Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
UI/Mouse Lag Speculation
WT5050
Member Posts: 17
So I was sitting here thinking about the UI/Mouse lag today and I've come up with a possible theory as to why it's pretty intensive. Everyone knows it's Open Beta which is a great chance to stress test the servers and what not and find any bugs. I think it's with finding these bugs that the lag is being intensified (other than the mass user stress test of course). With servers, there's the ability to turn on debugging/logging settings to record and inform the admins when something (you specified) is going on. Usually a lot of these are kept off to help increase the networks capabilities and only the major ones are kept on.
Now if one thinks about it, SE needs a way to be informed of every error going on and how often it's happening so it's only logical that they have debugging/logging software running also, which can be a strain on the servers resources. The fact that it's beta mean they probably have all of the possible options on. Which imho added with the stress test, is causing the UI/Mouse lag to be so intensive (since both are software and connected to the servers).
Anyways I'm just an entry level tech who's only been in charge of Navy networks (rather simple really haha) and all this is just speculation since I'm not sure if they are in fact running said operations. Anyways if anyone thinks it's possible let me know cause i'm kind of curious if it is or not.
Oh and please refrain from posting about how horrible the lag is or how people need to get over it. Everyone already knows these arguments and I am trying to get an idea out there while also trying to give a possible answer to the mmorpg community. Thanks in advance!
Comments
Mouse/UI lag was the same in CBT so really has nothing with the number of people playing. Just with piss poor coding.
And the debug MYTH is just that, yes it impacts your game but nowhere near as much as it did 5y ago. debug mode of code really is additional instructions that get calls when major oops happens. they are not actually sending more stuff to the server, it's just that if game crash they will have the ability to see more with a dump of what was happening at the time of crash then actually collecting information about your gameplay and sending it back to them.
Sure the Server side as more debugging/logging going on. That cause server lag. But the mouse and ui thing is a client thing and really, unless it's poorly coded (see first statement). It should not be impacted by their server being in debug mode.
mm possible but also in CBT they were more than likely running the same debugging issues I'm speculating about. I just think that's the major issue causing the lags. Coding is probably an issue as well, though probably just as the amount of people adding into it.
Granted bad coding usually leads to a mass amount of errors versus intensive lag from most my experiences with it. Granted I guess a minor issue in the code would become magnified if mass amounts of people were using it at the same time. But even then it would multiple .... bleh neh i'm not a coding guru so I'm probably wrong so I'll leave it there!! haha
In short i just think it's more than bad coding causing it otherwise imo it would keep getting worse and worse as you played. Thanks for the reply and an outlook i missed with the explanation!
EDIT* It didn't load the rest of your quote when i loaded the page so I figured I'd edit it. While it is true the mouse and ui are indeed part of the users computer, all that does is send the signal to the servers say hey do this for me. The servers then have to take that request and send it back to the user. So if a servers resources become overwhelmed, wouldn't it indeed slow it down?
There is a fix for mouse lag...
Check this:
http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/13698/ffxiv-mouse-lag-fix/
Just make sure to back up the file first.
Heard about that, it changes it from a software side to a hardware side which is what helped give me the idea. Because it takes care of the lag but if you still click on something you get the UI lag. Which leads me to believe they are just really over stressing their servers. If it was bad code, the code they put into the software to enable what that player altered wouldn't be working as well. That's why i'm iffy on them just having horrible code all over.
Well here's my theory. Feel free to test it out.
I wanted to get to the bottom of the mouse lag. If you notice closesly that when the game starts up the lag isn't present at all. Once you are in the world then you start to notice the lag.
My theory for the reason for the lag is this. If you go into your ffxivconfig.exe lcoated in the game directory. Locate the Video Settings. Now here's the thing. If you turn the graphics down to bare minimal ( so the game looks like crap then) you'll notice the menu/mouse lag doesn't occur.
Now in my case I have an ATI 5750 Graphics Card and a 6 Core CPU. I turned everything up to MAXIMUM and turned on the Ambient Occulsion and the Depth of Field (Located under the Graphics Tab). Once i did that I then logged into the game and noticed that my UI/Menu/Mouse lag was so unbearable it was crazy. I also noticed that my CPU was utilizing itself A LOT more than any normal game would. So I went in and left everything on max but turned off Ambient Occlusion and Depth of Field.
Logged back into the game and noticed the lag was gone. I personally think the lag is due to the Hardware limitations from our computers. Note: I have a 6 core CPU and it couldn't handle all the stuff ffxiv was doing in the background. This game is truly a beast of a game.
It's not hardware limitation on our part. There's FPS out there that more CPU/GPU intensive thet FFXIV is. These graphic issue/memory leak they are having that also translate in UI issue is probably the MAIN reason they delayed the PS3 lunch of the game.
In the end it comes back to poor coding, there games taht do more then FFXIV out there that lags 1000th less. SE is not the best PC programmer in the world, hell they having issue coding for PS3 also.
This is not an hardware issue really, even people with beast of machine that are better then a PS3 are having said issue, they can throw oh it's hardware issue all they but until the PS3 version is actually launched and has none of these issue then i'll believe it.
They are basically using the PC game as guinea pig in hope to fix all the issue so when they release the PS3 version it will be smooth
This is one of the mainy reason why i opted to cancel by SE pre-order (that an uther lack of content, but that's not what this post is about). I'll wait 6 month and see at this point really.
To be hoenst the game engine of FFXIV really looks like a modified version of the NIER engine lol. anwyays
@aaradun: I would like to believe it is bad coding, seriously. But I just don't see it from a logical point of view where memory leaks are involved and what not. If it's a leak it would continuously grow and grow until your system couldn't handle it anymore, hence the word "leak". As far I can recall the leaks don't just up and disappear allowing your system to run great at areas. So while I'm not saying you can't be right, I'm just saying I see it highly illogical (in reference to a memory leak) being the issue causing all this lag with the UI/Mouse.
As far as a graphic issue, I've played a lot of high intense graphic games but the key thing to remember about those are it's always a preloaded area where you only venture in a small space. Depending on your settings with FFXIV, you can see massively in the distance and there's always something being updated and refreshed and ran (versus pre-loaded). It makes perfect sense that the game is graphically intensive.
Anyways got off topic a little bit., to make it shorter (since I'm not even looking to talk about the PS3 version at all) I'm just going to say that the PS3 coding has nothing to do with the mouse/ui lag because they are two different system with two different coding mechanics. So even if they got it to work for the PC there's a high chance it won't even work for the PS3, if that was the issue in the first place.
@njacksound ;
I'll try this in the morning (especially since i have the same vid card) but the only flaw in the plan i see is that if you pay attention to the latency icon in the top right you'll see it go from good to worse as you do actions that connect to the server, which is the software asking for permission to do it and what not. (Also helping to point out my theory about the debugging btw). While I find your experience interesting, one thing I'd like to note is I've never really had mouse lag that was horrible. I've only had horrible UI lag (when say i want to open up my items and inventory.) I also run almost every at max except i keep it at 1280 windowed. Since i'm playing on a 1080p TV it keeps it in an actual window for me to alt tab and what not. And my mouse works great and smooth even when i can see a little lag in the game (if i slide it from the game onto my desktop) this leads me to believe that the lag isn't being caused by hardware, at least not a major portion of it.
But like I said I'll try it out and see if my UI lag fixes right up or not, but i'm skeptical on it working. Also as a last note in reference to your 6core CPU, each program has to be programmed to work with that many CPUs to get the full effect from that many CPUs. I run a quad core and haven't had any issues at all with my CPU being strained and i am pretty sure FFXIV was designed to take use of the quad core. Since 6core is rare, I doubt the programming was designed to push yours effectively (with the last two). Always remember sometimes more is not better, which is why dual core was still better for gaming until not too long ago. (hell could still be argued that it is imho)
1) Memory leak does not necessarily have to result in a application collapse.
2) All is 'pre-loaded' regardless.
3) PS3 has everything to do with UI and controls. Mouse & keyboard for PC and PS3 controller are 2 different inputs but they both communicate with the same server. That is why we get this crap UI unsuitable for PC and lag.
Hrdware mouse is not enabled, it is that simple.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Mouse lag is one thing. The more you tax your system the worse it gets. Sompe people are probably trying to play at settings their cards don't support that well. Hence they get a lot of mouse lag.
*******
Now all the other lag, it really is a 3-5 second delay happening with the server/client at all times. Try playing in the same room as someone else and you will see what I mean. My friend had been playing at his house. I invited him over to at my place last night. We had our monitors side by side. If one of us moved our characters it would take up to 5 seconds before the other person noticed the move on his client. We never knew the lag was this bad until we were in the same room with each other. The gameplay is not choppy, so you don't notice it. It never tries to play catch up like in some games.
This is why the UI seems laggy. It's not a buggy UI code. It's a buggy server/client code. Some menu options happen client side, like pulling up the main menu. This happens instantly, but any time you need to request information from the server this is why you see a 3-5 second delay.
This is what makes group play difficult.
I think OP is right. Actually the devs stated that a lot of checks are in place during the whole beta process. Is that all there is to it, is there a faulty code about that, we'll see come release.
From my observations, the UI and mouse themselves are much faster when in non-populated areas. If you're alone with a mob, it's just really fast. However the lag with the server (in the action menu configuration for instance) is still huge, maybe a bit less than in town but not by much.
Now let's go fiction for another (plot) theory.
Check this out: PS3 version is released, game/UI are smooth as hell and lag-free while the PC version is still slow and laggy. Sony goes "say whatever you want, PS3 is more powerful than any PC, /point FFXIV to prove it". Then lots of PS3 are sold. A few drinks later, there goes a big fat check from Sony to SE for a well-done PR orchestra. A year or so later, "normal" improvements are released in a "major" patch for PC, and both versions are on-par, but FF XIV helped the PS3 much more than it helped the PC and Windows Gaming. How's that for a business theory?
j/k of course.. or am I?
But there is a patch that works just fine that enables it.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/13698/ffxiv-mouse-lag-fix/1/
Works perfectly.
I'm just going to answer this in list format since it's easier that way.
1) Memory leak doesn't always result in an application collapse, true. However, the leaks never go away so there would never be areas where you get no amounts of massive lag with the game. The fact that the lag is sporadic negates a memory leak probability with the UI.
2) All is not pre-loaded, only specific things are pre-loaded and the rest is stored on the servers. NPCs, PCs, and some other things (like when what weather patterns are ran and so forth). This is very taxing because it is indeed a very nice graphics looking game and taking away pre-loading of everything can put a lot of strain on a system. All the single-player games have everything pre-loaded on your system and parts are not stored on some server that's in the middle of a stress test.
3) The layout of the controls has everything to do with the PS3 yes. However, the actual issues can't have anything to do with the lag. The PS3 isn't just a computer that uses the same code layout as the one you are using to play. The code has to be changed and altered. The servers we all connect to (PS3s included) don't have an affect on that, because all they do is get a signal saying hey when I click this open this and it sends back the necessary information. Which happens after some processing of finding the information the user is requesting. So the code on the server can be the same, all they need to do is figure out how to code with the PS3s architecture to get it to send that signal.
Unless we get the release date client and server. We are going only as far as speculation as the the limitations on there end and our end.
Which makes me worry about the new batch of issues once both are implemented.
Can anyone tell me how the mouse fix patcher works? Id like to program my own fix if I can. No offense to the author but Im very leary of downloading stuff from strangers.
You've right to be leery, it's plainly against the EULA, I'd advise any testers to stay away from such actions.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
While I'm pretty sure it's safe, all I can give in what I know about it is that he turns like one line of code SE had going from true to false. The patcher just is an easy way to get it out to the community since a lot of people have no idea how to change things like that. He doesn't give too much clarification in how it's done but if you are looking for that line of code I believe he posted which one he changed in his forums.
Sorry I couldn't be more help.
That's kinda what I was thinking in the end. While I'm pretty confident we will see an improvement a week or two after it launches, I wouldn't be surprised if it's still pretty bad at launch. Which again makes it hard to discern the actual problem since we don't have access to the server reports and what not.
There will probably be problems in the beginning unless they have more servers just waiting, or the servers they have now are just dumbed down on hardware for testing to see if their release servers can handle the load. Easy enough to use spare servers from FFXI to test for the type of server hardware you will need or finding out if yours will make the cut. Granted if it is in fact debugging issues putting more strain then necessary on a stressed out system we should see a vast improvement on the UI/Mouse lag at launch. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if SE was planning on releasing the hardware mouse at launch. (Seeing how they already had the code in there).
Thinking about that makes it even more crazy with how many possibilities there are for this lag, other than just a "coding" issues. Neh anyways like the title says, all these posts I've made are just speculation looking to get feedback and throw ideas out to the community.