Hah! Japanese people are the most xenophobic you'll ever meet! They aren't just favoring Jp players, they downright prefer them! "Foreigner's" are just an after thought for profit.
Not to mention the huge ego of the company, which designed hit RPG video games and defined the genre of video game for the past 20 years without consulting the NA or EU markets. They merely translated it, patented it, sold it, made extra money just doing whatever they wanted. Why should they listen to the NA and EU market now? They could make a bestselling videogame with the American Flag burning on the cover and STILL have that game become a "Classic console RPG."
They only feign interest in our "foreign" opinions to make us feel good, while the bulk of the developer-to-player conversation is Japanese-to-Japanese on Japanese websites, or Japanese conventions, or Japanese magezines.... The German interview was merely the bone the rest of us "foreigners" have to chew on...
/end of SE rant
Lol. Eh... sorry, mate, but I could've replaced every time that 'Japanese' was used with 'American' and your statement would have been equally true, maybe even more
Actually, err, no. Edeus is quite right in my opinion.
Different peoples have different takes on "foreigners", and it's true some countries do have, in average, better knowledge of the rest of the world than others. However, when it comes to the appreciation of others' cultures, and the will to experience it, let alone bring it back home, you won't find many societies more "xenophobic" than the japanese, or put more mildly, a tendancy to dismiss foreign ideas as being "maybe good for them but not for us".
Granted, this is a feeling you might encounter in many countries, especially the ones with strong cultures, be it the french, the american or the chinese, but nowhere in the world is it as extreme as it is in Japan. That is a fact, often shared by japanese themselves--the few ones that left the island.
Okay, in my cursory understanding of Japanese culture, and my interactions with Japanese players on FFXI (that were fluent in English as well as Japanese, there aren't many) Japanese culture is fundamentally different from American culture in a lot of ways, but for purposes of comparison and play style with MMOs, I will focus on one: patience.
The Japanese generally don't mind "the grind". They don't look at it like we do. They view it as an investment into their character, as a character building experience in it's own right. Whereas a NA player may think it's totally ridiculous that players have to farm 250 Yagudo Necklaces for a repeatable quest to even be able to trigger a quest for a spell that is all but necessary to play Final Fantasy XI ("Utsusemi: Ichi", to those that are familiar), a Japanese player has no qualms about doing it, viewing it as an obstacle to overcome, a rite of passage in the game, and proof of their endurance and skill. Camping an NM that has a 12 hour spawn window isn't considered ridiculous, as before, it is considered an obstacle to overcome, and when they do finally overcome it, they don't generally say to themselves "God, what a pain in the ass that was" they say "I was able to withstand the long wait".
American players seem to be much more impatient. I'm not speaking in a negative way, we just demand more in return for our time investment. Spending 12 hours waiting for an NM isn't considered a rite of passage so much as a limitation that the game developers put in place that we're being forced to get around. Even in regular parties in FFXI, I've notice that most Japanese players are willing to stick around in a party that is having difficulites and try and work together to increase our experience as a group, giving tips and such (when the language barrier isn't too great). It has definitely been my observation that an American player is quicker to throw in the towel and disband if it does not meet their preconcieved expectation of experience earned per hour (especially in the later stages of the game). Again, I'm not criticizing American players per se, I'm just saying that they tend to not wanna waste time and get what they want to get out of their time. I've had American players disband on the first sign of difficulty in a party in FFXI, the first botched pull, the first mismanagement of hate, the first inadvertant death. Even if a Japanese player has been disatisfied with the experience per hour, they generally just deal with it. American players, not so. "This party sucks" or "this is crap exp" or "pull faster", "I'm gonna go seek, this isn't working" etc.
Now, when FFXI was released here in the states, the feedback from the NA players was that it was just too much of a grind, it took too long to gain exp, losing experience when you die is just too harsh a punishment, the spawn windows on NM's is too long, etc. Over the years, Square has introduced systems catering to NA player's mindset over "the grind". Experience bands were introduced. The exp return of easier, more soloable monsters was heavily adjusted. Universal buffs were introduced that allowed players to reduce downtime, such as regen/refresh from Fields of Valor. Other methods of exp gain were introduced, like questable scrolls and campaign operations. They've done a lot to cater more to the NA players in FFXI.
It seems like they are trying to appeal more to the NA players by limiting "the grind" in FFXIV, although obviously not in the way some NA players want, according to the anger over it. You gotta remember, it was mainly NA players that were complaining about "the grind" in the first place. S-E learned a lot from FFXI and the way it was perceived here in the states, but unfortunately, the voices that were the loudest were those that didn't have the patience. S-E thinks that NA's don't like grinding, so they put a limit on how much you can grind in a given week. I'm not hearing about Japanese players losing their minds over this, although, admittedly, I don't have the resources I used to when I was a heavy FFXI player.
Can anyone fill me in on that? Have the Japanese players been up in arms over this or have they accepted it as a game limitation and moved on?
Surplus system is brilliant. it helps FFXIV be a successful MMO game. read here
im a casual gamer and everything that ive read is why everyone is up in arms,worst case senerio that everyone is complaining about is true. limiting xp too 15 hours of leveling a week. wont effect me much first few weeks maybe, but why penalize people that put more into the game. I dont expect or want to keep up with someone playin 50 hrs a week, and not fair to them at all. instead make them drop down to 10% xp so they can still pull ahead but more of a bonus for short term casual play.Then everyone is happy
I hear this quite often: "I don't want to level several classes nor should Square force me to."
And I wanna ask anyone who thinks this way those simple two questions:
1. What if I told that in a football game, you have to play defense, and offense, and drops, and players stats, and a lot of other things. Would you ever say: "I don't want to play different roles, I just want to play [att, def, whatever]"? Would you say "I blame EASports because they force me to stop playing attack and then I must play defense which I don't want to"?
Let met take a guess here: no you wouldn't, because it's how the game is played! The core design of football is that sometimes you're attacking with the ball, sometimes you defend without it. Period. Tough if you can't stand one or the other, then I guess football would not be for you...
2. Saying that leveling one class and one class only is, or should be, "enough" to play any MMO to/at max level is quite... restrictive on the idea of MMO. A bit narrow-minded if you ask me--though I don't blame players, after all this single-(hard)class model is indeed the most common approach. Yet, can you imagine a MMO where there would be no class system (just skills, or weapons...) ; or can you imagine a MMO where players HAVE TO level several classes to get a "valid" HL character? (hint: there are other ways to make MMOs than Blizzard's way).
I'd really appreciate answers on those questions. It seems to me that many people just don't see how MMORPG can be different than WoW.
I hear this quite often: "I don't want to level several classes nor should Square force me to."
And I wanna ask anyone who thinks this way those simple two questions:
1. What if I told that in a football game, you have to play defense, and offense, and drops, and players stats, and a lot of other things. Would you ever say: "I don't want to play different roles, I just want to play [att, def, whatever]"? Would you say "I blame EASports because they force me to stop playing attack and then I must play defense which I don't want to"?
What if in a football game, a running back was limited to only gaining fifteen yards per quarter regardless of whether he was a starter and got more playing time than other second string running backs? I suppose people like you would argue, "But their ability to gain yards would reset in the next quarter, so stop complaining ok.
Let met take a guess here: no you wouldn't, because it's how the game is played! The core design of football is that sometimes you're attacking with the ball, sometimes you defend without it. Period. Tough if you can't stand one or the other, then I guess football would not be for you...
It is a bad analogy because in football they don't force a running back to play quarterback, a lineman to play safety, a cornerback to play wide receiver, etc. Sure you would become a better player if you diversified and played these other positions that would "compliment" your main position, but you are not forced to play those positions in any way. If you want to be a running back ONLY for your entire career, that is YOUR CHOICE to make. Of course, you can also CHOSE to become a more diversified athlete thereby increasing your overall worth to your team, but you are not FORCED to do so if you chose not to.
2. Saying that leveling one class and one class only is, or should be, "enough" to play any MMO to/at max level is quite... restrictive on the idea of MMO. A bit narrow-minded if you ask me--though I don't blame players, after all this single-(hard)class model is indeed the most common approach. Yet, can you imagine a MMO where there would be no class system (just skills, or weapons...) ; or can you imagine a MMO where players HAVE TO level several classes to get a "valid" HL character? (hint: there are other ways to make MMOs than Blizzard's way).
Players are paying to play this game. They should have a choice in how they want to play the game and not be forced to play the game in a way that may not bring them enjoyment. I like to play caster. I have always played caster in all MMO's I have ever played. So now becuase SE thinks I may benefit by playing a melee class, they are forcing me to play a melee class, even though I do not, and have never enjoyed playing a melee class?<
For the record, I do realize that you are talking about playing a game on a PC or console, and I am talking about the physical playing of a sport. Although the dynamics may differ, the point remains ... and that is one of CHOICE!
To tell a consumer or your product that they will have to play a class they do not enjoy playing, or otherwise put the game down for the remainder of the week before they can continue playing the class they do enjoy playing is the epitomy of arrogance and .... well ... asinine, to say the least.
2. Saying that leveling one class and one class only is, or should be, "enough" to play any MMO to/at max level is quite... restrictive on the idea of MMO. A bit narrow-minded if you ask me--though I don't blame players, after all this single-(hard)class model is indeed the most common approach. Yet, can you imagine a MMO where there would be no class system (just skills, or weapons...) ; or can you imagine a MMO where players HAVE TO level several classes to get a "valid" HL character? (hint: there are other ways to make MMOs than Blizzard's way).
People are paying to play this game. They should have a choice in how they want to play the game and not be forced to play the game in a way that may not bring them enjoyment. I like to play caster. I have always played caster in all MMO's I have ever played. So now becuase SE thinks I may benefit by playing a melee class, they are forcing me to play a melee class, even though I do not, and have never enjoyed playing a melee class? As a consumer, I understand that I may benefit by playing other classes. But If I, as a paying customer, decide that I do not want to do so, shouldn't that option be available to me?
No one is advocating that there should not be systems to encourage players to play other classes. People are simply voicing their opinion that they should be given a choice as to how to develop their characters. Again, I enjoyed FFXI, they did not FORCE me to play another class. They encouraged us to take up a subjob, and the large majority of us did so. However, the choice to gimp ourselves and not take up a subjob was also there, if we chose to go that route, and continue playing the game the way we wanted to play it. That will not be the case in FFXIV.
The operative word here is CHOICE !
I'd really appreciate answers on those questions. It seems to me that many people just don't see how MMORPG can be different than WoW.
It has nothig to do with WoW and everything to do with CHOICE.
For the record, I do realize that you are talking about playing a game on a PC or console, and I am talking about the physical playing of a sport. Point being that although the dynamics may differ, the issue at hand remains the same ... and that is one of CHOICE!
To tell a consumer of your product that they have no choice but to play classes they do not enjoy playing, or otherwise put the game down for the remainder of the week before they can continue playing the class they do enjoy playing, is the epitomy of arrogance to say the least, and .... well ... completely asinine, to be totally frank.
Kxiani, I find your post is interesting. Not only does it prove I oversaw some things, it also shows there isn't a definite approach to this rather philosophical matter.
I understand your take on football positions, which are indeed closely related to the very idea of "class" or "job". You do make a valid point when you argue that players are, and should be, free to choose how they will progress in the sport.
However, please consider this. The worst part of my analogy is that in football, each position requires different skills that are, indeed, very close to the "hard class" model of games like WoW or, for that matter, any D&D-based RPG.
What a runner does and what a quarterback does imply, indeed, a very different set of skill, which in turn determines those positions.
However look at vollyball for instance, or basketball. Players in those games have, by design, by the very core rules, to assume different positions at times.
In volleyball, I don't know the technical terms of the sport, but basically every player will assume all positions at times during the match, in an ever-rolling shift manner. Thus they all need to know how to receive, roll, pass, smash, counter a smash, serve...
In basketball, though they tend to have more specific roles, players have to practice many skills, both offensive and defensive, because well... there's only so many of them on the field at once. I'm sure coach disagrees when players argue "I don't need, ever, to practice my rebounds because I'm a 3-pts shooter. Besides rebounds bore me to hell."
This leads me to assume that WoW or any "hard-class" based RPG ressembles more to football with its very strict and well-defined "player types", what they call positions or class, bluntly put a specific set of skills that can not be exchanged for another. While FF XIV's armory system, from what I gathered in this beta, is closer to volleyball or basketball, where all players must cover "more field" of/in the game. It's a fact, from my testing, that having a bit of two jobs eases the game a lot, and is much more suited to the global enemy design.
I guess my point is that, by design, the requirements on players do vary, sometimes greatly, between RPGs. Who's to say that all sports should have defined positions, all RPGs should have defined classes or player archetypes? The very fact that skills are classified under job titles doesn't imply players can "succeed" (as defined by the rules and PvE designs) if they only play one job, especially since FF XIV allows you to learn all jobs. I'm sure a single-job character will be able (with good budies) to win his chain, but I'm also confident that a 80/20 character, between two jobs well-combined, will be much more efficient.
There's undeniably a lot of freedom in FF XIV in the armory system (not considering surplus here), considering a single character can learn all the skills of the game; but it comes at a price, which is that none of those jobs, or more precisely skills category, are self-sustaining or even "complete". They're very much oriented, unlike most other MMOs where all classes have a bit of this and than, even at the basic level, to be able to solo efficiently. Maybe that's why surplus, as a hard incentive to level other jobs, exists.
Thinking further on this, I realize that most hard-class based MMORPGs have had to include "common grounds" to all classes, particularly the ability to solo or to trade. A casual play requires such things. In FF XIV, it seems that people have to customize their character by picking up the right skills in all jobs. It's a bit like the Guild Wars system, only here you get much more freedom being able to choose among all jobs, all sets of skills. However there will be smart restrictions here and there that will, undoubtedly, preserve an identity to a HL job (only job X can do skill Y which makes it unique on the battlefield). There we'll probably feel more like football players than volleyball players when in group/raid, agreed. At this point the surplus system may not be so much of a problem though, since we're talking about HL skills.
There is also the matter of "how much" restriction of choice. If a regular player has to play 2 jobs, or more like 1 and a half, in order to avoid surplus, I'm sure it'll be quite alright for most players. If it's a die-hard hardcore tuning, and a regular has to play at least 3 jobs to achieve the same goal, it will be an issue, rightfully.
Consider this: a casual puts 10-20h of weekly playtime, and since surplus XP is calculated based on 8+7 hours of what I'd call "ideal leveling", most casuals will not really be bothered by surplus. One hour of casual play, in average, is not really like the japanese estimation of an hour of xping, if you catch my drift, so 8h of surplus-free leveling would translate into 10 to 15h of real time, considering various downtimes and inefficiencies. Square should ease that up a bit more so that even "light hardcore" players (20-30h a week) would only be slightly impacted by surplus (having to play between 1.0 and 2.0 jobs, ensuring they can play caster only or close combat only from day 1).
The end result depends a lot on the general balance of the feature, the actual numbers they'll put behind it, as usual in MMORPG. I'm tending to think that Square will make it so most players can play their favorite jobs most of the time, and would have to choose between leveling a bit less fast or trying another job for the last 10 or 20% of their time each week. I hope they do, shortly, find such a soft tuning.
Surplus also carries the message that, in FF XIV, "hardcore player" means "several jobs". I can't think of it another way. Well, it's different than a pure leveling race, yet it's a clear objective, and it's real hardcore for those who'll dive in it.
However, in the case of casters, I'm hoping I'll be able to play only the two jobs available at release in my playtime. I, like you, don't wish to play anything else. In time, there will be more caster jobs, and we'll be able to play magic only for as long as we wish, without surplus.
I guess my previous post may have been a bit antagonizing, I hope this one isn't.
XXX, I find your post is interesting. Not only does it prove I oversaw some things, it also shows there isn't a definite approach to this rather philosophical matter.
I understand your take on football positions, which are indeed closely related to the very idea of "class" or "job". You do make a valid point when you argue that players are, and should be, free to choose how they will progress in the sport.
However, please consider this. The worst part of my analogy is that in football, each position requires different skills that are, indeed, very close to the "hard class" model of games like WoW or, for that matter, any D&D-based RPG.
What a runner does and what a quarterback does imply, indeed, a very different set of skill, which in turn determines those positions.
However look at vollyball for instance, or basketball. Players in those games have, by design, by the very core rules, to assume different positions at times.
In volleyball, I don't know the technical terms of the sport, but basically every player will assume all positions at times during the match, in an ever-rolling shift manner. Thus they all need to know how to receive, roll, pass, smash, counter a smash, serve...
In basketball, though they tend to have more specific roles, players have to practice many skills, both offensive and defensive, because well... there's only so many of them on the field at once. I'm sure coach disagrees when players argue "I don't need, ever, to practice my rebounds because I'm a 3-pts shooter. Besides rebounds bore me to hell."
This leads me to assume that WoW or any "hard-class" based RPG ressembles more to football with its very strict and well-defined "player types", what they call positions or class, bluntly put a specific set of skills that can not be exchanged for another. While FF XIV's armory system, from what I gathered in this beta, is closer to volleyball or basketball, where all players must cover "more field" of/in the game. It's a fact, from my testing, that having a bit of two jobs eases the game a lot, and is much more suited to the global enemy design.
I guess my point is that, by design, the requirements on players do vary, sometimes greatly, between RPGs. Who's to say that all sports should have defined positions, all RPGs should have defined classes or player archetypes? The very fact that skills are classified under job titles doesn't imply players can "succeed" (as defined by the rules and PvE designs) if they only play one job, especially since FF XIV allows you to learn all jobs. I'm sure a single-job character will be able (with good budies) to win his chain, but I'm also confident that a 80/20 character, between two jobs well-combined, will be much more efficient.
There's undeniably a lot of freedom in FF XIV in the armory system (not considering surplus here), considering a single character can learn all the skills of the game; but it comes at a price, which is that none of those jobs, or more precisely skills category, are self-sustaining or even "complete". They're very much oriented, unlike most other MMOs where all classes have a bit of this and than, even at the basic level, to be able to solo efficiently. Maybe that's why surplus, as a hard incentive to level other jobs, exists.
Thinking further on this, I realize that most hard-class based MMORPGs have had to include "common grounds" to all classes, particularly the ability to solo or to trade. A casual play requires such things. In FF XIV, it seems that people have to customize their character by picking up the right skills in all jobs. It's a bit like the Guild Wars system, only here you get much more freedom being able to choose among all jobs, all sets of skills. However there will be smart restrictions here and there that will, undoubtedly, preserve an identity to a HL job (only job X can do skill Y which makes it unique on the battlefield). There we'll probably feel more like football players than volleyball players when in group/raid, agreed. At this point the surplus system may not be so much of a problem since we're talking about HL skills.
There is also the matter of "how much" restriction of choice. If a regular player has to play 2 jobs, or more like 1 and a half, in order to avoid surplus, I'm sure it'll be quite alright for most players. If it's a die-hard hardcore tuning, and a regular has to play at least 3 jobs to achieve the same goal, it will be an issue, rightfully.
Consider this: a casual puts 10-20h of weekly playtime, and since surplus XP is calculated based on 8+7 hours of what I'd call "ideal leveling", most casuals will not really be bothered by surplus. One hour of casual play, in average, is not really like the japanese estimation of an hour of xping, if you catch my drift, so 8h of surplus-free leveling would translate into 10 to 15h of real time, considering various downtimes and inefficiencies. They can easy that up a bit more so that "light hardcore" players (20-30h a week) would be slightly impacted (having to play between 1.0 and 2.0 jobs, ensuring they can play caster only or close combat only).
The end result depends a lot on the general balance of the feature, the actual numbers they'll put behind it, as usual in MMORPG. I'm tending to think that Square will make it so most players can play their favorite jobs most of the time, and would have to choose between leveling a bit less fast or trying another job for the last 10 or 20% of their time each week. I hope they do, shortly, find such a soft tuning.
Surplus also carries the message that, in FF XIV, "hardcore player" means "several jobs". I can't think of it another way. Well, it's different than a pure leveling race, yet it's a clear objective, and it's real hardcore for those who'll dive in it.
However, in the case of casters, I'm hoping I'll be able to play only the two jobs available at release in my playtime. I, like you, don't wish to play anything else. In time, there will be more caster jobs, and we'll be able to play magic only for as long as we wish, without surplus.
I guess my previous post may have been a bit antagonizing, I hope this one isn't.
Ikkei, I understand the point you are trying to make is that FFXIV is a different type of MMO from the rest, much like football is a different type of sport from the rest, because they both require players to be more diversified. So that I guess the analogy can then be made, "What if football suddenly FORCED all of their players to play all positions? Do you think this would cause an uproar and backlash from, not only players but fans alike, against this NEW ruling?
Of course it would!
To take it one step further, this scenario is much different than the sports analogy you are making because in your scenario players already know what will be required of them if they want to play volleyball and basketball. From an early age they know what to expect, thus they train themselves accordingly. There are no surprises there. Furthermore, these players get paid handsomely to perform these functions. In FFXIV, we are not getting payed to play the game the way they want us to play. We, the consumers, are being forced to play the game they want us to play, even though we are the ones paying S-E!
And yes, I do understand it's S-E's game. And yes, they are free to implement their game the way they want. But their game will cease to be relevant if consumers shun it and opt not to support it. S-E is beholden to the consumer for the success of the game. In that sense we are partners in our common goal to help it succeed. We do, or atleast should, have a say. Not so much in how the game is made, but rather on the value and level of enjoyment derived from the game.
In other words, consumers should be allowed to play a role they enjoy playing. Forcing a player to play a role (read, game) they do not enjoy playing, is akin to committing financial suicide. How is FORCING anyone to play a caster or healer, when they have always been a melee fighter, enjoy playing melee fighter, and have never had an interest in playing a caster or a healer, not an arrogant decision by S-E in telling that player "OH, You WILL play caster AND healer, even though you don't enjoy doing so, because we tell you to! Furthermore, we will make sure you play caster and healer because we WE WILL BE TAKING THE CHOICE AWAY FROM YOU NOT TO! We WILL be shutting down your melee fighting for the equivalent of a week, so that if you want to keep on playing for the remainder of the week, the only way you will be able to do so is by playing caster and/or healer.
This was implimented to prevent players from getting to end game too fast. Because it's not there yet. However, it has the side effect that all have been talking about, with the forcing of players to do things.
one asspect of this that no one has said (or i have not read the post if they have) is that the system is actually going to make people do what the majority of the players will want you to do. what do i mean by this?
first the FFXIV job system makes it so when you switch jobs you select your skills from the list of all skills you available to you at that time (not all skills from other jobs can be used from my understanding), and to be an effectve player you will need to have more skills than just your job's skills [ yes i know once the game is out there will be alot of disscussions about that skill setups will be the best for each roll and there will be some poeple who will do strange things in these setups } but what i can tell you from all my years of MMO experiance is the player base will dictate what players need to be a good player, and amny people will not group with you, or not more than the first time, if the way you have setup your char does not work well.
That means that the player who only plays say PUG and has no cross class skills to equip will most likely not be effective as those who has the other skills and have a hard time to find groups to level when there are others who have the cross skills because that is what people will expect you to have. Now you can play a pure PUG fine and be a DD, but we know that most people will not want to group with you without other skills. Thus i see this syste in place for two reasons, 1 to ensure you develope a well rounded character, and 2 that you will end up with a char that is more acceptable by the majority of players and make your gaming experinace more ufun.
I know anyone who played FFXI will agree that when your looking for a group the first thing that was checked was the players subjob, what was it and was it at the correct level. if either of them was not what you wanted you didnt even send them a tell unless there was no other options, and if there was no others you sent a tell asking if they had xxx sub leveled and told them to switch and come pt if they did. needed a mage and what we find is only a Galka mage... unless you knew the player and knew they were merited for MP and INT and would be well geared most would just skip over them. This was a problem for many people any i know many people who quit FFXI because they could not get groups with the setup they wanted to play, and clearly without a leveled subjob could not get a group (nothing was forced by SE) because of how others looked at them. I really think that SE is trying to keep it so that this will be unlikely as unless you only play for 1.5hrs a day you will be semi forced to level other jobs and be closer to what will be expected by the other players
KogaDrake, again, the issue is not one of "the benefits" of diversifying your build. The issue is one of "choice."
Please stop raising this "S-E is doing this because they are sooo concerned about us gimping our characters and are out to help us from ourselves" excuse. If anything that should be insulting to all of us. S-E is not your daddy. I presume we are all big boys and girls and can decide for ourselves how we want to play the game. Unless S-E is going to be paying our subscription fee, we do not need, nor do we want, S-E to hold our hands and tell us how to play a game we will be paying with our money, out of our pockets, to play.
I don't know how much clearer that point can be made.
Furthermore, and truth be told, S-E is not doing this for some altruistic reason such as helping us from our dumb selves because "we minions can't figure out for ourselves that it would be obviously beneficial to diversify our skill set by leveling different jobs." The real and only reason they are doing this, is to control your level of progression. Do not dilute yourself into thinking otherwise. And the real crime in all of this is that it wouldn't be so bad if they admitted as much. But they don't. Because they know that it would be wrong to do that. So they mask it by pledging some altruistic reason such as looking out for the casual player or helping us to diversify our skill set by pushing this flawed system. Neither of which make any sense to any independent thinking individual who has not been brainwashed into the Final Fantasy fanboy club.
Think about it, how does the "casual player" argument even make any sense when there will always be players coming into the game at different times of the time spectrum, for years to come. In other words, how is this system going to help the casual player who starts the game two years from now over the hardcore player, or even another casual player who starts playing at launch? It doesn't. This would only make a modicum of sense if every player was starting the game at the same and no other players were allowed to join in after launch. But even then this wouldn't make sense. Why? Because hardcore players and casual players play a different game. They are not even in the same playing field.
As it pertains to diversifying our skillset? Come on, let's be honest with ourselves. Why in the heck should they, as a business entity even care about this? As a business all they should be concerned with, and indeed are concerned with, is cash flow. Repeat - Their bottom line is CASHFLOW. Trust me when I tell you, Sales and subscriptions is all that matters in the long run. And if you think differently, you sir are seriously gullible and hopelessly naive.
Done with this subject. If it isn't clear by now, it never will be. Peace and prosperity.
I'll preface my response by saying "I haven't been in beta yet". My client crashes, so it won't even launch to update...but that's another story. As for the topic at hand, the surplus system, I have to agree with several people on here. SE should not decide based on time or XP how long you should play each week for a game you pay for. If you get no XP (and therefore no reward for your effort...let's be honest...it IS effort) people are not going to sit around and oogle over the graphics and stumble around towns. After a very short while, you will "see" everything you can for your level, and this isn't Second Life...most of us have no desire to soak up the environment and do nothing useful in the game. I'd rather go play with my dogs more.
All of that aside, I see one looming issue which I haven't noticed anyone bring up that kinda overshadows this whole weekly XP cap nonsense. It's been said, no problem if you hit your cap for skill XP...just jump on another job and you can level skill XP for it. However, physical XP goes across characters, so once it's capped...no more forward advancement in "level" no matter what job you play. Now follow me here. Say I cap out my Archer for the week for both Skill & Physical XP. So I change over to Lancer to level Skill XP on it (keep in mind Physical XP was capped so no more level advancement). I join a party of "casual gamers". As we play, they continue to level in Physical XP while I am slowly left behind. My stats (controlled by physical XP) start to wane, and they decide I'm now too low for the party and kick me. My party basically levels beyond my ability to follow because of this mechanic. So...did SE implement a level sync feature like XI so that I won't be left behind?
I mean you can say that the "physical levels" aren't like XI or any other game, perhaps you don't think of levels in the same way in XIV...who knows? Remember I can't get in and only have the Google God to keep me appraised of how things work. But what I've read is physical level controls your attributes and stats, while skill level controls your abilities and weapon skills. When you boil it down physical level sounds exactly like every other MMO...you get a new level, you get a stat increase and your HP and MP generally go up. So...back to my party...if my stats lag behind, then mobs become harder as I fight in the party, and I'm no longer an efficient contributor compared to the other members...they'll kick me.
If SE wants to employ such a system to "force us to do other things", why not make crafting XP on a separate system, or even unrestrained. Then when folks hit their weekly physical XP cap for their adventuring jobs...they can still do something useful with their online time by working on crafting skills. From what I've read they work on the same "Fatigue" system (why call it surplus...surplus is extra stuff you can use...you can't use this "surplus" XP) so they would be physically capped as well. Is that incorrect?
Ok, so here we are over a week into the open beta, and I'm curious. Anyone ACTUALLY PLAYING in the beta this entire week hit a surplus yet? I still see threads being made and shut down claiming its still there, but with one difference, lots of people who are playing say they haven't seen it at all. I'm one of those, my highest is physical lvl 19, conj 14, thrum 14, mar 8, pug 8, weaver 6 and I have yet to see any xp slowdown or 'surplus' xp hit me.
So yeah, I'm curious to find out from people who are still in game playing, do you see surplus? I say those still in game because those that played for 2 hours and quit obviously wouldn't have reached it during thier play time. Looking for good honest hard facts from the people who have the ability to know first hand in Open Beta.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
I see this mostly as a clever attempt to keep their players from getting burnt out too quickly, and to prevent thier fanbase from becoming the red eyed, zombie-like shut-ins as you see in most other MMO's.
No offence meant to the red eyed, zombie-like shut-ins who are browsing this thread at the moment.
I see this mostly as a clever attempt to keep their players from getting burnt out too quickly, and to prevent thier fanbase from becoming the red eyed, zombie-like shut-ins as you see in most other MMO's.
No offence meant to the red eyed, zombie-like shut-ins who are browsing this thread at the moment.
I agree...that video is excellent at going the lengths to explain the system, and made me realize the system is actually quite revolutionary and will take a little time to tweak to make it perfect.
I see this mostly as a clever attempt to keep their players from getting burnt out too quickly, and to prevent thier fanbase from becoming the red eyed, zombie-like shut-ins as you see in most other MMO's.
No offence meant to the red eyed, zombie-like shut-ins who are browsing this thread at the moment.
I agree...that video is excellent at going the lengths to explain the system, and made me realize the system is actually quite revolutionary and will take a little time to tweak to make it perfect.
Also, I lol'd at your "No offence"
Its interesting that you use the word "revolutionary". Since it is one of the first words flashed across the screen in the video.
Square should definitely hire the person who created the video for their North American P.R. department.
I see this mostly as a clever attempt to keep their players from getting burnt out too quickly, and to prevent thier fanbase from becoming the red eyed, zombie-like shut-ins as you see in most other MMO's.
No offence meant to the red eyed, zombie-like shut-ins who are browsing this thread at the moment.
I agree...that video is excellent at going the lengths to explain the system, and made me realize the system is actually quite revolutionary and will take a little time to tweak to make it perfect.
Also, I lol'd at your "No offence"
Its interesting that you use the word "revolutionary". Since it is one of the first words flashed across the screen in the video.
Square should definitely hire the person who created the video for their North American P.R. department.
#2 we got time ( evil grin ) , let them buy the game first and after we can do anything we want !
where mmorpg are going ?
To be honest, it's the same thing that every other MMO (almost) does. They just did a terrible job with naming it.
With other MMOs, you have "rested" experience where you get double the xp for a certain amount of time if you don't play.
This is a 'fatigue' system where you get less xp for a certain amount of time if you do play.
Huh!?
In the former you are helping one group of people and leaving the other group alone to play the game at the normal pace. In in the latter you are hurting a group of people and leaving the other group alone to play the game at the normal pace.
Comments
Actually, err, no. Edeus is quite right in my opinion.
Different peoples have different takes on "foreigners", and it's true some countries do have, in average, better knowledge of the rest of the world than others. However, when it comes to the appreciation of others' cultures, and the will to experience it, let alone bring it back home, you won't find many societies more "xenophobic" than the japanese, or put more mildly, a tendancy to dismiss foreign ideas as being "maybe good for them but not for us".
Granted, this is a feeling you might encounter in many countries, especially the ones with strong cultures, be it the french, the american or the chinese, but nowhere in the world is it as extreme as it is in Japan. That is a fact, often shared by japanese themselves--the few ones that left the island.
Okay, in my cursory understanding of Japanese culture, and my interactions with Japanese players on FFXI (that were fluent in English as well as Japanese, there aren't many) Japanese culture is fundamentally different from American culture in a lot of ways, but for purposes of comparison and play style with MMOs, I will focus on one: patience.
The Japanese generally don't mind "the grind". They don't look at it like we do. They view it as an investment into their character, as a character building experience in it's own right. Whereas a NA player may think it's totally ridiculous that players have to farm 250 Yagudo Necklaces for a repeatable quest to even be able to trigger a quest for a spell that is all but necessary to play Final Fantasy XI ("Utsusemi: Ichi", to those that are familiar), a Japanese player has no qualms about doing it, viewing it as an obstacle to overcome, a rite of passage in the game, and proof of their endurance and skill. Camping an NM that has a 12 hour spawn window isn't considered ridiculous, as before, it is considered an obstacle to overcome, and when they do finally overcome it, they don't generally say to themselves "God, what a pain in the ass that was" they say "I was able to withstand the long wait".
American players seem to be much more impatient. I'm not speaking in a negative way, we just demand more in return for our time investment. Spending 12 hours waiting for an NM isn't considered a rite of passage so much as a limitation that the game developers put in place that we're being forced to get around. Even in regular parties in FFXI, I've notice that most Japanese players are willing to stick around in a party that is having difficulites and try and work together to increase our experience as a group, giving tips and such (when the language barrier isn't too great). It has definitely been my observation that an American player is quicker to throw in the towel and disband if it does not meet their preconcieved expectation of experience earned per hour (especially in the later stages of the game). Again, I'm not criticizing American players per se, I'm just saying that they tend to not wanna waste time and get what they want to get out of their time. I've had American players disband on the first sign of difficulty in a party in FFXI, the first botched pull, the first mismanagement of hate, the first inadvertant death. Even if a Japanese player has been disatisfied with the experience per hour, they generally just deal with it. American players, not so. "This party sucks" or "this is crap exp" or "pull faster", "I'm gonna go seek, this isn't working" etc.
Now, when FFXI was released here in the states, the feedback from the NA players was that it was just too much of a grind, it took too long to gain exp, losing experience when you die is just too harsh a punishment, the spawn windows on NM's is too long, etc. Over the years, Square has introduced systems catering to NA player's mindset over "the grind". Experience bands were introduced. The exp return of easier, more soloable monsters was heavily adjusted. Universal buffs were introduced that allowed players to reduce downtime, such as regen/refresh from Fields of Valor. Other methods of exp gain were introduced, like questable scrolls and campaign operations. They've done a lot to cater more to the NA players in FFXI.
It seems like they are trying to appeal more to the NA players by limiting "the grind" in FFXIV, although obviously not in the way some NA players want, according to the anger over it. You gotta remember, it was mainly NA players that were complaining about "the grind" in the first place. S-E learned a lot from FFXI and the way it was perceived here in the states, but unfortunately, the voices that were the loudest were those that didn't have the patience. S-E thinks that NA's don't like grinding, so they put a limit on how much you can grind in a given week. I'm not hearing about Japanese players losing their minds over this, although, admittedly, I don't have the resources I used to when I was a heavy FFXI player.
Can anyone fill me in on that? Have the Japanese players been up in arms over this or have they accepted it as a game limitation and moved on?
Surplus system is brilliant. it helps FFXIV be a successful MMO game. read here
im a casual gamer and everything that ive read is why everyone is up in arms,worst case senerio that everyone is complaining about is true. limiting xp too 15 hours of leveling a week. wont effect me much first few weeks maybe, but why penalize people that put more into the game. I dont expect or want to keep up with someone playin 50 hrs a week, and not fair to them at all. instead make them drop down to 10% xp so they can still pull ahead but more of a bonus for short term casual play. Then everyone is happy
The surplus on class SP is just a way to get you play different classes... a minor issue.
However the fatigue on Physical Level could get in the way, I hope they relax or remove Physical Level XP Fatigue.
I hear this quite often: "I don't want to level several classes nor should Square force me to."
And I wanna ask anyone who thinks this way those simple two questions:
1. What if I told that in a football game, you have to play defense, and offense, and drops, and players stats, and a lot of other things. Would you ever say: "I don't want to play different roles, I just want to play [att, def, whatever]"? Would you say "I blame EASports because they force me to stop playing attack and then I must play defense which I don't want to"?
Let met take a guess here: no you wouldn't, because it's how the game is played! The core design of football is that sometimes you're attacking with the ball, sometimes you defend without it. Period. Tough if you can't stand one or the other, then I guess football would not be for you...
2. Saying that leveling one class and one class only is, or should be, "enough" to play any MMO to/at max level is quite... restrictive on the idea of MMO. A bit narrow-minded if you ask me--though I don't blame players, after all this single-(hard)class model is indeed the most common approach. Yet, can you imagine a MMO where there would be no class system (just skills, or weapons...) ; or can you imagine a MMO where players HAVE TO level several classes to get a "valid" HL character? (hint: there are other ways to make MMOs than Blizzard's way).
I'd really appreciate answers on those questions. It seems to me that many people just don't see how MMORPG can be different than WoW.
For the record, I do realize that you are talking about playing a game on a PC or console, and I am talking about the physical playing of a sport. Point being that although the dynamics may differ, the issue at hand remains the same ... and that is one of CHOICE!
To tell a consumer of your product that they have no choice but to play classes they do not enjoy playing, or otherwise put the game down for the remainder of the week before they can continue playing the class they do enjoy playing, is the epitomy of arrogance to say the least, and .... well ... completely asinine, to be totally frank.
Kxiani, I find your post is interesting. Not only does it prove I oversaw some things, it also shows there isn't a definite approach to this rather philosophical matter.
I understand your take on football positions, which are indeed closely related to the very idea of "class" or "job". You do make a valid point when you argue that players are, and should be, free to choose how they will progress in the sport.
However, please consider this. The worst part of my analogy is that in football, each position requires different skills that are, indeed, very close to the "hard class" model of games like WoW or, for that matter, any D&D-based RPG.
What a runner does and what a quarterback does imply, indeed, a very different set of skill, which in turn determines those positions.
However look at vollyball for instance, or basketball. Players in those games have, by design, by the very core rules, to assume different positions at times.
In volleyball, I don't know the technical terms of the sport, but basically every player will assume all positions at times during the match, in an ever-rolling shift manner. Thus they all need to know how to receive, roll, pass, smash, counter a smash, serve...
In basketball, though they tend to have more specific roles, players have to practice many skills, both offensive and defensive, because well... there's only so many of them on the field at once. I'm sure coach disagrees when players argue "I don't need, ever, to practice my rebounds because I'm a 3-pts shooter. Besides rebounds bore me to hell."
This leads me to assume that WoW or any "hard-class" based RPG ressembles more to football with its very strict and well-defined "player types", what they call positions or class, bluntly put a specific set of skills that can not be exchanged for another. While FF XIV's armory system, from what I gathered in this beta, is closer to volleyball or basketball, where all players must cover "more field" of/in the game. It's a fact, from my testing, that having a bit of two jobs eases the game a lot, and is much more suited to the global enemy design.
I guess my point is that, by design, the requirements on players do vary, sometimes greatly, between RPGs. Who's to say that all sports should have defined positions, all RPGs should have defined classes or player archetypes? The very fact that skills are classified under job titles doesn't imply players can "succeed" (as defined by the rules and PvE designs) if they only play one job, especially since FF XIV allows you to learn all jobs. I'm sure a single-job character will be able (with good budies) to win his chain, but I'm also confident that a 80/20 character, between two jobs well-combined, will be much more efficient.
There's undeniably a lot of freedom in FF XIV in the armory system (not considering surplus here), considering a single character can learn all the skills of the game; but it comes at a price, which is that none of those jobs, or more precisely skills category, are self-sustaining or even "complete". They're very much oriented, unlike most other MMOs where all classes have a bit of this and than, even at the basic level, to be able to solo efficiently. Maybe that's why surplus, as a hard incentive to level other jobs, exists.
Thinking further on this, I realize that most hard-class based MMORPGs have had to include "common grounds" to all classes, particularly the ability to solo or to trade. A casual play requires such things. In FF XIV, it seems that people have to customize their character by picking up the right skills in all jobs. It's a bit like the Guild Wars system, only here you get much more freedom being able to choose among all jobs, all sets of skills. However there will be smart restrictions here and there that will, undoubtedly, preserve an identity to a HL job (only job X can do skill Y which makes it unique on the battlefield). There we'll probably feel more like football players than volleyball players when in group/raid, agreed. At this point the surplus system may not be so much of a problem though, since we're talking about HL skills.
There is also the matter of "how much" restriction of choice. If a regular player has to play 2 jobs, or more like 1 and a half, in order to avoid surplus, I'm sure it'll be quite alright for most players. If it's a die-hard hardcore tuning, and a regular has to play at least 3 jobs to achieve the same goal, it will be an issue, rightfully.
Consider this: a casual puts 10-20h of weekly playtime, and since surplus XP is calculated based on 8+7 hours of what I'd call "ideal leveling", most casuals will not really be bothered by surplus. One hour of casual play, in average, is not really like the japanese estimation of an hour of xping, if you catch my drift, so 8h of surplus-free leveling would translate into 10 to 15h of real time, considering various downtimes and inefficiencies. Square should ease that up a bit more so that even "light hardcore" players (20-30h a week) would only be slightly impacted by surplus (having to play between 1.0 and 2.0 jobs, ensuring they can play caster only or close combat only from day 1).
The end result depends a lot on the general balance of the feature, the actual numbers they'll put behind it, as usual in MMORPG. I'm tending to think that Square will make it so most players can play their favorite jobs most of the time, and would have to choose between leveling a bit less fast or trying another job for the last 10 or 20% of their time each week. I hope they do, shortly, find such a soft tuning.
Surplus also carries the message that, in FF XIV, "hardcore player" means "several jobs". I can't think of it another way. Well, it's different than a pure leveling race, yet it's a clear objective, and it's real hardcore for those who'll dive in it.
However, in the case of casters, I'm hoping I'll be able to play only the two jobs available at release in my playtime. I, like you, don't wish to play anything else. In time, there will be more caster jobs, and we'll be able to play magic only for as long as we wish, without surplus.
I guess my previous post may have been a bit antagonizing, I hope this one isn't.
XXX, I find your post is interesting. Not only does it prove I oversaw some things, it also shows there isn't a definite approach to this rather philosophical matter.
I understand your take on football positions, which are indeed closely related to the very idea of "class" or "job". You do make a valid point when you argue that players are, and should be, free to choose how they will progress in the sport.
However, please consider this. The worst part of my analogy is that in football, each position requires different skills that are, indeed, very close to the "hard class" model of games like WoW or, for that matter, any D&D-based RPG.
What a runner does and what a quarterback does imply, indeed, a very different set of skill, which in turn determines those positions.
However look at vollyball for instance, or basketball. Players in those games have, by design, by the very core rules, to assume different positions at times.
In volleyball, I don't know the technical terms of the sport, but basically every player will assume all positions at times during the match, in an ever-rolling shift manner. Thus they all need to know how to receive, roll, pass, smash, counter a smash, serve...
In basketball, though they tend to have more specific roles, players have to practice many skills, both offensive and defensive, because well... there's only so many of them on the field at once. I'm sure coach disagrees when players argue "I don't need, ever, to practice my rebounds because I'm a 3-pts shooter. Besides rebounds bore me to hell."
This leads me to assume that WoW or any "hard-class" based RPG ressembles more to football with its very strict and well-defined "player types", what they call positions or class, bluntly put a specific set of skills that can not be exchanged for another. While FF XIV's armory system, from what I gathered in this beta, is closer to volleyball or basketball, where all players must cover "more field" of/in the game. It's a fact, from my testing, that having a bit of two jobs eases the game a lot, and is much more suited to the global enemy design.
I guess my point is that, by design, the requirements on players do vary, sometimes greatly, between RPGs. Who's to say that all sports should have defined positions, all RPGs should have defined classes or player archetypes? The very fact that skills are classified under job titles doesn't imply players can "succeed" (as defined by the rules and PvE designs) if they only play one job, especially since FF XIV allows you to learn all jobs. I'm sure a single-job character will be able (with good budies) to win his chain, but I'm also confident that a 80/20 character, between two jobs well-combined, will be much more efficient.
There's undeniably a lot of freedom in FF XIV in the armory system (not considering surplus here), considering a single character can learn all the skills of the game; but it comes at a price, which is that none of those jobs, or more precisely skills category, are self-sustaining or even "complete". They're very much oriented, unlike most other MMOs where all classes have a bit of this and than, even at the basic level, to be able to solo efficiently. Maybe that's why surplus, as a hard incentive to level other jobs, exists.
Thinking further on this, I realize that most hard-class based MMORPGs have had to include "common grounds" to all classes, particularly the ability to solo or to trade. A casual play requires such things. In FF XIV, it seems that people have to customize their character by picking up the right skills in all jobs. It's a bit like the Guild Wars system, only here you get much more freedom being able to choose among all jobs, all sets of skills. However there will be smart restrictions here and there that will, undoubtedly, preserve an identity to a HL job (only job X can do skill Y which makes it unique on the battlefield). There we'll probably feel more like football players than volleyball players when in group/raid, agreed. At this point the surplus system may not be so much of a problem since we're talking about HL skills.
There is also the matter of "how much" restriction of choice. If a regular player has to play 2 jobs, or more like 1 and a half, in order to avoid surplus, I'm sure it'll be quite alright for most players. If it's a die-hard hardcore tuning, and a regular has to play at least 3 jobs to achieve the same goal, it will be an issue, rightfully.
Consider this: a casual puts 10-20h of weekly playtime, and since surplus XP is calculated based on 8+7 hours of what I'd call "ideal leveling", most casuals will not really be bothered by surplus. One hour of casual play, in average, is not really like the japanese estimation of an hour of xping, if you catch my drift, so 8h of surplus-free leveling would translate into 10 to 15h of real time, considering various downtimes and inefficiencies. They can easy that up a bit more so that "light hardcore" players (20-30h a week) would be slightly impacted (having to play between 1.0 and 2.0 jobs, ensuring they can play caster only or close combat only).
The end result depends a lot on the general balance of the feature, the actual numbers they'll put behind it, as usual in MMORPG. I'm tending to think that Square will make it so most players can play their favorite jobs most of the time, and would have to choose between leveling a bit less fast or trying another job for the last 10 or 20% of their time each week. I hope they do, shortly, find such a soft tuning.
Surplus also carries the message that, in FF XIV, "hardcore player" means "several jobs". I can't think of it another way. Well, it's different than a pure leveling race, yet it's a clear objective, and it's real hardcore for those who'll dive in it.
However, in the case of casters, I'm hoping I'll be able to play only the two jobs available at release in my playtime. I, like you, don't wish to play anything else. In time, there will be more caster jobs, and we'll be able to play magic only for as long as we wish, without surplus.
I guess my previous post may have been a bit antagonizing, I hope this one isn't.
Ikkei, I understand the point you are trying to make is that FFXIV is a different type of MMO from the rest, much like football is a different type of sport from the rest, because they both require players to be more diversified. So that I guess the analogy can then be made, "What if football suddenly FORCED all of their players to play all positions? Do you think this would cause an uproar and backlash from, not only players but fans alike, against this NEW ruling?
Of course it would!
To take it one step further, this scenario is much different than the sports analogy you are making because in your scenario players already know what will be required of them if they want to play volleyball and basketball. From an early age they know what to expect, thus they train themselves accordingly. There are no surprises there. Furthermore, these players get paid handsomely to perform these functions. In FFXIV, we are not getting payed to play the game the way they want us to play. We, the consumers, are being forced to play the game they want us to play, even though we are the ones paying S-E!
And yes, I do understand it's S-E's game. And yes, they are free to implement their game the way they want. But their game will cease to be relevant if consumers shun it and opt not to support it. S-E is beholden to the consumer for the success of the game. In that sense we are partners in our common goal to help it succeed. We do, or atleast should, have a say. Not so much in how the game is made, but rather on the value and level of enjoyment derived from the game.
In other words, consumers should be allowed to play a role they enjoy playing. Forcing a player to play a role (read, game) they do not enjoy playing, is akin to committing financial suicide. How is FORCING anyone to play a caster or healer, when they have always been a melee fighter, enjoy playing melee fighter, and have never had an interest in playing a caster or a healer, not an arrogant decision by S-E in telling that player "OH, You WILL play caster AND healer, even though you don't enjoy doing so, because we tell you to! Furthermore, we will make sure you play caster and healer because we WE WILL BE TAKING THE CHOICE AWAY FROM YOU NOT TO! We WILL be shutting down your melee fighting for the equivalent of a week, so that if you want to keep on playing for the remainder of the week, the only way you will be able to do so is by playing caster and/or healer.
So there! We are GOD, and GOD HAS SPOKEN!
Pffft ...
This was implimented to prevent players from getting to end game too fast. Because it's not there yet. However, it has the side effect that all have been talking about, with the forcing of players to do things.
one asspect of this that no one has said (or i have not read the post if they have) is that the system is actually going to make people do what the majority of the players will want you to do. what do i mean by this?
first the FFXIV job system makes it so when you switch jobs you select your skills from the list of all skills you available to you at that time (not all skills from other jobs can be used from my understanding), and to be an effectve player you will need to have more skills than just your job's skills [ yes i know once the game is out there will be alot of disscussions about that skill setups will be the best for each roll and there will be some poeple who will do strange things in these setups } but what i can tell you from all my years of MMO experiance is the player base will dictate what players need to be a good player, and amny people will not group with you, or not more than the first time, if the way you have setup your char does not work well.
That means that the player who only plays say PUG and has no cross class skills to equip will most likely not be effective as those who has the other skills and have a hard time to find groups to level when there are others who have the cross skills because that is what people will expect you to have. Now you can play a pure PUG fine and be a DD, but we know that most people will not want to group with you without other skills. Thus i see this syste in place for two reasons, 1 to ensure you develope a well rounded character, and 2 that you will end up with a char that is more acceptable by the majority of players and make your gaming experinace more ufun.
I know anyone who played FFXI will agree that when your looking for a group the first thing that was checked was the players subjob, what was it and was it at the correct level. if either of them was not what you wanted you didnt even send them a tell unless there was no other options, and if there was no others you sent a tell asking if they had xxx sub leveled and told them to switch and come pt if they did. needed a mage and what we find is only a Galka mage... unless you knew the player and knew they were merited for MP and INT and would be well geared most would just skip over them. This was a problem for many people any i know many people who quit FFXI because they could not get groups with the setup they wanted to play, and clearly without a leveled subjob could not get a group (nothing was forced by SE) because of how others looked at them. I really think that SE is trying to keep it so that this will be unlikely as unless you only play for 1.5hrs a day you will be semi forced to level other jobs and be closer to what will be expected by the other players
KogaDrake, again, the issue is not one of "the benefits" of diversifying your build. The issue is one of "choice."
Please stop raising this "S-E is doing this because they are sooo concerned about us gimping our characters and are out to help us from ourselves" excuse. If anything that should be insulting to all of us. S-E is not your daddy. I presume we are all big boys and girls and can decide for ourselves how we want to play the game. Unless S-E is going to be paying our subscription fee, we do not need, nor do we want, S-E to hold our hands and tell us how to play a game we will be paying with our money, out of our pockets, to play.
I don't know how much clearer that point can be made.
Furthermore, and truth be told, S-E is not doing this for some altruistic reason such as helping us from our dumb selves because "we minions can't figure out for ourselves that it would be obviously beneficial to diversify our skill set by leveling different jobs." The real and only reason they are doing this, is to control your level of progression. Do not dilute yourself into thinking otherwise. And the real crime in all of this is that it wouldn't be so bad if they admitted as much. But they don't. Because they know that it would be wrong to do that. So they mask it by pledging some altruistic reason such as looking out for the casual player or helping us to diversify our skill set by pushing this flawed system. Neither of which make any sense to any independent thinking individual who has not been brainwashed into the Final Fantasy fanboy club.
Think about it, how does the "casual player" argument even make any sense when there will always be players coming into the game at different times of the time spectrum, for years to come. In other words, how is this system going to help the casual player who starts the game two years from now over the hardcore player, or even another casual player who starts playing at launch? It doesn't. This would only make a modicum of sense if every player was starting the game at the same and no other players were allowed to join in after launch. But even then this wouldn't make sense. Why? Because hardcore players and casual players play a different game. They are not even in the same playing field.
As it pertains to diversifying our skillset? Come on, let's be honest with ourselves. Why in the heck should they, as a business entity even care about this? As a business all they should be concerned with, and indeed are concerned with, is cash flow. Repeat - Their bottom line is CASHFLOW. Trust me when I tell you, Sales and subscriptions is all that matters in the long run. And if you think differently, you sir are seriously gullible and hopelessly naive.
Done with this subject. If it isn't clear by now, it never will be. Peace and prosperity.
I'll preface my response by saying "I haven't been in beta yet". My client crashes, so it won't even launch to update...but that's another story. As for the topic at hand, the surplus system, I have to agree with several people on here. SE should not decide based on time or XP how long you should play each week for a game you pay for. If you get no XP (and therefore no reward for your effort...let's be honest...it IS effort) people are not going to sit around and oogle over the graphics and stumble around towns. After a very short while, you will "see" everything you can for your level, and this isn't Second Life...most of us have no desire to soak up the environment and do nothing useful in the game. I'd rather go play with my dogs more.
All of that aside, I see one looming issue which I haven't noticed anyone bring up that kinda overshadows this whole weekly XP cap nonsense. It's been said, no problem if you hit your cap for skill XP...just jump on another job and you can level skill XP for it. However, physical XP goes across characters, so once it's capped...no more forward advancement in "level" no matter what job you play. Now follow me here. Say I cap out my Archer for the week for both Skill & Physical XP. So I change over to Lancer to level Skill XP on it (keep in mind Physical XP was capped so no more level advancement). I join a party of "casual gamers". As we play, they continue to level in Physical XP while I am slowly left behind. My stats (controlled by physical XP) start to wane, and they decide I'm now too low for the party and kick me. My party basically levels beyond my ability to follow because of this mechanic. So...did SE implement a level sync feature like XI so that I won't be left behind?
I mean you can say that the "physical levels" aren't like XI or any other game, perhaps you don't think of levels in the same way in XIV...who knows? Remember I can't get in and only have the Google God to keep me appraised of how things work. But what I've read is physical level controls your attributes and stats, while skill level controls your abilities and weapon skills. When you boil it down physical level sounds exactly like every other MMO...you get a new level, you get a stat increase and your HP and MP generally go up. So...back to my party...if my stats lag behind, then mobs become harder as I fight in the party, and I'm no longer an efficient contributor compared to the other members...they'll kick me.
If SE wants to employ such a system to "force us to do other things", why not make crafting XP on a separate system, or even unrestrained. Then when folks hit their weekly physical XP cap for their adventuring jobs...they can still do something useful with their online time by working on crafting skills. From what I've read they work on the same "Fatigue" system (why call it surplus...surplus is extra stuff you can use...you can't use this "surplus" XP) so they would be physically capped as well. Is that incorrect?
Just a thought /shrug.
Ok, so here we are over a week into the open beta, and I'm curious. Anyone ACTUALLY PLAYING in the beta this entire week hit a surplus yet? I still see threads being made and shut down claiming its still there, but with one difference, lots of people who are playing say they haven't seen it at all. I'm one of those, my highest is physical lvl 19, conj 14, thrum 14, mar 8, pug 8, weaver 6 and I have yet to see any xp slowdown or 'surplus' xp hit me.
So yeah, I'm curious to find out from people who are still in game playing, do you see surplus? I say those still in game because those that played for 2 hours and quit obviously wouldn't have reached it during thier play time. Looking for good honest hard facts from the people who have the ability to know first hand in Open Beta.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
I'm not sure if this video has been linked in this thread yet, but I'm not going to read 13 pages* of "hurr durr durrrrr... I dunz understandz diz!"
If anyone is STILL having questions about the SURPLUS SYSTEM, someone has taken the time out to make this You Tube video for you. Enjoy!
FFXIV Tactics: Understanding the Fatigue System
If someone did post it, putting it here again for people who don't like to read the whole thread.
EDIT: 33 pages of it.*
"TO MICHAEL!"
I see this mostly as a clever attempt to keep their players from getting burnt out too quickly, and to prevent thier fanbase from becoming the red eyed, zombie-like shut-ins as you see in most other MMO's.
No offence meant to the red eyed, zombie-like shut-ins who are browsing this thread at the moment.
I agree...that video is excellent at going the lengths to explain the system, and made me realize the system is actually quite revolutionary and will take a little time to tweak to make it perfect.
Also, I lol'd at your "No offence"
Its interesting that you use the word "revolutionary". Since it is one of the first words flashed across the screen in the video.
Square should definitely hire the person who created the video for their North American P.R. department.
hahaha
Oh, I knew someone was going to pick up on that!!
.........
kudos?
Oh boy I can really feel how hard you hope you are right too!!!
OOOH you are getting me all excited! Sadly, I guess we will have to just wait and see ; ;
http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan
To be honest, it's the same thing that every other MMO (almost) does. They just did a terrible job with naming it.
With other MMOs, you have "rested" experience where you get double the xp for a certain amount of time if you don't play.
This is a 'fatigue' system where you get less xp for a certain amount of time if you do play.
Huh!?
In the former you are helping one group of people and leaving the other group alone to play the game at the normal pace. In in the latter you are hurting a group of people and leaving the other group alone to play the game at the normal pace.
Sorta different.