxx to unlock level 61 and new areas... Yeah they would have... Sure, you might have to slightly "nerf" the difficulty but that had been going on all along. IF Blizzard had added some goodies that everyone wanted like better crafting, player housing (done right), player stores with NPC traders to sell your goods... (take crafted items off the AH), guild forts, ships, etc in the x-pac areas, then the game would have become even more popular instead of slowing dying like it is now.
WOW could have been the start of something incredible... Instead, they tried to implement virtual Socialism... Let's make everyone equal... In the end, they just ruined the game...
I remember the night I logged off forever shortly before the 1st x-pac came out... I was been so into the game for so long... The guild has literally become a band of brothers. The xpac is going to rule they said... No it won't... it will ruin the game I said... You'll be back they said! No I won't I said... It was good while it lasted... and I still miss it to this day, but I don't miss what it became... As the years went by my old guildmates quit the game... In the end, most admited I had been right.
So that's the bad news... Wow was ruined...
The good news is, another company could easily "get it right"... The original WOW model works... Change the plot, update the graphics, state up front that you will respect the time that serious players invest in character development, and you would have a winner.
You make the mistake that every other player out there is the same as you, we aren't, and as such the game has changed over time to reflect the many different play styles out there.
If Blizzard had kept to the same formulae many casual players would still be in the same position they where when the game released, always looking up at the HC raiders, cooing over all the epics and wishing they where like them.
Blizzard changed it so that everyone was able to get a piece of the action, sure it was going to piss off your 5% of HC players but heck your making the other 95% very happy, and those 95% are what guide the decisions Blizzard make.
If Blizzard one day creates a set of servers with strict rule sets then I'm sure they would be very popular with those that left years ago, SoE has done the same with the Progression servers which always proved extremely popular with old time players.
Man.... That's really pathetic... Maybe we should give everyone in the Military a Medal of Honor while we are at it.
Hey, I've got an idea... let's just confiscate everything from the top 5% (the rich) and give it to the other 95%! You know, just kind of spread the wealth around! They'll vote for us forever!
But I guess when the game is owned by French Socialists, what can you expect...
I just hope that in 5 years we can look to WoW the same way we look to EQ today
What as the game that introduced MMOs to the uneducated masses and ruined the genre.....
it may get a tag as the way to get ludicrousley rich of of the back of muppets. But other than that it's a nothing game that adds little.
Says the egotistical hermit that lurk forums like this thinking that the small group of fanatical players here are the machine that move this genre. New flash! People that play mmos are far more educated about the game they play, at least enough to know what game they think deserves their hard earned cash. And the gaming media seems to be in agreement with them as WoW has earned more accolades than any other MMO in the history of MMOs....
Not getting into a debate about WOW but in general would you care to prove that the current mmo consumer base is more educated about games? The prevalence of cash shop games and substandard products would point to the opposite of what you are saying, which leads onto the second point..
You say hard earned cash, well in fairness the current trend of 'cash for ig points' points more to an era of easy credit and a consumer base that lives on easy credit and has no idea of the value of money. Besides a significant portion of people who play the predominantly casual mmos on the market are teenages and kids.. who have no sense of hard earned cash lets face it lol.
Whilst I said I wouldn't at the start, I just have to bite, the Ford Mondeo has more won accolades then the Bugatti Veyron, but I know which one i'd rather have.
Who said games? I said the GAME they play....go ahead read it again and you will see this is a cold hard fact. People that play a certain game...whatever game it may be are more knowledgrable about it. That means they are actively learning about the game they play. And that proves that as long as WoW throws more content out there for their players, their players learn more. It's not like they have to unlearn everything they've learn just to learn something new.
And what's more aggrogant to assume, that people have earned the right to spend their money or these are kids given money to spend on frivilous things.....then my good friend all games are frivilous by nature.....
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
I started playing WOW shortly after it came out and played up until a few weeks before the first x-pac was released.
I was a "hardcore" player... a MT in a large guild... I raided 4 nights a week, 4-5 hours a night... I was one of the 1st on my realm to get full T2 back when it actually meant something...
When the x-pac was announced I knew it was the end of the game... Sure it would take it a while to die, but the glory days were over... and I was right...
Here's what went wrong...
#1. Serious MMO players devote lots of time to character development... grinding, leveling, and acquiring gear... Its a status symbol... It's like having a BMW or Mercedes in the real world... You see someone with leet raid gear and you know they've "paid their dues"... Lots of nights raiding 4-5 hours a night...
When the x-pac was announced, Blizzard decided to allow existing players to obtain vastly better gear without 1st finishing the existing content. That was a MAJOR slap in the face to raiders and proved that Blizzard had absolutely no respect for the time and effort that dedicated players had invested in character development.
It would have been really easy to have required existing players to finish Naxx to get a "key" that allowed them access to x-pac areas where they could then "unlock" level 61 and starting leveling again.
They could have prevented level 60 players from grouping with level 61+ level players to prevent higher level players from "rushing" lower level players thru existing content.
If Blizzard has done this, then you would still have players running Molten Core, Oxynia, BWL, etc and serious players wouldn't have been raped of 2 years of character development.
#2. 40 man raids were epic. Changing 40 man instances to 20 man was incredibly stupid. For starters, it destroyed untold thousands of raid guilds... Bench 1/2 your 40 man raid guild you've been playing with for 2 years... Yeah, right...
It was also bad because it destroyed the continuity of the game... Another slap in the face to serious players... If a player wants to get where I am in the game, I want them to have to do what I had to do to get there... Otherwise, there is no character development... No standard by which players are judged...
#3. Battlegrounds suck... Anyone remember Southshore? So what if it got a little laggy at times... It was real... and it was fun...
So there you have it... Now I'm sure some would say... But casual players would have never bought the x-pac if they had to finish 40 man Naxx to unlock level 61 and new areas... Yeah they would have... Sure, you might have to slightly "nerf" the difficulty but that had been going on all along. IF Blizzard had added some goodies that everyone wanted like better crafting, player housing (done right), player stores with NPC traders to sell your goods... (take crafted items off the AH), guild forts, ships, etc in the x-pac areas, then the game would have become even more popular instead of slowing dying like it is now.
WOW could have been the start of something incredible... Instead, they tried to implement virtual Socialism... Let's make everyone equal... In the end, they just ruined the game...
I remember the night I logged off forever shortly before the 1st x-pac came out... I was been so into the game for so long... The guild has literally become a band of brothers. The xpac is going to rule they said... No it won't... it will ruin the game I said... You'll be back they said! No I won't I said... It was good while it lasted... and I still miss it to this day, but I don't miss what it became... As the years went by my old guildmates quit the game... In the end, most admited I had been right.
So that's the bad news... Wow was ruined...
The good news is, another company could easily "get it right"... The original WOW model works... Change the plot, update the graphics, state up front that you will respect the time that serious players invest in character development, and you would have a winner.
I couldn't disagree more. Adding raiding to any game is what destroys the community. You are essentially advocating forced raiding. There is no reason to force the other 90% of you population to do something they find tedious or lack the time to do. Radiers still get all the best gear and all the worst personalities so it evens out. I never understood the enjoyment of raiding and I have tried it several times on several servers but to me aside from seeing so different areas there was no great satisfaction unless I was one of those who need them to satisfy epeen issues. Also comparing it to taxing the rich is way off base. People who don't do raids are the people who have the jobs that pay the taxes. If anything hardcore raiding is there for the students and unemployed.
I just hope that in 5 years we can look to WoW the same way we look to EQ today
What as the game that introduced MMOs to the uneducated masses and ruined the genre.....
it may get a tag as the way to get ludicrousley rich of of the back of muppets. But other than that it's a nothing game that adds little.
Says the egotistical hermit that lurk forums like this thinking that the small group of fanatical players here are the machine that move this genre. New flash! People that play mmos are far more educated about the game they play, at least enough to know what game they think deserves their hard earned cash. And the gaming media seems to be in agreement with them as WoW has earned more accolades than any other MMO in the history of MMOs....
Not getting into a debate about WOW but in general would you care to prove that the current mmo consumer base is more educated about games? The prevalence of cash shop games and substandard products would point to the opposite of what you are saying, which leads onto the second point..
You say hard earned cash, well in fairness the current trend of 'cash for ig points' points more to an era of easy credit and a consumer base that lives on easy credit and has no idea of the value of money. Besides a significant portion of people who play the predominantly casual mmos on the market are teenages and kids.. who have no sense of hard earned cash lets face it lol.
Whilst I said I wouldn't at the start, I just have to bite, the Ford Mondeo has more won accolades then the Bugatti Veyron, but I know which one i'd rather have.
Who said games? I said the GAME they play....go ahead read it again and you will see this is a cold hard fact. People that play a certain game...whatever game it may be are more knowledgrable about it. That means they are actively learning about the game they play. And that proves that as long as WoW throws more content out there for their players, their players learn more. It's not like they have to unlearn everything they've learn just to learn something new.
And what's more aggrogant to assume, that people have earned the right to spend their money or these are kids given money to spend on frivilous things.....then my good friend all games are frivilous by nature.....
I've read it again and once again it looks like an opinion, not a cold hard fact. Sorry to disillusion you there.
It's not arrogant at all, I proffered it as an opinion, not as a 'cold hard fact', there is a clear dilineation in that, which you should perhaps take on board.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
The way I see it, #1 was the bigest problem with the game to begin with. Sure it's somethign of a personal accomplishment to have aquired all that top end gear but where you see it as a status symbol, I saw it as someone with little to no real life freinds, someone who probably worked a part time job and relied on others to support their lazy asses while they spent 20+ hours playing with electronic dolls. Basicly I saw it as a symbol, a symbol of a pathetic exisitence.
Guess what dude... You could same about top players in any game... Golf, Tennis, Fishing, etc... In otherwords, anyone who suceeds at anything sucks because you don't have the willpower to suceed at anything. The Pony League player with a room full of trophies? Might at well be raid epics... Just another game... Crawl back under the bridge troll...
The way I see it, #1 was the bigest problem with the game to begin with. Sure it's somethign of a personal accomplishment to have aquired all that top end gear but where you see it as a status symbol, I saw it as someone with little to no real life freinds, someone who probably worked a part time job and relied on others to support their lazy asses while they spent 20+ hours playing with electronic dolls. Basicly I saw it as a symbol, a symbol of a pathetic exisitence.
Guess what dude... You could same about top players in any game... Golf, Tennis, Fishing, etc... In otherwords, anyone who suceeds at anything sucks because you don't have the willpower to suceed at anything. The Pony League player with a room full of trophies? Might at well be raid epics... Just another game... Crawl back under the bridge troll...
There is no comparison that can be made to people who can make a living competing on a professional level and those who shirk responsibility to play video games. You can't put your achievement score on a job application, and anyone looking to hire someone definetly will not be impressed with a gearscore.
I have succumb to the call of WoW and was in the group of those I talk about. During that time I saw friends lose jobs, girlfriends, and even wives over something that in the end will mean nothing. Being a veteran of that pathetic existence I now see that sort of activity for what it is...irresponsible. I'm sorry if you take umbrage but that is my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
I just hope that in 5 years we can look to WoW the same way we look to EQ today
What as the game that introduced MMOs to the uneducated masses and ruined the genre.....
it may get a tag as the way to get ludicrousley rich of of the back of muppets. But other than that it's a nothing game that adds little.
Says the egotistical hermit that lurk forums like this thinking that the small group of fanatical players here are the machine that move this genre. New flash! People that play mmos are far more educated about the game they play, at least enough to know what game they think deserves their hard earned cash. And the gaming media seems to be in agreement with them as WoW has earned more accolades than any other MMO in the history of MMOs....
Not getting into a debate about WOW but in general would you care to prove that the current mmo consumer base is more educated about games? The prevalence of cash shop games and substandard products would point to the opposite of what you are saying, which leads onto the second point..
You say hard earned cash, well in fairness the current trend of 'cash for ig points' points more to an era of easy credit and a consumer base that lives on easy credit and has no idea of the value of money. Besides a significant portion of people who play the predominantly casual mmos on the market are teenages and kids.. who have no sense of hard earned cash lets face it lol.
Whilst I said I wouldn't at the start, I just have to bite, the Ford Mondeo has more won accolades then the Bugatti Veyron, but I know which one i'd rather have.
Who said games? I said the GAME they play....go ahead read it again and you will see this is a cold hard fact. People that play a certain game...whatever game it may be are more knowledgrable about it. That means they are actively learning about the game they play. And that proves that as long as WoW throws more content out there for their players, their players learn more. It's not like they have to unlearn everything they've learn just to learn something new.
And what's more aggrogant to assume, that people have earned the right to spend their money or these are kids given money to spend on frivilous things.....then my good friend all games are frivilous by nature.....
I've read it again and once again it looks like an opinion, not a cold hard fact. Sorry to disillusion you there.
It's not arrogant at all, I proffered it as an opinion, not as a 'cold hard fact', there is a clear dilineation in that, which you should perhaps take on board.
The "cold hard fact" is that I SAID: People who play MMOs are far more educated about the game they play. I'll even point it out to you both times (look for my words in red) No where did I say: People who play MMOs are far more educated about games. A point you're for some reason nitpicking at and trying to debunk.
Why in the world would I say that and I didn't have any proof to back it up? Isn't it obvious that if a person plays a game they will in FACT know more about it? I mean as compared to knowing more about something they don't play! This is commonsense is it not? Why must you and this tool infested forum be so inclined to keep believing that idoits and children play WoW and long time MMO fans shun it with every mention of the name. When in FACT it's been proven time and time again that hard earning mmo vets DO play WoW and enjoy doing so.
It's not because it's easy, it's not because it's pc/mac friendly, but it sure as hell could be that it continues blowing down houses that the little elite piggies keep trying to build up and hide in.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Comments
The vitriol aimed at perceived HC players is amazing. Really, it is.
A couple of you misunderstood what I meant by funneling players through the lvl 60 dungeons before allowing them on to Outland. My point isn't to piss people off or have some epeen competition. If you read any of my past posts on that topic, you'll know I hate the epeen game as much as anyone else.
My main thought behind my idea is that it would keep all those awesome lvl 60 dungeons relevant. The lore behind them. The storyline between them. Instead, Blizzard basically said, "we're going to kill off several dungeons and zones and make them ghost towns."
I agree that 40-man raids were a pain in the ass to not only run, but even put together. Make the lvl 60 dungeons easier if needed. Lower the number of people needed to raid it to 20 or even 10.
You could even allow people to go straight to Outland if they wanted, but make it worth their while to run the old dungeons. Some special item that would last you for a long while. Something. Anything to keep them relevant and fun. So instead of 4-6 hr dungeon runs, you could beat MC in a couple of hours tops. And so on. You could potentially beat all of the old lvl 60 end-game dungeons in a week, even with a PUG!
Current: None
Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR
Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu
Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
Battlegrounds killed the game for me
Classes are far more complex then they were in vanilla.
Well classes are far more easier and simple to play now than in vanilla.Reason they made it is kids wont whine much.
Example: im playing a hunter 5+years now from wow's release. The hunter's combat mechanics were likethis in vanilla.
1.When u were shooting someone with your bow and the opponent was running towards you u had to engage alot more in mellee fights simply cause the minimum range to shhoot someone from close distance was 10 yards .Now u can shoot arrows from 2-3 yards!
2.When someone was coming in melle range to your hunter the hunter if wanted to attack with his mellee weapons (moonggose bite,raptor strike or auto-attack) he had to actually click the button otherwise he wasnt attacking in mellee mode. This thing blizzard did really fucked up alot tactical combat cause for example in hunter vs hunter situation sometimes i desided to come close to the other hunter and hit him fast with moongoose +raptor strike and wingclip.In vanilla if the hunter wasnt fast enough in reactions he was loosing his attack on me and the game was rewarding me for that smart ,maneuvr/desicion. Now the hunter despice the fact he may be good or bad when u come close to him blizzard made it like this so it is auto-changing to auto-attack mellee mode.SUCKS!
So truth is that they made game far more easier to play for all classes and NOT FAR MORE COMPLEX.
Sorry mate but surelly if you agree with the logic of the OP then iam sorry but more vitriol will come!
i dont know about you but argueing about a game that in its current form dont have(most of it)grind where both hardcore and casuals can play(Heroic and Non-heroic modes)and it doesnt need from you to invest your real life in it AND YOU prefer the 4 nights a week 5 hours per night only raiding...then sorry but in the real world people must work or must have a life
WoW was never hard...NEVER...in Vanilla aside from NAX40 where the gear you had was not on par with the raid the fights werent hard it was just funny and clever(now not having the gear NAXX ofcourse would also make it hard)the rest of the raids didnt had any special tactics(ofcourse there were a few bosses but you cant judge a raid by 1 or 2 bosses when the raid have 8)
in vanilla TIME=WIN thats the magic pill for the game!and to be able to know 1 or 2 things about your class
the current fomr of WoW is way better than vanilla but unfortunatelly the past is the past and nostalgia is nostalgia
for the rest of the post i disagree with you but thats ok thats a way of viewing things
while you were playing a tactical mmo game!the vast majority of hunters in vanilla were auto attacking!(afk hunters in molten core anyone?)so yes for the vast majority the game is more complex because now they actually hav more options in everything!
To the OP. . players like you (and previously me), "hard core" 4-5 hours a night etc. are why they changed it. I played about an hour a night. . not even some nights. .and guess what. . they got $15 a month from both of us. For me they would get that stretched out over a longer period of time with the same content. For some reason hard core players, and I was one, feel that they contribute more to the game or are more important to keep happy. At the end of the day (or month) you are just $15. . the same as everyone else. In the end you are a worse investment. I learnt this the hard way as well. That is why after a few years of game hopping I have decided just to play casually. I have realized, for now at least, that what I want doesn't exist. I haven't given up hope though.
I remember getting the key that opens the gate in alliance territory and thinking how cool it was . . .then they patched in flight path right to the area. . then a few more . . I haven't even played since they added the dungeon finder but do people even walk around anymore outside of the cities except to grind a few quests based on an in game guide system? The glory days are over. . the way we remember them
The problem is that developers used to design games based on what they would want to play. . now the focus is on the business model. Our days are over unless you look at an indy company - but then we complain about the lack of polish.
The title of the thread should be "What killed WoW for me and what made it more popular for the other 80% of the world that pays the same as the 20% who used to love it." That would be a long subject line though
I feel your pain but our days are limited. When a company tries to make a game like you want they don't get the subscriber base (they get the 20%) yet they still have to pour tonnes of money into it to make it look and run as well as a game that has been out for 5 years.
I think its a no win. . Maybe 38 Studios or whatever.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
The way I see it, #1 was the bigest problem with the game to begin with. Sure it's somethign of a personal accomplishment to have aquired all that top end gear but where you see it as a status symbol, I saw it as someone with little to no real life freinds, someone who probably worked a part time job and relied on others to support their lazy asses while they spent 20+ hours playing with electronic dolls. Basicly I saw it as a symbol, a symbol of a pathetic exisitence.
The problem with making desired content available to only a small percentage of players meant sure death. People who have lives were left to frustration. Frustration from not being able to play end game content. Content that was designed as the basic goal of the game in general. Blizzard had to change that in order to succeed.
#2, if a "40" man raid guild had to bench half of their players then they were either loaded with poor players, or just plain stupid because even a 2nd grader and tell that if you take a 40 person event and you have 40 or more people who would attend and make it a 20 person event, then you simply split into 2 raiding groups and can still keep your guild. The only problem with that split was that it meant the better players formed the first raiding group and the 2nd was left for the mediocre group. Once the mediocre players saw that their crutch was gone they no longer desired to raid becasue it was way easier to have a crutch and feel elite than it is to actually improve your skills to become an "a" lister. That's what killed guilds, elitist, give it to me now and make it so i don't have to work for it attitudes.
#3 I agree with. Killing off world PvP was just plain stupid. then they tried to bring it back with TBC and while it was fun for a little while, just like BG's it got boring and when WOTLK was launched it killed off TBC PvP content instantly.
In the end I think that the dumbing down for the instant gratification masses is what killed this game. That and time too. It's old period. It's run it's course. Every now and again I feel nostolgic for WoW, re-sub, log in, and after a few hours I remember why I stopped playing in the first place....boredom. I played that game for years, blowing off freinds, parties, and even on occasion work just to play it but after all the years of playing it there is nothing left. Everything that was exciting has been done and no cataclysm is going to change that.
I would disagree with your take on this specific issue. Yes with a 40 man raid probably only 25 to 30 of them did all the real work but this flexibility in raid size allowed for guilds to do a lot of different things. First it allowed for a greater sense of community as more people could be brought along to a raid and taught various engagements and roles with in the raid. Instead of having a single main battle tank and maybe an off tank you could afford to spread the tanking around. On a few raids we decided to let a mage be the tank just to keep the healers sweating. With a larger raid force you have the ability to move people around and to grow them into the roles and into the guild.
With a 20 man raid this is much harder and with 10 man raids it is almost difficult and with the 5 man instances it is impossible and all of this consolidation leads to greater and greater emphasis on the 'leetness' of each individual player. If you have a solid 10 man team and the tank and healer decide to go out to dinner together you are pretty much in trouble for the evening. Unless of course you no longer want to focus on team play and just want to PuG every thing which yet even furthers distances players from each other and has them focus more on themselves than their community.
WoW has taken the MMO part of MMORPG and while leaving the world large and massive devolved the encounters into what are in effect "Chicken Nuggets" for the gamer.
I don't agree with the OP on anything!
1# Expansion packs always do that. If new content didn't provide better gear people wouldn't want it! Having the best gear from the content before the expac just makes it easier to progress through the new content. I'll admit that differences between TBC gear and vanilla gear were too huge and didn't reward previous end-gamers enough, but you said you left even before TBC went live, so it seems you wanted a free pass to 1337ness because of your previous achievements...
2# The 40 man raids were hard maintenance chores for a guild leader or officer, because at least 1 of 40 players ALWAYS has a problem and making everyone pull their own weight in a raid was a task like Sisyphus' (greek mythology guy that was compelled to roll a huge boulder up a hill, only to watch it roll back down, for eternity). 25 man raids were much more manageable, and 10 man raids even more so - 10 man raids on Ulduar, doing every boss in hard mode, were the most fun I had in WoW!
Also, 40 man raids may build a bigger community, but with fewer players the community is tighter. Just a matter of taste I guess.
3# WoW only has 2 opposing factions, so it's open world PvP was doomed from the start. Battlegrounds are controlled environments that don't allow for the 1st rule of open world PvP - the odds of a faction winning are directly proportional to the number of fighters it has on the battlefield.
More, vanilla WoW had class inbalances that actually broke the game for some - the class I played (druid) was on a raid to innervate the priests and little more. Class balance after TBC wasn't perfect, but at least all classes were playable.
What as the game that introduced MMOs to the uneducated masses and ruined the genre.....
it may get a tag as the way to get ludicrousley rich of of the back of muppets. But other than that it's a nothing game that adds little.
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Says the egotistical hermit that lurk forums like this thinking that the small group of fanatical players here are the machine that move this genre. New flash! People that play mmos are far more educated about the game they play, at least enough to know what game they think deserves their hard earned cash. And the gaming media seems to be in agreement with them as WoW has earned more accolades than any other MMO in the history of MMOs....
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
That's because simple games like WoW and Farmvile sell well to simple people. There are many more simple people out there than people who desire depth or challenge. WoW was not innovative, WoW was not unique, its as bland and middle of the road as you can get, but you put the MASSIVE Blizzard marketing budget behind it and well, there it is. WoW has no unique gameplay features, just dumbed down EverQuest gameplay. EQ was a radical innovation and brought MMORPGs into the 3D universe. People will remember EQ as the game that started MMOs in 3D (while UO will be remembered as the first real big MMO). WoW will be remembered as the shift towards the farmvile/non gamer crowd. A collection of mini games rather than a full fledged MMO.
Not getting into a debate about WOW but in general would you care to prove that the current mmo consumer base is more educated about games? The prevalence of cash shop games and substandard products would point to the opposite of what you are saying, which leads onto the second point..
You say hard earned cash, well in fairness the current trend of 'cash for ig points' points more to an era of easy credit and a consumer base that lives on easy credit and has no idea of the value of money. Besides a significant portion of people who play the predominantly casual mmos on the market are teenages and kids.. who have no sense of hard earned cash lets face it lol.
Whilst I said I wouldn't at the start, I just have to bite, the Ford Mondeo has more won accolades then the Bugatti Veyron, but I know which one i'd rather have.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
i dont know about you but argueing about a game that in its current form dont have(most of it)grind where both hardcore and casuals can play(Heroic and Non-heroic modes)and it doesnt need from you to invest your real life in it AND YOU prefer the 4 nights a week 5 hours per night only raiding...then sorry but in the real world people must work or must have a life
WoW was never hard...NEVER...in Vanilla aside from NAX40 where the gear you had was not on par with the raid the fights werent hard it was just funny and clever(now not having the gear NAXX ofcourse would also make it hard)the rest of the raids didnt had any special tactics(ofcourse there were a few bosses but you cant judge a raid by 1 or 2 bosses when the raid have 8)
in vanilla TIME=WIN thats the magic pill for the game!and to be able to know 1 or 2 things about your class
the current fomr of WoW is way better than vanilla but unfortunatelly the past is the past and nostalgia is nostalgia
for the rest of the post i disagree with you but thats ok thats a way of viewing things
That's just it though. I agree with the sentiment of the OP, and his general idea, but am approaching it a bit differently. And I disagree that the game is dead.
Saying WoW has no grind is funny too. There is a grind, it's just not the same grind it was before. Now you have achievement grinds, rep grinds, gear grinds, BG grinds. It's there still, just in a different form. What Blizzard did was break apart the old dungeon grind into multiple, easy-to-chew grinds. Where before the grind was lengthy, drawn out and many times could not be done in a single sitting, they now have made it so you can get an achievement or two in one sitting. Run that dungeon and possible get your gear piece in one sitting. And so on.
I do NOT prefer the 4 nights a week/5 hrs per night. Please read what I wrote.
I think what we have here is different perceptions of the old game. What I miss isn't the epeen contest, the nightly raiding and the dungeon grind. What I miss (and a lot of other perceived HC players) is the sense of adventure, teamwork and achievement. All three of those are either watered-down or gone in the current version of WoW.
Current: None
Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR
Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu
Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
Such nonsense but if it feeds your ego so be it, Sony was a much bigger than Blizzard when WoW was released and Sony had a large MMO user base to feed off, and what happened? WoW destoryed EQ2 on word of mouth alone, that is what powered WoW's popularity and still does. Most of what WoW is it took from the Diablo games not EQ. Play WoW some time it might just surprise you.
Who said games? I said the GAME they play....go ahead read it again and you will see this is a cold hard fact. People that play a certain game...whatever game it may be are more knowledgrable about it. That means they are actively learning about the game they play. And that proves that as long as WoW throws more content out there for their players, their players learn more. It's not like they have to unlearn everything they've learn just to learn something new.
And what's more aggrogant to assume, that people have earned the right to spend their money or these are kids given money to spend on frivilous things.....then my good friend all games are frivilous by nature.....
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
If WoW failed, I hope my business fails.
Just because YOU don't like something doesn't mean it has failed.
Well, thats where you are wrong. Here on MMORPG.com, thats exacly what it means.
I've read it again and once again it looks like an opinion, not a cold hard fact. Sorry to disillusion you there.
It's not arrogant at all, I proffered it as an opinion, not as a 'cold hard fact', there is a clear dilineation in that, which you should perhaps take on board.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
There is no comparison that can be made to people who can make a living competing on a professional level and those who shirk responsibility to play video games. You can't put your achievement score on a job application, and anyone looking to hire someone definetly will not be impressed with a gearscore.
I have succumb to the call of WoW and was in the group of those I talk about. During that time I saw friends lose jobs, girlfriends, and even wives over something that in the end will mean nothing. Being a veteran of that pathetic existence I now see that sort of activity for what it is...irresponsible. I'm sorry if you take umbrage but that is my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
lack of world PVP in my opinion
The "cold hard fact" is that I SAID: People who play MMOs are far more educated about the game they play. I'll even point it out to you both times (look for my words in red) No where did I say: People who play MMOs are far more educated about games. A point you're for some reason nitpicking at and trying to debunk.
Why in the world would I say that and I didn't have any proof to back it up? Isn't it obvious that if a person plays a game they will in FACT know more about it? I mean as compared to knowing more about something they don't play! This is commonsense is it not? Why must you and this tool infested forum be so inclined to keep believing that idoits and children play WoW and long time MMO fans shun it with every mention of the name. When in FACT it's been proven time and time again that hard earning mmo vets DO play WoW and enjoy doing so.
It's not because it's easy, it's not because it's pc/mac friendly, but it sure as hell could be that it continues blowing down houses that the little elite piggies keep trying to build up and hide in.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."