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The reason why long term progression is a very good thing.

trashburnintrashburnin Member Posts: 223

In a pvp mmorpg where much of the reward to be had from pvping is from finding players out in the world, farming mobs, raising spells.  The fact that players need to be out in the world for long periods of time and training their magic up with expensive reagents who can then be killed and looted and profited from, makes Darkfall an exciting game where going out into the world provides real risk vs reward.

 

Character progression is subconciously entertaining and keeps players playing.  When I "finish" my character in a game, the game somehow becomes more boring for me b/c I feel like I am wasting time and not progressing and at that point the only option is pvp, which can become boring if that is the only thing to do.  The day that a player "finishes" his character is the day he no longer has to be out in the world farming monster or training up magic and no longer provides the profitable reward incentive for players to go out in the world and pvp.

 

In a game like Darkfall, players would "finish" their character and log off, waiting for the next big pvp event or for their friends to be online, not many people will go out alone to pvp in Darkfall with how the game has changed.  The result is less players in the world and those players who have finished Darkfall character, playing Darkfall less and less and only comming back breifly when a new patch comes out or what have you because it is the variety of things you can do in DF that keeps people logged on for 16 hours a day (being a sandbox), only a few would be playing as much if all they had to do was pvp all day every day.

 

Naive players don't realise that reducing character progression or "grind" as some like to call it, isn't as good for the game as some might think.

 

It isn't true that nobody wants a grind, everyone wants a grind but they want it to be only so much that they can handle to compete with the best, which is pretty selfish and unrealistic because we all have different views on how much grind is needed.

 

Lots of people DO love long term character progression and there is a very good reason for it.  Those who want to reduce the grind are in fact those who would be unwittingly destroying the game.

 

Darkfalls problem is that it is such a good game that even people who don't like its core mechanics will play it for lack of a better game.  To those people who don't like long term progression or "grind", if you call it a "grind" its probably not something you enjoy, so why don't you find anothre game or stfu and suck it up like the rest of us because YOU are not the type of person who DF is meant for. 

 

the "grind" is only in your mind as those extra +100 hours you spent leveling your sword so you can do an extra +1 damage or training up that fire ward to 99 so you can take a whopping  .6 (thats POINT SIX) less damage from fire spells isn't really going to make the difference in 99% of your battles.

There is a rule in mmorpg that says, the longer the character progression, the longer the life of the game.

Moral of the story:  Be careful what you wish for ignoramuses.

Comments

  • HotjazzHotjazz Member UncommonPosts: 742

    Originally posted by trashburnin

    In a pvp mmorpg where much of the reward to be had from pvping is from finding players out in the world, farming mobs, raising spells.  The fact that players need to be out in the world for long periods of time and training their magic up with expensive reagents who can then be killed and looted and profited from, makes Darkfall an exciting game where going out into the world provides real risk vs reward.

     

    Character progression is subconciously entertaining and keeps players playing.  When I "finish" my character in a game, the game somehow becomes more boring for me b/c I feel like I am wasting time and not progressing and at that point the only option is pvp, which can become boring if that is the only thing to do.  The day that a player "finishes" his character is the day he no longer has to be out in the world farming monster or training up magic and no longer provides the profitable reward incentive for players to go out in the world and pvp.

     

    In a game like Darkfall, players would "finish" their character and log off, waiting for the next big pvp event or for their friends to be online, not many people will go out alone to pvp in Darkfall with how the game has changed.  The result is less players in the world and those players who have finished Darkfall character, playing Darkfall less and less and only comming back breifly when a new patch comes out or what have you because it is the variety of things you can do in DF that keeps people logged on for 16 hours a day (being a sandbox), only a few would be playing as much if all they had to do was pvp all day every day.

     

    Naive players don't realise that reducing character progression or "grind" as some like to call it, isn't as good for the game as some might think.

     

    It isn't true that nobody wants a grind, everyone wants a grind but they want it to be only so much that they can handle to compete with the best, which is pretty selfish and unrealistic because we all have different views on how much grind is needed.

     

    Lots of people DO love long term character progression and there is a very good reason for it.  Those who want to reduce the grind are in fact those who would be unwittingly destroying the game.

     

    Darkfalls problem is that it is such a good game that even people who don't like its core mechanics will play it for lack of a better game.  To those people who don't like long term progression or "grind", if you call it a "grind" its probably not something you enjoy, so why don't you find anothre game or stfu and suck it up like the rest of us because YOU are not the type of person who DF is meant for. 

     

    the "grind" is only in your mind as those extra +100 hours you spent leveling your sword so you can do an extra +1 damage or training up that fire ward to 99 so you can take a whopping  .6 (thats POINT SIX) less damage from fire spells isn't really going to make the difference in 99% of your battles.

    There is a rule in mmorpg that says, the longer the character progression, the longer the life of the game.

    Moral of the story:  Be careful what you wish for ignoramuses.

    Fair enough, but I got some questions.

     

    -You know Darkfall is a full loot mmo, and everytime you get killed you need to replace your gear. To replace your gear you need to kill NPCs, so why would it be less players in the world if the level grind was reduced?

     

    -What reward is it for a low level player to be attacked by a high level player, and what risk is it for a high level player to attak a low level player? With the huge level gap between new and vet players, I fail to see the risk vs reward.Do you think new players like the long time of risk while he tries to level his char to someday get his reward?

     

    -If character progression was subconciously entertaining and keeps players playing, why do we lose 90% of our players?

     

    -Have you met a player that quit DF because his char was pvp complete? On my server they are playing like madmen and telling all the low level to GSO. And It`s not the players with complete chars that comes back when AV release a new patch, it`s the players with an incomplete char hoping they don`t have to grind like a hamster to compete in pvp.

     

    -Yes the pvpers wait for the next big pvp event. The reason is simply because because we have 1000 players and the pvpers are bored running for hours to find pvp. If AV fixed village rewards and made sea fortress more often, we would have fought over those.

     

    -Why do the long term character progression have to be the pvp skills. Why can`t it be the crafting skills,  good gear or ships? Btw, Darkfall already have the long term skills for players like you. Go and level the repair skill. And no, it`s not variety that makes a player play DF for 16 hours. That`s just the daily hours you need to level your char.

     

    -How can you say lots of players like the huge grind (or long character progression as you call it), when we have 1000 active players on a server ment to hold 30000?

     

    Yes you are right, I play DF for a lack of a better game. I`m and old school player and played UO from 98-03. I love full-loot pvp, and I thought DF was ment for players like me. Sadly I was wrong as DF clearly is ment for a few hundred full -loot PVE players. But have no fear, I will leave if DF2010 don`t deliver. And don`t even try to tell me a high level char isn`t that much better than a low level char. I have a  char with 94 vitality and almost all skills at a high level. I know how much better my char is compared to a low level char.

     

    Ohh, and my only wish is that we get 20000 new pvpers on my server.

  • BigMangoBigMango Member UncommonPosts: 1,821

    OP, I agree with you that long term progression - character development - is a good thing.

    Unfortunately, Darkfall is using this as an excuse for lack of content, and this is the game's problem. If Darkfall was a sanbox the long term progression wouldn't be an issue.

    After 2 years of the game being live we still have an almost empty box..... where is the sand? Ahhhh yes! We are getting FUN hulks! image

  • HotjazzHotjazz Member UncommonPosts: 742

    Originally posted by BigMango

    OP, I agree with you that long term progression - character development - is a good thing.

    Unfortunately, Darkfall is using this as an excuse for lack of content, and this is the game's problem. If Darkfall was a sanbox the long term progression wouldn't be an issue.

    After 2 years of the game being live we still have an almost empty box..... where is the sand? Ahhhh yes! We are getting FUN hulks! image

    Yay another one.

     

    Give me the name of a few mmos with more pvp content than Darkfall. 

     

    Come on, I dare you.

  • thinktank001thinktank001 Member UncommonPosts: 2,144

    Originally posted by trashburnin

    Grind is good game content.

     

    I won't disagree that gind can be good, but for Darkfall it isn't.  The current skill grind doesn't seem too bad, but the fact is that the current grind to be PvP viable is too high.  The game would be much better off with a limit to the number of skills that can be " active ".

     

  • trashburnintrashburnin Member Posts: 223

    Originally posted by BigMango

    OP, I agree with you that long term progression - character development - is a good thing.

    Unfortunately, Darkfall is using this as an excuse for lack of content, and this is the game's problem. If Darkfall was a sanbox the long term progression wouldn't be an issue.

    After 2 years of the game being live we still have an almost empty box..... where is the sand? Ahhhh yes! We are getting FUN hulks! image

    they comming w/ more sand, they said they wanted to have the pvp mechanics down first then they are working more on the sandbox and pve elements and finally economy for those trader freaks.

  • BigMangoBigMango Member UncommonPosts: 1,821

    Originally posted by trashburnin

    Originally posted by BigMango

    OP, I agree with you that long term progression - character development - is a good thing.

    Unfortunately, Darkfall is using this as an excuse for lack of content, and this is the game's problem. If Darkfall was a sanbox the long term progression wouldn't be an issue.

    After 2 years of the game being live we still have an almost empty box..... where is the sand? Ahhhh yes! We are getting FUN hulks! image

    they comming w/ more sand, they said they wanted to have the pvp mechanics down first then they are working more on the sandbox and pve elements and finally economy for those trader freaks.

     

    Yep sounds great... this is what we have been waiting for for 2 years...

    But it always takes them 6 to 9+months to add a couple new features to the game. We are almost in September 2010, the last game update was 9 months ago.... :/

    Why can't they patch in a smaller feature or mob or dungeon every 1 or 2 months to keep the people entertained for the long haul? Why do we have to wait 9 months to have fun for 1 or 2 months with the new content and then we need to wait for 7 more months to see the game progressing again?

    You can release once or twice per year when you have a complete game, but not with an unfinished game like Darkfall.

  • BigMangoBigMango Member UncommonPosts: 1,821

    Originally posted by Hotjazz

    Originally posted by BigMango

    OP, I agree with you that long term progression - character development - is a good thing.

    Unfortunately, Darkfall is using this as an excuse for lack of content, and this is the game's problem. If Darkfall was a sanbox the long term progression wouldn't be an issue.

    After 2 years of the game being live we still have an almost empty box..... where is the sand? Ahhhh yes! We are getting FUN hulks! image

    Yay another one.

     

    Give me the name of a few mmos with more pvp content than Darkfall. 

     

    Come on, I dare you.

     

    That's the problem.

    Darkfall was hyped by AV as a sanbox mmorpg and pvp is only 1 of the features in a sandbox ... and this is what we had for 2 YEARS now.

    Currently Darkfall is not a sandbox, it's only a pvp mmorpg, which equals FPS + character progression. And the player numbers have shown us that this formula just doesn't work:

    1) an mmorpg is more than this and so for mmorpg players FPS + char progression with no content is not enough.

    2) most pvp players are just there for the FPS fun and can't stand the char progression of an mmorpg, especially when this progression is based on almost no content -> so we are back to point 1.

    Result: Darkfall is a failed FPS and failed mmorpg as it is neither one nor the (complete) other.

     

    Yes, it has the potenial to be the best game, but when it was released in an unfinished beta state and when it always takes 6 to 9 months to get an update we can already see that it will take 2 or 3 more years for it to get to where it should have been 2 years ago.

    ...And with the new games coming out, in 2 or 3 years Darkfall will just be an old game no one other that the couple die hards will be playing anymore. Seriously, if gfx engine wasn't a major issue everyone would still be playing DAoC & Co.

     

    (and regarding my above gfx point, don't tell me about the DX11 engine that should be coming we don't know when. The latest lotro shots have already shown us how dx11 can add almost nothing to the graphics. If it was anything serious, the AV marketing would already have shown us some shots of what is to come, but currently they don't even have much to show regarding the expansion that was supposed to come out in June).

  • TolmosTolmos Member UncommonPosts: 141

    I suppose on one hand I can appreciate good character progression. Indeed, if Darkfall did not have its legendary grind, it would basically be Mount and Blade with a crappy combat system. Still, I cannot agree with your overall point of view of the game.

    Darkfall was originally meant to be a pure PvP game that offered zero grind, out of the box competition, and amazing pvp situations. It really doesn't fulfill too many of these promises. Your point is that without long character progression, a game will die early. Look at the game Shadowbane. Shadowbane's character progression was a week for new players an less than 2 days for veterans who had resources available to them. Create a character on newbie island. Be level 10 within 2 hours (at WORST). Leave newbie island and enter a power level group. Generally your first group (if you didn't wipe) got you to 35 or 40. After that you would move to a new group that would take you up to 60. Finally, you'd move to your guards group to go from 60-75 (if you wanted, though you were completely viable at 60). Each of these groups would take less than 5 hours to complete their task.

    So why did Shadowbane stay open for over 6 years? Because it had CONTENT. When you hit max level you joined in Sieges, you fought for mines (a new mine opened up almost every hour. There was ALWAYS a mine fight to attend). You never had to grind for gear unless you were a min-maxer who wanted only the best of the best (which gave some odd 5% total increase in stats for who knows how much work... but some people wanted it!). Roaming PvP. Etc etc. Now, Darkfall is supposedly a PvP game... right? Why does it not fall back on PvP related content rather than expecting players to PvE grind against mobs all day where the most intricate quest is "kill 200 of this" of "pick up x number of that". Beating mobs all day with R0 weapons to me does not constitute fun "character progression".

    Truth is, Darkfall markets itself as the opposite of what it is. Yes, it does have PvP available... but not many players make it up to that point. Their forums are littered with players who have basically given up because they came being told something that was not at all true. Darkfall is a PvE oriented game with the ability to grief. IF you make it through the countless hours of carebearing, you will get to the PvP. Sure you can go hit some dude right out of the box and die immediately (if you want to call that competitive PvP), but then again you can do that in World of Warcraft too. No one says anything about you having a chance to win, but you are certainly allowed to participate. :-P

    Darkfall is the PvE alternative to Mount and Blade Warband's multiplayer system. It was an amazing concept that fell apart due to what you consider to be the best part of the game. Luckily for you, there are very few people left in the game who feel differently than you do; the majority up and left already. Of course, there are also very few people left in the game at all...

  • ArquitetoArquiteto Member Posts: 228

    Originally posted by Hotjazz

    Originally posted by trashburnin

    In a pvp mmorpg where much of the reward to be had from pvping is from finding players out in the world, farming mobs, raising spells.  The fact that players need to be out in the world for long periods of time and training their magic up with expensive reagents who can then be killed and looted and profited from, makes Darkfall an exciting game where going out into the world provides real risk vs reward.

     

    Character progression is subconciously entertaining and keeps players playing.  When I "finish" my character in a game, the game somehow becomes more boring for me b/c I feel like I am wasting time and not progressing and at that point the only option is pvp, which can become boring if that is the only thing to do.  The day that a player "finishes" his character is the day he no longer has to be out in the world farming monster or training up magic and no longer provides the profitable reward incentive for players to go out in the world and pvp.

     

    In a game like Darkfall, players would "finish" their character and log off, waiting for the next big pvp event or for their friends to be online, not many people will go out alone to pvp in Darkfall with how the game has changed.  The result is less players in the world and those players who have finished Darkfall character, playing Darkfall less and less and only comming back breifly when a new patch comes out or what have you because it is the variety of things you can do in DF that keeps people logged on for 16 hours a day (being a sandbox), only a few would be playing as much if all they had to do was pvp all day every day.

     

    Naive players don't realise that reducing character progression or "grind" as some like to call it, isn't as good for the game as some might think.

     

    It isn't true that nobody wants a grind, everyone wants a grind but they want it to be only so much that they can handle to compete with the best, which is pretty selfish and unrealistic because we all have different views on how much grind is needed.

     

    Lots of people DO love long term character progression and there is a very good reason for it.  Those who want to reduce the grind are in fact those who would be unwittingly destroying the game.

     

    Darkfalls problem is that it is such a good game that even people who don't like its core mechanics will play it for lack of a better game.  To those people who don't like long term progression or "grind", if you call it a "grind" its probably not something you enjoy, so why don't you find anothre game or stfu and suck it up like the rest of us because YOU are not the type of person who DF is meant for. 

     

    the "grind" is only in your mind as those extra +100 hours you spent leveling your sword so you can do an extra +1 damage or training up that fire ward to 99 so you can take a whopping  .6 (thats POINT SIX) less damage from fire spells isn't really going to make the difference in 99% of your battles.

    There is a rule in mmorpg that says, the longer the character progression, the longer the life of the game.

    Moral of the story:  Be careful what you wish for ignoramuses.

    Fair enough, but I got some questions.

     

    -You know Darkfall is a full loot mmo, and everytime you get killed you need to replace your gear. To replace your gear you need to kill NPCs, so why would it be less players in the world if the level grind was reduced?

     

    -What reward is it for a low level player to be attacked by a high level player, and what risk is it for a high level player to attak a low level player? With the huge level gap between new and vet players, I fail to see the risk vs reward.Do you think new players like the long time of risk while he tries to level his char to someday get his reward?

     

    -If character progression was subconciously entertaining and keeps players playing, why do we lose 90% of our players?

     

    -Have you met a player that quit DF because his char was pvp complete? On my server they are playing like madmen and telling all the low level to GSO. And It`s not the players with complete chars that comes back when AV release a new patch, it`s the players with an incomplete char hoping they don`t have to grind like a hamster to compete in pvp.

     

    -Yes the pvpers wait for the next big pvp event. The reason is simply because because we have 1000 players and the pvpers are bored running for hours to find pvp. If AV fixed village rewards and made sea fortress more often, we would have fought over those.

     

    -Why do the long term character progression have to be the pvp skills. Why can`t it be the crafting skills,  good gear or ships? Btw, Darkfall already have the long term skills for players like you. Go and level the repair skill. And no, it`s not variety that makes a player play DF for 16 hours. That`s just the daily hours you need to level your char.

     

    -How can you say lots of players like the huge grind (or long character progression as you call it), when we have 1000 active players on a server ment to hold 30000?

     

    Yes you are right, I play DF for a lack of a better game. I`m and old school player and played UO from 98-03. I love full-loot pvp, and I thought DF was ment for players like me. Sadly I was wrong as DF clearly is ment for a few hundred full -loot PVE players. But have no fear, I will leave if DF2010 don`t deliver. And don`t even try to tell me a high level char isn`t that much better than a low level char. I have a  char with 94 vitality and almost all skills at a high level. I know how much better my char is compared to a low level char.

     

    Ohh, and my only wish is that we get 20000 new pvpers on my server.

    Wow you are one of the few vets to actually admit this in public. I applaud you for it. Seriously.

    AV failed to implement any effective pvp content.

     

    Villages are a joke. Great my clan get all the gold and for me to get it I need to find an SG and have him waste his time to calculate how much I should be getting. Most villages are ghost towns that are just used as bind spots for quick travel.

    Trade Routes are possibly the most pointless thing in the game. I have never once had anyone say they were going to get a group to go run it. Other than the first few weeks they were put ingame. Why would anyone want to risk a bunch of their own money to receive rewards that wouldn' t cover the gear and initial investment.

    Siege mechanics are some of the worse I have ever seen in a game. One man clans sieging other clans so that they do not have to risk any of their own holdings. Then there is the allying of a dozen clans 2 minutes before sieges because people are so hungry for pvp that they do not care who they help. 30 man vet clans owning half a dozen cities or hamlets.

    We will not even go into the fact that seiges are nearly unplayable if each side brings more than 100. What happened to the server being able to support battles consisting of thousands of players.

    Naval combat is a joke. Someone swimming in the water can board your ship in about 2 seconds cast and cast a spell that knocks half of the people off there boats. Its sad that you have to worry more about swimmers than you do a massive ship with cannons during a battle at sea.

    Again other than the sea fortress(10 day cooldown timer) and the kracken there is no reason to use a ship.

    The alignment system is another complete joke. You recover months worth of slaying blues by taking an alt to a chaos stone and gank/reviving him for  a couple hours.

    I stay in hopes that DF2010 will be when AV smartens up. To be honest I will probably unsub until June of 2011 when the main part of DF 2010 is released.

    A game is not in a good state when you feel bad for a really excited new player who has yet to realize that almost all his gaming expectations will soon be crushed by the Beta that is Darkfall.

  • BlindchanceBlindchance Member UncommonPosts: 1,112

    Grind is nothing else then a lazy way to keeping people playing in a game where game content is to scarce to entertain them in long run. Devs think about it as the cheapest way of keeping your subs coming and if you are fool you pay for it.

    DF is trying to be different and doesn't follow to popular path of a theme park MMO, so it has been stripped from the usual game content like quests lines, raids build around x levels and gear grind. Which is a great step in the right direction of a dynamic world with a long term game content. The shame is that except shallow conquest mode it doesn't offer anything what would make the game world feel alive. When it comes to some features DF is more backward then any other modern MMO.

    The OP says that grind is neccesary, because it keeps people out of the cities, playing and killing mobs so the the only really entertaining game content can be triggered: pvp. He says that grind is a must as people need to have something to achieve in the game, a goal to reach. Otherwise they get bored and they log in only to pvp with friends and huge pvp events like sieges and Sea Towers battles. 

    Is grind really a necessary evil to have people online, playing the game ? I don't think so. How about actual enjoyable game content ? A dynamic game world, with in-deepth conquest system and economy.  Agon in which you need to fight in order to survive and prosper as a player or a clan, not grind to be able to fight ?

    If you want to keep people of the cities so pvp can happen give them a reason to do so. All of us need gold, equipment, food, mounts, herbs, ore, wood,  generally speaking variety of neccesary resources. In some many cases you don't need to move your ass 200 meters from your city to get them.

    Where are points of interests outside the cites ?  Supernodes like mines, farms, wood yards out in the wilderness. Just take a look out there, you can find abandoned mines, farms, ports, caves, little settlements, lately introduced player villages. Most of those locations serve NO PURPOSE at all, they just stand there, empty or in the best case have a mob spawn or a symbolic 400 gold per hour.

    Last time when I checked, iron, high quality wood, or leather can't be found everywhere just waiting to be picked up, yet in DF you soon be able to dig out even the most precious metals in your garden. AV is missing out the best opportunities for pvp hot spots and point of interests.

    Is it really better that a player can -most likely AFK - mine resources everywhere for long hours instead of competing with other clans for conquerable point of interests outside the cites ? Can't afford conquering it, kill the NPC guards, break through the door ( the owners should get a warning at this point ) and steal as much you can before they will show up to defend it. Too afraid of that risk ? Go far away in the wilderness and mine in the traditonal way.

    Did I mention you can't get all resources in your region ? You need to trade them in another region and actually transport them back and forth as there is no global banking. Isn't it a great opportunity for clan member or mercaneries to protect your carvan, maybe spiced up by a treason, a spy and an ambush ? Guess what some resources can be find mostly on the four little continets. Let it be a type of high quality wood to build ships, rare herbs for potions or rare metals or coal. So now  you actually have a purpose for ships, except one week only artificially forced on you events like Sea Towers.

    Have I mentioned conquarable trade towns - the only places where you are allowed to set up your NPC shop and sell your goods ( guess what another history insparied idea ). If you conquer a trade town, you can set  up taxes on all the prices there.

    Yeah you are right, lets forget what a sandbox game with a conquest mode can deliever, after all you prefer your mindless grind game with a static game world.

     

     

     

  • ArquitetoArquiteto Member Posts: 228

    Originally posted by Blindchance

    Grind is nothing else then a lazy way to keeping people playing in a game where game content is to scarce to entertain them in long run. Devs think about it as the cheapest way of keeping your subs coming and if you are fool you pay for it.

    DF is trying to be different and doesn't follow to popular path of a theme park MMO, so it has been stripped from the usual game content like quests lines, raids build around x levels and gear grind. Which is a great step in the right direction of a dynamic world with a long term game content. The shame is that except shallow conquest mode it doesn't offer anything what would make the game world feel alive. When it comes to some features DF is more backward then any other modern MMO.

    The OP says that grind is neccesary, because it keeps people out of the cities, playing and killing mobs so the the only really entertaining game content can be triggered: pvp. He says that grind is a must as people need to have something to achieve in the game, a goal to reach. Otherwise they get bored and they log in only to pvp with friends and huge pvp events like sieges and Sea Towers battles. 

    Is grind really a necessary evil to have people online, playing the game ? I don't think so. How about actual enjoyable game content ? A dynamic game world, with in-deepth conquest system and economy.  Agon in which you need to fight in order to survive and prosper as a player or a clan, not grind to be able to fight ?

    If you want to keep people of the cities so pvp can happen give them a reason to do so. All of us need gold, equipment, food, mounts, herbs, ore, wood,  generally speaking variety of neccesary resources. In some many cases you don't need to move your ass 200 meters from your city to get them.

    Where are points of interests outside the cites ?  Supernodes like mines, farms, wood yards out in the wilderness. Just take a look out there, you can find abandoned mines, farms, ports, caves, little settlements, lately introduced player villages. Most of those locations serve NO PURPOSE at all, they just stand there, empty or in the best case have a mob spawn or a symbolic 400 gold per hour.

    Last time when I checked, iron, high quality wood, or leather can't be found everywhere just waiting to be picked up, yet in DF you soon be able to dig out even the most precious metals in your garden. AV is missing out the best opportunities for pvp hot spots and point of interests.

    Is it really better that a player can -most likely AFK - mine resources everywhere for long hours instead of competing with other clans for conquerable point of interests outside the cites ? Can't afford conquering it, kill the NPC guards, break through the door ( the owners should get a warning at this point ) and steal as much you can before they will show up to defend it. Too afraid of that risk ? Go far away in the wilderness and mine in the traditonal way.

    Did I mention you can't get all resources in your region ? You need to trade them in another region and actually transport them back and forth as there is no global banking. Isn't it a great opportunity for clan member or mercaneries to protect your carvan, maybe spiced up by a treason, a spy and an ambush ? Guess what some resources can be find mostly on the four little continets. Let it be a type of high quality wood to build ships, rare herbs for potions or rare metals or coal. So now  you actually have a purpose for ships, except one week only artificially forced on you events like Sea Towers.

    Have I mentioned conquarable trade towns - the only places where you are allowed to set up your NPC shop and sell your goods ( guess what another history insparied idea ). If you conquer a trade town, you can set  up taxes on all the prices there.

    Yeah you are right, lets forget what a sandbox game with a conquest mode can deliever, after all you prefer your mindless grind game with a static game world.

     

     

     

    Fantastic post , but it made me sad because AV had over 7 years of development time and none of these came to mind.

  • DarthRaidenDarthRaiden Member UncommonPosts: 4,333

    Originally posted by Blindchance

    Grind is nothing else then a lazy way to keeping people playing in a game where game content is to scarce to entertain them in long run. Devs think about it as the cheapest way of keeping your subs coming and if you are fool you pay for it.

    DF is trying to be different and doesn't follow to popular path of a theme park MMO, so it has been stripped from the usual game content like quests lines, raids build around x levels and gear grind. Which is a great step in the right direction of a dynamic world with a long term game content. The shame is that except shallow conquest mode it doesn't offer anything what would make the game world feel alive. When it comes to some features DF is more backward then any other modern MMO.

    The OP says that grind is neccesary, because it keeps people out of the cities, playing and killing mobs so the the only really entertaining game content can be triggered: pvp. He says that grind is a must as people need to have something to achieve in the game, a goal to reach. Otherwise they get bored and they log in only to pvp with friends and huge pvp events like sieges and Sea Towers battles. 

    Is grind really a necessary evil to have people online, playing the game ? I don't think so. How about actual enjoyable game content ? A dynamic game world, with in-deepth conquest system and economy.  Agon in which you need to fight in order to survive and prosper as a player or a clan, not grind to be able to fight ?

    If you want to keep people of the cities so pvp can happen give them a reason to do so. All of us need gold, equipment, food, mounts, herbs, ore, wood,  generally speaking variety of neccesary resources. In some many cases you don't need to move your ass 200 meters from your city to get them.

    Where are points of interests outside the cites ?  Supernodes like mines, farms, wood yards out in the wilderness. Just take a look out there, you can find abandoned mines, farms, ports, caves, little settlements, lately introduced player villages. Most of those locations serve NO PURPOSE at all, they just stand there, empty or in the best case have a mob spawn or a symbolic 400 gold per hour.

    Last time when I checked, iron, high quality wood, or leather can't be found everywhere just waiting to be picked up, yet in DF you soon be able to dig out even the most precious metals in your garden. AV is missing out the best opportunities for pvp hot spots and point of interests.

    Is it really better that a player can -most likely AFK - mine resources everywhere for long hours instead of competing with other clans for conquerable point of interests outside the cites ? Can't afford conquering it, kill the NPC guards, break through the door ( the owners should get a warning at this point ) and steal as much you can before they will show up to defend it. Too afraid of that risk ? Go far away in the wilderness and mine in the traditonal way.

    Did I mention you can't get all resources in your region ? You need to trade them in another region and actually transport them back and forth as there is no global banking. Isn't it a great opportunity for clan member or mercaneries to protect your carvan, maybe spiced up by a treason, a spy and an ambush ? Guess what some resources can be find mostly on the four little continets. Let it be a type of high quality wood to build ships, rare herbs for potions or rare metals or coal. So now  you actually have a purpose for ships, except one week only artificially forced on you events like Sea Towers.

    Have I mentioned conquarable trade towns - the only places where you are allowed to set up your NPC shop and sell your goods ( guess what another history insparied idea ). If you conquer a trade town, you can set  up taxes on all the prices there.

    Yeah you are right, lets forget what a sandbox game with a conquest mode can deliever, after all you prefer your mindless grind game with a static game world.

     

     

     

    Ok some of your thoughts have their merit and sound logical but there is a 'but' ...

    My experience with PvP'r in every sandbox game that i played is as follows..

    PvP players enters my clan and first question is what is required to make me fastest possible PvP ready ..second question ..where can i find players to pvp ( the usual 100 invitations to duel aside-even tho i state multiple times i do not PvP for epeen purposes).

    So time passes the player is PvP ready and can take on anyone..now you would think he is a big asset to the clan ..but waht happens ?  Most of the time he is in one spot with as many other PvP'r and do nothing else then showing epeen through duels ..ok in occasional sieges he is of course the top gun ..but usually  PvP'r are lost for the "everyday jobs" like hunting mobs and ressources to get the gear he ofcourse loves - not only that he wants of course the top notch quality ..

    Long story short ..you wouldn't get PvP'r outside of  towns for the everyday clan work jobs  if you let them the option and freedom to stay home.. a empirical value of mine..

    About making the world more rich and implement more complexity, yea it is desirable and is on the way with every expac the world becomes more alive..

    -----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
    $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
    -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!

    "There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)

  • jimmyman99jimmyman99 Member UncommonPosts: 3,221

    Originally posted by Hotjazz

    Originally posted by trashburnin

    In a pvp mmorpg where much of the reward to be had from pvping is from finding players out in the world, farming mobs, raising spells.  The fact that players need to be out in the world for long periods of time and training their magic up with expensive reagents who can then be killed and looted and profited from, makes Darkfall an exciting game where going out into the world provides real risk vs reward.

     

    Character progression is subconciously entertaining and keeps players playing.  When I "finish" my character in a game, the game somehow becomes more boring for me b/c I feel like I am wasting time and not progressing and at that point the only option is pvp, which can become boring if that is the only thing to do.  The day that a player "finishes" his character is the day he no longer has to be out in the world farming monster or training up magic and no longer provides the profitable reward incentive for players to go out in the world and pvp.

     

    In a game like Darkfall, players would "finish" their character and log off, waiting for the next big pvp event or for their friends to be online, not many people will go out alone to pvp in Darkfall with how the game has changed.  The result is less players in the world and those players who have finished Darkfall character, playing Darkfall less and less and only comming back breifly when a new patch comes out or what have you because it is the variety of things you can do in DF that keeps people logged on for 16 hours a day (being a sandbox), only a few would be playing as much if all they had to do was pvp all day every day.

     

    Naive players don't realise that reducing character progression or "grind" as some like to call it, isn't as good for the game as some might think.

     

    It isn't true that nobody wants a grind, everyone wants a grind but they want it to be only so much that they can handle to compete with the best, which is pretty selfish and unrealistic because we all have different views on how much grind is needed.

     

    Lots of people DO love long term character progression and there is a very good reason for it.  Those who want to reduce the grind are in fact those who would be unwittingly destroying the game.

     

    Darkfalls problem is that it is such a good game that even people who don't like its core mechanics will play it for lack of a better game.  To those people who don't like long term progression or "grind", if you call it a "grind" its probably not something you enjoy, so why don't you find anothre game or stfu and suck it up like the rest of us because YOU are not the type of person who DF is meant for. 

     

    the "grind" is only in your mind as those extra +100 hours you spent leveling your sword so you can do an extra +1 damage or training up that fire ward to 99 so you can take a whopping  .6 (thats POINT SIX) less damage from fire spells isn't really going to make the difference in 99% of your battles.

    There is a rule in mmorpg that says, the longer the character progression, the longer the life of the game.

    Moral of the story:  Be careful what you wish for ignoramuses.

    Fair enough, but I got some questions.

     

    -You know Darkfall is a full loot mmo, and everytime you get killed you need to replace your gear. To replace your gear you need to kill NPCs, so why would it be less players in the world if the level grind was reduced?

     

    -What reward is it for a low level player to be attacked by a high level player, and what risk is it for a high level player to attak a low level player? With the huge level gap between new and vet players, I fail to see the risk vs reward.Do you think new players like the long time of risk while he tries to level his char to someday get his reward?

     

    -If character progression was subconciously entertaining and keeps players playing, why do we lose 90% of our players?

     

    -Have you met a player that quit DF because his char was pvp complete? On my server they are playing like madmen and telling all the low level to GSO. And It`s not the players with complete chars that comes back when AV release a new patch, it`s the players with an incomplete char hoping they don`t have to grind like a hamster to compete in pvp.

     

    -Yes the pvpers wait for the next big pvp event. The reason is simply because because we have 1000 players and the pvpers are bored running for hours to find pvp. If AV fixed village rewards and made sea fortress more often, we would have fought over those.

     

    -Why do the long term character progression have to be the pvp skills. Why can`t it be the crafting skills,  good gear or ships? Btw, Darkfall already have the long term skills for players like you. Go and level the repair skill. And no, it`s not variety that makes a player play DF for 16 hours. That`s just the daily hours you need to level your char.

     

    -How can you say lots of players like the huge grind (or long character progression as you call it), when we have 1000 active players on a server ment to hold 30000?

     

    Yes you are right, I play DF for a lack of a better game. I`m and old school player and played UO from 98-03. I love full-loot pvp, and I thought DF was ment for players like me. Sadly I was wrong as DF clearly is ment for a few hundred full -loot PVE players. But have no fear, I will leave if DF2010 don`t deliver. And don`t even try to tell me a high level char isn`t that much better than a low level char. I have a  char with 94 vitality and almost all skills at a high level. I know how much better my char is compared to a low level char.

     

    Ohh, and my only wish is that we get 20000 new pvpers on my server.

    Well said.image

    I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
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  • BlindchanceBlindchance Member UncommonPosts: 1,112

    Originally posted by DarthRaiden

    Originally posted by Blindchance

    (...)

    Ok some of your thoughts have their merit and sound logical but there is a 'but' ...

    My experience with PvP'r in every sandbox game that i played is as follows..

    PvP players enters my clan and first question is what is required to make me fastest possible PvP ready ..second question ..where can i find players to pvp ( the usual 100 invitations to duel aside-even tho i state multiple times i do not PvP for epeen purposes).

    So time passes the player is PvP ready and can take on anyone..now you would think he is a big asset to the clan ..but waht happens ?  Most of the time he is in one spot with as many other PvP'r and do nothing else then showing epeen through duels ..ok in occasional sieges he is of course the top gun ..but usually  PvP'r are lost for the "everyday jobs" like hunting mobs and ressources to get the gear he ofcourse loves - not only that he wants of course the top notch quality ..

    Long story short ..you wouldn't get PvP'r outside of  towns if you let them them option and freedom to stay home.. a empirical value of mine..

     It is all about understanding how players think and building the game mechanics around it. Players need gear, so they need resources to craft them. That's something they can't avoid as gear breaks, they lose it in battle. Therefore resources are more desirable then anything else in the game. In a broken system like DF is, money no real value, but resources...that's another thing. 

    So if you give players a choice:

    - to mine that ore for 3 hours straight, watching as your character is grinding on on endless loop

    or

    -to pvp for a mine which allows them to mine the same ore in let me say 20 minutes

     

    Tell me who will chose the first option ? None, who can afford it . Of course you should leave that choice avaliable for people who don't have gear or strong enough clan to take on such a pvp challange.  People are reward driven, as long you understand what's a worthy reward, you can exploit it to make them do what you want. 

     

    Later on you can expand this system, introduce a way of leveling those super node villiages, mines, woodyards by pve and pvp quests from a local NPC, defending them from challenges and raids. You can introduce NPC population to them, level of prosperity, taxes etc. Posibilites are endless, life give you all the inspiration needed.

    All necessary resources are already in the game: conquerable city/hamlet bind spots, empty settlements, caves ( mines ), camps ( wood yards, hunting villages ), farms ( few perfect examples you can admire in Mercia ). You have buildings with destructable doors ( player villages ), whats a problem to place a super node inside a building looking like a mine or even place a group of mobs defending farm fields  from anyone who is not in the clan who owns the farm ? What's the problem to introduce local or even regional banking ?

    Sure it may be a big project for a small company like AV, but definitely a better choice in long run then wasting time on quests, Sea Towers, chaos chests, wondering wildlife, fun hulks, Nexus, slot machines, trade routes, NPC factions ( WoW anyone ? ) or any other design flop by AV.

    It creates a breathing world, which feels natural and alive and gives players more ways to change it.

    I personally don't even think any more that this kind of vision is beyond abilites of AV designers and programmers. After the recent visit of Syncaine in Greece, I start to think that Tasos is pleased with the way DF is right now and is not really interested in creating a sandbox game driven by a logical cause and effect.

     

  • DarthRaidenDarthRaiden Member UncommonPosts: 4,333

    Originally posted by jimmyman99

    Originally posted by Hotjazz


    Originally posted by trashburnin

    In a pvp mmorpg where much of the reward to be had from pvping is from finding players out in the world, farming mobs, raising spells.  The fact that players need to be out in the world for long periods of time and training their magic up with expensive reagents who can then be killed and looted and profited from, makes Darkfall an exciting game where going out into the world provides real risk vs reward.

     

    Character progression is subconciously entertaining and keeps players playing.  When I "finish" my character in a game, the game somehow becomes more boring for me b/c I feel like I am wasting time and not progressing and at that point the only option is pvp, which can become boring if that is the only thing to do.  The day that a player "finishes" his character is the day he no longer has to be out in the world farming monster or training up magic and no longer provides the profitable reward incentive for players to go out in the world and pvp.

     

    In a game like Darkfall, players would "finish" their character and log off, waiting for the next big pvp event or for their friends to be online, not many people will go out alone to pvp in Darkfall with how the game has changed.  The result is less players in the world and those players who have finished Darkfall character, playing Darkfall less and less and only comming back breifly when a new patch comes out or what have you because it is the variety of things you can do in DF that keeps people logged on for 16 hours a day (being a sandbox), only a few would be playing as much if all they had to do was pvp all day every day.

     

    Naive players don't realise that reducing character progression or "grind" as some like to call it, isn't as good for the game as some might think.

     

    It isn't true that nobody wants a grind, everyone wants a grind but they want it to be only so much that they can handle to compete with the best, which is pretty selfish and unrealistic because we all have different views on how much grind is needed.

     

    Lots of people DO love long term character progression and there is a very good reason for it.  Those who want to reduce the grind are in fact those who would be unwittingly destroying the game.

     

    Darkfalls problem is that it is such a good game that even people who don't like its core mechanics will play it for lack of a better game.  To those people who don't like long term progression or "grind", if you call it a "grind" its probably not something you enjoy, so why don't you find anothre game or stfu and suck it up like the rest of us because YOU are not the type of person who DF is meant for. 

     

    the "grind" is only in your mind as those extra +100 hours you spent leveling your sword so you can do an extra +1 damage or training up that fire ward to 99 so you can take a whopping  .6 (thats POINT SIX) less damage from fire spells isn't really going to make the difference in 99% of your battles.

    There is a rule in mmorpg that says, the longer the character progression, the longer the life of the game.

    Moral of the story:  Be careful what you wish for ignoramuses.

    Fair enough, but I got some questions.

     

    -You know Darkfall is a full loot mmo, and everytime you get killed you need to replace your gear. To replace your gear you need to kill NPCs, so why would it be less players in the world if the level grind was reduced?

     

    -What reward is it for a low level player to be attacked by a high level player, and what risk is it for a high level player to attak a low level player? With the huge level gap between new and vet players, I fail to see the risk vs reward.Do you think new players like the long time of risk while he tries to level his char to someday get his reward?

     

    -If character progression was subconciously entertaining and keeps players playing, why do we lose 90% of our players?

     

    -Have you met a player that quit DF because his char was pvp complete? On my server they are playing like madmen and telling all the low level to GSO. And It`s not the players with complete chars that comes back when AV release a new patch, it`s the players with an incomplete char hoping they don`t have to grind like a hamster to compete in pvp.

     

    -Yes the pvpers wait for the next big pvp event. The reason is simply because because we have 1000 players and the pvpers are bored running for hours to find pvp. If AV fixed village rewards and made sea fortress more often, we would have fought over those.

     

    -Why do the long term character progression have to be the pvp skills. Why can`t it be the crafting skills,  good gear or ships? Btw, Darkfall already have the long term skills for players like you. Go and level the repair skill. And no, it`s not variety that makes a player play DF for 16 hours. That`s just the daily hours you need to level your char.

     

    -How can you say lots of players like the huge grind (or long character progression as you call it), when we have 1000 active players on a server ment to hold 30000?

     

    Yes you are right, I play DF for a lack of a better game. I`m and old school player and played UO from 98-03. I love full-loot pvp, and I thought DF was ment for players like me. Sadly I was wrong as DF clearly is ment for a few hundred full -loot PVE players. But have no fear, I will leave if DF2010 don`t deliver. And don`t even try to tell me a high level char isn`t that much better than a low level char. I have a  char with 94 vitality and almost all skills at a high level. I know how much better my char is compared to a low level char.

     

    Ohh, and my only wish is that we get 20000 new pvpers on my server.

    Well said.image

    The "grind" has been addressed  noumerous times by AV.  Really its the most addressed  in several patches and  in posts. 

    You would think the easier the game became the more would join by that logic ..wrong !

    Seems character progression is not the issue...and the whine to end the "grind" never stops..

    -----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
    $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
    -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!

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  • BlindchanceBlindchance Member UncommonPosts: 1,112

    Originally posted by DarthRaiden

    The "grind" has been addressed  noumerous times by AV.  Really its the most addressed  in several patches and  in posts. 

    You would think the easier the game became the more would join by that logic ..wrong !

    Seems character progression is not the issue...

    The lack of content definitely is.

    You jump to conclusions without a logical relation. I am sure you have read many of posts by ex and actual DF's players. Grind was and is the main complaint. It stands between the players and the only game feature with any replayability and fun value: pvp.

    Long character progression is NOT a game content, if anything it just a poor attempt to hide lack of it. Sooner or later your char is going to be maxed out anyway so it would be reasonable to build game content which actually has replayability value. Player competition and interactions definitly do have such a value.

     

  • DarthRaidenDarthRaiden Member UncommonPosts: 4,333

    Originally posted by Blindchance

    Originally posted by DarthRaiden

    The "grind" has been addressed  noumerous times by AV.  Really its the most addressed  in several patches and  in posts. 

    You would think the easier the game became the more would join by that logic ..wrong !

    Seems character progression is not the issue...

    The lack of content definitely is.

    You jump to conclusions without a logical relation. I am sure you have read many of posts by ex and actual DF's players. Grind was and is the main complaint. It stands between the players and the only game feature with any replayability and fun value: pvp.

    Long character progression is NOT a game content, if anything it just a poor attempt to hide lack of it. Sooner or later your char is going to be maxed out anyway so it would be reasonable to build game content which actually has replayability value. Player competition and interactions definitly do have such a value.

     

    Exploring is fun, crafting is fun, boat trips are fun, PvE is fun..is just PvP'r seek for PvP only..heck they complained after the mob upgrades the mob should be easy targets to just stand there to get beaten so they can have easy results out of them..

    I know where you coming from and i support you wanting more rich mechanics but you be surprised what the resulting game would be  when we allow those who want "grind" taken away to make the game..

    This game would give you ready PvP char in few hours, portals to any spot of the map for easy travel, PvE disabled allto gether or just optional for "PvE freaks" and some dungeons to get the gear necause gathering and crafting is subpar playstyle compared to of course : PvP ..   

    Yes combat in Darkfall is very well done but the game needs to offer more ...shorter "grind" just help those who want to reach their  "1:1  heaven" faster...but exclusive 1:1 was never a feature in DF and never promised..

    -----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
    $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
    -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!

    "There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775

    Originally posted by DarthRaiden

    Originally posted by Blindchance

    Originally posted by DarthRaiden

    The "grind" has been addressed  noumerous times by AV.  Really its the most addressed  in several patches and  in posts. 

    You would think the easier the game became the more would join by that logic ..wrong !

    Seems character progression is not the issue...

    The lack of content definitely is.

    You jump to conclusions without a logical relation. I am sure you have read many of posts by ex and actual DF's players. Grind was and is the main complaint. It stands between the players and the only game feature with any replayability and fun value: pvp.

    Long character progression is NOT a game content, if anything it just a poor attempt to hide lack of it. Sooner or later your char is going to be maxed out anyway so it would be reasonable to build game content which actually has replayability value. Player competition and interactions definitly do have such a value.

     

    Exploring is fun, crafting is fun, boat trips are fun, PvE is fun..is just PvP'r seek for PvP only..heck they complained after the mob upgrades the mob should be easy targets to just stand there to get beaten so they can have easy results out of them..

    I know where you coming from and i support you wanting more rich mechanics but you be surprised what the resulting game would be  when we allow those who want "grind" taken away to make the game..

    This game would give you ready PvP char in few hours, portals to any spot of the map for easy travel, PvE disabled allto gether or just optional for "PvE freaks" and some dungeons to get the gear necause gathering and crafting is subpar playstyle compared to of course : PvP ..   

    Yes combat in Darkfall is very well done but the game needs to offer more ...shorter "grind" just help those who want to reach their  "1:1  heaven" faster...but exclusive 1:1 was never a feature in DF and never promised..

     I very honsetly think the ideal state for both those two different game play styles would require two different games, I dont think they can realistically play together. I dont mean pve vs pvp I mean fast skill progression vs long.

    I also understand the frustration of the people who want fast progression, they join a game seeing the entire skill progression system as just one long frustation tutorial so they deserve their own game where there is no skill progression whatsoever. I just dont want that game to be Darkfall.

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • Sid_ViciousSid_Vicious Member RarePosts: 2,177

    I love Darkfall's current long-term progression but when it was released it took new people 2-4 weeks just to get the second mana missile ring on average so that was just ridiculous. I am glad it is not that bad anymore . ..

     

    If you think about it though, long-term progression allows players who are not very good at the game experience roflstomping people. Take that away and it will be a lot harder for those Darkfall lovers to convince their terribad friends or wife with null gaming experience, etc. to play.

     

    Some people do need that edge to win.

     

    It is fine for the better players because you can take down someone with higher stats/skills. So its a win for everyone except for those who do not want to play long-term. Those who want a 'grind-free' FPS will just quit and whine because they don't want to play long-term.

     

    I don't care if they leave. The grind doesn't need to be reduced. We just need more sand in the box.

     

    Let the grind-whiners leave. They aren't going to stay anyways.

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  • HotjazzHotjazz Member UncommonPosts: 742

    Originally posted by Sid_Vicious

     I don't care if they leave. The grind doesn't need to be reduced. We just need more sand in the box.

     

    Let the grind-whiners leave. They aren't going to stay anyways.

    You are lucky, you get sand.

     

    You get funhulks, so you and your friends can do races together giggling like little girls on ventrillo. You also get a new dungeon with loads of new npcs you can test your skill against. I bet you are excited to explore the new dungeon and do the new quests. Ohh and bravo, you get to grind faction reputation just like WOW too. And don`t forget a the new sand you get with the new world terrain system. i almost wet my pants when I saw all that sand

     

    http://www.darkfallonline.com/images/terrain_before_after_03.jpg

     

    I don`t know why you want the pvpers to leave, or grind-whiners as you call us. How would you advertise DF when the pvpers are no longer there. When we leave, DF is nothing but a multiplayer onlinegame where you kill NPCs. They would even have to remove the M for massive. Maybe that`s what some of you want. A game where you can left klick, left click, left click, left click a million times and watch your levels sloooowly raise 0.1 points at a time. A dream game for you grinders.

  • thinktank001thinktank001 Member UncommonPosts: 2,144

    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

     I very honsetly think the ideal state for both those two different game play styles would require two different games, I dont think they can realistically play together. I dont mean pve vs pvp I mean fast skill progression vs long.

    I also understand the frustration of the people who want fast progression, they join a game seeing the entire skill progression system as just one long frustation tutorial so they deserve their own game where there is no skill progression whatsoever. I just dont want that game to be Darkfall.

     

    They could both be incorporated together by throwning limits on the number of active skills.   The more a player grinded the more options they would have, but they would not necassarily become stronger. 

     

  • dot80dot80 Member Posts: 5

    Originally posted by Hotjazz

    Originally posted by Sid_Vicious



     I don't care if they leave. The grind doesn't need to be reduced. We just need more sand in the box.

     

    Let the grind-whiners leave. They aren't going to stay anyways.

    You are lucky, you get sand.

     

    You get funhulks, so you and your friends can do races together giggling like little girls on ventrillo. You also get a new dungeon with loads of new npcs you can test your skill against. I bet you are excited to explore the new dungeon and do the new quests. Ohh and bravo, you get to grind faction reputation just like WOW too. And don`t forget a the new sand you get with the new world terrain system. i almost wet my pants when I saw all that sand

     

    http://www.darkfallonline.com/images/terrain_before_after_03.jpg

     

    I don`t know why you want the pvpers to leave, or grind-whiners as you call us. How would you advertise DF when the pvpers are no longer there. When we leave, DF is nothing but a multiplayer onlinegame where you kill NPCs. They would even have to remove the M for massive. Maybe that`s what some of you want. A game where you can left klick, left click, left click, left click a million times and watch your levels sloooowly raise 0.1 points at a time. A dream game for you grinders.

    Fun hulks and more npc's are not sand, sand would be what you find in Blindchance's posts. Game mechanics that are rewarding and fun, not a grind to be pvp worthy. If you wanted straight pvp you shouldn't be looking for mmo's, you should be looking for fps like halo, and call of duty. Also Sid_vicious doesn't want the pvper's to leav they want the whiners to leave.

  • tropiktropik Member UncommonPosts: 97

    Weird, i thought UO and Shadowbane did just fine without having a dulling grind like Darkfall.

  • BlindchanceBlindchance Member UncommonPosts: 1,112

    Originally posted by Harakiri

    Weird, i thought UO and Shadowbane did just fine without having a dulling grind like Darkfall.

    Some people still believe it is beneficial and CAN replace actual game content. I suppose it explains sky rocketing population numbers on BOTH Darkfall servers image

  • jimmyman99jimmyman99 Member UncommonPosts: 3,221

    Originally posted by DarthRaiden

    Originally posted by Blindchance


    Originally posted by DarthRaiden

    The "grind" has been addressed  noumerous times by AV.  Really its the most addressed  in several patches and  in posts. 

    You would think the easier the game became the more would join by that logic ..wrong !

    Seems character progression is not the issue...

    The lack of content definitely is.

    You jump to conclusions without a logical relation. I am sure you have read many of posts by ex and actual DF's players. Grind was and is the main complaint. It stands between the players and the only game feature with any replayability and fun value: pvp.

    Long character progression is NOT a game content, if anything it just a poor attempt to hide lack of it. Sooner or later your char is going to be maxed out anyway so it would be reasonable to build game content which actually has replayability value. Player competition and interactions definitly do have such a value.

     

    Exploring is fun, crafting is fun, boat trips are fun, PvE is fun..is just PvP'r seek for PvP only..heck they complained after the mob upgrades the mob should be easy targets to just stand there to get beaten so they can have easy results out of them..

    I know where you coming from and i support you wanting more rich mechanics but you be surprised what the resulting game would be  when we allow those who want "grind" taken away to make the game..

    This game would give you ready PvP char in few hours, portals to any spot of the map for easy travel, PvE disabled allto gether or just optional for "PvE freaks" and some dungeons to get the gear necause gathering and crafting is subpar playstyle compared to of course : PvP ..   

    Yes combat in Darkfall is very well done but the game needs to offer more ...shorter "grind" just help those who want to reach their  "1:1  heaven" faster...but exclusive 1:1 was never a feature in DF and never promised..

    Exploring is very limited and completely static, you gain nothing from exploring, except a personal feeling of  "WoW, I've never been here". but with a small world (small for exploring) like this, you can explore everything in a week or two.

    Boat trips, fall under same category of exploring - fun a few times, but you can't do much else.

    I find the best "exploring" type of experiences to be in Earth and Beyond, if anyone remembers it. Exploring there was dangerous, but it was also tangible - you gained exp that you could apply somewhere, not just find a new rock and move on in search of another rock.

     

    What this game needs is much less grind, much more PvE and a separate PvP place - i guess I am describing DAOC. That model was the most successfull.

    Or, completely remove grind and PvE, improve PvP - thats a Planetside model. Its also pretty good model, but it will upset a large number of people who care more about PvE then PvP.

    Or, leave everything as it is and have a very small and stagnating population. Lots of grind, mediocre PvE, decent PvP that require a large chunk of time invested to be playable on par with the rest of vets.

    Personally, I owuld pick first option, then reluctantly second (because I really did like PvE in DF, it has a huge potential). Third option, well, the numbers speak for themselves, you may like things as they are now, but most people do not. If you are not willing to change things, prepare for the worst. It may not happen today, next month or even next year, but 10000-20000 subs is not healthy for an MMORPG. And there exist no "magical" patches or expansions  that can suddenly change things for better without changing the core structure of the game.

    I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
    image
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
    imageimage

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