Something that I've notced lately (I'm 14 btw) with these forums and with new MMOs coming out and what it has turned into. Let me explain by starting off with a generation that I missed.
I missed the generation of pen and paper and the old school Dungeons and Dragons. But I have a good idea of why people fell in love with these genre in the first place. It allowed you to be someone you could never hope to be and to go places and go on adventures that you could never hope to take on in real life. It was your imagination doing the work while you had a great time playing with your friends. MMOs now don't require your imagination to do much of anything, because the world your playing in is someone elses imagination. It's pretty awesome in every aspect you look at it.
I read the LoTRO vs. WoW column and when the 'Solo Play' in LoTRO was rated lower because the quests required you to group with other people that made me come to a realization. The whole point of an MMO is to play with other people and make friends!! Massively MULTIPLAYER Online Roleplaying Game. How fun was playing DnD or Diablo by yourself? Definitely not as fun as playing with your friends right? So I can in no way see why grouping with people can take away from a game and the game that encourages you to solo play would be BETTER.
I've also read the 'When did Instant Gratification Usurp Adventure?' thread and that got me thinking. Playing an MMO should make you feel like a hero on an epic adventure and along the way you collect items and gear, trophies or what have you to make you stand out from everyone else.
People are attracted to WoW because you get to the top so fast and it kind of gives the illusion that since you have all these epic items that you're awesome! But are you really? The guy next to you is wearing 6 pieces of the same gear. I guess it works but not for me or anyone else who is seeking more than some shallow gameplay and an easy reward system.
In short I think that MMOs lack a real sense of adventure and fail to make you seem like a hero. I'm not saying that grinding your ass off to feel special is the way to go either. I think that the content should be harder, and longer (I'm talking about dungeons). They should be more difficult and add a sense of adventure, therefore when you finish it and claim your reward it actually feels like you've earned it.
Hey Sgt.
I like your post and especially how well written it is.
I agree with some things such as immersing one's self in another world and your supposition that people like wow because it allows them to feel epic relatively quickly, but I'm not on board with the "mmo is to play with other people and make friends".
I did enjoy Diablo as a truly solo game and Neverwinter Nights (D&D) was a solo game for me as well. Had a blast.
I play these games to be immersed in a world and to play alongside others. But not necessarily to make friends or play together. I have done this and have made friends but this is a consequence of me playing these games, not a reason.
Also, there are people who don't want to be a hero but do want to partake in these game worlds in their own fashion.
Just some food for thought.
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Good post. I'm in a similar boat, having missed the "good ol' days" of pen & paper RPGs and the grandaddy MMOs. You know what the sad part is? There's only a handful of modern MMOs that make you feel like you're on an adventure. You know what the really sad part is? Only one MMO has quests that make you feel that way (that I can think of):
Rune. Scape. Rune-f'ing-scape, the game filled with 10 year olds and "FREE ST00F Pl0X" noobs. The game tailored for children. Its quests have more adventure than the millions of tasks found in the "better" MMOs (I'm not going to call killing 10 rats or delivering a flower to a girl for a shy Gnome a quest. It's a task. It's something you'd pay someone minimum wage to do). Some "better" MMOs do have nice chains of quests, which feel slightly epic, and LotRO is an exception because its storytelling quality sets it apart. But in general, RuneScape... come on. That's just sad.
You were talking about dungeons mainly, but I'm talking about quests. Dungeons are great and all, but I think they should involve a little more exploring/puzzle-solving and a little less pulltrash-pulltrash-boss-bathroom break-pulltrash-pulltrash-boss-EPIX!!! There should also be a variety. If you're storming a castle, it should be a straight-up clusterfook of NPC slaughter and mayhem. If you're going into the cave of the Water Fairies, it should be a bit more mysterious and unknown with limited combat.
I agree with you about WoW as well, but I think the main reason people play nowadays is because their friends do. Honestly, most people don't really care about it until their friend starts blabbing about it. Then they get curious, do the trial, and they're hooked.
I don't necessarily agree with your thoughts on what "Multiplayer" means in MMO. You don't have to hang out with friends all the time in an MMO for it to be multiplayer. Look outside the box. MMOs are about player interaction, and that can be both direct and indirect.
Direct: You help your friend with a quest.
Indirect: You buy an item from a crafter you'll likely never meet in-game.
Both examples are valid, and an MMO should have both if it wants to be good. Therefore, you can solo all you like, but you'll still be playing in a "multiplayer" game. That's the beauty of it. If you're an absolute hermit who avoids people as much as possible, never says a word, never trades or buys materials for crafting, doesn't join a guild, etc., then there's not much point to playing an MMO. But you can still play that way if you really, really want to.
You shouldn't be the hero in an MMO. It's lame when you have 100,000 "Chosen Ones" destined to save the world. You should be your own character. Whether there are templates that guide you or a more sandbox system where you basically have free rein, you craft your character the way you want it to be. It helps if there are ways to make it unique, but if not, who cares? Not everyone is unique in the real world, so in a simulated world, should it be any different? MMOs bend the rules of reality, not break them. Like the Matrix. You can reasonably expect/predict behavior and the gameplay quality by looking at real life.
(I'm not going to call killing 10 rats or delivering a flower to a girl for a shy Gnome a quest. It's a task. It's something you'd pay someone minimum wage to do).
I think you make some good points but the fact of the matter is, the reason why a game that req. to party takes away from the rating is because for instance, say I only have an hour to play, I don't wanna waste 25 minutes to get a group together to do 2 quest, I should be able to do things on my own if I have to.
Now I don't think there is anythign wrong at all with grouping, because you do make friends and sometimes get into guilds that way and everything. It just should not be a req. to play the game and get some things done.
Now about the sense of adventure and heroism.....most games i've played(ill use wow since ive played that one the longest) most times when there is new content I feel a sense of adventure and heroism if its like my first few times thru a place and getting bosses down for the first time or if its the first time ive seen a certain boss. But after 6 months of the same raids, downing he same bosses and content, there is no way to really feel it anymore. Thats one thing I've liked about certain games you know like diablo for instance, except for the main bosses, you can go to a place on time and there is a mini boss, and its random on what skills or auras or powers her has. Where as the next time you go there is no mismi boss. There is always a twist and it dictates rather your ready for a encounter or not.
Anyways that is my take on it......
--------------------------------------------- WoW -Rhalon 85 B.E. rogue -Rhalon 81 UD Mage -Doneski 85 Orc death knight
"Everyones life has a beginning and an end, No one can change that."-Hiko "If you wish to taste the ground, then feel free to attack."-Kenshin Himura ---------------------------------------------
Good post O.P and I am in total agreement. It's very nice to know that there are some teenagers out there today with more than a half a brain:). D&D is still alive and kicking. My advice to you is get some mates together and get a game up and running if you can. When I was 14 nobody in my school was interested in it so I couldn't play either. It was a farming community and most of the kids didn't know what a pencil was or how to count higher than six. It wasn't until I got to colledge that I found some like minded freinds then I never looked back. Anyway, I feel like pnp may scratch that little adventure itch you have been having.
I want to adventure with my friends, not seven random jerks on the internet. Very few of my friends play MMO's these days.
So as a 75% of the time solo player I say - reward me when I group but don't punish me when I solo. And the entire game should be playable solo -
D2 had a better system then any MMO. Players 1-8 - more and better drops with more players (grouping) but you could still run the Boss solo with a decent character. Random item drops based on TC treasure class rather than "this boss drops this item".
You have a nice lull in between major releases unless you are going for FFXIV next month. When it comes to MMORPG games a lot of them inherently require you to determine or discover the adventure within, by dev design or not.
I will say some of my best online memories of adventure were not the 24+ people raids or PUGs. But when I had 4 or 5 people I ran around with consistently. I can definitely attribute that to the old days of AD&D with maybe 8 of us on regular basis every weekend for good times.
Today I think it is harder to find the adventure because in part it is harder to find the people looking for it.
So many gogogo or “thanks got my 10 kills, I’m out.” When you have 4 more and now can’t do it. Gigantic zerg guilds/organizations, medium size guilds that are hard to warm into as they are so used to the gogogo who /gquit in 15 days.
Generally speaking it is harder to socialize with strangers online today and often players like me, simply don’t much anymore. Except for the folks we know in RL or over the years in games.
Anyhow, I don’t want to lose sight of your point with my tangents…
I wonder if the reality is that the adventure wasn’t lost, it’s that developers began thinking they were wholly responsible for it. Adding so many details and removing the mystery that helps creates a grand adventure in the first place.
I think what we are really seeing is the migration of the console people into PC gaming.
PC gaming was always a niche crowd but as PC's became more prevalent in more homes, more people had access to MMO's. The console market has always been larger than the PC market game wise and I think what we're seeing is gaming companies catering to the console style of gameplay because that is where the majority of the market came from now.
With the advent of WoW, the MMO marlet was flooded with these types of players and the genre has been downhill ever since as other developers try to copy Blizzards formula rather than trying something different.
In the early days of MMO's, the big 3 that really brought MMO's mainstream were very different from each other. UO, AC1, and EQ1 were in no way similar, and that's what made them great. You actually had quests that took days instead of hours(Atlan wepaons, Shadow armor come to mind from AC1 off the top of my head). Now everything is a cookie cutter version of everything else with a different skin and the instant gratification mentality is strong in these games. There really is no sense of adventure(IMO) but rather what treadmill do we run to get the next shiny item mentality.
*shrug*
I don't know where the genre is headded but IMO it has been pretty stale for about 5 years now. There are a few indie developers that are trying to break the mold and get back some of that old school gaming feel(Fallen Earth comes to mind) but I am constantly amazed by the people that try these games crying because everything isn't spelled out for them ala WoW/console game style.
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
The whole point of an MMO is to play with other people and make friends!! Massively MULTIPLAYER Online Roleplaying Game. How fun was playing DnD or Diablo by yourself? Definitely not as fun as playing with your friends right? So I can in no way see why grouping with people can take away from a game and the game that encourages you to solo play would be BETTER.
This is a sweeping generalization and, while it may be valid from your limited viewpoint, it is not accurate for a large, if not majority portion of any playerbase. There are many reasons why people play games online and equally as many reasons why people don't like being forced to play shackled to other people. I won't go into the same, tired completely inaccurate "Multiplayer Means Groups" argument. There are plenty of those out there.
Game developers like to focus on group content for one thing and it's not so you can make friends. MONEY! The more time you spend looking for a group to run the same tired instances over and over, the more time you spend doing things for your Guild, the more time you spend just "chatting" means more subscription dollars for the company and the less content they have to spend money producing. It more than a little distressing that every new game seems to come out with some online multiplayer component because the perception is that that's where the money is. If playing with your friends is a concern of the developer, then why has LAN play been virtually eliminated? The answer again, is money.
I play for my own entertainment, which involves feeling part of a persistent, living world. I'm not online looking for friends (that's what Real Life is for), nor am I interested in being the content that keeps someone else logging on.
"Soloists and those who prefer small groups should never have to feel like they''re the ones getting the proverbial table scraps, as it were." - Scott Hartsman, Senior Producer, Everquest II "People love groups. Its a fallacy that people want to play solo all the time." - Scott Hartsman, Executive Producer, Rift
I want to adventure with my friends, not seven random jerks on the internet. Very few of my friends play MMO's these days.
THEN PLAY A REGULAR MULTIPLAYER GAME DAMN IT! Quit trying to change a genre of gaming to your liking. I don't go into MW2 and make everyone hold hands and sing lullabies. Or demand that football games include D&D minigames every new inning. So you shouldn't go into a Massive Multiplayer games and demand that you be able to play by your self or with your small group of friends. When MMORPG's are meant to be played with a group of friends AND strangers. You're playing in a simulated world that everyone makes world, not YOUR world where you are in charge.
So as a 75% of the time solo player I say - reward me when I group but don't punish me when I solo. And the entire game should be playable solo -
How about this? The game world has easy to really difficult mobs. The difficult mobs require more wore to kill but the benefit is more XP. Unfortunately you cannot solo these because they are beyond your skill. So that means you need like minded adventurers to help you out. That is what MMORPG is supposed to be.
What you want is this: I can only play for 30 seconds and want the same XP as a full group fighting red conned mobs. WAH WAH it isn't fair that they get more XP than me because I only can/want to play for a little bit and don't want to bother with interacting with strangers. I'm not in this Massively Multiplayer game world to interact with people, I'm here to get more experience than them and have more fun by myself!
D2 had a better system then any MMO. Players 1-8 - more and better drops with more players (grouping) but you could still run the Boss solo with a decent character. Random item drops based on TC treasure class rather than "this boss drops this item".
Then why aren't you playing those kind of games and leave other genres alone? The reason I am so defensive about MMORPG's is because I fell in love with them when I stepped into the world of Norrath for the first time where everyone roleplayed a little out of respect for the game and where you had constant interaction with others.
Then all of a sudden, people started coming in and demanding that everything be easier because they cannot be bothered with any of the current way things work and since it was such a large influx of people who never played multiplayer RPG's (or even multiplayer at all) they come in with a mind of a singleplayer and can't wrap their heads around the concept of "living in a world" with other people. They're used to living in their own little world.
Sorry if I sound like a flamer, but It's people that use this as their reason that really irritates me and makes me sad that I lost my favorite kind of gaming.
Heh, this would be a less subtle way of making the point I tried to make above.
Never the less, it is spot on!
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
Something that I've notced lately (I'm 14 btw) with these forums and with new MMOs coming out and what it has turned into. Let me explain by starting off with a generation that I missed.
I missed the generation of pen and paper and the old school Dungeons and Dragons. But I have a good idea of why people fell in love with these genre in the first place. It allowed you to be someone you could never hope to be and to go places and go on adventures that you could never hope to take on in real life. It was your imagination doing the work while you had a great time playing with your friends. MMOs now don't require your imagination to do much of anything, because the world your playing in is someone elses imagination. It's pretty awesome in every aspect you look at it.
I don't think people loved to go placed they never hoped to go, think it's the oopposite as in people wanted to explore places that go beyond that what we know. Fight enemy's you can't in real life as they are none-exciting in the way they are presented in games
I read the LoTRO vs. WoW column and when the 'Solo Play' in LoTRO was rated lower because the quests required you to group with other people that made me come to a realization. The whole point of an MMO is to play with other people and make friends!! Massively MULTIPLAYER Online Roleplaying Game. How fun was playing DnD or Diablo by yourself? Definitely not as fun as playing with your friends right? So I can in no way see why grouping with people can take away from a game and the game that encourages you to solo play would be BETTER.
People keep making the same mistake over and over again in asuming MMORPG means grouping with other people, there are allot of different way's to socialize in MMORPG, grouping is just one part of it. The genre is indeed called Massive Mulitplayer Role-Playing-Game and NOT!!!! "Massive Grouping Online Game".
I've also read the 'When did Instant Gratification Usurp Adventure?' thread and that got me thinking. Playing an MMO should make you feel like a hero on an epic adventure and along the way you collect items and gear, trophies or what have you to make you stand out from everyone else.
Singleplayer games should make me feel like a hero, how could you actually feel like a hero when you already know tons of thousands of other people will probebly be doing the same thing as you are? MMORPG should make me make my own story, place me in the mids of the world, making my journey worthwhile. The more a game tries to make me feel like a hero the less I actually feel like one.
People are attracted to WoW because you get to the top so fast and it kind of gives the illusion that since you have all these epic items that you're awesome! But are you really? The guy next to you is wearing 6 pieces of the same gear. I guess it works but not for me or anyone else who is seeking more than some shallow gameplay and an easy reward system.
Agreed.
In short I think that MMOs lack a real sense of adventure True in most MMORPG's and fail to make you seem like a hero. I'm not saying that grinding your ass off to feel special is the way to go either. I think that the content should be harder, and longer (I'm talking about dungeons). They should be more difficult and add a sense of adventure, therefore when you finish it and claim your reward it actually feels like you've earned it.
Just wondering why people want to feel like a hero in a MMORPG, but I would understand it if you want to feel like a hero it could involve you saving someone from being attacked, where that person might have difficulty handling his enemy's where you turn up and save the day.
To be honost I don't really like epic gear, it only limits the challenge within this genre, as I feel allot more challenging engaging into fight with no epic gear and if I come out a winner I feel allot more accomplishment then when I would be wearing this so-called epic gear. For example I played WoW off and on but only whore crafting clothing, I had people come up to me and ask why I wasn't wearing any purples, I just responded that I liked a challenge even if this meant I could be defeated, it gave me allot more challenge then when I picked up some purple gear, tho when I went into some of it's battlegrounds I did in fact change into some purples but in the "outside" world at pve I really didn't need it. But it was the "outside" at PVE where I was confronted many times by those wondering why I wasn't wearing any purple gear.
I also dislike the trinity as again it limits the challenge, it becomes far to predicteble, sure it takes time to set up good tactics and might be even harder in random pugs, but it gives me allot more fun/challenge when engaging into fights.
EQ was great in it's time. I've recently subscribed a few times and it's almost like nothing has changed as far as grouping. As a tank i'm still LFG for 3 hours. Just dont care to have to spend 15$ and that be 3-4 nights a week always soloing while LFG. I still love grouping.
Originally posted by SgtEcho The whole point of an MMO is to play with other people and make friends!! Massively MULTIPLAYER Online Roleplaying Game.
I stopped reading right there, because that is not the point of MMO's.
It's about having a virtual existence in a persistent world. I do stuff, I log out, come back a few days later, and the world's been doing it's own thing while I was away, yet my stuff is still there.
The biggest misconception about mmo's is that they are supposed to be "massively cooperative online role playing games".
That is not the case.
Let's say I leave the big city to go off on my own, wandering deep into the wilderness, to explore the lands unknown. I might kill off some wildlife, take down a band of roaming bandits, rescuing a random adventurer (who happens to be another player, say) that was in trouble, we have a nice social encounter ( he thanks me, we discuss what we've seen in the area, i say over that way there's this this and this, he says over there is that, that and that) then go our separate ways, I wander around for a few (in-game) days, then eventually wander into a little village, where I buy some supplies, have a chat with some locals, maybe help some out (random quests), sleep for a few days (log out til next week), then go on my way. After a while I wander back to the big city I started out from, my pack laden with artifacts and resources I happened to find, which I promptly sell on the markets (ah), then go over to the crafting guildhall and get my gear repaired/replaced. After a while I am ready to go off on a new adventure.
That is pure MMORPG. No cooperative group play, no making friends (although that random guy I saved would be more inclined to be 'friendly' if we ever bumped into each other). I "play with other people" because I interacted with the market and some crafters.
Now, if I had wanted to take over the small village, chances are I would have needed to bring a small posse to help out, so that would involve some grouping, perhaps a guild, etc. It all depends on what you want to do.
No where in this was I the "hero of the world" like in many themepark mmos, I am just one of thousands of random dudes doing their thing, potentially impacting the world, or perhaps not. But it was a great adventure, it was!
The themepark mmos, the WoW's and the like, they don't feel like "an adventure" because you are just doing what everyone else did, following a series of hierarchic paths, nothing changes, doesn't matter what you do, the next person to come along has to do exactly the same "hero" stuff you did. You aren't a hero, you are just a cog in the machine, a rat running on a wheel in a cage.
This is why us old timers constantly gripe about the lack of decent sandbox mmos. A game where you are actually a part of the world, not just a machine playing a meaningless set part, an actor forced into a role.
That is what the pen and paper D&D offered: an active role in an alternate universe. A second life if you will (and no, I don't even want to get into Second Life and it's not even being a game!).
Oh and a final thought: the vast majority of crafters in mmos are solo players.
The whole point of an MMO is to play with other people and make friends!! Massively MULTIPLAYER Online Roleplaying Game.
I stopped reading right there, because that is not the point of MMO's.
It's about having a virtual existence in a persistent world. I do stuff, I log out, come back a few days later, and the world's been doing it's own thing while I was away, yet my stuff is still there.
The biggest misconception about mmo's is that they are supposed to be "massively cooperative online role playing games".
That is not the case.
Let's say I leave the big city to go off on my own, wandering deep into the wilderness, to explore the lands unknown. I might kill off some wildlife, take down a band of roaming bandits, rescuing a random adventurer (who happens to be another player, say) that was in trouble, we have a nice social encounter ( he thanks me, we discuss what we've seen in the area, i say over that way there's this this and this, he says over there is that, that and that) then go our separate ways, I wander around for a few (in-game) days, then eventually wander into a little village, where I buy some supplies, have a chat with some locals, maybe help some out (random quests), sleep for a few days (log out til next week), then go on my way. After a while I wander back to the big city I started out from, my pack laden with artifacts and resources I happened to find, which I promptly sell on the markets (ah), then go over to the crafting guildhall and get my gear repaired/replaced. After a while I am ready to go off on a new adventure.
That is pure MMORPG. No cooperative group play, no making friends (although that random guy I saved would be more inclined to be 'friendly' if we ever bumped into each other). I "play with other people" because I interacted with the market and some crafters.
Now, if I had wanted to take over the small village, chances are I would have needed to bring a small posse to help out, so that would involve some grouping, perhaps a guild, etc. It all depends on what you want to do.
No where in this was I the "hero of the world" like in many themepark mmos, I am just one of thousands of random dudes doing their thing, potentially impacting the world, or perhaps not. But it was a great adventure, it was!
The themepark mmos, the WoW's and the like, they don't feel like "an adventure" because you are just doing what everyone else did, following a series of hierarchic paths, nothing changes, doesn't matter what you do, the next person to come along has to do exactly the same "hero" stuff you did. You aren't a hero, you are just a cog in the machine, a rat running on a wheel in a cage.
This is why us old timers constantly gripe about the lack of decent sandbox mmos. A game where you are actually a part of the world, not just a machine playing a meaningless set part, an actor forced into a role.
That is what the pen and paper D&D offered: an active role in an alternate universe. A second life if you will (and no, I don't even want to get into Second Life and it's not even being a game!).
Oh and a final thought: the vast majority of crafters in mmos are solo players.
Alright well maybe I was wrong there, but as someone mentioned earlier multiplayer is interacting with other people directly and indirectly for the most part.
And if not being revered as a 'Hero' after saving some village wouldn't be as nice as actually being revered as one. If not a Hero, at least recognized. I feel like in a sandbox you get more of those 'heroic' elements because there is no set way or linear path to take.
Someone mentioned Runescape earlier. I still play that, well I'm actually taking a break for now but yeah, you can do whatever you want in that game. It kind of does make you feel like a hero. The NPCs remember you going on that quest to slay that dragon and need your help because you're so awesome.
I think I would enjoy a sandbox where the only advancements to your character are the storylines and items that you've collected -- like gear and such.
Yeah, I may not be entitled to the game of my dreams but who says I can't make it? I got plenty of time, I'll make it happen.
I agree that the "Multiplayer" in MMORPG merely states that you can play with other people but it is not a requirement. It's just a description. not necessarily the whole point. Same as I hardly see any roleplaying in any of the games I play. No matter what they are called, people can play them just the way they like it. Who are you, or anyone of us, to tell people how to play their games?
Grouping is not always better.
I played... well GM'd mostly, a lot of PnP games and I never liked the old-school type of MMOs. All these reinventions of old-school MMOs don't look good either. So I guess I don't fit your generalization.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I agree that the "Multiplayer" in MMORPG merely states that you can play with other people but it is not a requirement. It's just a description. not necessarily the whole point. Same as I hardly see any roleplaying in any of the games I play. No matter what they are called, people can play them just the way they like it. Who are you, or anyone of us, to tell people how to play their games?
That's absolutely true but the thing is that it starts to matter how people play their games when it changes the way the game worked for everyone else. It's the same reason behind why they have to ban cheaters from online games. It's because they are changing the way the game plays for everyone else.
Grouping is not always better.
That's true, but it's better than constant soloing. For instance when I played WoW, I have absolutely NO interaction with other people what so ever and I thought to myself, "What am I even doing here?" because I'd be just grabbing quests for an area; doing the quests, then turn them in. Rinse repeat. At least with grouping, things are always changing due to play styles and conversations.
I played... well GM'd mostly, a lot of PnP games and I never liked the old-school type of MMOs. All these reinventions of old-school MMOs don't look good either. So I guess I don't fit your generalization.
I'm starting to think that classic style MMORPG's are different than PnP games. It's seems on the surface that MMORPG's are straight copies of PnP games. In a way they are. But there is something else there that I don't think is copied from anything else that's out there. I think it's actually being put in a new and different world. You don't really get that in books or PnP or even other video games. I played a couple Vampire PnP games with my sister and her friends, and I didn't care much for it at all. But when I played EQ I was just totally thrown into this real world where I could do what I want. The first thing I did in EQ was fish and I had a blast doing it. Then I grouped with my sister and her boyfriend in DAoC and we camped some mob at night. I remember being scared to move out of the spot he pulled to because I couldn't see past the torchlight and there was no map or way of knowing where I was.
To me it's not a question of group or solo, but socializing or isolation, together or alone.
To those who think the Multiplayer in MMORPG doesn't mean teaming with other players, let me ask you this:
If you were in a shop wondering which game to get and spotted a multiplayer game (FPS for example), would you buy it on the assumption that you could play it solo? If not, why then do you think you should be allowed to solo in a massively multiplayer game?
In short I think that MMOs lack a real sense of adventure and fail to make you seem like a hero. I'm not saying that grinding your ass off to feel special is the way to go either. I think that the content should be harder, and longer (I'm talking about dungeons). They should be more difficult and add a sense of adventure, therefore when you finish it and claim your reward it actually feels like you've earned it.
To those who think the Multiplayer in MMORPG doesn't mean teaming with other players, let me ask you this:
If you were in a shop wondering which game to get and spotted a multiplayer game (FPS for example), would you buy it on the assumption that you could play it solo? If not, why then do you think you should be allowed to solo in a massively multiplayer game?
Mostly beacuse MMORPG does not have group anywhere in name. I love the option to solo or group, being forced to do one exclusively annoys me, and I'll end up passing a game that does force either.
I don't see the point of forced grouping in a game, nor do I see the point of forced soloing. I can do stuff solo or group in realife, why should I not be able to in a game that is supposed to be more adventurous than realife? I mean since when does adventure mean being confined to one way of doing things?
My god has horns.... nah, I don't think he is real either.
Comments
Hey Sgt.
I like your post and especially how well written it is.
I agree with some things such as immersing one's self in another world and your supposition that people like wow because it allows them to feel epic relatively quickly, but I'm not on board with the "mmo is to play with other people and make friends".
I did enjoy Diablo as a truly solo game and Neverwinter Nights (D&D) was a solo game for me as well. Had a blast.
I play these games to be immersed in a world and to play alongside others. But not necessarily to make friends or play together. I have done this and have made friends but this is a consequence of me playing these games, not a reason.
Also, there are people who don't want to be a hero but do want to partake in these game worlds in their own fashion.
Just some food for thought.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Good post. I'm in a similar boat, having missed the "good ol' days" of pen & paper RPGs and the grandaddy MMOs. You know what the sad part is? There's only a handful of modern MMOs that make you feel like you're on an adventure. You know what the really sad part is? Only one MMO has quests that make you feel that way (that I can think of):
Rune. Scape. Rune-f'ing-scape, the game filled with 10 year olds and "FREE ST00F Pl0X" noobs. The game tailored for children. Its quests have more adventure than the millions of tasks found in the "better" MMOs (I'm not going to call killing 10 rats or delivering a flower to a girl for a shy Gnome a quest. It's a task. It's something you'd pay someone minimum wage to do). Some "better" MMOs do have nice chains of quests, which feel slightly epic, and LotRO is an exception because its storytelling quality sets it apart. But in general, RuneScape... come on. That's just sad.
You were talking about dungeons mainly, but I'm talking about quests. Dungeons are great and all, but I think they should involve a little more exploring/puzzle-solving and a little less pulltrash-pulltrash-boss-bathroom break-pulltrash-pulltrash-boss-EPIX!!! There should also be a variety. If you're storming a castle, it should be a straight-up clusterfook of NPC slaughter and mayhem. If you're going into the cave of the Water Fairies, it should be a bit more mysterious and unknown with limited combat.
I agree with you about WoW as well, but I think the main reason people play nowadays is because their friends do. Honestly, most people don't really care about it until their friend starts blabbing about it. Then they get curious, do the trial, and they're hooked.
I don't necessarily agree with your thoughts on what "Multiplayer" means in MMO. You don't have to hang out with friends all the time in an MMO for it to be multiplayer. Look outside the box. MMOs are about player interaction, and that can be both direct and indirect.
Direct: You help your friend with a quest.
Indirect: You buy an item from a crafter you'll likely never meet in-game.
Both examples are valid, and an MMO should have both if it wants to be good. Therefore, you can solo all you like, but you'll still be playing in a "multiplayer" game. That's the beauty of it. If you're an absolute hermit who avoids people as much as possible, never says a word, never trades or buys materials for crafting, doesn't join a guild, etc., then there's not much point to playing an MMO. But you can still play that way if you really, really want to.
You shouldn't be the hero in an MMO. It's lame when you have 100,000 "Chosen Ones" destined to save the world. You should be your own character. Whether there are templates that guide you or a more sandbox system where you basically have free rein, you craft your character the way you want it to be. It helps if there are ways to make it unique, but if not, who cares? Not everyone is unique in the real world, so in a simulated world, should it be any different? MMOs bend the rules of reality, not break them. Like the Matrix. You can reasonably expect/predict behavior and the gameplay quality by looking at real life.
Excellent post. You are advanced beyond your years.
So you spent years paying a sub fee to take the game down?
I think you make some good points but the fact of the matter is, the reason why a game that req. to party takes away from the rating is because for instance, say I only have an hour to play, I don't wanna waste 25 minutes to get a group together to do 2 quest, I should be able to do things on my own if I have to.
Now I don't think there is anythign wrong at all with grouping, because you do make friends and sometimes get into guilds that way and everything. It just should not be a req. to play the game and get some things done.
Now about the sense of adventure and heroism.....most games i've played(ill use wow since ive played that one the longest) most times when there is new content I feel a sense of adventure and heroism if its like my first few times thru a place and getting bosses down for the first time or if its the first time ive seen a certain boss. But after 6 months of the same raids, downing he same bosses and content, there is no way to really feel it anymore. Thats one thing I've liked about certain games you know like diablo for instance, except for the main bosses, you can go to a place on time and there is a mini boss, and its random on what skills or auras or powers her has. Where as the next time you go there is no mismi boss. There is always a twist and it dictates rather your ready for a encounter or not.
Anyways that is my take on it......
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WoW
-Rhalon 85 B.E. rogue
-Rhalon 81 UD Mage
-Doneski 85 Orc death knight
"Everyones life has a beginning and an end, No one can change that."-Hiko
"If you wish to taste the ground, then feel free to attack."-Kenshin Himura
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Good post O.P and I am in total agreement. It's very nice to know that there are some teenagers out there today with more than a half a brain:)
. D&D is still alive and kicking. My advice to you is get some mates together and get a game up and running if you can. When I was 14 nobody in my school was interested in it so I couldn't play either. It was a farming community and most of the kids didn't know what a pencil was or how to count higher than six. It wasn't until I got to colledge that I found some like minded freinds then I never looked back. Anyway, I feel like pnp may scratch that little adventure itch you have been having.
My issue with grouping:
I want to adventure with my friends, not seven random jerks on the internet. Very few of my friends play MMO's these days.
So as a 75% of the time solo player I say - reward me when I group but don't punish me when I solo. And the entire game should be playable solo -
D2 had a better system then any MMO. Players 1-8 - more and better drops with more players (grouping) but you could still run the Boss solo with a decent character. Random item drops based on TC treasure class rather than "this boss drops this item".
Even the 14 year olds can spot the tired rubbish we are putting out in MMO content these days.
Where are all the posters who tell me that it is because we are jaded? Because I have burn out? He is 14, has he got 'burn out' as well?
No time like the present to try D&D - http://wizards.com/dnd/TryDnD.aspx
You have a nice lull in between major releases unless you are going for FFXIV next month. When it comes to MMORPG games a lot of them inherently require you to determine or discover the adventure within, by dev design or not.
I will say some of my best online memories of adventure were not the 24+ people raids or PUGs. But when I had 4 or 5 people I ran around with consistently. I can definitely attribute that to the old days of AD&D with maybe 8 of us on regular basis every weekend for good times.
Today I think it is harder to find the adventure because in part it is harder to find the people looking for it.
So many gogogo or “thanks got my 10 kills, I’m out.” When you have 4 more and now can’t do it. Gigantic zerg guilds/organizations, medium size guilds that are hard to warm into as they are so used to the gogogo who /gquit in 15 days.
Generally speaking it is harder to socialize with strangers online today and often players like me, simply don’t much anymore. Except for the folks we know in RL or over the years in games.
Anyhow, I don’t want to lose sight of your point with my tangents…
I wonder if the reality is that the adventure wasn’t lost, it’s that developers began thinking they were wholly responsible for it. Adding so many details and removing the mystery that helps creates a grand adventure in the first place.
I think what we are really seeing is the migration of the console people into PC gaming.
PC gaming was always a niche crowd but as PC's became more prevalent in more homes, more people had access to MMO's. The console market has always been larger than the PC market game wise and I think what we're seeing is gaming companies catering to the console style of gameplay because that is where the majority of the market came from now.
With the advent of WoW, the MMO marlet was flooded with these types of players and the genre has been downhill ever since as other developers try to copy Blizzards formula rather than trying something different.
In the early days of MMO's, the big 3 that really brought MMO's mainstream were very different from each other. UO, AC1, and EQ1 were in no way similar, and that's what made them great. You actually had quests that took days instead of hours(Atlan wepaons, Shadow armor come to mind from AC1 off the top of my head). Now everything is a cookie cutter version of everything else with a different skin and the instant gratification mentality is strong in these games. There really is no sense of adventure(IMO) but rather what treadmill do we run to get the next shiny item mentality.
*shrug*
I don't know where the genre is headded but IMO it has been pretty stale for about 5 years now. There are a few indie developers that are trying to break the mold and get back some of that old school gaming feel(Fallen Earth comes to mind) but I am constantly amazed by the people that try these games crying because everything isn't spelled out for them ala WoW/console game style.
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
This is a sweeping generalization and, while it may be valid from your limited viewpoint, it is not accurate for a large, if not majority portion of any playerbase. There are many reasons why people play games online and equally as many reasons why people don't like being forced to play shackled to other people. I won't go into the same, tired completely inaccurate "Multiplayer Means Groups" argument. There are plenty of those out there.
Game developers like to focus on group content for one thing and it's not so you can make friends. MONEY! The more time you spend looking for a group to run the same tired instances over and over, the more time you spend doing things for your Guild, the more time you spend just "chatting" means more subscription dollars for the company and the less content they have to spend money producing. It more than a little distressing that every new game seems to come out with some online multiplayer component because the perception is that that's where the money is. If playing with your friends is a concern of the developer, then why has LAN play been virtually eliminated? The answer again, is money.
I play for my own entertainment, which involves feeling part of a persistent, living world. I'm not online looking for friends (that's what Real Life is for), nor am I interested in being the content that keeps someone else logging on.
"Soloists and those who prefer small groups should never have to feel like they''re the ones getting the proverbial table scraps, as it were." - Scott Hartsman, Senior Producer, Everquest II
"People love groups. Its a fallacy that people want to play solo all the time." - Scott Hartsman, Executive Producer, Rift
Heh, this would be a less subtle way of making the point I tried to make above.
Never the less, it is spot on!
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
To be honost I don't really like epic gear, it only limits the challenge within this genre, as I feel allot more challenging engaging into fight with no epic gear and if I come out a winner I feel allot more accomplishment then when I would be wearing this so-called epic gear. For example I played WoW off and on but only whore crafting clothing, I had people come up to me and ask why I wasn't wearing any purples, I just responded that I liked a challenge even if this meant I could be defeated, it gave me allot more challenge then when I picked up some purple gear, tho when I went into some of it's battlegrounds I did in fact change into some purples but in the "outside" world at pve I really didn't need it. But it was the "outside" at PVE where I was confronted many times by those wondering why I wasn't wearing any purple gear.
I also dislike the trinity as again it limits the challenge, it becomes far to predicteble, sure it takes time to set up good tactics and might be even harder in random pugs, but it gives me allot more fun/challenge when engaging into fights.
EQ was great in it's time. I've recently subscribed a few times and it's almost like nothing has changed as far as grouping. As a tank i'm still LFG for 3 hours. Just dont care to have to spend 15$ and that be 3-4 nights a week always soloing while LFG. I still love grouping.
I stopped reading right there, because that is not the point of MMO's.
It's about having a virtual existence in a persistent world. I do stuff, I log out, come back a few days later, and the world's been doing it's own thing while I was away, yet my stuff is still there.
The biggest misconception about mmo's is that they are supposed to be "massively cooperative online role playing games".
That is not the case.
Let's say I leave the big city to go off on my own, wandering deep into the wilderness, to explore the lands unknown. I might kill off some wildlife, take down a band of roaming bandits, rescuing a random adventurer (who happens to be another player, say) that was in trouble, we have a nice social encounter ( he thanks me, we discuss what we've seen in the area, i say over that way there's this this and this, he says over there is that, that and that) then go our separate ways, I wander around for a few (in-game) days, then eventually wander into a little village, where I buy some supplies, have a chat with some locals, maybe help some out (random quests), sleep for a few days (log out til next week), then go on my way. After a while I wander back to the big city I started out from, my pack laden with artifacts and resources I happened to find, which I promptly sell on the markets (ah), then go over to the crafting guildhall and get my gear repaired/replaced. After a while I am ready to go off on a new adventure.
That is pure MMORPG. No cooperative group play, no making friends (although that random guy I saved would be more inclined to be 'friendly' if we ever bumped into each other). I "play with other people" because I interacted with the market and some crafters.
Now, if I had wanted to take over the small village, chances are I would have needed to bring a small posse to help out, so that would involve some grouping, perhaps a guild, etc. It all depends on what you want to do.
No where in this was I the "hero of the world" like in many themepark mmos, I am just one of thousands of random dudes doing their thing, potentially impacting the world, or perhaps not. But it was a great adventure, it was!
The themepark mmos, the WoW's and the like, they don't feel like "an adventure" because you are just doing what everyone else did, following a series of hierarchic paths, nothing changes, doesn't matter what you do, the next person to come along has to do exactly the same "hero" stuff you did. You aren't a hero, you are just a cog in the machine, a rat running on a wheel in a cage.
This is why us old timers constantly gripe about the lack of decent sandbox mmos. A game where you are actually a part of the world, not just a machine playing a meaningless set part, an actor forced into a role.
That is what the pen and paper D&D offered: an active role in an alternate universe. A second life if you will (and no, I don't even want to get into Second Life and it's not even being a game!).
Oh and a final thought: the vast majority of crafters in mmos are solo players.
8'^( I tried saying it nicely. I think the large red text is what got me in trouble.
Alright well maybe I was wrong there, but as someone mentioned earlier multiplayer is interacting with other people directly and indirectly for the most part.
And if not being revered as a 'Hero' after saving some village wouldn't be as nice as actually being revered as one. If not a Hero, at least recognized. I feel like in a sandbox you get more of those 'heroic' elements because there is no set way or linear path to take.
Someone mentioned Runescape earlier. I still play that, well I'm actually taking a break for now but yeah, you can do whatever you want in that game. It kind of does make you feel like a hero. The NPCs remember you going on that quest to slay that dragon and need your help because you're so awesome.
I think I would enjoy a sandbox where the only advancements to your character are the storylines and items that you've collected -- like gear and such.
Yeah, I may not be entitled to the game of my dreams but who says I can't make it? I got plenty of time, I'll make it happen.
I agree that the "Multiplayer" in MMORPG merely states that you can play with other people but it is not a requirement. It's just a description. not necessarily the whole point. Same as I hardly see any roleplaying in any of the games I play. No matter what they are called, people can play them just the way they like it. Who are you, or anyone of us, to tell people how to play their games?
Grouping is not always better.
I played... well GM'd mostly, a lot of PnP games and I never liked the old-school type of MMOs. All these reinventions of old-school MMOs don't look good either. So I guess I don't fit your generalization.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
To those who think the Multiplayer in MMORPG doesn't mean teaming with other players, let me ask you this:
If you were in a shop wondering which game to get and spotted a multiplayer game (FPS for example), would you buy it on the assumption that you could play it solo? If not, why then do you think you should be allowed to solo in a massively multiplayer game?
Couldn't agree more with you
Mostly beacuse MMORPG does not have group anywhere in name. I love the option to solo or group, being forced to do one exclusively annoys me, and I'll end up passing a game that does force either.
I don't see the point of forced grouping in a game, nor do I see the point of forced soloing. I can do stuff solo or group in realife, why should I not be able to in a game that is supposed to be more adventurous than realife? I mean since when does adventure mean being confined to one way of doing things?
My god has horns.... nah, I don't think he is real either.
you aren't multiplaying if you are soloing.
if there are multiple players, you are multiplaying.
It is the definition of the word, not that hard to understand...
Kinda why FPS's have to say team multiplay if they have team multiplayer features. Multiplayer only means there is more than one player.
My god has horns.... nah, I don't think he is real either.