I get the impression that you feel Buffs are used as a pseudo PvP damage reduction modifier? I suppose in a way they are, but they also increase damage done and many other offensive attributes so they are certainly not doing anything to "rebalance the spike damage". This is where tactics come in, as soon as you see an Officer activate Superior Firepower, which will allow a devastating volley of area attacks which can wipe a group, have your medic but him in stasis preventing him from taking any action until Superior Firepower has gone.
I really like the buff system, for me it's a further layer of character customisation that allows you more flexibility in designing your toon to suit your gameplay style. For example, you can make your Smuggler even more of a glass cannon with crazy damage or make him really defensive. Each profession can be further tailored as you see fit using the buff package of your choice, layering in top of your expertise and equipment choices.
Overall PvP combat in SWG is the most balanced that I have ever played it with all combat professions bringing meaningful contributions to a group.
Area of effect attacks from players don't create substantial lag that I know of, I remember a time when they did but the Devs fixed it. We can have mass PvP battles and not see any lag unless there are NPCs involved, a ton of NPCs in combat create loads of latency but PvP in itself doesn't tend to. NPCs getting in the way of PvP in places like Restuss is something that is being discussed on the GCW forum currently, but otherwise we have Battlefields for guaranteed lag free PvP.
Using a buff house is a choice, you can run about to different professions if you prefer, or in my case I do that with some of my alts that aren't guilded and dont have access to buff houses. On those I tend to get meds and ent buffs from Eisley then spam Officers a tell on the player search tool asking for some tactical stims, this whole process takes about five minutes but then I'm set for four hours or so.
On my main PvP toons I'll log in to the buff house and be ready to go as fast as an ent can buff me.
I get the impression that you feel Buffs are used as a pseudo PvP damage reduction modifier? I suppose in a way they are, but they also increase damage done and many other offensive attributes so they are certainly not doing anything to "rebalance the spike damage". This is where tactics come in, as soon as you see an Officer activate Superior Firepower, which will allow a devastating volley of area attacks which can wipe a group, have your medic but him in stasis preventing him from taking any action until Superior Firepower has gone.
Overall PvP combat in SWG is the most balanced that I have ever played it with all combat professions bringing meaningful contributions to a group.
AoEs don't "create lag", we can have mass PvP battles and not see any lag unless there are NPCs involved, a ton of NPCs in combat create loads of latency but PvP in itself doesn't tend to. NPCs getting in the way of PvP in places like Restuss is something that is being discussed on the GCW forum currently, but otherwise we have Battlefields for guaranteed lag free PvP.
Using a buff house is a choice, you can run about to different professions if you prefer, or in my case I do that with some of my alts that aren't guilded and dont have access to buff houses. On those I tend to get meds and ent buffs from Eisley then spam Officers a tell on the player search tool asking for some tactical stims, this whole process takes about five minutes but then I'm set for four hours or so.
On my main PvP toons I'll log in to the buff house and be ready to go as fast as an ent can buff me.
Indeed they are used as a pseudo damage reduction modifier, as well as to increase the damage of those profs that have limited spike output. Please don't talk to me about tactics (spotting and stopping an officer using SFP isn't exactly rocket science), I am well aware of what was required in that game to succeed. It's because I have played that game to a high level in pvp and that I have played other mmos to a decent level that I feel I am able to quantify just how good/bad the combat (especially the pvp combat) is in SWG. More importantly those people I have played with or against in terms of major pvp guilds have either bailed on the game or only pop back on the odd occassion due to the very fact that it's crap for pvp.
AOES don't create lag? The antiquated servers running constant aoe checks doesnt help server load. NPCS in Restuss are indeed a pain and do increase lag, but they where talking about that since its release, nothings changed, nothing will. BF's are great if there is a healthy enough pvp community to support them and not just farm them (which there isnt), more to the point if you wanted to pvp restricted to 'scenarios' play WAR/WOW or GW, they all do them better then SWG.
All professions do not contribute to the overall group role, certainly not to the same extent. A good pvp group will take medics/officers/smugglers and bh's as a priority. You do not see a great deal of call for the rest, unless they are a secondary addition that no one really gives a damn about tagging onto the main core I spoke of. Btw combining officer action jewelry with meds heals and dire snares isn't exactly 'complex', nor is running up and down the ramp at the med centre, and yet in SWG they are considered just about the apex of pvp now lulz...
Using a buffhouse is indeed a choice, but its a choice pretty much every pvp centric guild takes. Regardless, however you want to take it, buffs ARE needed, because they are so accessible (contrary to what some posters seem to think), but the very accessibility of them makes it all the worse. Everyone has them and as such they are needed to compete (unless you are playing against morons). Running around with 3-4 rows of buffs as standard does not point to a combat system that is working correctly.
Don't get me wrong, I can fully respect that you personally enjoy the game, and that SWG does have some things still going for it for some elements of the gaming populace, but don't kid yourself into thinking its great for combat/pvp because it isnt.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I came back to SWG just over a week ago and have missed 1 night of play, I'm having so much fun.
I was away for 18 months or so and haven't had to buy anything to get right back into it. Admittedly I was already kitted out and had foods etc.
I don't find the buff situation bad at all and can manage just fine with the ent buffs, med buffs and pups that I was used to before. The great thing is that you don't have to keep re-buffing for PVP. You keep your buffs, including ent buffs on death now.
I play on Chilastra where the population seems similar or slightly more than when I left, lots of old friends and plenty of new faces around.
GCW is much easier to earn with the new Invasions and I've been invited to many Heroic Instance groups.
In the short time I've been back, the game seems in a better state than when I left it so I'd definately give it a go.
I don't think the trial is the right place to start for a vet though. Just re-sub for a month and see how it goes for you.
I came back to SWG just over a week ago and have missed 1 night of play, I'm having so much fun.
I was away for 18 months or so and haven't had to buy anything to get right back into it. Admittedly I was already kitted out and had foods etc.
I don't find the buff situation bad at all and can manage just fine with the ent buffs, med buffs and pups that I was used to before. The great thing is that you don't have to keep re-buffing for PVP. You keep your buffs, including ent buffs on death now.
I play on Chilastra where the population seems similar or slightly more than when I left, lots of old friends and plenty of new faces around.
GCW is much easier to earn with the new Invasions and I've been invited to many Heroic Instance groups.
In the short time I've been back, the game seems in a better state than when I left it so I'd definately give it a go.
I don't think the trial is the right place to start for a vet though. Just re-sub for a month and see how it goes for you.
well that's changing your tune:
"IMHO preCU was good, CU was better but NGE killed a beautiful game.
Don't get me wrong, I still played NGE for a few years but it never felt the same.
I would go back to preNGE today, without Mustafar, Heroic Encounters, Collections, Card Game lol, Hoth.
And 60% of population a Jedi... well that was just a kick in the teeth for anyone who played preNGE.
I firmly believe there is a market for preNGE SWG. Unfortunately SWGemu has taken too long and would never have the numbers that an official game would have.
Such a shame, but I'm proud to have played this game which I still regard as the best MMO ever made.
I came back to SWG just over a week ago and have missed 1 night of play, I'm having so much fun.
I was away for 18 months or so and haven't had to buy anything to get right back into it. Admittedly I was already kitted out and had foods etc.
I don't find the buff situation bad at all and can manage just fine with the ent buffs, med buffs and pups that I was used to before. The great thing is that you don't have to keep re-buffing for PVP. You keep your buffs, including ent buffs on death now.
I play on Chilastra where the population seems similar or slightly more than when I left, lots of old friends and plenty of new faces around.
GCW is much easier to earn with the new Invasions and I've been invited to many Heroic Instance groups.
In the short time I've been back, the game seems in a better state than when I left it so I'd definately give it a go.
I don't think the trial is the right place to start for a vet though. Just re-sub for a month and see how it goes for you.
well that's changing your tune:
"IMHO preCU was good, CU was better but NGE killed a beautiful game.
Don't get me wrong, I still played NGE for a few years but it never felt the same.
I would go back to preNGE today, without Mustafar, Heroic Encounters, Collections, Card Game lol, Hoth.
And 60% of population a Jedi... well that was just a kick in the teeth for anyone who played preNGE.
I firmly believe there is a market for preNGE SWG. Unfortunately SWGemu has taken too long and would never have the numbers that an official game would have.
Such a shame, but I'm proud to have played this game which I still regard as the best MMO ever made.
People have also failed to mention musty stims and oh lets see the single most game breaking buff of all to PVP the bacta tank not available to anyone p[ost village days.
For the pvp element of a game to be fun it must have easy accesibilty and balance SWG has neither.
The only PVP swg shines in that has easy access is space and I do still activeley subscribe for space.
Sure someone can have a UBER RE ship but hell I've taken down the majority of the best IMP and Rebel pilots in their pwnships in a pureley crafted ship its all about player skill ground PVP is all abut loading up with buffs and facerolling the keyboard.
To the OP SWG can be enjoyable on return and your money you have would get you into game believe me your going to need multiple billions to ever compete with the big boys though.
A veteran player that has been gone for a considerable amount of time and has main toons on a closed or dead server will find retunring a painful and possibly expensive undertaking. I revisited my old server of Bloodfin just this past February and found my old guild non-exisitent and most players had already transferred, rerolled or all out canceled. The server economy was in shambles. Bloodfin is certainly not unique in this situation (majority of the servers have serious low population issues), but it is just more noticable with Bloodfin since it was one of the more populated servers long ago.
To encourage a veteran player under the conditions I mentioned above to 'just re-sub' is essentially telling that player to throw away his money. Unless a returning player is already willing to reroll and do the painful grind to level 90 as well as grind to get all the items needed to effectively PvP, that player is going to have to pay $25/per toon to transfer to one of the few populated servers left. Starsider is the most populated by far, with Flurry and Bria distantly trailing.
I would suggest any veteran interested in returning with main characters on a dead server to try a free trial just to check out his old server out and one of the more populated servers before deciding to spend money and time on SWG.
AFK grinding GCW is nothing new and is something that certainly needs a look at, but I PVP for the fun of it.
Having my name up in lights would be nice but the players know who's who, regardless of what any list says.
That bot afk grinds kills not GCW, thats a whole different kettle of fish which the ents currently dominate which is lol worthy in it's own right.
The players do indeed know 'who's who' and will point out the fact that many of those 'known pvpers' have upped and left for pastures new.
I agree, I've been in the exact same situation of upping sticks and going to pastures new. The trouble is, those pastures are never as green as they look.
I have high hopes for GW2 but have played WAR, AION, WOW and many others since, each with their own failings.
I actually do a -8000 (or however many kills that bot gets) calculation for any fightclub bots I see on my kill charts, Chilly is still getting good action. I'm kinda jealous as I play on Chimaera. :P
Saw it mentioned, so wanted to say that a fix for the entertainers gaining daft amounts of GCW and dominating the leaderboards is on the way, soon(TM).
By the way Kazara, Bloodfin seems to be making a comeback. They are getting PvP sorted over there. Hopefully the next time you return you can make some new friends and enjoy SWG again.
AFK grinding GCW is nothing new and is something that certainly needs a look at, but I PVP for the fun of it.
Having my name up in lights would be nice but the players know who's who, regardless of what any list says.
That bot afk grinds kills not GCW, thats a whole different kettle of fish which the ents currently dominate which is lol worthy in it's own right.
The players do indeed know 'who's who' and will point out the fact that many of those 'known pvpers' have upped and left for pastures new.
I agree, I've been in the exact same situation of upping sticks and going to pastures new. The trouble is, those pastures are never as green as they look.
I have high hopes for GW2 but have played WAR, AION, WOW and many others since, each with their own failings.
That's true, there isn't an mmo out there without it's flaws in at least one aspect or another, and people will always find a game that suits them more then it does another. Whilst I have high hopes for GW2 that to will undoubtedly have its 'drawbacks' and until it's released we wont know exactly what they are.
All that being said from a pure combat system/pvp point of view (I am not fully sure how important that is to you ofc) even games that have failed their initial remit (WAR for example) are far superior in terms of combat mechanics and pvp then SWG. For me there is a host of games out there that do pvp better (or have more superior combat systems) then SWG, from those older games (UO/DAoC), to failed AAA titles (WAR), to casual behemoths (WOW), to more indie games like Darkfall, EVE and GW.
Many leave SWG (or other older style mmos) and try other games only to give up on them. The main reason being (as far as i can tell) is that once you are used to the sandbox style mmo, it's hard to be drawn into a themepark game. I'm of exactly the same sentiment hence why I play Darkfall and EVE (the latter of which is far more complex and community driven then SWG btw), but it would take a very brave man to state that these games do not have better combat systems and pvp then SWG. It's mainly these very combat systems that keep the hardcore pvp guilds (that I know of) away from SWG as they are so much better.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
..but it would take a very brave man to state that these games do not have better combat systems and pvp then SWG. It's mainly these very combat systems that keep the hardcore pvp guilds (that I know of) away from SWG as they are so much better.
I gave your comments some thought overnight, and I agree that PvP in SWG could use some serious loving. With the Leaderboards in, although not currently working as intended but soon to be fixed and GCW player bases getting a first pass I think systems like this are good for PvP.
Hopefully once the Player Base System is fully realised (I have a concept thread in this here: GCW Concept: Player GCW Base Revamp) and they make the planned second pass at it, player cities and guilds are then further intergrated into PvP and the GCW and the leaderboard system becomes something that PvPers can get recognition from then I think we're on the right track.
We'll be fighting with our guilds over our bases and cities again and for me this is where we need to get to.
I will definately be looking out for more ideas on how PvP in SWG can be made more engaging and appeal to the hardcore PvPers out there, so if you have some please let me know and I can pass them onto the GCW Senators/Devs.
..but it would take a very brave man to state that these games do not have better combat systems and pvp then SWG. It's mainly these very combat systems that keep the hardcore pvp guilds (that I know of) away from SWG as they are so much better.
I gave your comments some thought overnight, and I agree that PvP in SWG could use some serious loving. With the Leaderboards in, although not currently working as intended but soon to be fixed and GCW player bases getting a first pass I think systems like this are good for PvP.
Hopefully once the Player Base System is fully realised (I have a concept thread in this here: GCW Concept: Player GCW Base Revamp) and they make the planned second pass at it, player cities and guilds are then further intergrated into PvP and the GCW and the leaderboard system becomes something that PvPers can get recognition from then I think we're on the right track.
We'll be fighting with our guilds over our bases and cities again and for me this is where we need to get to.
I will definately be looking out for more ideas on how PvP in SWG can be made more engaging and appeal to the hardcore PvPers out there, so if you have some please let me know and I can pass them onto the GCW Senators/Devs.
So if I were to return to SWG is it a game that properly tests it's patches and listens to it's players on test servers, or do they just let anything go live even though it isn't working as intended? How long before things are fixed that are sent to the live game such as exploits or broken from game updates? Do they have a decent QA team? Does SWG normally copy game systems such as the honor system from WOW that were removed because they were open to exploits and didn't work? If I play afk and run macros constantly will I be penalized? Just afew questions because I might try the free trial since I haven't played in awhile.
....Just afew questions because I might try the free trial since I haven't played in awhile.
The quality of patches and systems is better these days, there are bugs and issues that don't get picked up till live but they tend to get fixed in the next available patch. The QA team seem to know their stuff and do what they can do stop bugs going live.
I don't know what the Honor system is in WoW, but you can indeed macro AFK 24/7 if you like, although there seems to be a concerted effort from Development to make the systems that people do play unattended more fun and engaging to encourage attended play.
Macros do auto-dump on trial accounts however, hope you enjoy the trial. Remember that you can hop onto Test Center and auto-level your character to 90 with all the uber gear if you want to take a look at the high end game for free.
..but it would take a very brave man to state that these games do not have better combat systems and pvp then SWG. It's mainly these very combat systems that keep the hardcore pvp guilds (that I know of) away from SWG as they are so much better.
I gave your comments some thought overnight, and I agree that PvP in SWG could use some serious loving. With the Leaderboards in, although not currently working as intended but soon to be fixed and GCW player bases getting a first pass I think systems like this are good for PvP.
Hopefully once the Player Base System is fully realised (I have a concept thread in this here: GCW Concept: Player GCW Base Revamp) and they make the planned second pass at it, player cities and guilds are then further intergrated into PvP and the GCW and the leaderboard system becomes something that PvPers can get recognition from then I think we're on the right track.
We'll be fighting with our guilds over our bases and cities again and for me this is where we need to get to.
I will definately be looking out for more ideas on how PvP in SWG can be made more engaging and appeal to the hardcore PvPers out there, so if you have some please let me know and I can pass them onto the GCW Senators/Devs.
Where to begin....
The issues with pvp in SWG covers four main issues; the mechanics, the population, the type of player playing the game and the structure of the server shards. But before even beginning to look at resolving the games issues, you have to look at what you can realistically achieve with the game.
Mechanics issues:
In order to truly draw people away from more successful pvp games, SWG would have to go right to the core of its class mechanics and change them wholesale. The inherent issue with the SWG prof system is that it is niether here nor there. Each class is capable of tanking, each can spike out damage, each can heal itself, each can to an extent cc, most can debuff, most have group buffs. You either need to make the classes more specialised (and thus force greater group cooperation and tactics like in WAR), or you need to revert to a skill based system. Of course this is never going to happen, the funds are simply not there and I highly doubt the populace of the game is willing to see another sea change in the games mechanics. This means that unlitmately, SWG will never draw a major amount of pvpers away from other mmos, but it can improve sufficiently with less drastic measures to appeal to people fond towards the game (of which there are a fair few i'm willing to bet).
At a more basic mechanic level, combat speed and overall damage and healing needs to be looked at, with the buff system reworked. There are far too many daft things in the game that need to be removed, having jewelry sets that set off double heals every 5 seconds, perma stealth, force run, SFP, unmitigatable attacks regardless of positioning etc etc. Everything is too easy, too random and occurs too often. Other games allow for things like this but they are either very very rare, very very short or you have to use some form of forward thinking in order to use them (positional attacks). Again this may fall into the unlikely to happen catagory.
The environment and erratic behavior of the npcs also doesn't help. In an ideal world the game world would be reworked to reduce all the LOS and wallhugging issues. But the most economical option would simply to be to add some well thought out areas to the game world which are specifically suited to pvp. Seriously, the thought of fighting in the medcentre again makes me cringe at how badly put together locations can be abused when there is so many aoes and cc's flying about (one thinks of the old keep system in WAR).
Population issues:
Given that the pvp population is fractured and that on many servers there simply isn't enough people queuing for BFs that actually want to pvp, the first thing that is obvious is to make cross server BFs. This should go some way to resolve the lack of playable BFs.
As an extension of the above, creating a pvp ruleset server would also allow for pvpers to clump together and thus increase both general pvp and world pvp. Having everyone perma SF in such a carebear centric game would cause issues no doubt, so an option would to be that you can mirror your home servers toon on the said pvp server. This will serve to ensure that those interested in pvp have access to it at most times and are not forced to simply pay to move to starsider or chili (which may not even be in their timezone anyway). Some people think that creating a pvp server would fracture the population on their own servers, this may partly be the case, but ultimately people who want to pvp will either get fed up and leave the game, or move to a diferent server chasing pvp anyway, so it is the best choice.
The players themselves:
Generally the population of SWG is pretty carebear and highly resistant to risk in the game. The lack of decay, meaningful death penalties and the like point to the fact that promting pvp to say the DF/EVE/UO crowd is going to be pointless. It also means that trying to rework the GCW system to promote healthy pvp is also going to be unlikely. Reworking the player bases system and pushing pvp back to player cities is all well and good, but how are you going to do that? PVPERS dont go to restuss because its fun there, some may go because without the med centre they suck, but mainly its because thats the only place the servers are capable to handle mass pvp. To push city/player city pvp more server shards need to be added to make the game stable for said pvp. The devs should also be careful about adding any rewards for pvping, because the pve crowd will cry about it, which leads me to the next point.. Unless they are ging to rework the entire game they need to forget about combining pve and pvp, it's not going to work as a bodged job simple as that.
TL;DR version:
Don't look to capture masses of pvpers from better pvp games, be more realistic and do the little things well instead of butchering the big thingss.
Completely change the class mechanics. - Highly unlikely.
Slight reworking of buff/class system to promote more group cointergration, reduce all the double heals, SFP and snare/run abilities.
Add more pvp viable locations with less wall hugging potential (thinking player bases and cities here).
Bring the pvp population together (main issue) - cross server BF's, a pvp server with perma sf and home server mirror toons.
Add more hamsters to the servers, specifically at poi's/player cities and major npcs cities. Remove the npcs from pvp hub locations.
Stop attempting to combine pvers and pvpers in the GCW system. Stop attempting to prmote pvp by adding shinies, promote it through better servers and more frequent, enjoyable pvp.
I really thought about focussing on the GCW and trying to build up realm pride like DAoC/GW2, but the reality of the situation is that this wont happen. The most obvious and simply fix is to simply make a pvp server and have cross realm BF's. No this wont make the mechanics any better, but it will make the current pvp player base happier, and potentially attract newer players.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Here's the last news on x-server play from Fan Faire, which wasn't good but they've been able to implement systems that they preiously deemed too difficult in the past. Hopefully they can sort this out:
______________
Cross Server Battlegrounds
To keep PvP players from flooding Starsider, it was suggested to make some cross-server battleground areas where people could join from any server. The Starsider community is considered that the reduction in character transfer will draw to many people to Starsider.
Dev Response: Cross Server tech was researched by the devs and proved to be very involved to implement correctly. Instead the team focused on getting CTS to work as best as it can.
______________
As for profession balance, in my mind the profession balance in SWG comes from the fact that everyone is overpowered. It achieves one thing in that players feel heroic and awesome when they anhillate swathes of enemies or tank like mad.
There are elements of the traditional "Iron Triangle" of Tank/Heal/DPS with Mezz in there too, but also thrown into the mix are abilities from Star Wars canon which really liven things up. You can pretty much take any of the classes and move it to whatever egde of the "Iron Triangle" that suits your playstyle via expertise, equipment and buff package choices.
I notice you are an old Feluccan UO player like me, and like me I assume you enjoyed the more hardcore MMO game mechanics like perma PvP-enabled, skill loss, item loss, decay etc. You'll also be aware that these mechanics need to be optional otherwise you risk alienating the non-PvPing playerbase.
I like the idea of optional decay via a new form of Smuggler slicing, perhaps a PvP only system that only effects PvP stats.
quality of patches and systems is better these days, there are bugs and issues that don't get picked up till live but they tend to get fixed in the next available patch.
Graves, read this post before you believe everything you read here. Teesquared is the SWG Producer. What he says, should tell you all you need to know about the current development team. Pay careful attention to the dates.
quality of patches and systems is better these days, there are bugs and issues that don't get picked up till live but they tend to get fixed in the next available patch.
Graves, read this post before you believe everything you read here. Teesquared is the SWG Producer. What he says, should tell you all you need to know about the current development team. Pay careful attention to the dates.
yep, this was the first thing that came to my mind as well.
I wonder what the agenda is of some people on here.
If I can come back to the game and enjoy it, why put other people off doing the same thing?
Sure SWG has bugs/exploits, but no more than most games. I even see a Darkfall player here... that's a game brimming with hacks and exploits.
The fact is SWG can be enjoyable, whether for PVP or PVE.
All the talk about wall hugging and LOS issues... you don't need to put yourself in that situation. Anyone who has played a while knows where this can happen. What's the big deal trying to kill someone taking advantage of it? Just don't bother with them, they'll soon get bored.
The thread was asking "How easy is it to get back into SWG?" but has turned into a troll infested SWG bashing thread by some people who probably haven't even played the game recently.
I played WAR for over 12 months. PVP was great, but the "end game" content crashed the server on almost EVERY SINGLE OCCASION after hours of work to get there, and when you talk about LOS, this game had it in abundance with no way to avoid it.
All games have problems, so unless the game you play is perfect, I don't see the point of your comments other than some revenge against SOE.
Time to let it go!
EDIT:
Just wanted to mention something about population and server merges too.
Some servers for SWG have been dropped (after how many years?) and several servers merged.
I played WAR for a little over 12 months and suffered no less than 3 server merges in that time. Absolutely ridiculous.
Some of the arguments in this thread have no substance whatsoever when compared to other games.
Absolutely nothing Jacklo, which is why I'm not playing anything at all.
However, it's not a question of how much per month as opposed to quality per month. Give me a quality game worthy of more then $15/month and I'll pay it.
BTW right now I don't think there is anything wirth $5.00 a month, nevermind $15.00.
Comments
Bunnyhopper,
I get the impression that you feel Buffs are used as a pseudo PvP damage reduction modifier? I suppose in a way they are, but they also increase damage done and many other offensive attributes so they are certainly not doing anything to "rebalance the spike damage". This is where tactics come in, as soon as you see an Officer activate Superior Firepower, which will allow a devastating volley of area attacks which can wipe a group, have your medic but him in stasis preventing him from taking any action until Superior Firepower has gone.
I really like the buff system, for me it's a further layer of character customisation that allows you more flexibility in designing your toon to suit your gameplay style. For example, you can make your Smuggler even more of a glass cannon with crazy damage or make him really defensive. Each profession can be further tailored as you see fit using the buff package of your choice, layering in top of your expertise and equipment choices.
Overall PvP combat in SWG is the most balanced that I have ever played it with all combat professions bringing meaningful contributions to a group.
Area of effect attacks from players don't create substantial lag that I know of, I remember a time when they did but the Devs fixed it. We can have mass PvP battles and not see any lag unless there are NPCs involved, a ton of NPCs in combat create loads of latency but PvP in itself doesn't tend to. NPCs getting in the way of PvP in places like Restuss is something that is being discussed on the GCW forum currently, but otherwise we have Battlefields for guaranteed lag free PvP.
Using a buff house is a choice, you can run about to different professions if you prefer, or in my case I do that with some of my alts that aren't guilded and dont have access to buff houses. On those I tend to get meds and ent buffs from Eisley then spam Officers a tell on the player search tool asking for some tactical stims, this whole process takes about five minutes but then I'm set for four hours or so.
On my main PvP toons I'll log in to the buff house and be ready to go as fast as an ent can buff me.
Indeed they are used as a pseudo damage reduction modifier, as well as to increase the damage of those profs that have limited spike output. Please don't talk to me about tactics (spotting and stopping an officer using SFP isn't exactly rocket science), I am well aware of what was required in that game to succeed. It's because I have played that game to a high level in pvp and that I have played other mmos to a decent level that I feel I am able to quantify just how good/bad the combat (especially the pvp combat) is in SWG. More importantly those people I have played with or against in terms of major pvp guilds have either bailed on the game or only pop back on the odd occassion due to the very fact that it's crap for pvp.
AOES don't create lag? The antiquated servers running constant aoe checks doesnt help server load. NPCS in Restuss are indeed a pain and do increase lag, but they where talking about that since its release, nothings changed, nothing will. BF's are great if there is a healthy enough pvp community to support them and not just farm them (which there isnt), more to the point if you wanted to pvp restricted to 'scenarios' play WAR/WOW or GW, they all do them better then SWG.
All professions do not contribute to the overall group role, certainly not to the same extent. A good pvp group will take medics/officers/smugglers and bh's as a priority. You do not see a great deal of call for the rest, unless they are a secondary addition that no one really gives a damn about tagging onto the main core I spoke of. Btw combining officer action jewelry with meds heals and dire snares isn't exactly 'complex', nor is running up and down the ramp at the med centre, and yet in SWG they are considered just about the apex of pvp now lulz...
Using a buffhouse is indeed a choice, but its a choice pretty much every pvp centric guild takes. Regardless, however you want to take it, buffs ARE needed, because they are so accessible (contrary to what some posters seem to think), but the very accessibility of them makes it all the worse. Everyone has them and as such they are needed to compete (unless you are playing against morons). Running around with 3-4 rows of buffs as standard does not point to a combat system that is working correctly.
Don't get me wrong, I can fully respect that you personally enjoy the game, and that SWG does have some things still going for it for some elements of the gaming populace, but don't kid yourself into thinking its great for combat/pvp because it isnt.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I came back to SWG just over a week ago and have missed 1 night of play, I'm having so much fun.
I was away for 18 months or so and haven't had to buy anything to get right back into it. Admittedly I was already kitted out and had foods etc.
I don't find the buff situation bad at all and can manage just fine with the ent buffs, med buffs and pups that I was used to before. The great thing is that you don't have to keep re-buffing for PVP. You keep your buffs, including ent buffs on death now.
I play on Chilastra where the population seems similar or slightly more than when I left, lots of old friends and plenty of new faces around.
GCW is much easier to earn with the new Invasions and I've been invited to many Heroic Instance groups.
In the short time I've been back, the game seems in a better state than when I left it so I'd definately give it a go.
I don't think the trial is the right place to start for a vet though. Just re-sub for a month and see how it goes for you.
well that's changing your tune:
"IMHO preCU was good, CU was better but NGE killed a beautiful game.
Don't get me wrong, I still played NGE for a few years but it never felt the same.
I would go back to preNGE today, without Mustafar, Heroic Encounters, Collections, Card Game lol, Hoth.
And 60% of population a Jedi... well that was just a kick in the teeth for anyone who played preNGE.
I firmly believe there is a market for preNGE SWG. Unfortunately SWGemu has taken too long and would never have the numbers that an official game would have.
Such a shame, but I'm proud to have played this game which I still regard as the best MMO ever made.
/salute my old friends
"
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/3372349#3372349
It happens, espcially if he has logged into Chilastra. PvP stats there have been crazy recently, lots of action.
http://swg.activeframe.de/bb-std/tp/main.16.chilastra.afk-gcw-bot_beautiful-black-man.html
Indeed.
Seriously though, if someone is going to try SWG and wants to pvp (god knows why), then Chili is the best bet assuming you are in the NA timezone ofc.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
AFK grinding GCW is nothing new and is something that certainly needs a look at, but I PVP for the fun of it.
Having my name up in lights would be nice but the players know who's who, regardless of what any list says.
That bot afk grinds kills not GCW, thats a whole different kettle of fish which the ents currently dominate which is lol worthy in it's own right.
The players do indeed know 'who's who' and will point out the fact that many of those 'known pvpers' have upped and left for pastures new.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
lol give it up badger
Its not complexity its fudged up design.
People have also failed to mention musty stims and oh lets see the single most game breaking buff of all to PVP the bacta tank not available to anyone p[ost village days.
For the pvp element of a game to be fun it must have easy accesibilty and balance SWG has neither.
The only PVP swg shines in that has easy access is space and I do still activeley subscribe for space.
Sure someone can have a UBER RE ship but hell I've taken down the majority of the best IMP and Rebel pilots in their pwnships in a pureley crafted ship its all about player skill ground PVP is all abut loading up with buffs and facerolling the keyboard.
To the OP SWG can be enjoyable on return and your money you have would get you into game believe me your going to need multiple billions to ever compete with the big boys though.
A veteran player that has been gone for a considerable amount of time and has main toons on a closed or dead server will find retunring a painful and possibly expensive undertaking. I revisited my old server of Bloodfin just this past February and found my old guild non-exisitent and most players had already transferred, rerolled or all out canceled. The server economy was in shambles. Bloodfin is certainly not unique in this situation (majority of the servers have serious low population issues), but it is just more noticable with Bloodfin since it was one of the more populated servers long ago.
To encourage a veteran player under the conditions I mentioned above to 'just re-sub' is essentially telling that player to throw away his money. Unless a returning player is already willing to reroll and do the painful grind to level 90 as well as grind to get all the items needed to effectively PvP, that player is going to have to pay $25/per toon to transfer to one of the few populated servers left. Starsider is the most populated by far, with Flurry and Bria distantly trailing.
I would suggest any veteran interested in returning with main characters on a dead server to try a free trial just to check out his old server out and one of the more populated servers before deciding to spend money and time on SWG.
I agree, I've been in the exact same situation of upping sticks and going to pastures new. The trouble is, those pastures are never as green as they look.
I have high hopes for GW2 but have played WAR, AION, WOW and many others since, each with their own failings.
I actually do a -8000 (or however many kills that bot gets) calculation for any fightclub bots I see on my kill charts, Chilly is still getting good action. I'm kinda jealous as I play on Chimaera. :P
Saw it mentioned, so wanted to say that a fix for the entertainers gaining daft amounts of GCW and dominating the leaderboards is on the way, soon(TM).
By the way Kazara, Bloodfin seems to be making a comeback. They are getting PvP sorted over there. Hopefully the next time you return you can make some new friends and enjoy SWG again.
That's true, there isn't an mmo out there without it's flaws in at least one aspect or another, and people will always find a game that suits them more then it does another. Whilst I have high hopes for GW2 that to will undoubtedly have its 'drawbacks' and until it's released we wont know exactly what they are.
All that being said from a pure combat system/pvp point of view (I am not fully sure how important that is to you ofc) even games that have failed their initial remit (WAR for example) are far superior in terms of combat mechanics and pvp then SWG. For me there is a host of games out there that do pvp better (or have more superior combat systems) then SWG, from those older games (UO/DAoC), to failed AAA titles (WAR), to casual behemoths (WOW), to more indie games like Darkfall, EVE and GW.
Many leave SWG (or other older style mmos) and try other games only to give up on them. The main reason being (as far as i can tell) is that once you are used to the sandbox style mmo, it's hard to be drawn into a themepark game. I'm of exactly the same sentiment hence why I play Darkfall and EVE (the latter of which is far more complex and community driven then SWG btw), but it would take a very brave man to state that these games do not have better combat systems and pvp then SWG. It's mainly these very combat systems that keep the hardcore pvp guilds (that I know of) away from SWG as they are so much better.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I gave your comments some thought overnight, and I agree that PvP in SWG could use some serious loving. With the Leaderboards in, although not currently working as intended but soon to be fixed and GCW player bases getting a first pass I think systems like this are good for PvP.
Hopefully once the Player Base System is fully realised (I have a concept thread in this here: GCW Concept: Player GCW Base Revamp) and they make the planned second pass at it, player cities and guilds are then further intergrated into PvP and the GCW and the leaderboard system becomes something that PvPers can get recognition from then I think we're on the right track.
We'll be fighting with our guilds over our bases and cities again and for me this is where we need to get to.
I will definately be looking out for more ideas on how PvP in SWG can be made more engaging and appeal to the hardcore PvPers out there, so if you have some please let me know and I can pass them onto the GCW Senators/Devs.
So if I were to return to SWG is it a game that properly tests it's patches and listens to it's players on test servers, or do they just let anything go live even though it isn't working as intended? How long before things are fixed that are sent to the live game such as exploits or broken from game updates? Do they have a decent QA team? Does SWG normally copy game systems such as the honor system from WOW that were removed because they were open to exploits and didn't work? If I play afk and run macros constantly will I be penalized? Just afew questions because I might try the free trial since I haven't played in awhile.
The quality of patches and systems is better these days, there are bugs and issues that don't get picked up till live but they tend to get fixed in the next available patch. The QA team seem to know their stuff and do what they can do stop bugs going live.
I don't know what the Honor system is in WoW, but you can indeed macro AFK 24/7 if you like, although there seems to be a concerted effort from Development to make the systems that people do play unattended more fun and engaging to encourage attended play.
Macros do auto-dump on trial accounts however, hope you enjoy the trial. Remember that you can hop onto Test Center and auto-level your character to 90 with all the uber gear if you want to take a look at the high end game for free.
Where to begin....
The issues with pvp in SWG covers four main issues; the mechanics, the population, the type of player playing the game and the structure of the server shards. But before even beginning to look at resolving the games issues, you have to look at what you can realistically achieve with the game.
Mechanics issues:
In order to truly draw people away from more successful pvp games, SWG would have to go right to the core of its class mechanics and change them wholesale. The inherent issue with the SWG prof system is that it is niether here nor there. Each class is capable of tanking, each can spike out damage, each can heal itself, each can to an extent cc, most can debuff, most have group buffs. You either need to make the classes more specialised (and thus force greater group cooperation and tactics like in WAR), or you need to revert to a skill based system. Of course this is never going to happen, the funds are simply not there and I highly doubt the populace of the game is willing to see another sea change in the games mechanics. This means that unlitmately, SWG will never draw a major amount of pvpers away from other mmos, but it can improve sufficiently with less drastic measures to appeal to people fond towards the game (of which there are a fair few i'm willing to bet).
At a more basic mechanic level, combat speed and overall damage and healing needs to be looked at, with the buff system reworked. There are far too many daft things in the game that need to be removed, having jewelry sets that set off double heals every 5 seconds, perma stealth, force run, SFP, unmitigatable attacks regardless of positioning etc etc. Everything is too easy, too random and occurs too often. Other games allow for things like this but they are either very very rare, very very short or you have to use some form of forward thinking in order to use them (positional attacks). Again this may fall into the unlikely to happen catagory.
The environment and erratic behavior of the npcs also doesn't help. In an ideal world the game world would be reworked to reduce all the LOS and wallhugging issues. But the most economical option would simply to be to add some well thought out areas to the game world which are specifically suited to pvp. Seriously, the thought of fighting in the medcentre again makes me cringe at how badly put together locations can be abused when there is so many aoes and cc's flying about (one thinks of the old keep system in WAR).
Population issues:
Given that the pvp population is fractured and that on many servers there simply isn't enough people queuing for BFs that actually want to pvp, the first thing that is obvious is to make cross server BFs. This should go some way to resolve the lack of playable BFs.
As an extension of the above, creating a pvp ruleset server would also allow for pvpers to clump together and thus increase both general pvp and world pvp. Having everyone perma SF in such a carebear centric game would cause issues no doubt, so an option would to be that you can mirror your home servers toon on the said pvp server. This will serve to ensure that those interested in pvp have access to it at most times and are not forced to simply pay to move to starsider or chili (which may not even be in their timezone anyway). Some people think that creating a pvp server would fracture the population on their own servers, this may partly be the case, but ultimately people who want to pvp will either get fed up and leave the game, or move to a diferent server chasing pvp anyway, so it is the best choice.
The players themselves:
Generally the population of SWG is pretty carebear and highly resistant to risk in the game. The lack of decay, meaningful death penalties and the like point to the fact that promting pvp to say the DF/EVE/UO crowd is going to be pointless. It also means that trying to rework the GCW system to promote healthy pvp is also going to be unlikely. Reworking the player bases system and pushing pvp back to player cities is all well and good, but how are you going to do that? PVPERS dont go to restuss because its fun there, some may go because without the med centre they suck, but mainly its because thats the only place the servers are capable to handle mass pvp. To push city/player city pvp more server shards need to be added to make the game stable for said pvp. The devs should also be careful about adding any rewards for pvping, because the pve crowd will cry about it, which leads me to the next point.. Unless they are ging to rework the entire game they need to forget about combining pve and pvp, it's not going to work as a bodged job simple as that.
TL;DR version:
Don't look to capture masses of pvpers from better pvp games, be more realistic and do the little things well instead of butchering the big thingss.
Completely change the class mechanics. - Highly unlikely.
Slight reworking of buff/class system to promote more group cointergration, reduce all the double heals, SFP and snare/run abilities.
Add more pvp viable locations with less wall hugging potential (thinking player bases and cities here).
Bring the pvp population together (main issue) - cross server BF's, a pvp server with perma sf and home server mirror toons.
Add more hamsters to the servers, specifically at poi's/player cities and major npcs cities. Remove the npcs from pvp hub locations.
Stop attempting to combine pvers and pvpers in the GCW system. Stop attempting to prmote pvp by adding shinies, promote it through better servers and more frequent, enjoyable pvp.
I really thought about focussing on the GCW and trying to build up realm pride like DAoC/GW2, but the reality of the situation is that this wont happen. The most obvious and simply fix is to simply make a pvp server and have cross realm BF's. No this wont make the mechanics any better, but it will make the current pvp player base happier, and potentially attract newer players.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Thanks bunnyhopper,
I ended up putting up this new thread today to get more info on improving PvP: Game Play Focus: Player versus Player Combat
Here's the last news on x-server play from Fan Faire, which wasn't good but they've been able to implement systems that they preiously deemed too difficult in the past. Hopefully they can sort this out:
______________
Cross Server Battlegrounds
To keep PvP players from flooding Starsider, it was suggested to make some cross-server battleground areas where people could join from any server. The Starsider community is considered that the reduction in character transfer will draw to many people to Starsider.
Dev Response: Cross Server tech was researched by the devs and proved to be very involved to implement correctly. Instead the team focused on getting CTS to work as best as it can.
______________
As for profession balance, in my mind the profession balance in SWG comes from the fact that everyone is overpowered. It achieves one thing in that players feel heroic and awesome when they anhillate swathes of enemies or tank like mad.
There are elements of the traditional "Iron Triangle" of Tank/Heal/DPS with Mezz in there too, but also thrown into the mix are abilities from Star Wars canon which really liven things up. You can pretty much take any of the classes and move it to whatever egde of the "Iron Triangle" that suits your playstyle via expertise, equipment and buff package choices.
I notice you are an old Feluccan UO player like me, and like me I assume you enjoyed the more hardcore MMO game mechanics like perma PvP-enabled, skill loss, item loss, decay etc. You'll also be aware that these mechanics need to be optional otherwise you risk alienating the non-PvPing playerbase.
I like the idea of optional decay via a new form of Smuggler slicing, perhaps a PvP only system that only effects PvP stats.
Graves, read this post before you believe everything you read here. Teesquared is the SWG Producer. What he says, should tell you all you need to know about the current development team. Pay careful attention to the dates.
yep, this was the first thing that came to my mind as well.
I wonder what the agenda is of some people on here.
If I can come back to the game and enjoy it, why put other people off doing the same thing?
Sure SWG has bugs/exploits, but no more than most games. I even see a Darkfall player here... that's a game brimming with hacks and exploits.
The fact is SWG can be enjoyable, whether for PVP or PVE.
All the talk about wall hugging and LOS issues... you don't need to put yourself in that situation. Anyone who has played a while knows where this can happen. What's the big deal trying to kill someone taking advantage of it? Just don't bother with them, they'll soon get bored.
The thread was asking "How easy is it to get back into SWG?" but has turned into a troll infested SWG bashing thread by some people who probably haven't even played the game recently.
I played WAR for over 12 months. PVP was great, but the "end game" content crashed the server on almost EVERY SINGLE OCCASION after hours of work to get there, and when you talk about LOS, this game had it in abundance with no way to avoid it.
All games have problems, so unless the game you play is perfect, I don't see the point of your comments other than some revenge against SOE.
Time to let it go!
EDIT:
Just wanted to mention something about population and server merges too.
Some servers for SWG have been dropped (after how many years?) and several servers merged.
I played WAR for a little over 12 months and suffered no less than 3 server merges in that time. Absolutely ridiculous.
Some of the arguments in this thread have no substance whatsoever when compared to other games.
I could say the same for every other MMO I've played since, hence why I'm right back where I started.
What game are you playing right now that deserves your subs?
Absolutely nothing Jacklo, which is why I'm not playing anything at all.
However, it's not a question of how much per month as opposed to quality per month. Give me a quality game worthy of more then $15/month and I'll pay it.
BTW right now I don't think there is anything wirth $5.00 a month, nevermind $15.00.