There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Why do people care about being able to kill easy mobs that cant find a path? All of your arguments supporting terrain exploitation are awful.
First off, most people speak of not being able to attack anything from anywhere is breaking the immersion, how is that breaking the immersion any more then a mob pathing a small line bath and forth while you freely cast spells off.
Second of all, you call terrain exploitation a strategy, I hate to break it to you, but it doesn't take an intelligent person to see that a mob will take an extremely awkward path.
Finally just as another poster said a few pages back, AI is difficult to program, and if you want better AI, then that means something else needs to be sacrificed. AI is programmed to work dynamically on all mobs, you cant physically program AI for every group of mobs that are around different terrain unless you want every game to have the Darkfall 9 year development time.
As a side note, I just want to point out how funny the argument is about what about what happens in real life. Well what if I was casting a spell... Oh wait, I cant cast spells in real life, thats why its called a game.
East Carolina University, Computer Science BS, 2011 -------------------- Current game: DAOC
Games played and quit: L2, PlanetSide, RF Online, GuildWars, SWG, COH/COV, Vanguard, LOTRO, WoW, WW2 Online, FFXI, Auto-Assault, EVE Online, ShadowBane, RYL, Rappelz, Last Chaos, Myst Online, POTBS, EQ2, Warhammer Online, AoC, Aion, Champions Online, Star Trek Online, Allods, Darkfall.
So in the situation where the monster can't reach you, would it be so bad to just LET the player exploit the terrain and kill the monster? In games like WoW, there is hardly any downtime between kills, and fights are hardly risky unless you're careless. So you really aren't gaining much by being able to kill a handful of monsters that are placed next to exploitable terran. In fact, it's probably MUCH less efficient to camp exploitable terrain than it is to just kill monsters normally.
Yes, because it trivializes the content and removes all risk from such content. What would prevent someone 10 levels lower than the mob from running into a situation like that and killing mobs they have no right to be killing solo? It makes it very easy for botting/camping in situations like that, every spot like that would be camped by gold farming bots because the easiest bot is one that doesn't have to worry about dying.
Take a step back for a second and take long hard look at what you are saying. You just told him that using a river as a strategic advantage was "bad".
Now I can see how you can say this in the context of a computer game. But let's take a step back and realize that this tactic is INCREDIBLY important in the history of warfare.
There is a reason that rivers form so many boudnaries for countries. The use of a river exactly how this was done is exactly why.
Now consider the sad state of some MMO worlds. How they are on rails or lack much depth and take a second look at your reaction to this "exploit".
Shouldn't people be shcoked that an MMO world that is meant to immersive is so cheap and shallow? That it can't even capture basic tactics of warfare? Rather than saying that a player is expoiting because everything is designed to be cartoonish crap?
Now that is a bit of hyperbole but you get the point.
Once you develop a server that can handle 3000 players and around 100,000 mobs all computing near perfect AI, for a price cheaper than 15 dollars a month per subscriber, than we can have this discussion.
The reason why shooting a mob across a river is an exploit is not because it gives a strategic advantage, but because the mobs dont know what the best option is, they only have one option and that is to find the fastest path that will not get itself stuck. Needless to say, this is not the best strategy to take once being engaged with a river separating the two parties.
East Carolina University, Computer Science BS, 2011 -------------------- Current game: DAOC
Games played and quit: L2, PlanetSide, RF Online, GuildWars, SWG, COH/COV, Vanguard, LOTRO, WoW, WW2 Online, FFXI, Auto-Assault, EVE Online, ShadowBane, RYL, Rappelz, Last Chaos, Myst Online, POTBS, EQ2, Warhammer Online, AoC, Aion, Champions Online, Star Trek Online, Allods, Darkfall.
One thing about MMORPGs that has annoyed me more than anything else is how the game developer seems to implicitly or explicitly limit a player's strategy to just one or two viable options, specifically with combat. The first time I encountered this was in Everquest (1).
I was killing orcs in Crushbone and I discovered that I could stand one one side of the river and kill orcs on the other side with spells before they could reach me. After killing a few orcs, I was promptly informed that I was exploiting the pathfinding and could be banned. In other words, unless I fought the monster exactly as the game developers intended me to, I was exploting. To me, this is ridiculous.
That's not really a bannable offense anymore. What's bannable these days is if you are killing a mob and the mob can't reach you. Either way, they've deviced summons to solve this issue. The example you brought up probably came about in 1999-2000 when the game first started and they really had no idea how to deal with these issues yet.
Pathing was bad in EQ yes, kinda is still bad today. Exploiting pathing really isn't bad unless you have found a way where the mob can't reach you at all.
Players intentionally expoiting terain to gain an advantage has to stop. If your biggest gripe is this; you should be very happy in the MMO genre and should be playing games. An outdated exploit from a decade old game seems a bit silly to me. AI has a way to deal with this now, it is called evade or what is more commonly known as "run away....run away." AI did not retreat, they made the AI smarter now, it retreats and you are still unhappy.
I guess you want the AI to stand there where you use the terrain to be unhittable and you kill them in easy mode.
“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”
Why do people care about being able to kill easy mobs that cant find a path?
The argument is more that arbitrary rules are created to compensate for flawed design, creating counter intuitive restrictions. Several posters here are doing exactly what is being complained about. They are writing it off as an AI limitation rather that looking at design options - be they mechanical or environmental - that would prevent the need for rules that deem otherwise reasonable and logical behavior to be 'an exploit.'
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Why do people care about being able to kill easy mobs that cant find a path?
The argument is more that arbitrary rules are created to compensate for flawed design, creating counter intuitive restrictions. Several posters here are doing exactly what is being complained about. They are writing it off as an AI limitation rather that looking at design options - be they mechanical or environmental - that would prevent the need for rules that deem otherwise reasonable and logical behavior to be 'an exploit.'
That was actually a rhetorical question, I later went on my post to disprove all of the major arguments in favor of terrain exploitation.
East Carolina University, Computer Science BS, 2011 -------------------- Current game: DAOC
Games played and quit: L2, PlanetSide, RF Online, GuildWars, SWG, COH/COV, Vanguard, LOTRO, WoW, WW2 Online, FFXI, Auto-Assault, EVE Online, ShadowBane, RYL, Rappelz, Last Chaos, Myst Online, POTBS, EQ2, Warhammer Online, AoC, Aion, Champions Online, Star Trek Online, Allods, Darkfall.
Your first one did indeed sound like an exploit of the pathfinding
Players think they are crafted when they figure out ways to cheat the AI, that isn't strategy it is limited code. If the AI were to be made truly intelligent then the game would crash due to all of the processing overload of all of those creatures running millions of computations. So MMO AI is left fairly basic to keep things running smoothly.
Yeah, that is the real reason MMO have so lousy AIs. But funny enough have Guildwars pretty smart AI and it works fine. Sure, GW is instanced but to be honest, so is most of the MMO action today.
And there are FPS games you can be pretty many players in who still uses a good AI. No, everything is about making the AI as simple as possible because it saves money. That is the reason most MMOs use the holy triad too, it also saves a lot of programming which would add to the cost of the game otherwise.
I can't wait for GW2 in this aspect, just the fact that there is no holy triad forces the devs to use a good AI. And that is well possible, but it demands good code and more work. Most MMO designers are not the least interested to make that kind of changes, they rather add pretty fluff instead and as long as everyone else has the same crappy AI you don't have to upgrade it anyways.
The AI is more or less the same as it was in Meridian 59 which I played on a 56 Kb modem. If you truly don't believe a MMO can have a better AI than that you just havn't thought about it. The net is a lot faster and the computers a lot better including the servers. Most MMOs today have limited players even in open zones and opens up an instance whenever a certain number enters and even the ones that doesn't have still mostly instances which at least could have a better AI, as GW and almost every single or group player game have proven for the last 10 years.
That doesn't mean it is right to exploit issues in the game, it just means it is sad that those things are in there from the start. The OP has indeed right that MMOs are very inflexible in many ways. The devs don't want you to think and quests can only be solved in one way.
I guess you want the AI to stand there where you use the terrain to be unhittable and you kill them in easy mode.
You mean like in PvP and real life?
I have no problem with Orcs running away, pulling up a bow themselves or even using a trap like rolling a rock down on the pesky player below. Heck, have them call a wizard or whatever.
But using terrain to your advantage is the first rule of combat and Sunzu wrote about that 2500 years ago. In fact should the mobs try to do the same instead against us players. It should be included in the game instead of made impossible.
There are several alternatives to just stand like an idiot and die.
I guess you want the AI to stand there where you use the terrain to be unhittable and you kill them in easy mode.
You mean like in PvP and real life?
I have no problem with Orcs running away, pulling up a bow themselves or even using a trap like rolling a rock down on the pesky player below. Heck, have them call a wizard or whatever.
But using terrain to your advantage is the first rule of combat and Sunzu wrote about that 2500 years ago. In fact should the mobs try to do the same instead against us players. It should be included in the game instead of made impossible.
There are several alternatives to just stand like an idiot and die.
They have an alternative which you did not quote, they evade and run away. It has been solved. First try and read all of what people write or do not quote them.
Second, the items in red help you out of your real life combat issues.
IT IS A FREAKING GAME.......IT IS NOT REAL LIFE AND IS NOT MEANT TO SIMULATE REAL LIFE. GO OUTSIDE IF YOU WANT REALITY. IF YOU WANT REAL COMBAT THERE ARE WARS GOING ON; PICK A SIDE AND PUT YOUR SKILLS TO THE TEST.
People who want reality in fantasy games are very silly.
“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”
They have an alternative which you did not quote, they evade and run away. It has been solved. First try and read all of what people write or do not quote them.
Second, the items in red help you out of your real life combat issues.
IT IS A FREAKING GAME.......IT IS NOT REAL LIFE AND IS NOT MEANT TO SIMULATE REAL LIFE. GO OUTSIDE IF YOU WANT REALITY. IF YOU WANT REAL COMBAT THERE ARE WARS GOING ON; PICK A SIDE AND PUT YOUR SKILLS TO THE TEST.
People who want reality in fantasy games are very silly.
There is a large difference between dodging and being impossible to hit. That is not evading at all and most games today uses it. Especially Wow.
And just because it is a game doesn't mean that you shouldn't be able to use tactics. There is a big difference between some ind of logic and reality. A fantasy game should reflect the reality we read about in fantasy books, not the real world of course but I never read a book where someone on higher ground were immune to arrows.
Do you seriously think it is silly to use terrain to your advantage, something that is including in every FPS game and RTS game out there?
It is PVE we are talking about here, either way it is going to be easy. I wouldn't worry about needing to come up with strategies to exploit the terrain.
East Carolina University, Computer Science BS, 2011 -------------------- Current game: DAOC
Games played and quit: L2, PlanetSide, RF Online, GuildWars, SWG, COH/COV, Vanguard, LOTRO, WoW, WW2 Online, FFXI, Auto-Assault, EVE Online, ShadowBane, RYL, Rappelz, Last Chaos, Myst Online, POTBS, EQ2, Warhammer Online, AoC, Aion, Champions Online, Star Trek Online, Allods, Darkfall.
They have an alternative which you did not quote, they evade and run away. It has been solved. First try and read all of what people write or do not quote them.
Second, the items in red help you out of your real life combat issues.
IT IS A FREAKING GAME.......IT IS NOT REAL LIFE AND IS NOT MEANT TO SIMULATE REAL LIFE. GO OUTSIDE IF YOU WANT REALITY. IF YOU WANT REAL COMBAT THERE ARE WARS GOING ON; PICK A SIDE AND PUT YOUR SKILLS TO THE TEST.
People who want reality in fantasy games are very silly.
There is a large difference between dodging and being impossible to hit. That is not evading at all and most games today uses it. Especially Wow.
And just because it is a game doesn't mean that you shouldn't be able to use tactics. There is a big difference between some ind of logic and reality. A fantasy game should reflect the reality we read about in fantasy books, not the real world of course but I never read a book where someone on higher ground were immune to arrows.
Do you seriously think it is silly to use terrain to your advantage, something that is including in every FPS game and RTS game out there?
Cool story dude.
Go play FPS and RTS if you cannot conform to the rules set fourth by the developers of the genre.
You are asking for something that is not possible and you cannot except that it is not a resonable request; seems straight foolish to me. Why bang your head against the wall. There are limits to processing power.
“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”
They have an alternative which you did not quote, they evade and run away. It has been solved. First try and read all of what people write or do not quote them.
Second, the items in red help you out of your real life combat issues.
IT IS A FREAKING GAME.......IT IS NOT REAL LIFE AND IS NOT MEANT TO SIMULATE REAL LIFE. GO OUTSIDE IF YOU WANT REALITY. IF YOU WANT REAL COMBAT THERE ARE WARS GOING ON; PICK A SIDE AND PUT YOUR SKILLS TO THE TEST.
People who want reality in fantasy games are very silly.
There is a large difference between dodging and being impossible to hit. That is not evading at all and most games today uses it. Especially Wow.
And just because it is a game doesn't mean that you shouldn't be able to use tactics. There is a big difference between some ind of logic and reality. A fantasy game should reflect the reality we read about in fantasy books, not the real world of course but I never read a book where someone on higher ground were immune to arrows.
Do you seriously think it is silly to use terrain to your advantage, something that is including in every FPS game and RTS game out there?
Cool story dude.
Go play FPS and RTS if you cannot conform to the rules set fourth by the developers of the genre.
You are asking for something that is not possible and you cannot except that it is not a resonable request; seems straight foolish to me. Why bang your head against the wall. There are limits to processing power.
Actually it is possible and I too would rather play more realistic games that allow terrain tactics. Ever play AC? Darkfall?
NEWS FLASH!"A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished!https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
It is PVE we are talking about here, either way it is going to be easy. I wouldn't worry about needing to come up with strategies to exploit the terrain.
Well, yeah. But that is because the AI is so dumb, you know everything about your enemy before attacking it (unless you are a noob or entering a new zone) and the the encounter probably is stacked so the mob more or less can't win.
The AI have always been dumb but PvE were a lot harder in the old days. I dont think players are dumber now so the question is why.
You should be forced to think in combat (no matter terrain or not). You have to think in a RTS game, even if you are playing a computer. And you need to think in a FPS game too. So why do you in most non raids just have to push a few buttons in the same order you always push them in MMOs?
Actually it is possible and I too would rather play more realistic games that allow terrain tactics. Ever play AC? Darkfall?
Darkfall has good AI? From the short experience that I had with the game, it seemed just like any other game.
One of the first mobs that I fought was way more powerful than myself and took me 15 minutes to kill it, but the insane strategy that I had to use to kill it was to hide behind a tree and continuously snap shoot at it while it stayed in one spot trying to attack me through a tree.
BTW, that was sarcasm, that was a very moronic strategy that any competent AI would have beaten.
East Carolina University, Computer Science BS, 2011 -------------------- Current game: DAOC
Games played and quit: L2, PlanetSide, RF Online, GuildWars, SWG, COH/COV, Vanguard, LOTRO, WoW, WW2 Online, FFXI, Auto-Assault, EVE Online, ShadowBane, RYL, Rappelz, Last Chaos, Myst Online, POTBS, EQ2, Warhammer Online, AoC, Aion, Champions Online, Star Trek Online, Allods, Darkfall.
Actually it is possible and I too would rather play more realistic games that allow terrain tactics. Ever play AC? Darkfall?
Darkfall has good AI? From the short experience that I had with the game, it seemed just like any other game.
One of the first mobs that I fought was way more powerful than myself and took me 15 minutes to kill it, but the insane strategy that I had to use to kill it was to hide behind a tree and continuously snap shoot at it while it stayed in one spot trying to attack me through a tree.
You see, that is using good tactics, you used the terrain to your advantage...........
Such is life. Different strokes for different folks.
“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”
Go play FPS and RTS if you cannot conform to the rules set fourth by the developers of the genre.
You are asking for something that is not possible and you cannot except that it is not a resonable request; seems straight foolish to me. Why bang your head against the wall. There are limits to processing power.
What do you mean isn't possible? If you can make it in any other genre it is possible in MMOs too. Just because a game is massive doesn't mean that you have to dumb down everything.
MMOs have had similar things before, it is just that few bothers since they prefer to work on the graphics instead and re use the same stuff since EQ.
If games like Asherons call could have a better AI than Aion and other modern games, how can that be possible then and not now?
And if we are just happy with what we got, is there even any need to make a new game or should we just continue play EQ and Wow for the next 20 years?
MMO combat needs improving. Several upcoming game including Guildwars 2 and World of darkness online will have better AIs, I don't think that is an unreasonable request.
Your first one did indeed sound like an exploit of the pathfinding.
Players think they are crafted when they figure out ways to cheat the AI, that isn't strategy it is limited code. If the AI were to be made truly intelligent then the game would crash due to all of the processing overload of all of those creatures running millions of computations. So MMO AI is left fairly basic to keep things running smoothly.
It isn't a feat to figure out ways to overcome this simply AI, it is exploiting it.
Generally anytime I hear a player say "The devs are forcing me to play their way" they are almost always exploiting or cheating something.
Games have rules. Don't play games if you don't like rules.
Dont attack the poster, dont attack the poster /deep breath
The first example he gave sounded like he had enough range to kill the monsters before they got to him. He was using in game mechanics to kill the monsters. And why does it matter anyways? Its not like he could do that a secret number of times, hit a button code and DING MAX LEVEL. I mean seriously, in reality he might of done that for one level or less?
I dont consider what he did cheating the UI. And its CHEATING not Cheated. I hate to bring this up, but lets say in real life, I have a bow and arrow and someone is up on a cliff just far enough where its not safe for them to jump but I can hit them. Would my arrow automatically miss? Would I hear an audible cry of IMMUNE? Was I cheating real life?
Generally anytime I hear a player respond in a post and side so blindly with the devs they either are a dev or are a fanbois.
Games have rules, that are prefixed. Unless the rules that are broken are done so through hacks or give some ridiculous advantage---gold duping etc, then I see no problem with it. It is the game companys responsibility to fix it. They have the manpower and its not like they are doing it for free.
Ok, lets make this a little easier for you to understand.
If you shot an arrow at someone in real life, they would do many different things. Like run, hide, grab an object to block it with, find something to throw back at you. They wouldn't just stand there letting you continue to beat on them because they can't get down the cliff to you.
A games AI, ( you complain about him saying cheated instead of cheating and you called it cheating the UI lawls ) Is just that...Artificial Intelligence. It does not think like a human being. It thinks the way the developers program them to think. The developers do not have enough time on their hands to develop an AI that can realistically think up on the spot an equal reaction to your action. Can it be done? Im sure it can be done. Do they want to do it? No. The more they fiddle with X mob that dies Y times and spawns in Z seconds, they sacrifice devoting their time to more crucial aspects of the game. Like playability, end game, item development, character development and the list goes on.
So stop thinking of a games design as bad because you seem to think AI are real life. And if you really do think AI can react like real life, then you need to get out of your fantasy world.
"Games have rules, that are prefixed. Unless the rules that are broken are done so through hacks or give some ridiculous advantage---gold duping etc, then I see no problem with it. It is the game companys responsibility to fix it. They have the manpower and its not like they are doing it for free."
The game company did fix it. They made the mob immune to your barrage when firing at it within that mobs pathing restrictions. Nuff said.
I dont see why people are complaining about not being able to attack mobs in terrain exploits, but completely avoid the fact that mobs attacking AI is still leagues behind that. I say its way more of an immersion breaker that full camps of mobs allow players to run through their camp as long as they stay out of agro range. Or will be looking directly at a player while they are aiming their bow or casting a spell right at its face. That is the real issue here.
East Carolina University, Computer Science BS, 2011 -------------------- Current game: DAOC
Games played and quit: L2, PlanetSide, RF Online, GuildWars, SWG, COH/COV, Vanguard, LOTRO, WoW, WW2 Online, FFXI, Auto-Assault, EVE Online, ShadowBane, RYL, Rappelz, Last Chaos, Myst Online, POTBS, EQ2, Warhammer Online, AoC, Aion, Champions Online, Star Trek Online, Allods, Darkfall.
It is pretty ridiculous. If the developers really don't want you to fire at mobs across the river, all they have to do is move the mobs over a couple of feet so they're out of range. Problem solved. Players should be rewarded for finding bugs and being creative, not punished because the developers weren't smart enough to fix the problem in the first place.
I don't know if it would actually be fair in my opinion. If I shoot a monster while on top of a cliff, it seems as a way to get past strong monsters easily. One such example is in LaTale, where ice wizards/ice sorcerers/Bards could use a spell that attacks vertically, hitting monsters that are above the player.
However, on the flip side. It should be included in dungeon style games as another version. Such as if there is a torch and a barely visible trail of liquid, we could take the torch and light the trail to set half of the room on fire, having the enemies on one half while our meleers engage them. Our casters/healers could heal from the oppisate end of the fire (Though it should give a drawback, such as one monster having a ranged weapon that catches on fire and shoots it at the healer.)
If you want less limitations, the flip side is the game would need less limitations. Instead of you being able to "pull" one or two mobs (a totally artificial construct) , all 5 of them as well as 20 more in hearing or seeing distance would all come and pulvarize you.
You make a concession (not exploiting pathing) and the game makes a concession (allowing you to fight manageable numbers of opponents).
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Comments
Well said, Gestalt.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Why do people care about being able to kill easy mobs that cant find a path? All of your arguments supporting terrain exploitation are awful.
First off, most people speak of not being able to attack anything from anywhere is breaking the immersion, how is that breaking the immersion any more then a mob pathing a small line bath and forth while you freely cast spells off.
Second of all, you call terrain exploitation a strategy, I hate to break it to you, but it doesn't take an intelligent person to see that a mob will take an extremely awkward path.
Finally just as another poster said a few pages back, AI is difficult to program, and if you want better AI, then that means something else needs to be sacrificed. AI is programmed to work dynamically on all mobs, you cant physically program AI for every group of mobs that are around different terrain unless you want every game to have the Darkfall 9 year development time.
As a side note, I just want to point out how funny the argument is about what about what happens in real life. Well what if I was casting a spell... Oh wait, I cant cast spells in real life, thats why its called a game.
East Carolina University, Computer Science BS, 2011
--------------------
Current game: DAOC
Games played and quit: L2, PlanetSide, RF Online, GuildWars, SWG, COH/COV, Vanguard, LOTRO, WoW, WW2 Online, FFXI, Auto-Assault, EVE Online, ShadowBane, RYL, Rappelz, Last Chaos, Myst Online, POTBS, EQ2, Warhammer Online, AoC, Aion, Champions Online, Star Trek Online, Allods, Darkfall.
Waiting on: Earthrise
Names: Citio, Goldie, Sportacus
Yes, because it trivializes the content and removes all risk from such content. What would prevent someone 10 levels lower than the mob from running into a situation like that and killing mobs they have no right to be killing solo? It makes it very easy for botting/camping in situations like that, every spot like that would be camped by gold farming bots because the easiest bot is one that doesn't have to worry about dying.
Once you develop a server that can handle 3000 players and around 100,000 mobs all computing near perfect AI, for a price cheaper than 15 dollars a month per subscriber, than we can have this discussion.
The reason why shooting a mob across a river is an exploit is not because it gives a strategic advantage, but because the mobs dont know what the best option is, they only have one option and that is to find the fastest path that will not get itself stuck. Needless to say, this is not the best strategy to take once being engaged with a river separating the two parties.
East Carolina University, Computer Science BS, 2011
--------------------
Current game: DAOC
Games played and quit: L2, PlanetSide, RF Online, GuildWars, SWG, COH/COV, Vanguard, LOTRO, WoW, WW2 Online, FFXI, Auto-Assault, EVE Online, ShadowBane, RYL, Rappelz, Last Chaos, Myst Online, POTBS, EQ2, Warhammer Online, AoC, Aion, Champions Online, Star Trek Online, Allods, Darkfall.
Waiting on: Earthrise
Names: Citio, Goldie, Sportacus
That's not really a bannable offense anymore. What's bannable these days is if you are killing a mob and the mob can't reach you. Either way, they've deviced summons to solve this issue. The example you brought up probably came about in 1999-2000 when the game first started and they really had no idea how to deal with these issues yet.
Pathing was bad in EQ yes, kinda is still bad today. Exploiting pathing really isn't bad unless you have found a way where the mob can't reach you at all.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
Players intentionally expoiting terain to gain an advantage has to stop. If your biggest gripe is this; you should be very happy in the MMO genre and should be playing games. An outdated exploit from a decade old game seems a bit silly to me. AI has a way to deal with this now, it is called evade or what is more commonly known as "run away....run away." AI did not retreat, they made the AI smarter now, it retreats and you are still unhappy.
I guess you want the AI to stand there where you use the terrain to be unhittable and you kill them in easy mode.
--John Ruskin
The argument is more that arbitrary rules are created to compensate for flawed design, creating counter intuitive restrictions. Several posters here are doing exactly what is being complained about. They are writing it off as an AI limitation rather that looking at design options - be they mechanical or environmental - that would prevent the need for rules that deem otherwise reasonable and logical behavior to be 'an exploit.'
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
That was actually a rhetorical question, I later went on my post to disprove all of the major arguments in favor of terrain exploitation.
East Carolina University, Computer Science BS, 2011
--------------------
Current game: DAOC
Games played and quit: L2, PlanetSide, RF Online, GuildWars, SWG, COH/COV, Vanguard, LOTRO, WoW, WW2 Online, FFXI, Auto-Assault, EVE Online, ShadowBane, RYL, Rappelz, Last Chaos, Myst Online, POTBS, EQ2, Warhammer Online, AoC, Aion, Champions Online, Star Trek Online, Allods, Darkfall.
Waiting on: Earthrise
Names: Citio, Goldie, Sportacus
Yeah, that is the real reason MMO have so lousy AIs. But funny enough have Guildwars pretty smart AI and it works fine. Sure, GW is instanced but to be honest, so is most of the MMO action today.
And there are FPS games you can be pretty many players in who still uses a good AI. No, everything is about making the AI as simple as possible because it saves money. That is the reason most MMOs use the holy triad too, it also saves a lot of programming which would add to the cost of the game otherwise.
I can't wait for GW2 in this aspect, just the fact that there is no holy triad forces the devs to use a good AI. And that is well possible, but it demands good code and more work. Most MMO designers are not the least interested to make that kind of changes, they rather add pretty fluff instead and as long as everyone else has the same crappy AI you don't have to upgrade it anyways.
The AI is more or less the same as it was in Meridian 59 which I played on a 56 Kb modem. If you truly don't believe a MMO can have a better AI than that you just havn't thought about it. The net is a lot faster and the computers a lot better including the servers. Most MMOs today have limited players even in open zones and opens up an instance whenever a certain number enters and even the ones that doesn't have still mostly instances which at least could have a better AI, as GW and almost every single or group player game have proven for the last 10 years.
That doesn't mean it is right to exploit issues in the game, it just means it is sad that those things are in there from the start. The OP has indeed right that MMOs are very inflexible in many ways. The devs don't want you to think and quests can only be solved in one way.
You mean like in PvP and real life?
I have no problem with Orcs running away, pulling up a bow themselves or even using a trap like rolling a rock down on the pesky player below. Heck, have them call a wizard or whatever.
But using terrain to your advantage is the first rule of combat and Sunzu wrote about that 2500 years ago. In fact should the mobs try to do the same instead against us players. It should be included in the game instead of made impossible.
There are several alternatives to just stand like an idiot and die.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/Cloudsol/
They have an alternative which you did not quote, they evade and run away. It has been solved. First try and read all of what people write or do not quote them.
Second, the items in red help you out of your real life combat issues.
IT IS A FREAKING GAME.......IT IS NOT REAL LIFE AND IS NOT MEANT TO SIMULATE REAL LIFE. GO OUTSIDE IF YOU WANT REALITY. IF YOU WANT REAL COMBAT THERE ARE WARS GOING ON; PICK A SIDE AND PUT YOUR SKILLS TO THE TEST.
People who want reality in fantasy games are very silly.
--John Ruskin
There is a large difference between dodging and being impossible to hit. That is not evading at all and most games today uses it. Especially Wow.
And just because it is a game doesn't mean that you shouldn't be able to use tactics. There is a big difference between some ind of logic and reality. A fantasy game should reflect the reality we read about in fantasy books, not the real world of course but I never read a book where someone on higher ground were immune to arrows.
Do you seriously think it is silly to use terrain to your advantage, something that is including in every FPS game and RTS game out there?
It is PVE we are talking about here, either way it is going to be easy. I wouldn't worry about needing to come up with strategies to exploit the terrain.
East Carolina University, Computer Science BS, 2011
--------------------
Current game: DAOC
Games played and quit: L2, PlanetSide, RF Online, GuildWars, SWG, COH/COV, Vanguard, LOTRO, WoW, WW2 Online, FFXI, Auto-Assault, EVE Online, ShadowBane, RYL, Rappelz, Last Chaos, Myst Online, POTBS, EQ2, Warhammer Online, AoC, Aion, Champions Online, Star Trek Online, Allods, Darkfall.
Waiting on: Earthrise
Names: Citio, Goldie, Sportacus
Cool story dude.
Go play FPS and RTS if you cannot conform to the rules set fourth by the developers of the genre.
You are asking for something that is not possible and you cannot except that it is not a resonable request; seems straight foolish to me. Why bang your head against the wall. There are limits to processing power.
--John Ruskin
Actually it is possible and I too would rather play more realistic games that allow terrain tactics. Ever play AC? Darkfall?
NEWS FLASH! "A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/ Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished! https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/ Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
Well, yeah. But that is because the AI is so dumb, you know everything about your enemy before attacking it (unless you are a noob or entering a new zone) and the the encounter probably is stacked so the mob more or less can't win.
The AI have always been dumb but PvE were a lot harder in the old days. I dont think players are dumber now so the question is why.
You should be forced to think in combat (no matter terrain or not). You have to think in a RTS game, even if you are playing a computer. And you need to think in a FPS game too. So why do you in most non raids just have to push a few buttons in the same order you always push them in MMOs?
Darkfall has good AI? From the short experience that I had with the game, it seemed just like any other game.
One of the first mobs that I fought was way more powerful than myself and took me 15 minutes to kill it, but the insane strategy that I had to use to kill it was to hide behind a tree and continuously snap shoot at it while it stayed in one spot trying to attack me through a tree.
BTW, that was sarcasm, that was a very moronic strategy that any competent AI would have beaten.
East Carolina University, Computer Science BS, 2011
--------------------
Current game: DAOC
Games played and quit: L2, PlanetSide, RF Online, GuildWars, SWG, COH/COV, Vanguard, LOTRO, WoW, WW2 Online, FFXI, Auto-Assault, EVE Online, ShadowBane, RYL, Rappelz, Last Chaos, Myst Online, POTBS, EQ2, Warhammer Online, AoC, Aion, Champions Online, Star Trek Online, Allods, Darkfall.
Waiting on: Earthrise
Names: Citio, Goldie, Sportacus
You see, that is using good tactics, you used the terrain to your advantage...........
Such is life. Different strokes for different folks.
--John Ruskin
What do you mean isn't possible? If you can make it in any other genre it is possible in MMOs too. Just because a game is massive doesn't mean that you have to dumb down everything.
MMOs have had similar things before, it is just that few bothers since they prefer to work on the graphics instead and re use the same stuff since EQ.
If games like Asherons call could have a better AI than Aion and other modern games, how can that be possible then and not now?
And if we are just happy with what we got, is there even any need to make a new game or should we just continue play EQ and Wow for the next 20 years?
MMO combat needs improving. Several upcoming game including Guildwars 2 and World of darkness online will have better AIs, I don't think that is an unreasonable request.
Ok, lets make this a little easier for you to understand.
If you shot an arrow at someone in real life, they would do many different things. Like run, hide, grab an object to block it with, find something to throw back at you. They wouldn't just stand there letting you continue to beat on them because they can't get down the cliff to you.
A games AI, ( you complain about him saying cheated instead of cheating and you called it cheating the UI lawls ) Is just that...Artificial Intelligence. It does not think like a human being. It thinks the way the developers program them to think. The developers do not have enough time on their hands to develop an AI that can realistically think up on the spot an equal reaction to your action. Can it be done? Im sure it can be done. Do they want to do it? No. The more they fiddle with X mob that dies Y times and spawns in Z seconds, they sacrifice devoting their time to more crucial aspects of the game. Like playability, end game, item development, character development and the list goes on.
So stop thinking of a games design as bad because you seem to think AI are real life. And if you really do think AI can react like real life, then you need to get out of your fantasy world.
"Games have rules, that are prefixed. Unless the rules that are broken are done so through hacks or give some ridiculous advantage---gold duping etc, then I see no problem with it. It is the game companys responsibility to fix it. They have the manpower and its not like they are doing it for free."
The game company did fix it. They made the mob immune to your barrage when firing at it within that mobs pathing restrictions. Nuff said.
I dont see why people are complaining about not being able to attack mobs in terrain exploits, but completely avoid the fact that mobs attacking AI is still leagues behind that. I say its way more of an immersion breaker that full camps of mobs allow players to run through their camp as long as they stay out of agro range. Or will be looking directly at a player while they are aiming their bow or casting a spell right at its face. That is the real issue here.
East Carolina University, Computer Science BS, 2011
--------------------
Current game: DAOC
Games played and quit: L2, PlanetSide, RF Online, GuildWars, SWG, COH/COV, Vanguard, LOTRO, WoW, WW2 Online, FFXI, Auto-Assault, EVE Online, ShadowBane, RYL, Rappelz, Last Chaos, Myst Online, POTBS, EQ2, Warhammer Online, AoC, Aion, Champions Online, Star Trek Online, Allods, Darkfall.
Waiting on: Earthrise
Names: Citio, Goldie, Sportacus
It is pretty ridiculous. If the developers really don't want you to fire at mobs across the river, all they have to do is move the mobs over a couple of feet so they're out of range. Problem solved. Players should be rewarded for finding bugs and being creative, not punished because the developers weren't smart enough to fix the problem in the first place.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I don't know if it would actually be fair in my opinion. If I shoot a monster while on top of a cliff, it seems as a way to get past strong monsters easily. One such example is in LaTale, where ice wizards/ice sorcerers/Bards could use a spell that attacks vertically, hitting monsters that are above the player.
However, on the flip side. It should be included in dungeon style games as another version. Such as if there is a torch and a barely visible trail of liquid, we could take the torch and light the trail to set half of the room on fire, having the enemies on one half while our meleers engage them. Our casters/healers could heal from the oppisate end of the fire (Though it should give a drawback, such as one monster having a ranged weapon that catches on fire and shoots it at the healer.)
If you want less limitations, the flip side is the game would need less limitations. Instead of you being able to "pull" one or two mobs (a totally artificial construct) , all 5 of them as well as 20 more in hearing or seeing distance would all come and pulvarize you.
You make a concession (not exploiting pathing) and the game makes a concession (allowing you to fight manageable numbers of opponents).
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests