How do you define endgame?

Disdena

 

As various topics are debated, one issue that keeps coming up is that of hardcore players and their rush to get to the endgame. To some people, the endgame is the only thing that really matters in an MMORPG — if you play the game for years, you're going to spend the bulk of your time at endgame so everything leading up to endgame is just preparation. For others, the desire to get to the endgame quickly can be interpreted as a sign of laziness, entitlement, or greed.

I don't want this to be a thread about whether the hardcore subset of the playerbase is intrinsicly good or bad, but rather a discussion about what we really mean when we say "endgame". I suspect that many people have different definitions of endgame, and that a surprising number of us haven't got a clue how to define it.

 

• When your level is equal to the highest level that can be reached

This is probably the simplest and most straightforward definition, but also the least suitable for games with a system of progression that isn't taken straight from EQ/DikuMUD. In FFXI or XIV, each job/class has its own level, so are you at endgame once one class has reached the cap or not until all classes are capped? This definition is insufficient to answer that question. It also dodges the merit point issue. In FFXI, you can keep doing exactly the same thing that got you from 79 to 80 for a very very long time and continue to see advancement from it; your experience gains you merit points that give you access to new spells and abilities, increased stats, and/or higher skill caps. This is virtually identical to continuing to "level up", except that the little number next to your name doesn't go up and you never have to move on to fighting harder enemies. Some possibilities are:

• When defeating a challenging monster at random does not result in any form of non-monetary character advancement

This slaps a "pre-endgame" label on a merit point system; as long as you're still killing mobs for experience, you have not yet reached the endgame by definition. Some would find this definition too restrictive, while others might be more willing to agree with it. The "at random" part of this definition leaves room for faction grinding or any other system where you have to subject yourself to grinding specific content for a specific goal. That specific content would be considered part of the endgame content.

• When there are no in-game barriers to participating in any of the game's content

If there is any game content that you are still prohibited from participating in, you're not at endgame. (Naturally content that you can't ever participate in, like dungeons exclusive to the opposite faction, do not count.) Once you have unlocked everything, either by finishing prerequisite quests, maxing your level, or reaching the necessary amount of faction/fame, you're at endgame. Note that this definition technically allows you to enter endgame before you reach max level, if low levels do not prohibit you from participating in that content. In Classic EQ, for example, you did not have to be level 50 to fight the de facto final bosses Vox and Nagafen or to enter the Plane of Hate.

• When there are no social barriers to participating in any of the game's content

Even if the game mechanics allow you to participate in certain content, the people you want to accompany may not be so keen on the idea. They may politely suggest that prior to attempting that content, you should take it upon yourself to improve your character's combat viability by way of some measurement other than just your level, such as your equipment (zomgwtflern2gearscorenub*kick*). Thus, when the community as a whole accepts your readiness to participate in anything the game has to offer, at that point you are at endgame. By this definition, you wouldn't be at WoW's endgame until you are appropriately geared to join any raid.

• When there is no notable power difference between you and a theoretical "ideal" character who has accomplished and acquired everything possible

The most restrictive and also most subjective definition. In essense, you've reached endgame when you are "almost done with the game", and then endgame itself is the process of chasing after the last little bits of perfection for completion's sake.

 

Part of the reason for making this post is to illustrate just how inadequate a purely one-number system is when it comes to defining endgame or even just defining how far your character has advanced compared to other characters. Whether it's because of multiple classes, multiple tiers of epic equipment, long prerequisite quests hiding further barriers to entry, or dozens of additional abilities and perks that can be earned beyond max level, there are so many other ways to advance beyond the max level that it's a wonder anyone is stuck using it as a border line between "progressing through the game" and "at the end of the game."

So I'm curious to hear what other definitions people might have in general, and of course what your thoughts are regarding FFXIV's endgame specifically. In particular, do you think that physical level will be a major indicator of endgame readiness or will it only require capping a single class? As far as I know there is still no news on what the class caps and physical cap will be upon release, but I expect that maxing one or even two classes will still leave you with a ways to go before the physical level cap. As I don't have a good grasp on how much your physical level matters at the end, it's anyone's guess whether you will absolutely need to cap it before you will be able to handle the hardest content in the game.

Skieve

 

Now seriously, imo it changes from player to player depending on their circunstances.

For me endgame starts when you can start doing hard stuf in groups, usually @ cap level or close, for upgrading your gear(or capping it)  aiming to increase your capabilities past max lv.. Or rather just to go threw the content of the game that  you werent strong enough to do before.Also when you start preparing for upcoming battles  with items/ strategies etc, instead of just exping .Thats end game imo on a pve game.

Also when you stop doing thins for yourself and you look back and help out your budies who arent strong enough that as well ismy idea of endgame.

edit: for the case of ffxiv in particular is just pointless to discuss its "endgame content " atm, there is not even normal content to begin with, if is anythin near what ffxi had , it will be damn good, since in my personal opinion , it has the best end game and content any other mmo  i have played had.

AIMonster

I think you are overcomplicating the definition.  Endgame is simply a point you reach when you can do all of the hardest content currently in the game or you are at the highest level of accomplishment in a particular area of the game (PvE raiding for example) than the majority of players.  If you take a game like Everquest for example, which the main focus of endgame was PvE raiding, at one point in time being able to do Vox/Nagafen was considered endgame.  Planes were released and the endgame shifted to that.  Then Kunark came out and bosses like Venril Sathir and Trakanon became the endgame.  After a while guilds started acquiring enough keys to shift the endgame focus to Veeshan's Peak.  It went on and on, but endgame changed almost on a monthly basis.

Endgame could be PvE raiding/events, PvP, or level oriented (getting a Matt's cap in FFXI would be considered endgame on the leveling end of things).  Basically any area you can measure your accomplishments.

svann

Its very easy to set your own definitions then prove why they make no sense.  Of all your definitions I think the first one is closest to the mark.  Quibble about the details but when you stop progressing to higher levels most people consider it end game.  The fact that you can level an "alt" without starting a new character is a quibble imo.  If you are still leveling and feeling like it progresses you then you arent at end game.

URNotMega

Endgame - The point in a game where gameplay focus completely changes from what you were supposed to be doing since the beginning of the game because you cannot do that anymore.

Note that I said "supposed to be doing."  Endgame would be best defined by the developers' intent on gameplay, not necessarily on how you played the game.  Endgame for counter-strike wouldn't be "get h4x and slaughter everyone" just because you decided to do that after playing legit a couple years.

Some examples:

WoW: You've spent 80 levels leveling.  This could have been done through grinding, questing, group questing, group instances, whatever it takes to get experience.  What now?  The focus switches to getting gear so you can do harder instances so you can get better gear so you can do harder instances.  There's also the PvP endgame, which focuses on getting gear so you can PvP better so you can get better gear so you can PvP better.

FFVII: You've completed the storyline, what now?  Grind to hit max level, fight Weapons.

Half-Life 2 - Single Player: There is no endgame.

Half-Life 2 - Multi Player, Counter-Strike, Team fortress 2, etc: There is no end game.  Your focus is exactly the same from the time you start playing to the time you stop playing.

Starcraft 2 - Single Player:  None.  There's some replay value due to the achievements and RPG elements, but the devs intend on you doing that stuff from the beginning.  There's nothing to do that's significantly different from before once you've completed the storyline.

Starcraft 2 - Multi Player: None.  Same as HL2 multi.

Diablo 2 - I'd have to say d2 endgame starts around level 80.  It includes farming, doing boss runs for experience, trading.  Though you can get to 80 in a matter of hours (or minutes), I'd also consider rushing end game.

Oblivion - Not sure how to define endgame here.  You can do whatever from the start and that was the devs' intent.

Fable 1 & 2 - Maybe acquiring all the stuff you haven't acquired yet?  Not much of an end game really, at least not much more than SC2 single player.

 

Seems to me that endgame could very well only fit games that have some sort of measured progression, mostly just RPGs, and not every RPG has an end game... some just stop.

I have no comments on ffxiv's end game =P  I imagine it'll be a lot like WoW?  Once the main storyline ends, I guess there will be raids and what not?  I never got to ffxi's endgame.

birdycephon

Endgame for me, its when I've played the game for so long, that I find myself not doing much of anything besides just logging in to check who's on, or just playing the auction house. At that point, it's probably best to save some money and unsubscribe.

If a company knows what's good for the game, they'd try to stay clear of endgame content, and keep the story progressing indefinitely, and just keeping people interested for as long as possible.

Endgame = unsubscribe

DeserttFoxx

My end game is when ive hit cap, and all im focusing on now is getting items or maxing out my trade skills.

 

Pretty cut and dry for me.

LastChime

When you have nothing better to do than look cool standing around Aht Urghan/Dalaraan/Sanctum. It's really the part they never show in the movie after the credits are finished rolling and everyone is living happily ever-after, doesn't make for good cinema.

Lowdos

Originally posted by birdycephon

Endgame for me, its when I've played the game for so long, that I find myself not doing much of anything besides just logging in to check who's on, or just playing the auction house. At that point, it's probably best to save some money and unsubscribe.

If a company knows what's good for the game, they'd try to stay clear of endgame content, and keep the story progressing indefinitely, and just keeping people interested for as long as possible.

Endgame = unsubscribe

 This is why FFXI was so special, it was able to do both things (an abundance of end-game activities and progressive, on-going story branches) and  also why I have such high hopes for FFXIV.

Flesh the game out with enough interesting content that feels pertinent to the world / lore, and then the endgame won't become so one-dimensional.

Palebane

To me, endgame is when I turn the power off.

Voltlives

End game is where you have finally achieved the max level and start working on tightening up the substructures of your character that might have been lacking.  It's when you can work on becoming one with a group of like minded individuals toward larger scale content.  It is when, unfortunitly, the masses start to bitch about lack of content and being confined to too many restraints.  I hope, this doesn't happen here but time will tell.

 

END OF LINE_

~V

MumboJumbo

End game is either:

1. Max level (reflects the limit of your avatar's growth that actually has impact on the original story)

2. The End of the story/content is reached and finally overcome/defeated to reach a conclusion or resolution

3. You, the player, decide that the game no longer feels dynamic or a journey or fun.

4. The devs have some left-over content for players afflicted by all the above to do specially to keep them playing.

Emoqqboy

Is this question directed generally or with regards to FFXIV?

If its a general question, i would consider endgame fine tuning of character. Pushing your character and getting to know its limitations in the game world as well as its limits PVE/PVP wise. Its kind of ironic in a way, but in the context of most of today's mmo, the "Start" of the game is actually "Endgame", as its only when you reach endgame that you can first see everything your character is capable of doing, and what else you can do to improve its job at carrying out its role.

Wolfenpride

Depends on the game for me..generally i've reached end-game after making cap level and having done every dungeon and completed all major quest/story lines, however in a game like say Dark Age of Camelot, end game for me revolved around continuing to RvR.

Since FXIV is PvE-oriented, I imagine it'll just be about finishing dungeons I haven't done and perhaps the story line missions. While I could decide to level all of the classes if I wanted to, i'm usually not concerned about making the best character I possibly can or gathering the best gear, so i probably won't bother with that.

End-game = end of game for me, so hopefully FFXIV has plenty to do up till that point.

Grunty

End game for me is when I become bored of the game. So far that means I've never reached the maximum level. Doubt I ever will.

choujiofkono

     There isn't supposed to be an "End Game" in a MMO.  That is a concept propagated by ignorant players and clever Devs who don't want to develope more content for their game.  They create an "End Game" system of revolving doors and loot chasing that enables them to keep the subs being paid without actually putting out any real developement from the sub profits.  AKA pocketing your subs. 

     Then they develope content and distribute it as pay-for items or "expansion" packs.  Pretty good scheme. 

     MMO's are supposed to be continually developed over time with sub fees and whatever levels or skills/items there are in the game which make up the actual gameplay are supposed to evolve with that money.  Why the younger generation of gamers allow the current trend of double/triple dipping of profits from players I'll never know.  Just easy targets I suppose. 

     So people asking for better "End Game" are clearly missing the whole point of a subscription MMO.  They are creating the demand for a system that provides a quick climb to the "End Game" and are forgetting the journey to the end is supposed to be the fun part. 

     Currently there is only one game that understands this concept.  The only game that people feel compelled to turn off leveling completely to better experience all of the lore and world and missions/stories.  EQ2.  Certainly not the best performing game out there but definitely the biggest bang for your buck as far as an all engrossing experience and as much lore/depth as you can possible have.  There are several levels where people habitually turn off leveling for weeks because there is so much to see and do. 

Ekibiogami

As something I dont care about. If the developers made it quick enough for me to make it there. the game wasent worth my time to play.

KogaDrake

The "end game" is clearly just the current most difricult content avaiable in the game.  it is a concept that sould constantly be evolving in an MMO untill the game has reached a final level cap at witch point the end game still evolves by adding new content tath would then be included in the end game material

 

most main stream MMO raise the level cap once a yr or so lately adding and changing what is endgame and also add some smaller additions to the endgame every so often via smaller patches.

 

now with FFXI it was different as the game was at lv75 cap when it came out to NA users, and was never increased thus the "endgame" just got bigger with each expansion and due to new gear and such what was endgame became easier and the newer released endgame was more of the true endgame  (look at dynamis or sky gods, or king HNM's they once where the top endgame, but they eventrially became jokes to most players as new harder endgame material came out)