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General: Fighting Words: EQ2 vs. Vanguard (Part 2)
SBFord
Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
A couple of days ago, MMORPG.com's Adam Tingle started a battle royale between fans of Vanguard: Saga of Heroes and fans of Everquest 2 in his latest Fighting Words column. Adam fans the flames as he takes a look at solo experiences, group experiences, crafting, fluff, the end game and, finally, the bottom line. See if Adam's fighting words make your fanboi blood boil!
Dum, dum, dum, dum. Dum dum, dum dum. Dum dum durr. Rising up, back on the street, took my time, took my chances. Went the distance, now I’m back on my feet, just a man and his will to survive. So many times it happens too fast, you change your passion for glory. Don’t lose your grip on the dreams of the past; you must fight just to keep them alive. It’s the eye of the tiger, it’s the thrill or the fight, rising up to the challenge of our rival, and the last known survivor stalks its prey in the night and he’s watching us all in the eye. Eye of the tiger.
Read more Fighting Words: Vanguard vs Everquest 2.
Comments
Vanguard is on its way to cancellation, EQ2 will be here for years, EQ2 wins on that alone.
How can Vaguard gets 5/10 in population? Really?
What would a 1/10 be, a single player? I mean 2/10 or 3/10 possibly would be right but 5/10 should be a mid number MMO with like 150K - 200K players or so, not 30K.
Most of the scores are ok but some are just too generous.
I got to a higher level in EQ2, not because I enjoyed the game more, but because leveling is easier. The game is enjoyable, but there is just something off about it for me. I feel more immersed in Vanguard. The world actually feels alive for me. There are bugs, but none that are game breaking for me. I wish I could see rain mostly
The monthly Station Pass just ended for me and my wife, we resubbed, but not for the Station Pass, but instead just for Vanguard. I really hope the money actually goes to the game and not to fund their other stuff (which i highly doubt).
Players have different tastes. I don't play fantasy MMOs for grouping with tons of people or raiding, etc. I play to co-op with my wife. Why? Because we are lacking good fantasy based co-op games. For us, we never reach end game, and we play many alts. This is how we enjoy playing, and Vanguard is perfect for that. Will we group or raid later? Sure if we reach that far, if not...doesn't bother us. It is all about the FUN. When we quit having fun, we quit playing. We just quit having fun in EQ2, and found a temporary home in Vanguard.
Nice write up, I enjoy reading other peoples opinions. I request CoH vs CO next.
Someone needs to go to SOE HQ and interview them about Vanguard and push them to put more resources towards it's development...Vanguard is a brilliant game and I really wish more would be done for it. F*** EQ2!
there is no way this guy is playing the same EQ2 that is on my computer!! Crafting in EQ2 is nothing more than Spam this button, Spam that button,, Spam this button!! i should know,, i have had it on my computer since the jan after launch..What he should have said,, was EQ2's Method of crafting is extreamly and even a monkey could be trained to hit 3 buttons over and over and over..
Come on dude,, give us a break here.. This whole write up is soo one sided on Easyquest 2's side,,
This whole article reminded me of comparing a major franchise like burger king or McDonald's to a mom and pop lunch counter...it leave me with one thought..
Who paid you to do the advertisement for EasyQuest 2??
Given equal care and funds, I think Vanguard would have easily been the better game.
The truth is that both games are pretty damned good if you are looking for what they offer.
If VG's astoundingly immersive open world and sub systems like diplomacy etc, and it's group orientated challenging play, could be mixed with EQ2's polish, social tools, and sheer abundence of quality content the result would probably be my perfect game.
As it is I am currently playing EQ2 while I wait for Rift to get here, mainly because it is probably the most duo friendly mmorpg out there right now (which is my main playstyle these days).
Due to all the positive reinforcement as of late, I've actually found myself wanting to play Vanguard again. Can't say the same for EQ2, it just feels....off. Movement speed alone is awful. Not saying it's a bad game, but you did kinda shortchange Vanguard by (maybe not on purpose, but still suspiciously) the areas everyone knows it's the weakest. Not only was the fluff grade ended in just a personal opinion instead of the facts of what were there, but it got graded on such things as development/etc. If you were there with me during closed, open, release of VG, you know what garbage it really turned into. (nerfbat crits VG for sub base) and also how awful the majority of it was actually done before that. The fact that such a tiny team has fixed it is incredible. Also, you didn't grade LOTRO or WoW on that category, which may have altered that also. All I'm saying is consistency.
Seems like the last two categories were added to insure that EQII came out on top even though msot of the pole commenting prefer Vanguard to EQII.
As mentioned before, consistency would be nice. I didnt see those last two categories in the WOW vs. LOTRO write-up. And by population, did you mean entire player base or population per shard? The comments about population on servers seems equal and the commentary about Vanguards player base seems more positive than what was written about EQII's player base.
Anyway imho Vanguard is the better game overall.
Gaming since Avalon Hill was making board games.
Played SWG, EVE, Fallen Earth, LOTRO, Rift, Vanguard, WoW, SWTOR, TSW, Tera
Tried Aoc, Aion, EQII, RoM, Vindictus, Darkfail, DDO, GW, PotBS
Vanguard never had a chance. Soe buying them was just to keep them from sucking eq and eq2 dry. With a bit of support and development vanguard could easily have eclipsed eq and eq2 and been a major playing in the MMO space. But now that's really water under the bridge. Hopefully they will have taken a good long look at vanguard in developing everquest next and please lets hope everquest next isn't ever-free-realms...
---
Ethion
You know, Adam, if I wasn't a long standing member on these forums and know that MMORPG.com has such a dysfunctional view on "failed" games, I would think, this site, admins, hold shares in $OE's MMO market.
I have to give props to $OE for making it free to play cause now they will have people spending $80 a month instead of $15 on virtual xp pots. F2play was about the dumbest thing they could hae done with that game (would have worked better with Vanguard to be honest).
As far as this comparison goes, I have to say it was good descripto but inflated (none of these games deserve anything over a 6). Vanguard lostit's touch when it's direction changed from wanting to progress in life to something better than that living for the moment "grind fix" fiend (SOD and Pota anyone?). AS for EQ2, they pretty much became a different game, all together after going F2P.
My $0.02.
wow, i tought i was the only one who thinks vanguard should be the winner here.....glad to hear that.....thinking about coming back to vanguard for a while now.
it seem a bit biased comparsion to me... when you get voices like developement or EQ having similar or better scores for characters (Vanguard ones are way more varied and fun to play) or crafting (where VG is clearly better than EQ2 one in almost every aspect and whitout factoring diplomacy)
not that i dont agree that VG have a crappy developement and is on "maintenance mode" but in the end, having played both for quite some time i think VG is generally the best game between the 2 while EQ2 have the better crafted experience and is more solo friendly
i also agree with the others who said that if VG had a developemnt and funds similar to EQ2 it will be a waaaaaay better game than EQ2 in every aspect...
I enjoyed my time in Vanguard this last year. SoE carries a number of underserved games so that it's Station Pass looks impressive. They should really try an alternative and just drop Vanguard's subscription fee to $5 or $3 a month. But that probably would not help StationPass.
Watching friends play the Everquests lead me to have no interest in them.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
kind of a surprising result really, i fully expected Vanguard to win this one, though i do agree that the game population and development were, odd choices. particularly as the last one, is the same company for both... on the whole, if i was to consider playing either game again, it would be Vanguard, not EQ2.. imo, its just tells me that SOE's business decisions related to their games, are more ego driven than logical.
You did forget to add up the parts though I believe the end score would be EQ2 100 and Vanguard 87. Other then that there are some issues in my mind regarding your use of the grading system. Neither of these games are perfect in anything therefore no 10/10 should be administered. Population in Vanguard, as stated, should be more like a 2 in my mind
All statements I make is from my point of view unless stated otherwise.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Absolutely agree.
Even without the equal care and funds, in a number of ways, VG is still the better game, IMO.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
That's actually precisely what I'm expecting the next EQ2 to be.... It's going to be F2P/Cash Shop/Station Exchange heaven (for SOE anyway).
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I have been a long long time EQ2 player and a player that always wanted to like VG but couldn't until recently. So that said...
Visual Thwoar
EQ2 - 7, only looks good up close and the engine is terrible
VG - 9, only AoC gives it a run for it splendor and personally VG looks crisper
EverQuest-ness
EQ2 - 5, not EQ redone
VG - 7, closer but still not the monster that is EQ
Game World
EQ2 - 5, years later still only couple douzen zones
VG - 9, varied and truly massive, think I counted 170+ zones
Player Character
EQ2 - 7, lots of options, not terribly meaningful
VG - 7, less options but completely different playstyles
Newbie Experience
EQ2 - 8, pretty much on rails and not terribly fun
VG - 8, more fun but parts are group which isn't always easy to do early on
Community
EQ2 - 6, very much a gated community
VG - 9, small pop, lots of vets, makes community more involved
Solo Experience
EQ2 - 7, 1-90 solo very doable, but nothing interesting along the way
VG - 7, 1-51 is soloable and more interesting 51+ raid only.
Group Experience
EQ2 - 7, good times to be had if you can stand the look of 10fps
VG - 9, good meaningful group content along the way to 55
Crafting & Other Pursuits
EQ2 - 10, plenty to do and its fun
VG - 5, umm no crafting and diplomacy just flat out depress me
End Game
EQ2 - 8, its there but is it ever gated
VG - 8, less to do on paper, less gated so about even
Fluff
EQ2 - 10, lots of pointless dev time spent here
VG - 5, not very fluff focused
On-Going Development
EQ2 - 7, it gets dev time but its awful slow and even years on kind of content short
VG - 5, bug fixes and bug fixes, but has 170+ zones at launch so...
Population
EQ2 - 5, most servers are low pop, 2 are capped, merger be coming I hope
VG - 5, merger came and went, low overall pop but all on one server so... good
EQ2 - 92
VG - 93
Here the thing though... where EQ2 shines I could care less but where it hurts I can't stand it. So when I finish SC2 its back to VG or maybe a stint in AoC but EQ2 is off my drive despite having capped toons and many year vet. VG is finally playable so the game I wanted to like this whole time is finally ready for launch.
O_o.
Seriously, that's like comparing WOW and Asheron's Call 2.
Vanguard was dead the day it was born, the game play reflects an old mantra that no one is interested in, and is perhaps one of the worst games ever released that managed to stay afloat more than a year after release.
It should do the world a favor and die like MXO.
Shadus
I can't help but sense a strong Vanguard bias on the scoring. On features where Vanguard is a winner, you drop EQ2 to a 4, but when EQ2 is a clear winner - like On-Going development and population, vanguard still gets decent marks? WHAT development? EQ2 has massive updates every few months and a massive expansion at least once a year. Population? How can you even compare when Vanguard is nearly dead. Vanguard does win on a few of these counts (like immersion), but on pointsl like the two above it should be 10:1 in favour of EQ2.
Anyhow, it's easy to criticize and hard to deliver, so I'll provide my own opinions. (I've not played Vanguard for a while and never at endgame btw)
Visual Thwoar
EQ2 - 8 - despite being 6 years old, EQ2 is still one of the best looking games on the market. The combat animations are more fluid than in any game I've played, even AoC. The art design on EQ2 has always been really plain, so in this sense the game suffers. Stuff is done in high quality but is generally uninspired.
VG - 5 - Vanguard has some beautiful open areas and a few strokes of brilliance in art design of cities (Dwarven & Elven cities especially). However the character models look terrible and all the same and the combat animations are few and very choppy.
EverQuest-ness
I played eq1 for maybe 2 hours, so i don't feel right assigning a score here. .
Game World
EQ2 - 4 - eq2's game world is pretty terrible in terms of immersion. There is little to no interaction with the world and zones - while very large and diverse - have odd borders and are very theme-parky.
VG - 6 - Vanguard is a little better in terms of immersion, but at the same time the world is unnecessarily empty, travelling is not thought-through very well and the lack of instancing for it's own sake does nothing but create frustrations. There is still no interaction with the game world and it comes nowhere close to games like AO or SWG in terms of immersion or world feel.
Player Character
EQ2 - 7 eq2 has a few too many classes, which they've had to manage for a while and not always successfully.
VG - 8 i haven't played more than 2 classes in Vanguard, but some of the class choices (Bloodmage) were quite unique and interesting. However I've also heart some horror stories about other classes, still, I'll rank Vanguard a bit higher here.
Newbie Experience
EQ2 - original - 9, updated 9 (avg 9) - on launch EQ2 had a fantastic newbie experience with the newbie island having small and easy to digest examples of all types of things offered in the eventual game. It also made sense storywise and soon dropped you in a big city to continue exploration. Over the years the island experience was supplemented with other starting areas that helped lead players from 1-20 in a long soloable storyline that also geared the player out and taught skills as it went. More recently the island was removed altogether. Both newbie experiences are excellent in their own way, although some feel the new one holds hands too much, still for a game that has a minimal lowbie population, i think it's a good decision to create an experience that propels players to higher level asap.
VG - original - 10, updated 6 (avg 8) - when I played it launch, Vanguard's race-specific newbie experience was the best I'd ever had. Not only did it teach me to play, but it lead me carefully through combat, diplomacy, crafting and my race's place in the game's lore. It's was great. When i went to the game a year (or two?) later, this was gone, replaced by a generic "same for all" experience that immediately turned me off.
Community
EQ2 - 6 - the community isn't terrible and one some servers is a lot better than a 6. At the same time, it seems even the biggest fans of EQ2 harbour some resentment towards the game, its developers and everything else. The game's terrible immersion doesn't help foster community either.
VG - 8 - people who like it, like it a lot.
Solo Experience
EQ2 - 10, if you love to solo, you'll love EQ2. The majority of the 1-90 game has been revisited and updated to be soloable. This is done to make it easy to get up to the end-game and enjoy the grouping where the grouping is good.
Vanguard - 6, Soloing in vanguard I always felt like "really, i should probably have a group". It was also somewhat class-dependant. At the time I played, most group quests weren't really doable solo even if you were a bit higher level.
Group Experience
EQ2 @ 1-89 = 3, @ 90 = 10. There is plenty of stuff to group throughout the game. But the game is 6 years old, so the good stuff is at level cap. Once you get to the group stuff, it just doesn't get any better. I've not had better small group experiences in any other game. The group Instances have content for a wide variety of skill levels and there are fascinating encounters and great loot. The grouping is also more skill-based than time-based, in that any group dungeon can be done in an hour by skilled players. The folks with a lot of time on their hands will just run multiple dungeons.
VG - 8, Vanguard's lack of instancing and ill-conceived death mechanics made it extremely time-consuming and frustrating to group. If i only had two hours to play, i generally just didn't bother after a while. On those ocassions when I did have over two hours to spend and lucked into a good group, it was quite fun to dive deep into a contested dungeon. There was a time when EQ2 offered this same experience, but they unfortunately got away from it in the last 3 expansions.
Crafting & Other Pursuits
EQ2 - 5 crafting is boring and completely useless. there is lots of stuff to make though. yay for pretty bedside tables.
VG - 6 vanguard gets 6 for effort. diplomacy was one of the coolest ideas for a video game and nothing i've tried in other games made me ass anxious to read the next bit of NPC dialogue. unfortunately it was under-developed on its own and the developers never took the next step of tying it to other gameplay spheres (one day my raid will need to bring diplomats to a dungeon, one day!!!)
End Game
EQ2 - 10. awesome. easy to get into but hard to master (every idiot with a sword has raided SOMETHING, yet not guild worldwide has cleared everything - lots of inbetween). Friendly to all playstyles, rewarding and can be done on own schedule.
VG - 8 - honestly, i'll take people's word on this. I never got to VG endgame myself.
Fluff
EQ2 - 10 to quote another poster "lots of pointless dev time spent here"
VG - 5 i remember very little fluff in VG, but i guess diplomacy can be considered fluff and as far as fluff goes, it's awesome (just wish it was more than fluff)
On-Going Development
EQ2 - 10. EQ2 is constantly getting new stuff added, developers have recently comitted to adding a new zone quarterly and have been more or less on pace with it.
VG - 2 - well, it hasn't been cancelled yet, i guess that counts.
Population
EQ2 - 7 lowbie population is terrible and makes it hard on new people. endgame population is excellent on many servers with lots of guilds of different playstyles.
VG - 5 having less servers is good for those that play, but not for game overall.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
Oh come on, crafting in EQ2 is approaching the absurd. one of the poorer crafting systems I have experienced. I can't imagine giving it a 9/10, maybe a 4 if I was generous.
Only thing I could think of is that the OP has never crafted much in good crafting systems. You should get and play more before judging a craptastic system as being good.
EQ2 is the "juggernaught" that is getting prepared for yet round another of server mergers and still trying to figure out what roles classes should play in the game.
Vanguard is the little game that could..... have been something special if it was owned by a company that actually cared.
It is rather absurd to see so many ratings above 6 for two games that are years past their prime and shadows of their former selves.
I figured VG would win this, although its good to see others enjoying the game. For the skeptics on VG just give the game a shot.