Just because someone pays the same to access a service, does not entitle them to act like a raving jackass towards other customers.
That is just wishful thinking. No one, not you, not the developers, have the resource to monitor and control behavioral online. In fact, they ALL behave exactly the way they want to. Nothing can be done about it, except, of course, get away from them and NOT play.
Dropping group because someone else in the group did something wrong is widely variable. If you do it when the mistake was an honest mistake, then it shows a lack of patience and understanding from your part. If it was a huge mistake and the person was making repeated minor mistakes before, then it could be justification to leave the group. if the person intentionally did something to wipe the group, then it's understandable to leave the group to avoid said person.
Yeah, so i have a lack of patience and understanding for some unknown players. Sue me. Do I want to spend valuable time to understand every newbie who don't know the basic 5-man dungeons? NO .. or at least not every day.
It's more than just that though. There are people who drop group in the middle of a pull, or even fight, that causes a wipe, and they do it for no good reason. There are people who throw hissy fits and leave group if the leader wants to skip a few extra pulls, and on the flip side if the leader wants to do a full clear.
People want different things. What is wrong with the people who want full clear NOT grouping with people who want a speed run? There are plenty of people out there. Find the ones who have the same goals.
Sure, we're all paying our $15 a month to have access to a game. But we're all still people, and we're in it together. Just because you pay your subscription, it does not entitle you to be a selfish jerk.
We are CERTAINLY not in it together. I am certainly NOT in it with other 11.5M players. I may be in it with my guilds (i am in a few), my friends and my family, but cetainly not with any joe or bob out there. And once again, it is empty to say "it does not entitle to ....". The truth is, there is no behavior control online, like it or not.
The sickly ironic thing of it, is that there are so many people who complain that MMO communities are terrible today, yet they promote and perscribe to the kind of selfish playstyle behavior that is degrading positive social interation in those very games.
I never complained. I think it is just fine and i am having fun online.
Firstly, nowhere did I suggest that players be monitored 24/7 and reprimanded for not adhering to common decency. All I was suggesting is simply that players should be more understanding and respectful of each other; to show a little common decency towards each other, which ironically is extremely uncommon these days.
Also, I never suggested that you weren't having fun doing what you do. You fall into the category of the selfish gamer. You do what you want, when you want, no matter if it negatively impacts another gamer, so long as you benefit. Which is exactly why you're having fun in your perception, because you get to do what you want, everyone else be damned.
What I am suggesting, is that maybe you might have more fun if your perspective was a little more community oriented.
Personally, I used to be a selfish gamer when I was younger, and I was also extremely hardcore. I still raided and 'played' with other gamers, but the group I was in was composed of selfish gamers. To be blunt, it was very cutthroat, unfriendly, and generally a stressful experience to raid. Sure I still had fun, but...
When I shifted my perspective and started being friendlier and more understanding, things changed. I made friends in the MMOs I played, rather than acquaintances. The players who I'd label in my mind as noobs and not worth my time because they caused a wipe, I was more patient with. It turns out, some of those players were really nice people, and the majority of them weren't bad players either, they just made a simple mistake that day or needed some advice in playing their class. I would continue to group with these people, which was significantly more enjoyable than with random pugs. It got to the point where there were enough of us to start raiding, and we did, and were pretty damn successful too. The best thing about it though, was that I was doing it with friends, and having a blast doing it.
So while you may be having fun now being an MMO-loner, you could be having significantly more fun if you just give others more of a chance, and aren't so unforgiving and selfish about the games you play.
Of course, it's probably a pipedream to expect most gamers these days to actually be mindful of each other. When I changed my perspective, I did still run into a lot of incompetant players, as well as selfish players. Despite that though, it was less frustrating than when I'd take the selfish gamer outlook on things.
Despite what you think, players of an MMOs are in it together. They may not all interact with each other, but many of them do interact with each other, and their actions influence each other. And whether you want to believe it or not, you are part of a community, and your behavior affects other players just as their behavior affects you.
OP appears to have forgotten the many possibilities: 1. the player is not doing what I want him to do syndrom where everyone in the group pretends to know "the best way to complete the mission. This is the number one sign of Wanna-be hardcore player. 2. Perhaps the identified player in the group is new to such activities and "what one says is least important than how it is said". 3. The blamer who identifies another player for not doing things the "right" way after he screws up the sitrep.
NO OP, the game is YOUR free time luxury however, a game is a game to many of us other players. I leave a group anytime I feel the want/need/desire as I am not there to fullfill anyones...wants. Remember, on NA servers "its a free country".
Thus is another aspect of the casual vs hardcore arguement of MMOs.
I'm starting to believe more and more that some casual MMO players simply shouldn't be playing MMOs at all, or at least accept that they can't "have their cake and eat it too" when it comes to experiencing the full range of content if they're unwilling or unable to commit themselves.
Honestly, if something "feels like work" to them, then why would they be playing the game in the first place?
Then don't group with them. They can play whatever way they want to. You have total freedom of not to associate with them. The world is big enough that you can find plenty of those who play like you.
True, unfortunately there are a lot of people who think they get to dictate how everyone else plays and if someone doesn't meet their standards, there's obviously got to be something wrong with them. It can't be that the standards were idiotic to begin with.
But luckily, I don't have to play with those retards either. The door swings both ways.
There's a growing trend in selfish MMO gamers, and a good amount of them seems to be a portion of the more casual gamers. It's these players that I question whether or not they should really be playing an MMO if they apparently can't treat other players who they share gamespace with respectfully.
They pay the same $15 a month as you do. And MMOs are business open to all. I don't see why a player needs to "respect" anyone. If he wants to be a dick, let him. Black list and don't play with him.
I drop group too if someone cause a wipe in a simple 5-man wow dungeon. Sue me.
Just because someone pays the same to access a service, does not entitle them to act like a raving jackass towards other customers.
Sure it does. So long as someone doesn't violate the terms of service for the game, they can act any way they damn well please and if you don't like it, you're welcome to put them on ignore and not play with them. You don't get to dictate how anyone else plays, any more than anyone else gets to dictate how you play. Don't like it? Go elsewhere. Welcome to FREEDOM.
Lack of respect is exactly why MMO communities are going down the toilet, because there are simply too many players, both casual, hardcore, and everywhere in between, that only ever think about themselves, and how they can benefit themselves no matter if it causes problems for other players.
No, the reason most MMO communities are going down the toilet is because there's no single standard for what makes a good community anymore. Back in the day, it was all the geeks playing and they all saw the world pretty much the same way and wanted the same thing out of a game. Because there was a single viewpoint, there was a single community. Today, however, there are many, many, many people playing the game and they all have different approaches, want different things and therefore, it's not just one community, but dozens. It's much harder to find a group of people who play only the way you want to play. Welcome to the mainstream.
And you know something? None of their standards of play are any better or worse than yours.
Dropping group because someone else in the group did something wrong is widely variable. If you do it when the mistake was an honest mistake, then it shows a lack of patience and understanding from your part. If it was a huge mistake and the person was making repeated minor mistakes before, then it could be justification to leave the group. if the person intentionally did something to wipe the group, then it's understandable to leave the group to avoid said person.
It's more than just that though. There are people who drop group in the middle of a pull, or even fight, that causes a wipe, and they do it for no good reason. There are people who throw hissy fits and leave group if the leader wants to skip a few extra pulls, and on the flip side if the leader wants to do a full clear.
Yes, there are. If you decide you don't want to play with them, don't. No harm no foul. I'm sure there are dozens or even hundreds of other groups they can get into, stop acting like your group is really worth anything more than any other. Make a decision, move on with your life.
Sure, we're all paying our $15 a month to have access to a game. But we're all still people, and we're in it together. Just because you pay your subscription, it does not entitle you to be a selfish jerk.
It entitles you to play the game however you want to play it, so long as you don't violate the terms of service. Nobody says you have to like it. Nobody says you have to play with those people. In fact, nobody really gives a damn what you think. Find people you want to play with and play with them. It solves all the problems.
The sickly ironic thing of it, is that there are so many people who complain that MMO communities are terrible today, yet they promote and perscribe to the kind of selfish playstyle behavior that is degrading positive social interation in those very games.
No, what's degrading positive social interaction is the idea that there is only one way to play a game and your way is the only right way. There will always be jerks and when you have such a wide range of players in a game, one side is always going to see the other side as a bunch of idiots. Well guess what? They think the same of you.
There's a growing trend in selfish MMO gamers, and a good amount of them seems to be a portion of the more casual gamers. It's these players that I question whether or not they should really be playing an MMO if they apparently can't treat other players who they share gamespace with respectfully.
They pay the same $15 a month as you do. And MMOs are business open to all. I don't see why a player needs to "respect" anyone. If he wants to be a dick, let him. Black list and don't play with him.
I drop group too if someone cause a wipe in a simple 5-man wow dungeon. Sue me.
If the game or dungeon are so easy that one wipe is unacceptable, why even play?
Why not? I don't necessary want to try for ICC hard mode all the time. May be i have 15 min to kill in between raids. May be i want to see whether i can top the DPS chart.
There are plenty of reason to do something easy once in a while.
There's a growing trend in selfish MMO gamers, and a good amount of them seems to be a portion of the more casual gamers. It's these players that I question whether or not they should really be playing an MMO if they apparently can't treat other players who they share gamespace with respectfully.
They pay the same $15 a month as you do. And MMOs are business open to all. I don't see why a player needs to "respect" anyone. If he wants to be a dick, let him. Black list and don't play with him.
I drop group too if someone cause a wipe in a simple 5-man wow dungeon. Sue me.
Im curious, are you a tank or a healer?
Because dps that join groups dont have that luxury. I recently leveled a warlock alt to 80 and now a disc priest, and I can say without a doubt, tanks and healers are the only ones that will turn there nose up and leave the group.
If a dps does that, 20+ mins is much longer than an instant que.
Personally, I try to suck it up and make it happen. As the healer I have a large control of how well everything goes and if somethings out of place like a tank not waiting for me to get mana, charge out of my los, dps trying to tank, debuffs not being removed, etc etc-- then I say something. Its not too often that even in a bad group, I cant get through the dungeon.
DPS. On my server, the wait is like 10-12 min. And i would rather wait 10-12 min than grouping with people i don't like. Plus, it is not like i cannot do other things while i wait.
Wow you sir are the exact definition why I believe MMO communities have become utter garbage as of late. It used to be fun to help out your fellow gamers and teach them new encounters and experience content together. I don't necessarily blame you directly, but I blame the current game design trend for attracting gamers like you.
Teaching a newbie once may be fun but i certainly dont want to do it again and again. And what is fun to YOU may not be fun to me. Blaming is irrational since nothing is going to change.
And you don't have to group with me. There are millions of players out there. I am sure you can find some whom you like.
Then don't group with them. They can play whatever way they want to. You have total freedom of not to associate with them. The world is big enough that you can find plenty of those who play like you.
True, unfortunately there are a lot of people who think they get to dictate how everyone else plays and if someone doesn't meet their standards, there's obviously got to be something wrong with them. It can't be that the standards were idiotic to begin with.
But luckily, I don't have to play with those retards either. The door swings both ways.
Exactly. There are millions of people out there. Finding some whom you like is not that difficult. In fact, most players you ecountered, you will never see again.
There's a growing trend in selfish MMO gamers, and a good amount of them seems to be a portion of the more casual gamers. It's these players that I question whether or not they should really be playing an MMO if they apparently can't treat other players who they share gamespace with respectfully.
They pay the same $15 a month as you do. And MMOs are business open to all. I don't see why a player needs to "respect" anyone. If he wants to be a dick, let him. Black list and don't play with him.
I drop group too if someone cause a wipe in a simple 5-man wow dungeon. Sue me.
Im curious, are you a tank or a healer?
Because dps that join groups dont have that luxury. I recently leveled a warlock alt to 80 and now a disc priest, and I can say without a doubt, tanks and healers are the only ones that will turn there nose up and leave the group.
If a dps does that, 20+ mins is much longer than an instant que.
Personally, I try to suck it up and make it happen. As the healer I have a large control of how well everything goes and if somethings out of place like a tank not waiting for me to get mana, charge out of my los, dps trying to tank, debuffs not being removed, etc etc-- then I say something. Its not too often that even in a bad group, I cant get through the dungeon.
DPS. On my server, the wait is like 10-12 min. And i would rather wait 10-12 min than grouping with people i don't like. Plus, it is not like i cannot do other things while i wait.
Nice. The wait time on my server is rough if I am going in as dps.
I guess my other reason for trying to make it work, Ive played WoW since release and as you know, the dungeon finder feature hasnt always been there. So back in the day, for me at least, it was a pain to find a group. And then once I did, it never failed, one pull might not go perfect, nobody wiped but here comes the bitching....always over something small...but the group blows up. Not there problem, they werent the ones that spent 20mins putting a group together.
It always pissed me off, like really? You cant just man up and get it done?
But there are some terrible players out there, and not saying something, is hard to do. I bet you have some stories, my latest involves a fire mage who does horrible dps and doesnt use her fire spells because she is going arcane...
When entering a group to play a dungeon, there are afew things to consider.
1. Do I have enough time? People dropping in the middle of an dungeon run is rude. Even if its the first time you've ran it, you should realize there is gonna be time invlovled and make sure you have enough. The exception being if you did ask and let the party leader know you only had an hour, and he re assured you that you would breeze thru it in plenty of time. Then you end up not "breezing" thru it.. Dropping shouldnt be viewed as bad. Since you previously agreed on terms. Though attempting to find a replacement from your friendslist before you have to drop might make you out to be the ubercool person you are.
2. Is the group im joining prepared? Am I Prepared? Theres nothing like finding the healer you've been searching for, then having the leader tell the group," Just let me buy pots and sell on the AH real quick!". Why join the party? Sometimes we dont care, because its hard to get a support class sometimes, but other classes do the same thing. Its frustrating.
3. Can you play your class? If your new, say so. Let people know this is your first time running this dungeon. Ive asked, and everytime i do i get pointers about what to expect and how i should react per my class. Things to look out for. Special situations. Quest pointers. There have also been times ive been kicked. But those are few and far between.
4. What are your goals for this dungeon? Speak up! Dont wait till the group is ready to skip a section of the dungeon before you say you need it for your quest. If 5 outta 6 people running this dungeon are running it for loot, and have already finished the quests, you might get a negative reponse if you dont let them know prior to entering what your goals are for the dungeon.
Doing this will ensure you have a BETTER time doing content like this.
On the other hand, there are reason to forgive a person for messing up. People are sometimes to critical. Though i have dropped out of partys where my assumptions were wrong and NO ONE knew what the hell they were doing. I have also helped people that want to be helped. Some dont though.
The biggest thing to remember in an mmo grouping situation is, people are people here just like in real life.
You have assholes, snitches, kiss asses, whores, liars, theifs, sneaks, so on and so forth. People complain. More then anythings else most of the time. And argue, or debate. Which is why i love me some forum topics XD
I agree wit the OP but you have to make allowances for people who are new to your MMO or new to grouping. Lets not turn those people away from grouping by expecting too much too soon.
There's a growing trend in selfish MMO gamers, and a good amount of them seems to be a portion of the more casual gamers. It's these players that I question whether or not they should really be playing an MMO if they apparently can't treat other players who they share gamespace with respectfully.
They pay the same $15 a month as you do. And MMOs are business open to all. I don't see why a player needs to "respect" anyone. If he wants to be a dick, let him. Black list and don't play with him.
I drop group too if someone cause a wipe in a simple 5-man wow dungeon. Sue me.
Im curious, are you a tank or a healer?
Because dps that join groups dont have that luxury. I recently leveled a warlock alt to 80 and now a disc priest, and I can say without a doubt, tanks and healers are the only ones that will turn there nose up and leave the group.
If a dps does that, 20+ mins is much longer than an instant que.
Personally, I try to suck it up and make it happen. As the healer I have a large control of how well everything goes and if somethings out of place like a tank not waiting for me to get mana, charge out of my los, dps trying to tank, debuffs not being removed, etc etc-- then I say something. Its not too often that even in a bad group, I cant get through the dungeon.
DPS. On my server, the wait is like 10-12 min. And i would rather wait 10-12 min than grouping with people i don't like. Plus, it is not like i cannot do other things while i wait.
Nice. The wait time on my server is rough if I am going in as dps.
I guess my other reason for trying to make it work, Ive played WoW since release and as you know, the dungeon finder feature hasnt always been there. So back in the day, for me at least, it was a pain to find a group. And then once I did, it never failed, one pull might not go perfect, nobody wiped but here comes the bitching....always over something small...but the group blows up. Not there problem, they werent the ones that spent 20mins putting a group together.
It always pissed me off, like really? You cant just man up and get it done?
But there are some terrible players out there, and not saying something, is hard to do. I bet you have some stories, my latest involves a fire mage who does horrible dps and doesnt use her fire spells because she is going arcane...
Hahahah ... well .. to be honest, i am a lot more tolerant for dps not performing in 5-man, just cause i can carry them. (I am decked out in ICC 25 gear, so I can prob dps a 5-man alone except the ICC 50man). But i tolerate a lot less for a fail tank or healer. (BTW, a fail tank != one who cannot keep up with me since i know i need to manage threat myself)
Comments
Firstly, nowhere did I suggest that players be monitored 24/7 and reprimanded for not adhering to common decency. All I was suggesting is simply that players should be more understanding and respectful of each other; to show a little common decency towards each other, which ironically is extremely uncommon these days.
Also, I never suggested that you weren't having fun doing what you do. You fall into the category of the selfish gamer. You do what you want, when you want, no matter if it negatively impacts another gamer, so long as you benefit. Which is exactly why you're having fun in your perception, because you get to do what you want, everyone else be damned.
What I am suggesting, is that maybe you might have more fun if your perspective was a little more community oriented.
Personally, I used to be a selfish gamer when I was younger, and I was also extremely hardcore. I still raided and 'played' with other gamers, but the group I was in was composed of selfish gamers. To be blunt, it was very cutthroat, unfriendly, and generally a stressful experience to raid. Sure I still had fun, but...
When I shifted my perspective and started being friendlier and more understanding, things changed. I made friends in the MMOs I played, rather than acquaintances. The players who I'd label in my mind as noobs and not worth my time because they caused a wipe, I was more patient with. It turns out, some of those players were really nice people, and the majority of them weren't bad players either, they just made a simple mistake that day or needed some advice in playing their class. I would continue to group with these people, which was significantly more enjoyable than with random pugs. It got to the point where there were enough of us to start raiding, and we did, and were pretty damn successful too. The best thing about it though, was that I was doing it with friends, and having a blast doing it.
So while you may be having fun now being an MMO-loner, you could be having significantly more fun if you just give others more of a chance, and aren't so unforgiving and selfish about the games you play.
Of course, it's probably a pipedream to expect most gamers these days to actually be mindful of each other. When I changed my perspective, I did still run into a lot of incompetant players, as well as selfish players. Despite that though, it was less frustrating than when I'd take the selfish gamer outlook on things.
Despite what you think, players of an MMOs are in it together. They may not all interact with each other, but many of them do interact with each other, and their actions influence each other. And whether you want to believe it or not, you are part of a community, and your behavior affects other players just as their behavior affects you.
OP appears to have forgotten the many possibilities: 1. the player is not doing what I want him to do syndrom where everyone in the group pretends to know "the best way to complete the mission. This is the number one sign of Wanna-be hardcore player. 2. Perhaps the identified player in the group is new to such activities and "what one says is least important than how it is said". 3. The blamer who identifies another player for not doing things the "right" way after he screws up the sitrep.
NO OP, the game is YOUR free time luxury however, a game is a game to many of us other players. I leave a group anytime I feel the want/need/desire as I am not there to fullfill anyones...wants. Remember, on NA servers "its a free country".
True, unfortunately there are a lot of people who think they get to dictate how everyone else plays and if someone doesn't meet their standards, there's obviously got to be something wrong with them. It can't be that the standards were idiotic to begin with.
But luckily, I don't have to play with those retards either. The door swings both ways.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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Now Playing: None
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Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Why not? I don't necessary want to try for ICC hard mode all the time. May be i have 15 min to kill in between raids. May be i want to see whether i can top the DPS chart.
There are plenty of reason to do something easy once in a while.
DPS. On my server, the wait is like 10-12 min. And i would rather wait 10-12 min than grouping with people i don't like. Plus, it is not like i cannot do other things while i wait.
Teaching a newbie once may be fun but i certainly dont want to do it again and again. And what is fun to YOU may not be fun to me. Blaming is irrational since nothing is going to change.
And you don't have to group with me. There are millions of players out there. I am sure you can find some whom you like.
Exactly. There are millions of people out there. Finding some whom you like is not that difficult. In fact, most players you ecountered, you will never see again.
Put those you don't like on your ignore list.
Nice. The wait time on my server is rough if I am going in as dps.
I guess my other reason for trying to make it work, Ive played WoW since release and as you know, the dungeon finder feature hasnt always been there. So back in the day, for me at least, it was a pain to find a group. And then once I did, it never failed, one pull might not go perfect, nobody wiped but here comes the bitching....always over something small...but the group blows up. Not there problem, they werent the ones that spent 20mins putting a group together.
It always pissed me off, like really? You cant just man up and get it done?
But there are some terrible players out there, and not saying something, is hard to do. I bet you have some stories, my latest involves a fire mage who does horrible dps and doesnt use her fire spells because she is going arcane...
When entering a group to play a dungeon, there are afew things to consider.
1. Do I have enough time? People dropping in the middle of an dungeon run is rude. Even if its the first time you've ran it, you should realize there is gonna be time invlovled and make sure you have enough. The exception being if you did ask and let the party leader know you only had an hour, and he re assured you that you would breeze thru it in plenty of time. Then you end up not "breezing" thru it.. Dropping shouldnt be viewed as bad. Since you previously agreed on terms. Though attempting to find a replacement from your friendslist before you have to drop might make you out to be the ubercool person you are.
2. Is the group im joining prepared? Am I Prepared? Theres nothing like finding the healer you've been searching for, then having the leader tell the group," Just let me buy pots and sell on the AH real quick!". Why join the party? Sometimes we dont care, because its hard to get a support class sometimes, but other classes do the same thing. Its frustrating.
3. Can you play your class? If your new, say so. Let people know this is your first time running this dungeon. Ive asked, and everytime i do i get pointers about what to expect and how i should react per my class. Things to look out for. Special situations. Quest pointers. There have also been times ive been kicked. But those are few and far between.
4. What are your goals for this dungeon? Speak up! Dont wait till the group is ready to skip a section of the dungeon before you say you need it for your quest. If 5 outta 6 people running this dungeon are running it for loot, and have already finished the quests, you might get a negative reponse if you dont let them know prior to entering what your goals are for the dungeon.
Doing this will ensure you have a BETTER time doing content like this.
On the other hand, there are reason to forgive a person for messing up. People are sometimes to critical. Though i have dropped out of partys where my assumptions were wrong and NO ONE knew what the hell they were doing. I have also helped people that want to be helped. Some dont though.
The biggest thing to remember in an mmo grouping situation is, people are people here just like in real life.
You have assholes, snitches, kiss asses, whores, liars, theifs, sneaks, so on and so forth. People complain. More then anythings else most of the time. And argue, or debate. Which is why i love me some forum topics XD
I agree wit the OP but you have to make allowances for people who are new to your MMO or new to grouping. Lets not turn those people away from grouping by expecting too much too soon.
Hahahah ... well .. to be honest, i am a lot more tolerant for dps not performing in 5-man, just cause i can carry them. (I am decked out in ICC 25 gear, so I can prob dps a 5-man alone except the ICC 50man). But i tolerate a lot less for a fail tank or healer. (BTW, a fail tank != one who cannot keep up with me since i know i need to manage threat myself)