But complaining constantly on this site will "improve a game"? More people complain about WoW on this site than any other MMORPG. Show me where any of that complaining has led to changes in WoW. You overestimate the importance of this site.
WoW is established and has years under it's belt. It can afford to be arrogant and ignore criticism. New releases these days don't have that luxury. They'd be stupid to not be paying exceptionally close attention to what's being said about their product because their potential clients can *easily* go elsewhere for their gaming fix. There's just too much competition in MMO land to blow off the criticisms of a game that is on the cusp of going live. Even if the developers choose to ignore it, many gamers won't.
Well I have been playing MMOs since Ultima Online Beta and playing FFXIV since Alpha Test 10 and I have played far more than 10 hours. I've also seen the large changes come about and seen the feedback from other testers.
Everything in this post is my opinion. I do not care if you agree or disagree with it.
The majority of testers do not like the UI because it is needlessly complicated. If you are in an area with many people and you wish to change gear, put in stat points, and change your action skills then it can take a while. If you are in the same area and are trying to sell to an NPC it can take you a while. I was on Lindblum and it took 1 minute for the NPC to open the sell items window. On a less crowded server it took about seconds. On a less crowded server the mouse is much smoother(but not as smooth as if hardware mouse was put in. Another thing a majority of Alpha/Closed Beta testers have been asking for.) It took 2 months for S-E to add in working mouselook.
You can be enjoying yourself and be immersed till the UI breaks it. Which it frequently does. It is very frustrating to be fighting a mob and fighting the UI at the same time. Even controller folks have submitted feedback to S-E that they too have to fight the UI.
This game is a PC game first and a console game second. Yet the Keyboard and Mouse, which are default controls for a PC, are lacking. Full keyboard customization is not in. You cannot bind the camera to the arrow keys like FFXI had it. You cannot change the colors on the chat box like you could in FFXI. The argument that people should just go use a controller is ridiculous. S-E should have keyboard/mouse just as good as controller. That way you bring more people in and it is more successful. The "controller-only" folks tend to be very hostile whenever someone brings up fixing the keyboard/mouse controls. The default PC control crowd doesn't advocate that S-E remove controller support, so why do controller people advocate not fixing the keyboard and mouse? I guess people just don't want the game to succeed.
There is no travel time in the game. You can teleport to any aether crystal you've already been to.
The mobs in combat attack just the same as in FFXI. There is nothing special or bad about the way they attack.
Cities are needlessly large but I expected that and at times enjoy it. It adds to the immersion.
The cutscenes and story are typical S-E, aka engaging and captivating.
Levequests are fun but the limit per 48 hours is a bit silly. S-E did say they are looking into changing it.
Crafting is similar to FFXI, annoying as hell. That is purely my opinion as I despise crafting in any MMO lol. So if you enjoyed the crafting in FFXI you'll enjoy it in FFXIV.
Class switching is nice. Being able to just switch a weapon and boom you are another class is excellent. Be prepared though to create tons of macros for gear/classes just like in FFXI. If you do not make a macro to switch weapons and equip skills then you will need to navigate the horrible menu and equip them. Which after level 20 will take you quite a while to do without a macro.
Lack of an Auction House is another thing testers have pointed out. Instead we have Market Wards that are not searchable. Not to mention, the entrances to these Market Wards are not on the map so enjoy searching for the entrance then enjoy searching for a player run stall that has the item you wish to buy. You cannot search for it.
Once you finish all your levequest and cannot continue the story you will need to either craft or grind. To some that is bad, to me I don't care lol. There is no PVP. One thing I am glad they don't have.
I, personally, believe that S-E should delay the game. Rework the UI, add in hardware mouse, and add in full keyboard customization. I know many FFXI players who are not going to play simply because S-E hasn't really learned from other MMOs, even FFXI.
Even after the hundreds of hours I've put in to testing the UI/Keyboard/Mouse still will frustrate me. No, I will not get a controller but you are welcome to play however you wish. I play PC games with a mouse and keyboard. If I wanted to use a controller I'd go buy a PS3 and play on that.
Some people like the color blue, but the poeple who are truely experienced and can understand the quality of colors would know to appreciate the color red.
People who prefer the color blue just do not get what makes red such a great color and fail to see its qualities.
But there is hope for them blue color lovers, they could learn to understand the qualities of the color red and appreciate it.
Good writeup, Syaoranli, I agree with most of what you wrote there. Finally, here was a good objective post on what's wrong with Final Fantasy XIV that actually had some basis in fact over opinion. The quibbles I could find with it are minor:
There is pretty extensive travel time in the game for many reasons: because the pace of travel seems rather luxuriously slow and you'll need to brave hazards to the crystal to begin with, because eventually you'll run out of the points to teleport unless you ration them, and because there's still a lot of walking after you got to your crystal destination, like walking around town or hunting the fields.
I'm kinda surprised you've been playing the game for hundreds of hours and are "fighting" the GUI. I'm only about 20 hours in and I'm pretty used to it. I'm not using a Gamepad the majority of the time, either, so I'm not sure what you're doing there. Granted, it does lag, both machine and Internet lag, perhaps that's what you're referring to. Also, maybe you're insisting on using the mouse on the menus, which is guarenteed to generate misery: don't do that, seriously, even if they ever get around to implementing a hardware mouse I bet navigating these kinds of embedded menu with mouse (instead of cursor or gamepad) would suck eggs.
Anywho, I, the OP, am totally in agreement that the GUI could be better. I said it on the very first post, where I referred to it as "console-hobbled" and at most the only thing I said contrary to that you can get used to and become reasonably comfortable with the interface even though it's not optimal. This has been my experience, and many others have agreed with this sentiment. That one can become comfortable with the interface does not imply that the Interface cannot be improved. For example, one thing I'd really like is for the interface to remember which abilities are associated with which job so I don't have to manually set them up every time I re-equip my tool.
It's funny, but if you participate in a thread on any subject of minor or greater controversy, it's not so much that you may want to take a side so much as you're shoved there. I acknowledge there are flaws, but apparently you can't point out a connoissour would be willing to overlook these flaws or find them non-flaws (e.g. travel time to justify space) without coming off as arrogant. This ended up attracting a lot of comments from people who exaggerate its flaws, and pointing out these exaggeraitons made it seem as though I was expressing opposition. Express enough opposition to something, no matter how called for it is, and people will draw the conclusion you're no longer even-handed. That put me in fanboy territory regardless of my intent.
Graphics - Stunning! No issues on an okish rig after tinkering with the config utility.
Mouse lag - slight for me, but then I have a high DPI mouse
Crashes - none in the time I played
Gameplay / UI - Ok, I can see what everyone is complaining about. However, I have a sneaky feeling the issues I had were not actually the fault of the game. I'm a tad stuck in my ways, I have the attention span of a gnat, and after almost 40 years, my ability to learn and adapt to a new system is shot to bits! It's doubtful I will play this on launch, but not because its a terrible game. I think it looks like a stunning game, rich, different, complex, interesting and immersive. And the female models have short skirts which makes me strangely drawn to it a little more.
If I can get over my newbie learning panic, and buy a controller, and invest the time into a good solid session after fully reading the manual - then, I will probably love it. But after doing what most people do, and jumping straight in and after 20 minutes going "WHAT?!" then I am going to wait until I have some more time and try again.
BTW - Not being an experienced FF player - what on earth were the white floaty blob people all about!?
"When people don't know much about something, they tend to fill in the blanks the way they want them to be filled in. They are almost always disappointed." - Will Wright
"When people don't know much about something, they tend to fill in the blanks the way they want them to be filled in. They are almost always disappointed." - Will Wright
This game is a PC game first and a console game second.
I am not familiar with FF XIV development but I wonder what your statement is based on.
The game UI could not be more suitable to console controls. You do not implement console UI into a PC game.
He probably bases it on the game coming out for the PC before the PS3 (which is dated March 2011).
There's also some previous precedent here in that Final Fantasy XI has a similar interface and has been operating, for years, with quite a high retention value.
Though clearly it was designed to be console-friendly, it starts to become sketchy whether or not you should call an interface a console interface when it's been that way for years on the PC version of the game XIV is suceeding. Not to mention that, considering just about every Final Fantasy game controls with a similar interface, its inclusion may have been a stylistic choice as much as a functional one.
Actually, XIV does add some new things that you'd associate with a PC MMORPG's, such as the inclusion of an action hot bar.
This game is a PC game first and a console game second.
I am not familiar with FF XIV development but I wonder what your statement is based on.
The game UI could not be more suitable to console controls. You do not implement console UI into a PC game.
No, it's quite clearly a console game ported to the PC. The previous FF Online was the same, and so was everything else SE have done (that I remember). It also plays very much like a console game, and I expect, once its out for the PS3, it will be quite a hit. Console players are quite used to learning a new set of controls and UI for each game they pickup, whereas PC MMO'ers are used to just the one.
Thats not a negative btw, some of the best games are on consoles.
"When people don't know much about something, they tend to fill in the blanks the way they want them to be filled in. They are almost always disappointed." - Will Wright
Some people like the color blue, but the poeple who are truely experienced and can understand the quality of colors would know to appreciate the color red.
People who prefer the color blue just do not get what makes red such a great color and fail to see its qualities.
But there is hope for them blue color lovers, they could learn to understand the qualities of the color red and appreciate it.
This is so true and this is before we even bring green into the picture as well. I mean if you learn the blue and the red and you are capable being a true connoiseur it is only a matter of time until you can appreciate fully the green. Perhaps even the orange and purple if you are so blessed as to be so wonderfully superior to all around you with your great connoiseur abilities. People will likely stand agape or even pass out unable to comprehend the world in the ways you can see it! Alas to be them, the simpletons who cannot see the whole picture, those who cannot hope to perceive the grandiosity that you as a great connoiseur are capable of.
The user will need to be able to adapt to an interface other than strictly mouse and keyboard.
Listen what you are saying: Player should "adapt" to the game. Wrong! Game should adapt to the player.
It is simply a waste of time to answer to all your statements.
In the end, Final Fantasy XIV is a game best appreciated by gaming connoisseurs: those who have a taste for fine quality in the details of their games, to the point where they're willing to overlook the kinds of flaws remaining as trivial in comparison to what is being delivered. People who are only gamers by casual circumstance, and don't get this whole "quality gameplay experience is more important than ease-of-use" thing; who just want to have the thing do what it says on the box so they can get on with their lives; who boot up their games and scream, "entertain me without my having to lift a finger or get out," will likely not be able understand the appeal of Final Fantasy XIV. However, you're certainly welcome to learn.
Oh really? Well, because you allowed yourself to call all others that have the opinion that the game is not that good that they don't have "taste for fine quality" I am allowed to say that you are a fanboy. ... and you are welcome to not be condescending.
Because judging a game based on FRIGGING BETA!!!!!! is really smart!!!! /sarcasm off
Please don't post again unless you have the cojones to wait until LAUNCH to judge a game. Especially a game made by SE who is KNOWN for not including every little detail in their patch notes, betas, and general information.
It will be released in three weeks. I'm willing to come back here and repeat everything I've said at that point, because nothing will change in three weeks, obviously.
What will YOU say then? Prediction: Nothing at all. You'll be back in your hole hoping everyone has forgotten about you.
OP: your post sounds similar to the samething mentioned when other games come out, that is, "this game is not for everyone, only those with up-to-date PC's will enjoy it" and my all time favorite "it is not a WoW clone". If one changes a few complaints and the name of the game it sounds the same as Darkfall/AoC/(fill in the blank). So far I have not ran across the popular excuse "its in beta". With a dase of "this game will not hold your hand" I would say that this game is headed along with the fore said mentioned.
What I am hearing is that the game is for those who can afford a high end pc, that like FF and something new, "this game is for gaming connoisseurs". Now thats a new term for me, For me, before I pay for a game that charges close to WoW and put in another $250. upgrading my pc I want to assure that I can use a mouse and keyboard. It is not about "ease of use" its about being a pc gamer...really. If I was to shift to controlers I would save a ton of money playing another platform. Just a thought.
I do not beleive for one minute Wow was created for low end machines,Blizzard used a cheap game engine they already had,there was no planning what so ever.As far as this game any new PC will play it fine,mine is outdated and i was able to play without any real issues.
Not exactly true. Blizzard started working on Wow in 1997, changed team in '99 when lead designer and several others quit and released late in 2004. That is 7 1/2 years of development and the basics of the engine was up already '99, of course the game could be run on most computers in late '04.
But all blizzards games have been easy to run on a medium computer and that is actually the right way if you want to maximize the number of players. FFXIV great graphics comes with a cost even if it hopefully makes the game last longer.
Originally posted by geldonyetich He probably bases it on the game coming out for the PC before the PS3 (which is dated March 2011).
From what I could read is that PS3 launch was delayed due technical reasons only, something unintended.
Originally posted by jayanti Console players are quite used to learning a new set of controls and UI for each game they pickup, whereas PC MMO'ers are used to just the one.
It is the controllers shaping the controls, not the apps.
I guess whole issue is because of cross-platform servers where different controls of client are an issue. There are not many games allowing multiply platforms so technology and examples are few only.
Making the game console friendly and then 'port' it on PC seems logical and easy - it is far easier to use gamepad UI with keyboard and mouse than the other way round. I sill cannot believe they could not do it better, much better.
I guess they did the numbers well and they will certainly get large player base as they did with FF XI but if I wanted to play console games, I would buy a console. Buying a console game for PC does not make much sense to me.
Originally posted by Mysticum Originally posted by elocke Because judging a game based on FRIGGING BETA!!!!!! is really smart!!!! /sarcasm off Please don't post again unless you have the cojones to wait until LAUNCH to judge a game. Especially a game made by SE who is KNOWN for not including every little detail in their patch notes, betas, and general information.
It will be released in three weeks. I'm willing to come back here and repeat everything I've said at that point, because nothing will change in three weeks, obviously. What will YOU say then? Prediction: Nothing at all. You'll be back in your hole hoping everyone has forgotten about you.
Nothing will change except adding 90% more CONTENT. You keep assuming SE does things the same way every other game company does it. You are a sad, sad little man.
My view of this game has changed a "little bit" since my first comments which were none too positive. I am sure fans do not find the patcher issues to be a "problem" but we are "testing" right. Open beta "test" !!!
The patcher is utterly broken and useless without going to work around solutions. They got three weeks to fix it. Since it is based on what appears to be a flawed methodology I doubt the pater will be even usable at release.
As a tester, I try to use the tools providied and in evaluating the product as is the game is busted from the start with this installer/patcher. Gives gamers their first experience and is not a good one.
HOWEVER- I did get to play for several hours with two characters. Graphically, the game is fantastic. A little sluggish so I turned off the dynamic shadows which increased performance greatly. Cut scenes are wonderfully done.
I did start getting use to the UI and felt OK with it after about half an hour. That being said, it is not intuitive, and as a connoisseur of games I do not find it elegant or comfortable to use. It has a steeper learning curve then most games.
Once again, I did take the time to get use to it.
Then, the game offers NO guidance or direction at all in what you need to do other than a tiny (sort of) combat tutorial in between cut scenes. Again, as a connoisseur of MMOs (if that is how you want to label experienced, open minded MMO gamers), a game in this decade should provide you with some guidance to get going and understand the basics of where to go and what to do. It should not require a manual, not these days.
Again though, once I figured it out and finally figured out how to use the cluncky map and got a quest going or two I had some fun wandering around and looking at the awesome landscape.
As an experienced gamer I did eventually enjoy playing the game but not after some highly frustrating moments and not without seeing some fundenmental flaws.
For any business to be truly successful it must expand its audience. For this game, the barrier to entry is high. You must be experienced and willing to "work around" things at this stage to play. It is obvioisly easiest if you have played the previous game.
Thing of the starting experience with this game for someone newer to the genre...It will suck and they will not become long term players, they will probably feel ripped off, and the player base will not expand past what it would be from the other FF titles...assuming some dramatic changes do not happen in the next few weeks.
On that level, and as it stands today, this game is a failure. As an experienced gamer or gamer who played the last FF MMO you can muddle through and find the fun but you should not have too. A game should be easy to start, easy to grasp but deep to play, and have low barrier to entry. As a connoisseur these things should be important to you.
Hello, been playing electronic games for about 28 years, and dozens of MMORPGs under my belt.
Final Fantasy XIV is pretty much in the same vein as Final Fantasy XI, brought up to date with many notable improvements, and should be appreciated by much the same audience as the players who enjoyed Final Fantasy XI. It doesn't pretend to be anything else, it doesn't bother competing with WoW because that's the wrong audience for it. What is delivers is very solid, with some coveats:
It will require a relatively-up-to-date computer: World of Warcraft was designed to run on two year old computers when it was released seven years ago. Final Fantasy XIV requires a computer that has somewhere along the lines of 20 times the computational power you'd need to run WoW comfortably. I've got a GeForce 250 GTS, 4 GB of RAM, and a quad core processor, a fairly middle-of-the-road system by today's standards: this was enough for an adequate play experience. Anything less, and you'll likely be suffering. If in doubt, try the benchmark.
The controls take some getting used to (especially for non-FFXI players): There is some definate consolitus here, but it can be overcome readily enough. The user will need to be able to adapt to an interface other than strictly mouse and keyboard. WASD travel with mouselook working on holding right click works well enough, but navigating the menus via mouse clicks is ill-advised: get used to using the cursor, enter, and escape key for menu navigation (these can be rebound to other keys). Of course, if you're using a gamepad, you'll find FFXIV is more than ready to accomidate you. Annoyingly, there is a bit of a GUI lag as the client seems to require frequent server interaction, but imagine this will die down a bit as the servers become better at handling the load throughout the duration of the stress test.
RTFM implied, but not well supported during beta: I think it's a fair assumption that there will be a manual included with the game, and it will be required reading. There's a lot of status icons that pop up which you may sorely wish you had a manual about to know what they mean, the context-sensitve help is still in Japanese in this version. There is a wealth of help tips to be found buried in various context menus throughout the game, such as explaining what attributes do, but I've seen easier ways to presenting that information, often they can only be accessed in certain geographical locations in the game.
This game deliberately does not endeavor to make itself easy: The mobs will put up a good fight and easily overcome the unprepared or GUI-flustered. I've encountered local guildleves (a certain kind of quest) where I'm expected to comb entire labyrinthine cities trying to find an NPC by name alone. The grind has definate breadth: it does not assume you loathe playing the game. It's good that the scenery is so enjoyable to take in, as you will spend a lot of time just walking to the same place several dozen times. These things are all different fascets of the essense of difficulty in gaming, their inclusion deliberate, overcoming them being means to enjoy the game. Even the GUI impediment is uniquely stylistically Final Fantasy, and to do otherwise differs from fan expectation.
Crashes and disconnections happen: Fairly infrequently, perhaps to the tune of once every 2-3 hours (give or take depending on how lucky you are) but they happen. Unfortunately, if you happen to be doing a timed Guildleve when you're kicked out of the game, you will fail it. You'll either have the patience to deal with this or you won't, but undoubtedly the frequency of this wil decrease as the game undergoes continued refinement.
In the end, Final Fantasy XIV is a game best appreciated by gaming connoseurs: those who have a taste for fine quality in the details of their games, to the point where they're willing to overlook the kinds of flaws remaining as trivial in comparison to what is being delivered.
People who are only gamers by casual circumstance, and don't get this whole "quality gameplay experience is more important than ease-of-use" thing; who just want to have the thing do what it says on the box so they can get on with their lives; who boot up their games and scream, "entertain me without my having to lift a finger or get out," will likely not be able understand the appeal of Final Fantasy XIV. However, you're certainly welcome to learn.
Hi Craig I see you found a new job, after Cryptic. Yeah, we really don't get it.
I'm afraid you have it the wrong way round. Its more like settling for some cheap plonk, than some fine wine. There is no quaility in FF XIV, at all, other than in the graphics. There is way more wrong with this than simply lag, crashes and the UI. The first two are likely to get fixed, everything else has little chance.
Mobs just stand there taking and putting out damage, just like in any other MMO. They do not "put up a good fight".
umm so you say in beta 3 we ran into mobs that did
I'd recommend for anyone having issues with keyboard and mouse to immediately switch to an xbox 360 or ps2 controller. I myself use the Xbox 360 controller and this game allows you to full customize where you want every action to be. Everything I need to do in game is easy as pie and I have zero diffculty navigating the menus and such.
There are still a few negatives and one was mentioned earlier by another poster. If you are in a crowd it takes FOREVER to open inventory, buy items, pop the guildleve menu and the like. The other negative is that targeting mobs is still needlessly painful ESPECIALLY when dealing with multiple mobs. There should be an auto-attack feature used when a mob is attacking you....that way you're concentration is immediately directed toward them. Having to cancel out of targeting a dead mob and then going back to regular (non-combat) target only to move to another target, engage them and then attack is ridiculous.
All-in-all though, the game is amazing ESPECIALLY since it offers an experience much different from the terrible cookie-cutter MMO's that have been pouring out lately. The immersion is top notch and the story will suck you in immediately. Dont skip through the cutscenes or the dialogue because you will miss the entire game doing so. Killing mobs is only a part of this game, not the end all be all. If you just want to kill stuff play Gauntlet, Aion or WoW...if you want a true Online ROLE-PLAYING Game, give FFXIV a shot!
I'd recommend for anyone having issues with keyboard and mouse to immediately switch to an xbox 360 or ps2 controller. I myself use the Xbox 360 controller and this game allows you to full customize where you want every action to be. Everything I need to do in game is easy as pie and I have zero diffculty navigating the menus and such.
There are still a few negatives and one was mentioned earlier by another poster. If you are in a crowd it takes FOREVER to open inventory, buy items, pop the guildleve menu and the like. The other negative is that targeting mobs is still needlessly painful ESPECIALLY when dealing with multiple mobs. There should be an auto-attack feature used when a mob is attacking you....that way you're concentration is immediately directed toward them. Having to cancel out of targeting a dead mob and then going back to regular (non-combat) target only to move to another target, engage them and then attack is ridiculous.
All-in-all though, the game is amazing ESPECIALLY since it offers an experience much different from the terrible cookie-cutter MMO's that have been pouring out lately. The immersion is top notch and the story will suck you in immediately. Dont skip through the cutscenes or the dialogue because you will miss the entire game doing so. Killing mobs is only a part of this game, not the end all be all. If you just want to kill stuff play Gauntlet, Aion or WoW...if you want a true Online ROLE-PLAYING Game, give FFXIV a shot!
Except, besides for the ridiculous controls and the huge wait in doing anything menu related, the game does NOT do anything different than the other cookie cutter WOW clones. Hotbar attacks, zones, grind, no ability to jump or interact with your environment... what exactly is new besides the horrible controls and ridiculously slow interface?
If you just want to kill stuff play Gauntlet, Aion or WoW...if you want a true Online ROLE-PLAYING Game, give FFXIV a shot!
I tend to be critical when people say something like that. The best online roleplaying experience I ever gotten was still NWN and that was still really far from how good things can be.
Lets just say it is less about killing things and have better RPG experience than Gauntlet, Aion or Wow and be quite about that true thing, ok?
I know I am coming off as a bit arrogant here, but I don't mean to talk down to anyone. It's just really hard to express the sentiment I'm trying to get at without sounding elitist: it's a legitimiate observation that there will be players who have come to recognize certain instrinsic qualities in Final Fantasy XIV which make complaints such as the GUI seem relatively trivial in comparison.
When I say, "you're welcome to learn," I'm not being flippiant, but in much the same way that you'd hold a convention of connoisseurs open to the general public specifically so they can witness the kinds of things connoisseurs find exciting about a particular medium. This guy has the right of it.
You might find that offensive, you might say, "well, I've been gaming for 35 years and I don't recognize these qualities so he's belittling me." But it's more like, just because you've been driving a car for 35 years doesn't mean you're a connosseur of cars. Maybe what you appreciate about the cars is their utiliarian value. You just need the car to get you where you need to go; you just need the game to entertain you. That's fine, but a connosseur is really more interested in the artistic level, and this is what Final Fantasy XIV has going for it.
Of course, the comparison between car operator and connosseur of cars breaks down when you get into the argument that the point of games is to be artistically interesting. I think it's rather important that games do more than entertain cheaply and easily, I like to think games should have more depth, and Final Fantasy XIV gives me some hope along these lines. Considering that this is my belief, it's not too hard to figure out why I find a console-hobbled interface to be a trivial concern.
I describe there as being different "niches" of gamers and maybe that Final Fantasy XIV is just "not for you" if you don't enjoy it. Again, this is not to belittle you. World of Warcraft is often described as "the fast food of MMORPGs," an analogy that reflects that it serves millions but isn't a whole lot more than an extremely polished EverQuest with a more casual-friendly balance, but there's nothing wrong with that for millions of players who just want to get their MMORPG fix. If that's how you meet your caloric needs, who am I to judge? However, what if you don't want fast food? What if you want fine dining? With all the little frilly side dishes like "entirely player driven economy" and "long travel times to give the world a sense of size" and "deep, challenging, largely team-based combat" and such? Final Fantasy games have never been about "fast food" entertainment, and Final Fantasy XIV is no exception.
I'm not leaving you out in the cold. You're all invited to eat fine dining too. It won't even cost more per month. Just don't complain that the food takes 2 hours to get here, as that's not the point, and you're disturbing the other diners. Frankly, we need this, there's dozens of games that go by the World of Warcraft model, let us have a few that don't aspire to serve millions if it means comprimising the exquisiteness of the dish.
I don't think anyone could possibly put it in better terms.
I know I am coming off as a bit arrogant here, but I don't mean to talk down to anyone. It's just really hard to express the sentiment I'm trying to get at without sounding elitist: it's a legitimiate observation that there will be players who have come to recognize certain instrinsic qualities in Final Fantasy XIV which make complaints such as the GUI seem relatively trivial in comparison.
When I say, "you're welcome to learn," I'm not being flippiant, but in much the same way that you'd hold a convention of connoisseurs open to the general public specifically so they can witness the kinds of things connoisseurs find exciting about a particular medium. This guy has the right of it.
You might find that offensive, you might say, "well, I've been gaming for 35 years and I don't recognize these qualities so he's belittling me." But it's more like, just because you've been driving a car for 35 years doesn't mean you're a connosseur of cars. Maybe what you appreciate about the cars is their utiliarian value. You just need the car to get you where you need to go; you just need the game to entertain you. That's fine, but a connosseur is really more interested in the artistic level, and this is what Final Fantasy XIV has going for it.
Of course, the comparison between car operator and connosseur of cars breaks down when you get into the argument that the point of games is to be artistically interesting. I think it's rather important that games do more than entertain cheaply and easily, I like to think games should have more depth, and Final Fantasy XIV gives me some hope along these lines. Considering that this is my belief, it's not too hard to figure out why I find a console-hobbled interface to be a trivial concern.
I describe there as being different "niches" of gamers and maybe that Final Fantasy XIV is just "not for you" if you don't enjoy it. Again, this is not to belittle you. World of Warcraft is often described as "the fast food of MMORPGs," an analogy that reflects that it serves millions but isn't a whole lot more than an extremely polished EverQuest with a more casual-friendly balance, but there's nothing wrong with that for millions of players who just want to get their MMORPG fix. If that's how you meet your caloric needs, who am I to judge? However, what if you don't want fast food? What if you want fine dining? With all the little frilly side dishes like "entirely player driven economy" and "long travel times to give the world a sense of size" and "deep, challenging, largely team-based combat" and such? Final Fantasy games have never been about "fast food" entertainment, and Final Fantasy XIV is no exception.
I'm not leaving you out in the cold. You're all invited to eat fine dining too. It won't even cost more per month. Just don't complain that the food takes 2 hours to get here, as that's not the point, and you're disturbing the other diners. Frankly, we need this, there's dozens of games that go by the World of Warcraft model, let us have a few that don't aspire to serve millions if it means comprimising the exquisiteness of the dish.
I don't think anyone could possibly put it in better terms.
The only thing I dont agree and sort of comes out as wrong is, who are you to say that FF is fine dining in comparison to WoW, your analogy is completely flawed you mention in your own post that ppl compare WoW to fast food because a lot of ppl like it, because a lot of ppl dont like FF does not mean its exquisite and fine dining.
Just because the kebab shop around the corner only gets 1/100th of the customers of the mcdonald's 100 yards away it doesnt make it fine dining and exquisite, it doesnt get customers because of the cockroaches running around and shit food.
And sure they may have kebabs ( player driven economy ) that mcdonald's doesnt offer but all the cockroaches and mice running around really spoil it for me sorry.
In the end, Final Fantasy XIV is a game best appreciated by gaming connoisseurs: those who have a taste for fine quality in the details of their games, to the point where they're willing to overlook the kinds of flaws remaining as trivial in comparison to what is being delivered.
People who are only gamers by casual circumstance, and don't get this whole "quality gameplay experience is more important than ease-of-use" thing; who just want to have the thing do what it says on the box so they can get on with their lives; who boot up their games and scream, "entertain me without my having to lift a finger or get out," will likely not be able understand the appeal of Final Fantasy XIV. However, you're certainly welcome to learn.
Why is it some elitist always picks some game that no one really gets because it's a nonsensical mess and then tries to make liking the game into some kind of accomlishment. it's like food geeks. They pick the most disgusting foul shit on the planet to eat and then go "you have to have a refined pallette to enjoy this". No i don't, if it tastes like shit it tastes like shit.
You paint this game as some epic thing that you have to be a sophisticated gamer to enoy. Ok, so what about this game is so sophistacted and great? That's the one thing missing from your entire post is what makes this game so great that we should like it? I'm seriously curious as i haven't played it enough yet to make up my mind. My initial impression is that this is yet another asian grinder game and there's nothing sophisticated about that, there's tons of grinders out there. The story parts of this game seem cool but i'm guessing once you start leveling those become far and few in between much like LOTRO.
So seriously, please explain what exactly makes this game great? The environments are great and have inspired graphics but the world seems like one big corridor, but after that the gameplay so far seems slow, plodding and grindy. If you have to be some type of gaming aristocrat to like that type of playstyle then i guess i'd prefer to be a heathen. Nowhere in this thread where i have scanned do you lay out why this game is good. So please list the explicit reasons or quite frankly you're just another ignorant fanboy of the game trying to apostate for it
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WoW is established and has years under it's belt. It can afford to be arrogant and ignore criticism. New releases these days don't have that luxury. They'd be stupid to not be paying exceptionally close attention to what's being said about their product because their potential clients can *easily* go elsewhere for their gaming fix. There's just too much competition in MMO land to blow off the criticisms of a game that is on the cusp of going live. Even if the developers choose to ignore it, many gamers won't.
Well I have been playing MMOs since Ultima Online Beta and playing FFXIV since Alpha Test 10 and I have played far more than 10 hours. I've also seen the large changes come about and seen the feedback from other testers.
Everything in this post is my opinion. I do not care if you agree or disagree with it.
The majority of testers do not like the UI because it is needlessly complicated. If you are in an area with many people and you wish to change gear, put in stat points, and change your action skills then it can take a while. If you are in the same area and are trying to sell to an NPC it can take you a while. I was on Lindblum and it took 1 minute for the NPC to open the sell items window. On a less crowded server it took about seconds. On a less crowded server the mouse is much smoother(but not as smooth as if hardware mouse was put in. Another thing a majority of Alpha/Closed Beta testers have been asking for.) It took 2 months for S-E to add in working mouselook.
You can be enjoying yourself and be immersed till the UI breaks it. Which it frequently does. It is very frustrating to be fighting a mob and fighting the UI at the same time. Even controller folks have submitted feedback to S-E that they too have to fight the UI.
This game is a PC game first and a console game second. Yet the Keyboard and Mouse, which are default controls for a PC, are lacking. Full keyboard customization is not in. You cannot bind the camera to the arrow keys like FFXI had it. You cannot change the colors on the chat box like you could in FFXI. The argument that people should just go use a controller is ridiculous. S-E should have keyboard/mouse just as good as controller. That way you bring more people in and it is more successful. The "controller-only" folks tend to be very hostile whenever someone brings up fixing the keyboard/mouse controls. The default PC control crowd doesn't advocate that S-E remove controller support, so why do controller people advocate not fixing the keyboard and mouse? I guess people just don't want the game to succeed.
There is no travel time in the game. You can teleport to any aether crystal you've already been to.
The mobs in combat attack just the same as in FFXI. There is nothing special or bad about the way they attack.
Cities are needlessly large but I expected that and at times enjoy it. It adds to the immersion.
The cutscenes and story are typical S-E, aka engaging and captivating.
Levequests are fun but the limit per 48 hours is a bit silly. S-E did say they are looking into changing it.
Crafting is similar to FFXI, annoying as hell. That is purely my opinion as I despise crafting in any MMO lol. So if you enjoyed the crafting in FFXI you'll enjoy it in FFXIV.
Class switching is nice. Being able to just switch a weapon and boom you are another class is excellent. Be prepared though to create tons of macros for gear/classes just like in FFXI. If you do not make a macro to switch weapons and equip skills then you will need to navigate the horrible menu and equip them. Which after level 20 will take you quite a while to do without a macro.
Lack of an Auction House is another thing testers have pointed out. Instead we have Market Wards that are not searchable. Not to mention, the entrances to these Market Wards are not on the map so enjoy searching for the entrance then enjoy searching for a player run stall that has the item you wish to buy. You cannot search for it.
Once you finish all your levequest and cannot continue the story you will need to either craft or grind. To some that is bad, to me I don't care lol. There is no PVP. One thing I am glad they don't have.
I, personally, believe that S-E should delay the game. Rework the UI, add in hardware mouse, and add in full keyboard customization. I know many FFXI players who are not going to play simply because S-E hasn't really learned from other MMOs, even FFXI.
Even after the hundreds of hours I've put in to testing the UI/Keyboard/Mouse still will frustrate me. No, I will not get a controller but you are welcome to play however you wish. I play PC games with a mouse and keyboard. If I wanted to use a controller I'd go buy a PS3 and play on that.
Some people like the color blue, but the poeple who are truely experienced and can understand the quality of colors would know to appreciate the color red.
People who prefer the color blue just do not get what makes red such a great color and fail to see its qualities.
But there is hope for them blue color lovers, they could learn to understand the qualities of the color red and appreciate it.
Good writeup, Syaoranli, I agree with most of what you wrote there. Finally, here was a good objective post on what's wrong with Final Fantasy XIV that actually had some basis in fact over opinion. The quibbles I could find with it are minor:
There is pretty extensive travel time in the game for many reasons: because the pace of travel seems rather luxuriously slow and you'll need to brave hazards to the crystal to begin with, because eventually you'll run out of the points to teleport unless you ration them, and because there's still a lot of walking after you got to your crystal destination, like walking around town or hunting the fields.
I'm kinda surprised you've been playing the game for hundreds of hours and are "fighting" the GUI. I'm only about 20 hours in and I'm pretty used to it. I'm not using a Gamepad the majority of the time, either, so I'm not sure what you're doing there. Granted, it does lag, both machine and Internet lag, perhaps that's what you're referring to. Also, maybe you're insisting on using the mouse on the menus, which is guarenteed to generate misery: don't do that, seriously, even if they ever get around to implementing a hardware mouse I bet navigating these kinds of embedded menu with mouse (instead of cursor or gamepad) would suck eggs.
Anywho, I, the OP, am totally in agreement that the GUI could be better. I said it on the very first post, where I referred to it as "console-hobbled" and at most the only thing I said contrary to that you can get used to and become reasonably comfortable with the interface even though it's not optimal. This has been my experience, and many others have agreed with this sentiment. That one can become comfortable with the interface does not imply that the Interface cannot be improved. For example, one thing I'd really like is for the interface to remember which abilities are associated with which job so I don't have to manually set them up every time I re-equip my tool.
It's funny, but if you participate in a thread on any subject of minor or greater controversy, it's not so much that you may want to take a side so much as you're shoved there. I acknowledge there are flaws, but apparently you can't point out a connoissour would be willing to overlook these flaws or find them non-flaws (e.g. travel time to justify space) without coming off as arrogant. This ended up attracting a lot of comments from people who exaggerate its flaws, and pointing out these exaggeraitons made it seem as though I was expressing opposition. Express enough opposition to something, no matter how called for it is, and people will draw the conclusion you're no longer even-handed. That put me in fanboy territory regardless of my intent.
I managed to get in finally and have run about.
Graphics - Stunning! No issues on an okish rig after tinkering with the config utility.
Mouse lag - slight for me, but then I have a high DPI mouse
Crashes - none in the time I played
Gameplay / UI - Ok, I can see what everyone is complaining about. However, I have a sneaky feeling the issues I had were not actually the fault of the game. I'm a tad stuck in my ways, I have the attention span of a gnat, and after almost 40 years, my ability to learn and adapt to a new system is shot to bits! It's doubtful I will play this on launch, but not because its a terrible game. I think it looks like a stunning game, rich, different, complex, interesting and immersive. And the female models have short skirts which makes me strangely drawn to it a little more.
If I can get over my newbie learning panic, and buy a controller, and invest the time into a good solid session after fully reading the manual - then, I will probably love it. But after doing what most people do, and jumping straight in and after 20 minutes going "WHAT?!" then I am going to wait until I have some more time and try again.
BTW - Not being an experienced FF player - what on earth were the white floaty blob people all about!?
"When people don't know much about something, they tend to fill in the blanks the way they want them to be filled in. They are almost always disappointed." - Will Wright
Moogles!
Thanks!
"When people don't know much about something, they tend to fill in the blanks the way they want them to be filled in. They are almost always disappointed." - Will Wright
I am not familiar with FF XIV development but I wonder what your statement is based on.
The game UI could not be more suitable to console controls. You do not implement console UI into a PC game.
He probably bases it on the game coming out for the PC before the PS3 (which is dated March 2011).
There's also some previous precedent here in that Final Fantasy XI has a similar interface and has been operating, for years, with quite a high retention value.
Though clearly it was designed to be console-friendly, it starts to become sketchy whether or not you should call an interface a console interface when it's been that way for years on the PC version of the game XIV is suceeding. Not to mention that, considering just about every Final Fantasy game controls with a similar interface, its inclusion may have been a stylistic choice as much as a functional one.
Actually, XIV does add some new things that you'd associate with a PC MMORPG's, such as the inclusion of an action hot bar.
No, it's quite clearly a console game ported to the PC. The previous FF Online was the same, and so was everything else SE have done (that I remember). It also plays very much like a console game, and I expect, once its out for the PS3, it will be quite a hit. Console players are quite used to learning a new set of controls and UI for each game they pickup, whereas PC MMO'ers are used to just the one.
Thats not a negative btw, some of the best games are on consoles.
"When people don't know much about something, they tend to fill in the blanks the way they want them to be filled in. They are almost always disappointed." - Will Wright
This is so true and this is before we even bring green into the picture as well. I mean if you learn the blue and the red and you are capable being a true connoiseur it is only a matter of time until you can appreciate fully the green. Perhaps even the orange and purple if you are so blessed as to be so wonderfully superior to all around you with your great connoiseur abilities. People will likely stand agape or even pass out unable to comprehend the world in the ways you can see it! Alas to be them, the simpletons who cannot see the whole picture, those who cannot hope to perceive the grandiosity that you as a great connoiseur are capable of.
Listen what you are saying: Player should "adapt" to the game. Wrong! Game should adapt to the player.
It is simply a waste of time to answer to all your statements.
Oh really? Well, because you allowed yourself to call all others that have the opinion that the game is not that good that they don't have "taste for fine quality" I am allowed to say that you are a fanboy.
... and you are welcome to not be condescending.
It will be released in three weeks. I'm willing to come back here and repeat everything I've said at that point, because nothing will change in three weeks, obviously.
What will YOU say then? Prediction: Nothing at all. You'll be back in your hole hoping everyone has forgotten about you.
OP: your post sounds similar to the samething mentioned when other games come out, that is, "this game is not for everyone, only those with up-to-date PC's will enjoy it" and my all time favorite "it is not a WoW clone". If one changes a few complaints and the name of the game it sounds the same as Darkfall/AoC/(fill in the blank). So far I have not ran across the popular excuse "its in beta". With a dase of "this game will not hold your hand" I would say that this game is headed along with the fore said mentioned.
What I am hearing is that the game is for those who can afford a high end pc, that like FF and something new, "this game is for gaming connoisseurs". Now thats a new term for me, For me, before I pay for a game that charges close to WoW and put in another $250. upgrading my pc I want to assure that I can use a mouse and keyboard. It is not about "ease of use" its about being a pc gamer...really. If I was to shift to controlers I would save a ton of money playing another platform. Just a thought.
Not exactly true. Blizzard started working on Wow in 1997, changed team in '99 when lead designer and several others quit and released late in 2004. That is 7 1/2 years of development and the basics of the engine was up already '99, of course the game could be run on most computers in late '04.
But all blizzards games have been easy to run on a medium computer and that is actually the right way if you want to maximize the number of players. FFXIV great graphics comes with a cost even if it hopefully makes the game last longer.
From what I could read is that PS3 launch was delayed due technical reasons only, something unintended.
It is the controllers shaping the controls, not the apps.
I guess whole issue is because of cross-platform servers where different controls of client are an issue. There are not many games allowing multiply platforms so technology and examples are few only.
Making the game console friendly and then 'port' it on PC seems logical and easy - it is far easier to use gamepad UI with keyboard and mouse than the other way round. I sill cannot believe they could not do it better, much better.
I guess they did the numbers well and they will certainly get large player base as they did with FF XI but if I wanted to play console games, I would buy a console. Buying a console game for PC does not make much sense to me.
What will YOU say then? Prediction: Nothing at all. You'll be back in your hole hoping everyone has forgotten about you.
Nothing will change except adding 90% more CONTENT. You keep assuming SE does things the same way every other game company does it. You are a sad, sad little man.
My view of this game has changed a "little bit" since my first comments which were none too positive. I am sure fans do not find the patcher issues to be a "problem" but we are "testing" right. Open beta "test" !!!
The patcher is utterly broken and useless without going to work around solutions. They got three weeks to fix it. Since it is based on what appears to be a flawed methodology I doubt the pater will be even usable at release.
As a tester, I try to use the tools providied and in evaluating the product as is the game is busted from the start with this installer/patcher. Gives gamers their first experience and is not a good one.
HOWEVER- I did get to play for several hours with two characters. Graphically, the game is fantastic. A little sluggish so I turned off the dynamic shadows which increased performance greatly. Cut scenes are wonderfully done.
I did start getting use to the UI and felt OK with it after about half an hour. That being said, it is not intuitive, and as a connoisseur of games I do not find it elegant or comfortable to use. It has a steeper learning curve then most games.
Once again, I did take the time to get use to it.
Then, the game offers NO guidance or direction at all in what you need to do other than a tiny (sort of) combat tutorial in between cut scenes. Again, as a connoisseur of MMOs (if that is how you want to label experienced, open minded MMO gamers), a game in this decade should provide you with some guidance to get going and understand the basics of where to go and what to do. It should not require a manual, not these days.
Again though, once I figured it out and finally figured out how to use the cluncky map and got a quest going or two I had some fun wandering around and looking at the awesome landscape.
As an experienced gamer I did eventually enjoy playing the game but not after some highly frustrating moments and not without seeing some fundenmental flaws.
For any business to be truly successful it must expand its audience. For this game, the barrier to entry is high. You must be experienced and willing to "work around" things at this stage to play. It is obvioisly easiest if you have played the previous game.
Thing of the starting experience with this game for someone newer to the genre...It will suck and they will not become long term players, they will probably feel ripped off, and the player base will not expand past what it would be from the other FF titles...assuming some dramatic changes do not happen in the next few weeks.
On that level, and as it stands today, this game is a failure. As an experienced gamer or gamer who played the last FF MMO you can muddle through and find the fun but you should not have too. A game should be easy to start, easy to grasp but deep to play, and have low barrier to entry. As a connoisseur these things should be important to you.
umm so you say in beta 3 we ran into mobs that did
I'd recommend for anyone having issues with keyboard and mouse to immediately switch to an xbox 360 or ps2 controller. I myself use the Xbox 360 controller and this game allows you to full customize where you want every action to be. Everything I need to do in game is easy as pie and I have zero diffculty navigating the menus and such.
There are still a few negatives and one was mentioned earlier by another poster. If you are in a crowd it takes FOREVER to open inventory, buy items, pop the guildleve menu and the like. The other negative is that targeting mobs is still needlessly painful ESPECIALLY when dealing with multiple mobs. There should be an auto-attack feature used when a mob is attacking you....that way you're concentration is immediately directed toward them. Having to cancel out of targeting a dead mob and then going back to regular (non-combat) target only to move to another target, engage them and then attack is ridiculous.
All-in-all though, the game is amazing ESPECIALLY since it offers an experience much different from the terrible cookie-cutter MMO's that have been pouring out lately. The immersion is top notch and the story will suck you in immediately. Dont skip through the cutscenes or the dialogue because you will miss the entire game doing so. Killing mobs is only a part of this game, not the end all be all. If you just want to kill stuff play Gauntlet, Aion or WoW...if you want a true Online ROLE-PLAYING Game, give FFXIV a shot!
Except, besides for the ridiculous controls and the huge wait in doing anything menu related, the game does NOT do anything different than the other cookie cutter WOW clones. Hotbar attacks, zones, grind, no ability to jump or interact with your environment... what exactly is new besides the horrible controls and ridiculously slow interface?
I tend to be critical when people say something like that. The best online roleplaying experience I ever gotten was still NWN and that was still really far from how good things can be.
Lets just say it is less about killing things and have better RPG experience than Gauntlet, Aion or Wow and be quite about that true thing, ok?
I don't think anyone could possibly put it in better terms.
The only thing I dont agree and sort of comes out as wrong is, who are you to say that FF is fine dining in comparison to WoW, your analogy is completely flawed you mention in your own post that ppl compare WoW to fast food because a lot of ppl like it, because a lot of ppl dont like FF does not mean its exquisite and fine dining.
Just because the kebab shop around the corner only gets 1/100th of the customers of the mcdonald's 100 yards away it doesnt make it fine dining and exquisite, it doesnt get customers because of the cockroaches running around and shit food.
And sure they may have kebabs ( player driven economy ) that mcdonald's doesnt offer but all the cockroaches and mice running around really spoil it for me sorry.
Why is it some elitist always picks some game that no one really gets because it's a nonsensical mess and then tries to make liking the game into some kind of accomlishment. it's like food geeks. They pick the most disgusting foul shit on the planet to eat and then go "you have to have a refined pallette to enjoy this". No i don't, if it tastes like shit it tastes like shit.
You paint this game as some epic thing that you have to be a sophisticated gamer to enoy. Ok, so what about this game is so sophistacted and great? That's the one thing missing from your entire post is what makes this game so great that we should like it? I'm seriously curious as i haven't played it enough yet to make up my mind. My initial impression is that this is yet another asian grinder game and there's nothing sophisticated about that, there's tons of grinders out there. The story parts of this game seem cool but i'm guessing once you start leveling those become far and few in between much like LOTRO.
So seriously, please explain what exactly makes this game great? The environments are great and have inspired graphics but the world seems like one big corridor, but after that the gameplay so far seems slow, plodding and grindy. If you have to be some type of gaming aristocrat to like that type of playstyle then i guess i'd prefer to be a heathen. Nowhere in this thread where i have scanned do you lay out why this game is good. So please list the explicit reasons or quite frankly you're just another ignorant fanboy of the game trying to apostate for it