We're all older now and we have to accept the old saying that we can never go home again. As much as we want to try and get that old feeling back, it's never going to happen again. It was a special time in a special place and that's how i remember it.
This.
Yes, the new games are less innovative and less immersive and more similar to each other than ever. But we as an audience are also a lot more demanding. And going back isn't the answer.
>Snip<...Other stuff i tend to agree with...
I definately disagree on the innovation part lets look at some of the innovation brought to you, not necissairly brought to you by WoW before you tards start, but maybe recognized from the implimentation into WoW.
Dungeon Finding - Like it or not developers listened to people that said "Hey this blows shouting in LFG, or trade or whatever channel it is in your game, for hours trying to find a group" I fail to see how standing around in a city or somewhere shouting in a global channel for a group is better than this system...call me crazy.
Phasing - Letting the player seem like they are effecting the game world while still having the ability for other players to experience the same thing. I realize you play for your own entertainment but unique events that are only available for one or a very small group or segment of the game population doesnt make sense.
Instancing - There is a fine line to be walked with instancing too much and its DDO not enough and mob spawn camping and back to wasting time standing around waiting for Bosses and named Mobs to respawn. I would lump Channeling into this as well different instances of the game on a single server to help relieve over crowding and lag issues due to many many players in the same zone.
The list goes on and i could name more but i think you get the point. Like it or not these are steps foward meant to eliminate the time wasting and performance issues.
There aren't exactly a bunch of indie developers putting in the money necessary to make an MMO. Correct me if I am wrong, but indie companies don't have the resources to put into an MMO. You are correct in saying that new ideas come from the Indie and new developers, but I don't really think you can be an indie/new developer and make an MMO.
As for the games, yeah things have changed. When this 'golden period of mmo' was around, was a different MILLENNIUM. Everything was different and if people released games of the same quality as the ones during the 90's, generally they would probably do bad. Sure, the new Mario and Sonic games are throwbacks to that period, but they also include more than 10 years of improvements.
Going back in time isn't going to improve our genre.
I can always suggest Darkfall Online, which was basically designed to target people like you. It is hard, people die a lot, etc.
Playing: Heroes of Three Kingdoms Played: WoW, DDO, Second Life, Diablo II, Tried free trial: LoTR, Fallen Earth, EvE, Champions Online,
Originally posted by dirtyjoe78 - bunch of other stuff- I would lump Channeling into this as well different instances of the game on a single server to help relieve over crowding and lag issues due to many many players in the same zone.
This isn't the 1990's where everyone is on really low bandwidth dialup anymore, using 486 pc's! The other aspect is that all these people demanding single-player quality graphics in an mmo are delusional and generate the need for said instancing.
Next Gen means next generation. I believe there are only two generations of MMO's. Pre WoW, and Post WoW. The games say next gen, then give the same old stuff. I'm not saying it's a bad thing....just saying that these things are not enough to say you are bringing in a new generation of MMO's.
If you equate everyone saying they are next gen to real life, every baby born would be a part of it's own unique generation lol. Which then negates the point of even having said descriptor.
Originally posted by Koujow There aren't exactly a bunch of indie developers putting in the money necessary to make an MMO. Correct me if I am wrong, but indie companies don't have the resources to put into an MMO. You are correct in saying that new ideas come from the Indie and new developers, but I don't really think you can be an indie/new developer and make an MMO.
Yet just about every keystone mmo was basically Indie, except for WoW.
There's a number of indies currently making mmos, they just don't advertise like AAA titles, and often you only hear about them by word of mouth, so to speak. Probably to avoid the usual flood of ignoramuses posting nonsense in forums, giving everyone the wrong impression of something they havent even seen yet.
(And then those people say: "oh they don't advertise! that must mean they fail!" - silly people)
I would lump Channeling into this as well different instances of the game on a single server to help relieve over crowding and lag issues due to many many players in the same zone.
This isn't the 1990's where everyone is on really low bandwidth dialup anymore, using 486 pc's! The other aspect is that all these people demanding single-player quality graphics in an mmo are delusional and generate the need for said instancing.
My P4 2.8 and 7800gt could render a couple hundred people at a castle seige in Lineage 2 4+ years ago when L2 had some of the best graphics around. I have yet to play another game that it was possible to have that many people in one area without massive amounts of lag client and server lag.
It isn't that all these new MMOs are bad, it is just that I don't find them as appealing as the ones I have played beforeI could go into specific details of each game, describing what I like and dislike about them, but I am not attempting to form a major rant thread.
It could be the nostalgia factor of the "good ol' days", but I still have a hard time finding a mmo I can stick with.
Well, challenging and risk reward definetly like Eve, and Everquest. Now I know everquest had a lot of grind and mob camping and such, and it isn't that I enjoyed that a lot, but it gave me a sense of accomplishment knowing that I had an item I worked really hard for that many other people did not have.
No game is perfect, but I guess the closest any newer mmo could get to being a game I would love would be vangaurd, but sadly it is falling, or has fallen off the map.
We all have our own preferences as to what we like in a MMO, some the same, some different, I was merely talking about these "next gen" mmos per my definition and attempting to find out maybe why some of us aren't enjoying them like we used to.
I am entitled to my opinions, misspellings, and grammatical errors.
We're all older now and we have to accept the old saying that we can never go home again. As much as we want to try and get that old feeling back, it's never going to happen again. It was a special time in a special place and that's how i remember it.
This.
Yes, the new games are less innovative and less immersive and more similar to each other than ever. But we as an audience are also a lot more demanding. And going back isn't the answer.
>Snip<...Other stuff i tend to agree with...
The list goes on and i could name more but i think you get the point. Like it or not these are steps foward meant to eliminate the time wasting and performance issues.
It's not that i don't consider these things to be "innovation", it's that i don't consider these to have come from the new games. I started out 10 years ago with Anarchy Online, which I consider to be a "1st generation" MMO, even if it came after UO and EQ1. AO had better instancing and dynamic content than most of the games made today. Both in terms of what it could do and in terms of how it was used. It's seriously sad that a 10-year-old game has better dynamic events than anything made since (look up alien invasions in AO, if you're not familiar).
Dungeon Finder specifically i find arguable, since i've never used it or seen it used in any game that had it. In most games it's just easier (as well as more immersive) to just say exactly what you want to do or what you're looking for. The only time I've seen it work well was in STO (horrible as it was otherwise) when you zoned into a group area and were automatically put into a group. Although really, none of the people in these groups talked to each other and mostly they just played as individuals anyway. While it is a technological innovation, I don't see eliminating character interaction with each other as a positive change for the genre.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
I have not really enjoyed a mmo since dark age of camelot. The post WoW apocolypse seemed to have changed the face of mmo, as it has been said numerous times.
These "next gen" MMOs just don't cut it for me. MMOs that bring me back to happier mmo times seem to flop, while these watered down mmos seem to flourish.
They say time repeats itself, so when will it repeat itself into the good ol' mmo days?
I love to play MMOs, they are fun and it is what I like to spend my little amount of downtime on, but I cannot even enjoy them anymore.
Not sure if it is due to the community that we have in the mmo market today, or just the lackluster mmos that have been comming out. Nothing feels adventerous and dangerous. Not much risk/reward these days.
These next gen. mmos just don't seem to be for me, which is fine, I will just not play them. Just wanted to express my sadness with the current state of the MMO world/market/community, whatever you would like to call it.
I am sure many many many of you feel the same, but you can only truely feel my pain if you have played pre-wow MMOs.
MMO-in since 99'.
EDIT: As far as "Next Gen. MMO". The number of years in a human generation is debatable, but I guess my definition of "Next Gen MMO" would be post WoW mmo, just because WoW added so many people into the MMO community, and it also made MMO more mainstream and in the public eye.
Well since you fail at providing what in DaoC you liiked i can't counter or give advice on that part, So i guess you are right. You are, like the people who only listens to 50's-60's rock fan of a special era. Much like the music of that time it can be emulated but will never come back. This is not bad this is just a fact, games like DaoC will most likleynever be made again as the demograpic has changed. Much like how MTV now is a lifestyle channel and not a musci channel.
My tip is to go back to SP RPG's and fondly remeber the good old days.
Ps. No matter how good you might think that old TV shows are... Never do the mistake of actually re-watch them. Not good for your nostalgia. Ds.
oh for crying out loud we are talking about WoW, War, Aion and Hello Kitty! but if that is the pool of games you want to defend have at it, I think its a funny conversation to even have. Of COURSE MMO's are now focused on the little kiddies its painfully obvious
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
We're all older now and we have to accept the old saying that we can never go home again. As much as we want to try and get that old feeling back, it's never going to happen again. It was a special time in a special place and that's how i remember it.
I agree 100%, but I also thought by now that all new mmos would be fps. ( i still know its coming)
Back when i started playing there were tons of real mmo fps to choose from. 10six endlessages neocron planetside etc etc now they are coming out with instanced mini mmos apb huxley crimecraft global agenda which are fine, but its not the next gen i was waiting for.
We're all older now and we have to accept the old saying that we can never go home again. As much as we want to try and get that old feeling back, it's never going to happen again. It was a special time in a special place and that's how i remember it.
I agree 100%, but I also thought by now that all new mmos would be fps. ( i still know its coming)
Back when i started playing there were tons of real mmo fps to choose from. 10six endlessages neocron planetside etc etc now they are coming out with instanced mini mmos apb huxley crimecraft global agenda which are fine, but its not the next gen i was waiting for.
I didn't think every mmo would be a fps, but I do agree that these new FPS mmo type things that are comming out are "mini" mmos.
Planetside was an awesome game, and I will say, before its time. You release that game now, post WoWapocolypse and you would have an even bigger player base, but then again I beleive SOE did planetside and they are kinda slipping now-adays.
I don't understand why all these companies attempting to make FPS mmos don't take a page from the Planetside manual....
Ok, well, maybe they do take a page from the planetside manual, but they are taking the wrong pages! This darn instancing is ruining MMOs! (Well, ruining them for me, like I have said before, everyone likes what they like, but I really am not a fan of instancing, or heavy instancing. A little bit here and there is ok, but for a game to be solely based or majorly based around instancing, PvE or PvP is bad in my opinion)
I am entitled to my opinions, misspellings, and grammatical errors.
My advice to you is to go and take a break from MMOs. Come back in a year or two and see whats going on then. Don't torture youself by thinking the best has been and gone. The market is evolving (devolving?) hmmm, time will tell.
We're all older now and we have to accept the old saying that we can never go home again. As much as we want to try and get that old feeling back, it's never going to happen again. It was a special time in a special place and that's how i remember it.
I agree 100%, but I also thought by now that all new mmos would be fps. ( i still know its coming)
Back when i started playing there were tons of real mmo fps to choose from. 10six endlessages neocron planetside etc etc now they are coming out with instanced mini mmos apb huxley crimecraft global agenda which are fine, but its not the next gen i was waiting for.
I didn't think every mmo would be a fps, but I do agree that these new FPS mmo type things that are comming out are "mini" mmos.
Planetside was an awesome game, and I will say, before its time. You release that game now, post WoWapocolypse and you would have an even bigger player base, but then again I beleive SOE did planetside and they are kinda slipping now-adays.
I don't understand why all these companies attempting to make FPS mmos don't take a page from the Planetside manual....
Ok, well, maybe they do take a page from the planetside manual, but they are taking the wrong pages! This darn instancing is ruining MMOs! (Well, ruining them for me, like I have said before, everyone likes what they like, but I really am not a fan of instancing, or heavy instancing. A little bit here and there is ok, but for a game to be solely based or majorly based around instancing, PvE or PvP is bad in my opinion)
I can't say instancing is 100% ruining mmo's [albeit I do hate it and how its employed as heavily in the industry]. But when we think about the ground up in game building we think of a storyline, or a basic premise of a story. At some level, there aren't many "great stories" to choose from or to think of. So we'll find ourselves having a hard time trying to find new ideas or inspiration when it comes to the most basic element of an mmo. But that's only part of the jig too.
We can move onto graphics and I think we've become "picky" without substance. Its true graphics matter and nice but we've also let a number of the mmo community to deem that "if it doesn't have good graphics its a failed product". We see this a lot in console gaming even. One of the few exceptions as far as popularity go is Zelda on Wii; with its less than real but incredibly enjoyable gameplay produced and made with the graphics of the Xbox 360 and PS3 in the backdrop. I don't mmo's will however be as fortunate; can you imagine an mmo similar in design to Zelda being released? Even if its client could handle hundreds of players (and for the person earlier who talked about Lineage 2, most players in Eve online have experienced more), the shear number of ppl who would flame the game due to its lack of "realism" would light forums. Hell, if the characters couldn't even jump but was otherwise a perfect game made by God himself, someone WOULD gripe! Why? Because realism demands we jump....
Another part of the deal is player vs. developer antagonism. Players assume, being players, we know how a game should be made. Problem is with few exceptions, few players have ever involved themselves in making a game and have to clue either how incredibly demanding let alone frustrating it is. Ever do coding? You have no clue how many hours ppl put into just putting together something that looks even semi~cool on your screen. Developers also have the problem of "who to please" and players don't see that part too or grasp it fully. I don't 100% but I at least can say "I know they are making a game with the hopes of success". I may not always agree with their choices and decisions, but they aren't in the business either of just making a bad investment and getting broke from it either. When you take into account all the things involved in the current state of mmo's as well, its harder to not only choose but also is partly a daunting task of making it all fit together. That part is my friend's take who does work in coding for a company and what his coworkers usually gripe about.
I agree whole heartedly that "we can't go back" and that isn't to say the current games are failed and the past one's are good. But I would add that given the advent of WoW, the market in general has really taken out the vision, creativity and daring in a game that lead to the various mmo's that created and resulted in WoW's success. I think the closest title in mmo evolution released isn't WoW but is Eve online; it may not be Ultima or EQ but it continues a trend of trying new things and developing them. However due to Eve being less well known, most in the industries seemed more inclined to follow what WoW does. Not saying its a good or bad thing, but I am saying that there is only so much that can be done when a company looks to WoW and no where else and doesn't seriously attempt to "re-evaluate" mmo's in general and what makes them fun and exciting. You can't please everyone but doesn't mean you can't take small risks here and there.
However, we may be due for a market correction. I won't say that every WoW clone is a complete failure, but I think most can look at this recent phase as not quite the success that was expected.
Hey, it takes a long time to make an MMO. So, it'll likely be a while before we see some innovation again.
My two favorite MMOs in terms of fun I had waere EQ1 and SWG. I had the idea that if I could only find an "old school" game then everything would be perfect.
Well, Fallen Earth got close, but I still found it lacking in a way I could not quitre define. Then it hit me; while some of the systems and feel of the game were somewhat similar to old school, it wasn't new and fresh! It was same old same old.
Same with WoW, Vanguard, AoC and others. Nothing really new under the sun.
I have high hopes for TOR and Curt Shilling's game from 38 studios.
To sum up, I think the problem is simply too much same old same old and not enough innovation. I'd say EVE is the one of the only ones that isn't, but it's not my cup of tea.
Hey... maybe the mold can't be broken. If that's the case, this genre is on life support even with WoW sub numbers being what they are.
i dont think there are any upcoming MMO's that i am really looking forward to at all, GW2, FFIV, SW:TOR even, none of them have that 'something' that the games i used to play for hours on end had, DAOC was an epic game, i remember after playing sometimes i'd be talking for hours afterwards about the stuff that happened in game, SWG.. used to have the best social gaming experience ever, those player cities used to be busy! not ghost towns, even sitting waiting to get healed up in the medical centres was kind of fun, it was a flawed game, but hell, it was a fun one... and planetside, before they bfr'd and catacombed the hell out of it... was one of the best reasons to get a station pass from SOE.... its not a case of rose coloured spectacles or nostalgia whatever, games really used to be a lot more fun, okay.. WoW does have it to a degree.. but its watered down and far too 'instant' the only game i can honestly say still gives me hope.. is Eve... too many games now are linear single player games that lead players by the nose and just don't encourage creativity or original thinking.. masquerading as MMO's.. thats the trouble really.. half of them are so busy trying to reinvent the wheel that they are overlooking what made games so much fun in the first place...
I used to log many hours a week into several MMOs. I played all the major ones and some of the minor ones over the years. But truthfully from WoW onwards I just did not enjoy the MMOs (to be fair I didn't enjoy EQ much either, there were some aspects that made it interesting and surprisingly those aspects did not show up in the future EQ style MMOs).
UO, AC, DAoC were the 3 MMOs over the years that I found truly fun. I genuinely had a blast when I was playing all 3 of them and did so for a long time (currently still play AC). Unfortunatly that style of MMO got phased out because the WoW style was easier to make, easier to balance, and easier to play. All of those meant more players and more money. But to me those style of MMOs just truly are not enjoyable.
It isn't nostalgia, it is the fact that the genre went down 1 specific path and phased out all of the players that enjoyed the other path (which also oddly enough was the original majority of MMO gaming). Companies stopped making games that appealed to that side because they all thought by going the other route they could get WoW numbers and WoW money. No matter how many times another game failed to get those numbers companies still went that direction over and over. They have yet to realize no MMO will get those numbers again, not for years and years at least. Even if WoW were to be released today it wouldn't get those numbers. The biggest factor in WoW's numbers was timing, and that situation isn't coming back around anytime soon.
There is just a major section of MMO gaming that lacks any recent games by major publishers, we're just waiting for the company that realizes that and jumps in there to pick up all those players. I'll be there to sign up for that game, that's for sure.
I used to log many hours a week into several MMOs. I played all the major ones and some of the minor ones over the years. But truthfully from WoW onwards I just did not enjoy the MMOs (to be fair I didn't enjoy EQ much either, there were some aspects that made it interesting and surprisingly those aspects did not show up in the future EQ style MMOs).
UO, AC, DAoC were the 3 MMOs over the years that I found truly fun. I genuinely had a blast when I was playing all 3 of them and did so for a long time (currently still play AC). Unfortunatly that style of MMO got phased out because the WoW style was easier to make, easier to balance, and easier to play. All of those meant more players and more money. But to me those style of MMOs just truly are not enjoyable.
It isn't nostalgia, it is the fact that the genre went down 1 specific path and phased out all of the players that enjoyed the other path (which also oddly enough was the original majority of MMO gaming). Companies stopped making games that appealed to that side because they all thought by going the other route they could get WoW numbers and WoW money. No matter how many times another game failed to get those numbers companies still went that direction over and over. They have yet to realize no MMO will get those numbers again, not for years and years at least. Even if WoW were to be released today it wouldn't get those numbers. The biggest factor in WoW's numbers was timing, and that situation isn't coming back around anytime soon.
There is just a major section of MMO gaming that lacks any recent games by major publishers, we're just waiting for the company that realizes that and jumps in there to pick up all those players. I'll be there to sign up for that game, that's for sure.
So you're lamenting a "major" publisher hasn't seen the wisdom in investing years of development and millions of dollars to appease the "original majority of MMO gaming" — those who aren't satisfied with current offerings such as Dark Fall, Eve Online, Fallen Earth, Mortal Online, Vanguard and the like?
I stand corrected. The problem isn't nostalgia. It's delusional thinking.
Im in the same boat. having a hard time getting excited about the new crop of mmos. if theyre going to make a game that has no player cities or housing, little to no game economy, boring crafting, invisible walls, solo leveling, but action paced combat...
...you know, consoles have been making those types of games for years and are frankly much better at delivering the experience that these new mmos are trying to emulate.
i'll most likely head back to my console games and wait for mmorpgs to stop trying to be other genres.
This is dead on, you are correct on the point that single player RPGs CO-RPGs are becoming more open world and with the ability to do what you want when you want, some games that come to mind and fine examples, Fallout 3-the upcoming New Vegas, Red Dead Redemption, Oblivion, Morrowind, Fable II- the upcoming Fable III,Grand Theft Auto 3-4 , Deus-Ex, etc, all of them have more MMO elements that are completely missing from MMO's today.
All of these games have different features like , housing, politics, crafting, open world exploration, relationships-marriage-children, full character customization, skill based leveling, reputation among factions and karma, hunting, fishing, dyanmic encounters, choice in how you can complete a mission-quest that way you want to,etc.
All of these features listed above have at one point been in MMOs with the exception of offspring in MMO's unless I missed one that did, point being that all of these games have been successful with all these features in the prespective games and roles, MMO's however have stripped all of these great features and dropped in a hack and slash-button mashing title, with everything else added in as a afterthought and completely out of place and not really has the long -term appeal to keep people paying for years upon end.
In the end you right regular console and pc games do much better with making great games that have lasting enterainment for years while the shelf life of new MMOs last for 3-6 months before dying a premature death adding to the growing list of life support MMO's. The industry needs to wake up and realize that they will never ,NEVER,NEVER, copy or or emulate WOW with success or grab millions of players at launch until they "GET" that what it takes to grab people's attention and get people to stay playing their titles is to make a GREAT GAME not rehashing the same thing over and over , give a reason for the real core of gamers that have the real impact and can make and break a game. As quoted in Star Trek Online by the games producer " They just DON'T GET IT."
It is interesting how single player games have advanced a lot more than mmorpgs. One of the selling points for mmorpgs was "massive worlds" but even Oblivion outdid a lot of mmorpgs. Many of the traits that were exclusive to mmorpgs are now in all games.
One of the few things that mmorpgs can capitalize on atm is in depth gameplay mechanics. It's what makes mmorpgs so difficult to make imo and why people pay to play. They want some pretty intense creativity going into the world. Shadowbane, better of course, comes to mind. Having player/guild interaction and complex mechanics isn't something other games have done. Shadowbane did some pretty interesting stuff with guilds and pvp, but they could also do something innovative with pve as well. I think uninstancing would be one area of innovation, finding a way to make it work and be fun. Or have some other mechanic driving npc spawns, where the player is more in charge.
Also....stop reading up on mmorpgs. After WoW I stopped since it becomes a hunt to gather every bit of info possible. Then when you finally get to play the game, it won't be as fun as if you knew nothing about it. I did that with FFXIV and my experiences might be a lot different than others.
There's been "next generation mmos", but the problem is.. one person's idea of advancement is another person's idea of a shitty deal.
But there have been mmos that broke the mold.. it's just that they tended to be niche targeted, and largely ignored except for those who fit in that niche..
I used to log many hours a week into several MMOs. I played all the major ones and some of the minor ones over the years. But truthfully from WoW onwards I just did not enjoy the MMOs (to be fair I didn't enjoy EQ much either, there were some aspects that made it interesting and surprisingly those aspects did not show up in the future EQ style MMOs).
UO, AC, DAoC were the 3 MMOs over the years that I found truly fun. I genuinely had a blast when I was playing all 3 of them and did so for a long time (currently still play AC). Unfortunatly that style of MMO got phased out because the WoW style was easier to make, easier to balance, and easier to play. All of those meant more players and more money. But to me those style of MMOs just truly are not enjoyable.
It isn't nostalgia, it is the fact that the genre went down 1 specific path and phased out all of the players that enjoyed the other path (which also oddly enough was the original majority of MMO gaming). Companies stopped making games that appealed to that side because they all thought by going the other route they could get WoW numbers and WoW money. No matter how many times another game failed to get those numbers companies still went that direction over and over. They have yet to realize no MMO will get those numbers again, not for years and years at least. Even if WoW were to be released today it wouldn't get those numbers. The biggest factor in WoW's numbers was timing, and that situation isn't coming back around anytime soon.
There is just a major section of MMO gaming that lacks any recent games by major publishers, we're just waiting for the company that realizes that and jumps in there to pick up all those players. I'll be there to sign up for that game, that's for sure.
So you're lamenting a "major" publisher hasn't seen the wisdom in investing years of development and millions of dollars to appease the "original majority of MMO gaming" — those who aren't satisfied with current offerings such as Dark Fall, Eve Online, Fallen Earth, Mortal Online, Vanguard and the like?
I stand corrected. The problem isn't nostalgia. It's delusional thinking.
Darkfall seems to be doing fine and made their game according to their vision aiming for their target audience PVP players, the game has addressed a lot of their problems and will address more of them in the future with more expansions it's a niche game not a mass appeal game and it does well for who its targeting, EVE Online once again is a niche game targeting sandbox players with over 300k subs I don't know what your trying to say here, Fallen Earth still a new title that needs time to grow over time, Mortal Online even with it being a newly launched title it needs time to address the problems that exist in game at the moment, its concept and features are sound but needs time to mature like any new indy title that targets a NICHE, Vanguard was plauged with problems and it didnt help that SOE bought the game from Sigil and never invested the money to fix said problems.
I think your equating failure to these games cause they don't have millions of players which don't make a great game, regular console and pc games all have genres that are all niche, some garner millions of players and others have less, that doesn't mean they stop completely from making a genre that a group of people like cause millions of people don't like or buy it, a lot of the top 100 games of all time didnt have millions of people buying and playing but cause the games themselves stood out above all the rest with its creative and enteraining game design. Instead of producing flop after flop find a vision find a target group and design a game around them cause when you try to design a game around everyone you end up pleasing noone.
I wasn't equating failure to those games. Quite the contrary.
I was equating failure to the notion that a "major" publisher (whatever that is… EA I suppose?) should dump millions of dollars and countless manhours into an AAA title for the sake of a niche group of players who aren't pleased with games on the market already targeted specifically at them.
Seriously, does anyone think it would be in Bioware's best interest (for example) to invest $150 million into an MMO that by some wild chance may appeal to CCP's 300k subs?
It is interesting how single player games have advanced a lot more than mmorpgs. One of the selling points for mmorpgs was "massive worlds" but even Oblivion outdid a lot of mmorpgs. Many of the traits that were exclusive to mmorpgs are now in all games.
Single player games have always been better than MMOs. The only thing mmos have over single player games is community. However, gameplay, graphics, all of that, single player games trump mmos every time. You can't compare the improvement and development of different style of games.
We're all older now and we have to accept the old saying that we can never go home again. As much as we want to try and get that old feeling back, it's never going to happen again. It was a special time in a special place and that's how i remember it.
Grind parties or even solo grinding is something i wish the genre would get over so we can move forward. I get no satisfaction from killing mobs over and over for the sake of exp. I need a reason and it should be incorporated in the overall story and atmosphere of what i'm playing. It needs to mean something, it needs to have a purpose. I want to be so enthralled in what i'm doing that i lose track that i'm even leveling and it must effect the server, even if a little.
Grinding should definetly not be removed from the mmo-system. I dont understand how someone can say grinding does not have a goal or purpose. It levels you up, if you have the patience and a good rotation it can actually be faster than questing in some games.
Grinding should stay, as should fast respawn rates on mobs. MMOs just need a balance of grinding and questing, not a focus on just one. Like WoW i liked leveling my first character, now i have to do all the same quests again to level. I find grinding more enjoyable than repeating quests that ive already done.
Comments
I definately disagree on the innovation part lets look at some of the innovation brought to you, not necissairly brought to you by WoW before you tards start, but maybe recognized from the implimentation into WoW.
Dungeon Finding - Like it or not developers listened to people that said "Hey this blows shouting in LFG, or trade or whatever channel it is in your game, for hours trying to find a group" I fail to see how standing around in a city or somewhere shouting in a global channel for a group is better than this system...call me crazy.
Phasing - Letting the player seem like they are effecting the game world while still having the ability for other players to experience the same thing. I realize you play for your own entertainment but unique events that are only available for one or a very small group or segment of the game population doesnt make sense.
Instancing - There is a fine line to be walked with instancing too much and its DDO not enough and mob spawn camping and back to wasting time standing around waiting for Bosses and named Mobs to respawn. I would lump Channeling into this as well different instances of the game on a single server to help relieve over crowding and lag issues due to many many players in the same zone.
The list goes on and i could name more but i think you get the point. Like it or not these are steps foward meant to eliminate the time wasting and performance issues.
There aren't exactly a bunch of indie developers putting in the money necessary to make an MMO. Correct me if I am wrong, but indie companies don't have the resources to put into an MMO. You are correct in saying that new ideas come from the Indie and new developers, but I don't really think you can be an indie/new developer and make an MMO.
As for the games, yeah things have changed. When this 'golden period of mmo' was around, was a different MILLENNIUM. Everything was different and if people released games of the same quality as the ones during the 90's, generally they would probably do bad. Sure, the new Mario and Sonic games are throwbacks to that period, but they also include more than 10 years of improvements.
Going back in time isn't going to improve our genre.
I can always suggest Darkfall Online, which was basically designed to target people like you. It is hard, people die a lot, etc.
Playing: Heroes of Three Kingdoms
Played: WoW, DDO, Second Life, Diablo II,
Tried free trial: LoTR, Fallen Earth, EvE, Champions Online,
This isn't the 1990's where everyone is on really low bandwidth dialup anymore, using 486 pc's! The other aspect is that all these people demanding single-player quality graphics in an mmo are delusional and generate the need for said instancing.
Next Gen means next generation. I believe there are only two generations of MMO's. Pre WoW, and Post WoW. The games say next gen, then give the same old stuff. I'm not saying it's a bad thing....just saying that these things are not enough to say you are bringing in a new generation of MMO's.
If you equate everyone saying they are next gen to real life, every baby born would be a part of it's own unique generation lol. Which then negates the point of even having said descriptor.
Yet just about every keystone mmo was basically Indie, except for WoW.
There's a number of indies currently making mmos, they just don't advertise like AAA titles, and often you only hear about them by word of mouth, so to speak. Probably to avoid the usual flood of ignoramuses posting nonsense in forums, giving everyone the wrong impression of something they havent even seen yet.
(And then those people say: "oh they don't advertise! that must mean they fail!" - silly people)
My P4 2.8 and 7800gt could render a couple hundred people at a castle seige in Lineage 2 4+ years ago when L2 had some of the best graphics around. I have yet to play another game that it was possible to have that many people in one area without massive amounts of lag client and server lag.
It isn't that all these new MMOs are bad, it is just that I don't find them as appealing as the ones I have played beforeI could go into specific details of each game, describing what I like and dislike about them, but I am not attempting to form a major rant thread.
It could be the nostalgia factor of the "good ol' days", but I still have a hard time finding a mmo I can stick with.
Well, challenging and risk reward definetly like Eve, and Everquest. Now I know everquest had a lot of grind and mob camping and such, and it isn't that I enjoyed that a lot, but it gave me a sense of accomplishment knowing that I had an item I worked really hard for that many other people did not have.
No game is perfect, but I guess the closest any newer mmo could get to being a game I would love would be vangaurd, but sadly it is falling, or has fallen off the map.
We all have our own preferences as to what we like in a MMO, some the same, some different, I was merely talking about these "next gen" mmos per my definition and attempting to find out maybe why some of us aren't enjoying them like we used to.
I am entitled to my opinions, misspellings, and grammatical errors.
It's not that i don't consider these things to be "innovation", it's that i don't consider these to have come from the new games. I started out 10 years ago with Anarchy Online, which I consider to be a "1st generation" MMO, even if it came after UO and EQ1. AO had better instancing and dynamic content than most of the games made today. Both in terms of what it could do and in terms of how it was used. It's seriously sad that a 10-year-old game has better dynamic events than anything made since (look up alien invasions in AO, if you're not familiar).
Dungeon Finder specifically i find arguable, since i've never used it or seen it used in any game that had it. In most games it's just easier (as well as more immersive) to just say exactly what you want to do or what you're looking for. The only time I've seen it work well was in STO (horrible as it was otherwise) when you zoned into a group area and were automatically put into a group. Although really, none of the people in these groups talked to each other and mostly they just played as individuals anyway. While it is a technological innovation, I don't see eliminating character interaction with each other as a positive change for the genre.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
oh for crying out loud we are talking about WoW, War, Aion and Hello Kitty! but if that is the pool of games you want to defend have at it, I think its a funny conversation to even have. Of COURSE MMO's are now focused on the little kiddies its painfully obvious
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I agree 100%, but I also thought by now that all new mmos would be fps. ( i still know its coming)
Back when i started playing there were tons of real mmo fps to choose from. 10six endlessages neocron planetside etc etc now they are coming out with instanced mini mmos apb huxley crimecraft global agenda which are fine, but its not the next gen i was waiting for.
Own, Mine, Defend, Attack, 24/7
I didn't think every mmo would be a fps, but I do agree that these new FPS mmo type things that are comming out are "mini" mmos.
Planetside was an awesome game, and I will say, before its time. You release that game now, post WoWapocolypse and you would have an even bigger player base, but then again I beleive SOE did planetside and they are kinda slipping now-adays.
I don't understand why all these companies attempting to make FPS mmos don't take a page from the Planetside manual....
Ok, well, maybe they do take a page from the planetside manual, but they are taking the wrong pages! This darn instancing is ruining MMOs! (Well, ruining them for me, like I have said before, everyone likes what they like, but I really am not a fan of instancing, or heavy instancing. A little bit here and there is ok, but for a game to be solely based or majorly based around instancing, PvE or PvP is bad in my opinion)
I am entitled to my opinions, misspellings, and grammatical errors.
My advice to you is to go and take a break from MMOs. Come back in a year or two and see whats going on then. Don't torture youself by thinking the best has been and gone. The market is evolving (devolving?) hmmm, time will tell.
I can't say instancing is 100% ruining mmo's [albeit I do hate it and how its employed as heavily in the industry]. But when we think about the ground up in game building we think of a storyline, or a basic premise of a story. At some level, there aren't many "great stories" to choose from or to think of. So we'll find ourselves having a hard time trying to find new ideas or inspiration when it comes to the most basic element of an mmo. But that's only part of the jig too.
We can move onto graphics and I think we've become "picky" without substance. Its true graphics matter and nice but we've also let a number of the mmo community to deem that "if it doesn't have good graphics its a failed product". We see this a lot in console gaming even. One of the few exceptions as far as popularity go is Zelda on Wii; with its less than real but incredibly enjoyable gameplay produced and made with the graphics of the Xbox 360 and PS3 in the backdrop. I don't mmo's will however be as fortunate; can you imagine an mmo similar in design to Zelda being released? Even if its client could handle hundreds of players (and for the person earlier who talked about Lineage 2, most players in Eve online have experienced more), the shear number of ppl who would flame the game due to its lack of "realism" would light forums. Hell, if the characters couldn't even jump but was otherwise a perfect game made by God himself, someone WOULD gripe! Why? Because realism demands we jump....
Another part of the deal is player vs. developer antagonism. Players assume, being players, we know how a game should be made. Problem is with few exceptions, few players have ever involved themselves in making a game and have to clue either how incredibly demanding let alone frustrating it is. Ever do coding? You have no clue how many hours ppl put into just putting together something that looks even semi~cool on your screen. Developers also have the problem of "who to please" and players don't see that part too or grasp it fully. I don't 100% but I at least can say "I know they are making a game with the hopes of success". I may not always agree with their choices and decisions, but they aren't in the business either of just making a bad investment and getting broke from it either. When you take into account all the things involved in the current state of mmo's as well, its harder to not only choose but also is partly a daunting task of making it all fit together. That part is my friend's take who does work in coding for a company and what his coworkers usually gripe about.
I agree whole heartedly that "we can't go back" and that isn't to say the current games are failed and the past one's are good. But I would add that given the advent of WoW, the market in general has really taken out the vision, creativity and daring in a game that lead to the various mmo's that created and resulted in WoW's success. I think the closest title in mmo evolution released isn't WoW but is Eve online; it may not be Ultima or EQ but it continues a trend of trying new things and developing them. However due to Eve being less well known, most in the industries seemed more inclined to follow what WoW does. Not saying its a good or bad thing, but I am saying that there is only so much that can be done when a company looks to WoW and no where else and doesn't seriously attempt to "re-evaluate" mmo's in general and what makes them fun and exciting. You can't please everyone but doesn't mean you can't take small risks here and there.
Yeah, I think the genre is stuck in a rut.
However, we may be due for a market correction. I won't say that every WoW clone is a complete failure, but I think most can look at this recent phase as not quite the success that was expected.
Hey, it takes a long time to make an MMO. So, it'll likely be a while before we see some innovation again.
My two favorite MMOs in terms of fun I had waere EQ1 and SWG. I had the idea that if I could only find an "old school" game then everything would be perfect.
Well, Fallen Earth got close, but I still found it lacking in a way I could not quitre define. Then it hit me; while some of the systems and feel of the game were somewhat similar to old school, it wasn't new and fresh! It was same old same old.
Same with WoW, Vanguard, AoC and others. Nothing really new under the sun.
I have high hopes for TOR and Curt Shilling's game from 38 studios.
To sum up, I think the problem is simply too much same old same old and not enough innovation. I'd say EVE is the one of the only ones that isn't, but it's not my cup of tea.
Hey... maybe the mold can't be broken. If that's the case, this genre is on life support even with WoW sub numbers being what they are.
All things must pass.
i dont think there are any upcoming MMO's that i am really looking forward to at all, GW2, FFIV, SW:TOR even, none of them have that 'something' that the games i used to play for hours on end had, DAOC was an epic game, i remember after playing sometimes i'd be talking for hours afterwards about the stuff that happened in game, SWG.. used to have the best social gaming experience ever, those player cities used to be busy! not ghost towns, even sitting waiting to get healed up in the medical centres was kind of fun, it was a flawed game, but hell, it was a fun one... and planetside, before they bfr'd and catacombed the hell out of it... was one of the best reasons to get a station pass from SOE.... its not a case of rose coloured spectacles or nostalgia whatever, games really used to be a lot more fun, okay.. WoW does have it to a degree.. but its watered down and far too 'instant' the only game i can honestly say still gives me hope.. is Eve... too many games now are linear single player games that lead players by the nose and just don't encourage creativity or original thinking.. masquerading as MMO's.. thats the trouble really.. half of them are so busy trying to reinvent the wheel that they are overlooking what made games so much fun in the first place...
You're chasing nostalgia. That's the problem.
I don't think that is it.
I used to log many hours a week into several MMOs. I played all the major ones and some of the minor ones over the years. But truthfully from WoW onwards I just did not enjoy the MMOs (to be fair I didn't enjoy EQ much either, there were some aspects that made it interesting and surprisingly those aspects did not show up in the future EQ style MMOs).
UO, AC, DAoC were the 3 MMOs over the years that I found truly fun. I genuinely had a blast when I was playing all 3 of them and did so for a long time (currently still play AC). Unfortunatly that style of MMO got phased out because the WoW style was easier to make, easier to balance, and easier to play. All of those meant more players and more money. But to me those style of MMOs just truly are not enjoyable.
It isn't nostalgia, it is the fact that the genre went down 1 specific path and phased out all of the players that enjoyed the other path (which also oddly enough was the original majority of MMO gaming). Companies stopped making games that appealed to that side because they all thought by going the other route they could get WoW numbers and WoW money. No matter how many times another game failed to get those numbers companies still went that direction over and over. They have yet to realize no MMO will get those numbers again, not for years and years at least. Even if WoW were to be released today it wouldn't get those numbers. The biggest factor in WoW's numbers was timing, and that situation isn't coming back around anytime soon.
There is just a major section of MMO gaming that lacks any recent games by major publishers, we're just waiting for the company that realizes that and jumps in there to pick up all those players. I'll be there to sign up for that game, that's for sure.
So you're lamenting a "major" publisher hasn't seen the wisdom in investing years of development and millions of dollars to appease the "original majority of MMO gaming" — those who aren't satisfied with current offerings such as Dark Fall, Eve Online, Fallen Earth, Mortal Online, Vanguard and the like?
I stand corrected. The problem isn't nostalgia. It's delusional thinking.
This is dead on, you are correct on the point that single player RPGs CO-RPGs are becoming more open world and with the ability to do what you want when you want, some games that come to mind and fine examples, Fallout 3-the upcoming New Vegas, Red Dead Redemption, Oblivion, Morrowind, Fable II- the upcoming Fable III,Grand Theft Auto 3-4 , Deus-Ex, etc, all of them have more MMO elements that are completely missing from MMO's today.
All of these games have different features like , housing, politics, crafting, open world exploration, relationships-marriage-children, full character customization, skill based leveling, reputation among factions and karma, hunting, fishing, dyanmic encounters, choice in how you can complete a mission-quest that way you want to,etc.
All of these features listed above have at one point been in MMOs with the exception of offspring in MMO's unless I missed one that did, point being that all of these games have been successful with all these features in the prespective games and roles, MMO's however have stripped all of these great features and dropped in a hack and slash-button mashing title, with everything else added in as a afterthought and completely out of place and not really has the long -term appeal to keep people paying for years upon end.
In the end you right regular console and pc games do much better with making great games that have lasting enterainment for years while the shelf life of new MMOs last for 3-6 months before dying a premature death adding to the growing list of life support MMO's. The industry needs to wake up and realize that they will never ,NEVER,NEVER, copy or or emulate WOW with success or grab millions of players at launch until they "GET" that what it takes to grab people's attention and get people to stay playing their titles is to make a GREAT GAME not rehashing the same thing over and over , give a reason for the real core of gamers that have the real impact and can make and break a game. As quoted in Star Trek Online by the games producer " They just DON'T GET IT."
It is interesting how single player games have advanced a lot more than mmorpgs. One of the selling points for mmorpgs was "massive worlds" but even Oblivion outdid a lot of mmorpgs. Many of the traits that were exclusive to mmorpgs are now in all games.
One of the few things that mmorpgs can capitalize on atm is in depth gameplay mechanics. It's what makes mmorpgs so difficult to make imo and why people pay to play. They want some pretty intense creativity going into the world. Shadowbane, better of course, comes to mind. Having player/guild interaction and complex mechanics isn't something other games have done. Shadowbane did some pretty interesting stuff with guilds and pvp, but they could also do something innovative with pve as well. I think uninstancing would be one area of innovation, finding a way to make it work and be fun. Or have some other mechanic driving npc spawns, where the player is more in charge.
Also....stop reading up on mmorpgs. After WoW I stopped since it becomes a hunt to gather every bit of info possible. Then when you finally get to play the game, it won't be as fun as if you knew nothing about it. I did that with FFXIV and my experiences might be a lot different than others.
There's been "next generation mmos", but the problem is.. one person's idea of advancement is another person's idea of a shitty deal.
But there have been mmos that broke the mold.. it's just that they tended to be niche targeted, and largely ignored except for those who fit in that niche..
Darkfall seems to be doing fine and made their game according to their vision aiming for their target audience PVP players, the game has addressed a lot of their problems and will address more of them in the future with more expansions it's a niche game not a mass appeal game and it does well for who its targeting, EVE Online once again is a niche game targeting sandbox players with over 300k subs I don't know what your trying to say here, Fallen Earth still a new title that needs time to grow over time, Mortal Online even with it being a newly launched title it needs time to address the problems that exist in game at the moment, its concept and features are sound but needs time to mature like any new indy title that targets a NICHE, Vanguard was plauged with problems and it didnt help that SOE bought the game from Sigil and never invested the money to fix said problems.
I think your equating failure to these games cause they don't have millions of players which don't make a great game, regular console and pc games all have genres that are all niche, some garner millions of players and others have less, that doesn't mean they stop completely from making a genre that a group of people like cause millions of people don't like or buy it, a lot of the top 100 games of all time didnt have millions of people buying and playing but cause the games themselves stood out above all the rest with its creative and enteraining game design. Instead of producing flop after flop find a vision find a target group and design a game around them cause when you try to design a game around everyone you end up pleasing noone.
And I think you misunderstood me.
I wasn't equating failure to those games. Quite the contrary.
I was equating failure to the notion that a "major" publisher (whatever that is… EA I suppose?) should dump millions of dollars and countless manhours into an AAA title for the sake of a niche group of players who aren't pleased with games on the market already targeted specifically at them.
Seriously, does anyone think it would be in Bioware's best interest (for example) to invest $150 million into an MMO that by some wild chance may appeal to CCP's 300k subs?
Single player games have always been better than MMOs. The only thing mmos have over single player games is community. However, gameplay, graphics, all of that, single player games trump mmos every time. You can't compare the improvement and development of different style of games.
Grinding should definetly not be removed from the mmo-system. I dont understand how someone can say grinding does not have a goal or purpose. It levels you up, if you have the patience and a good rotation it can actually be faster than questing in some games.
Grinding should stay, as should fast respawn rates on mobs. MMOs just need a balance of grinding and questing, not a focus on just one. Like WoW i liked leveling my first character, now i have to do all the same quests again to level. I find grinding more enjoyable than repeating quests that ive already done.