Even if you get 10,000 new players in 1 year, it will not make a difference to soe. They simply do not have the staff, budget or talent to make a real effort at this game. 1.8 million dollars a year from your 10k new players is not going to turn the game around or stop the loss of players the game is already experiencing. Soe cut their staff by almost 10% over the last 12 or so months. Vanguard will not get new developers, even with 10k new players.
Soe will take that money and put it to use somewhere else, because they do not believe in the future of this game and they never have.
If vanguard was a car or a restaurant you wouldn't be here telling people its lack of success was our fault and that we should reward sub par products, poor service and mismanagement with our money. There are 100 other broken mmos that could have been "saved" if only people were willing to hand over money with the blind faith that somehow things would turn out successful.
It is up to soe to convince players that this game is worth investing in. It is not the responsibility of players to fund a failed project so that a company can make profits. A company is not entitled to customers or money and frankly the mindset you are preaching is exactly the mindset that empowers developers to prematurely release mmos. The theory that there are enough suckers to fund completion of the game for the first 12 months after release needs to die and go away.
I just cannot disagree with you strongly enough.
You can disagree all you want, but the fact of the matter is.
SOE won't pass up on it's biggest business model. This game is truly their best shot at the wealth they seek, but since they're not looking at long term effect and simply only looking at the immediate effect. This game will never get the life it needs.
If they're cutting staff, then you can see why...since I can see how poorly they've handled the purchase of VG. Poorly managed, as always.
While I understand your point of view, you also have to understand. That even as already paying customers, sometimes we still have to offer constructive assistance in order to get better service. Even if it costs more.
SOE will follow the money, and plus I already had the idea of legal documents if this did ever happen, and SOE took the donation money. As it cannot be spent outside of VG.
Vanguard remains one of my favorite MMO's, but just like everyone else that left the game I felt like it lost its luster at endgame.
I guess the latest merges didn't help boost the population? Last time I checked in I was ready for some fun but there was no one to group with. Then I remembered when Vanguard first came out there was hardly anyone to group with either. From my recollection nobody could run the game on their computer because of the graphics load.
I don't think there is a way to fix the population. I am playing another game now with population issues - PotBS. Everyone there knows the game would be much more fun worth more population, but unfortunately it keeps shrinking.
The only one who can restore population to Vanguard are the owners. If they do not want to spend any more money on marketing or development then it is guaranteed that VG will remain a cult favorite, no more.
Vanguard remains one of my favorit MMO's, but just like everyone else that left the game loses its luster at endgame.
I guess the latest merges didn't help boost the population? Last time I checked in I was ready for some fun but there was no one to group with. Then I remembered when Vanguard first came out there was hardly anyone to group with either. From my recollection nobody could run the game on their computer because of the graphics load.
I don't think there is a way to fix the population. I am playing another game now with population issues - PotBS. Everyone there knows the game would be much more fun worth more population, but unfortunately it keeps shrinking.
The only one who can restore population to Vanguard are the owners. If they do not want to spend any more money on marketing or development then it is guaranteed that VG will remain a cult favorite, no more.
Hmm, I haven't had problems with grouping lately, granted it's not instant but it doesn't ever take more than 10-20 minutes to get something going. What time of day and what day did you try?
I thank that SOE is just keeping the game around till EQ next. They are I believe, going to make EQ next like VG and then close VG and usher the players over in to it. They never did like another game feeling more like EQ, and it not being made by them.
I should add that this is more my feeling/fantasy (with a lot of hope mixed in) then based on any fact (done FACTS just get in the way).
Do you really think handing soe a pile of money is going to somehow change their ability to manage this game or alter their future plans for the mmo space? Even 10,000 players in the next year will not even put VGs subscriber base close to what it previously was. You are still talking about a 1 server game here.
While I agree VG is the best game soe has in their current stable, you are sorely wrong about it being their best chance for huge success. Soe isn't going to pull developers off DCU, The Agency or EQNext to work on this failed project. It just is not going to happen and all you are going to do is hand over a pile of money as a reward for failure.
Have you ever heard the term Throwing good money after bad?
Lets just say you do manage to get a pile of new players, a pile of money and some legal document. What do you think soe is going to do? Do you think they will suddenly see the potential in this game and if that is the case what the hell were they doing these last 3 years?
Keep in mind soe is a company that is aiming for subscriber numbers in the area of millions. Smed thinks they can make a game that will get 20 million players, no joke he said that. I am genuinely curious as to what you think your project will accomplish. What goals and expectations have you set and what do you think will be achieved?
Other than making a new account to beg for money, time and faith from people, what is your plan?
Do you really think handing soe a pile of money is going to somehow change their ability to manage this game or alter their future plans for the mmo space? Even 10,000 players in the next year will not even put VGs subscriber base close to what it previously was. You are still talking about a 1 server game here.
While I agree VG is the best game soe has in their current stable, you are sorely wrong about it being their best chance for huge success. Soe isn't going to pull developers off DCU, The Agency or EQNext to work on this failed project. It just is not going to happen and all you are going to do is hand over a pile of money as a reward for failure.
Have you ever heard the term Throwing good money after bad?
Lets just say you do manage to get a pile of new players, a pile of money and some legal document. What do you think soe is going to do? Do you think they will suddenly see the potential in this game and if that is the case what the hell were they doing these last 3 years?
Keep in mind soe is a company that is aiming for subscriber numbers in the area of millions. Smed thinks they can make a game that will get 20 million players, no joke he said that. I am genuinely curious as to what you think your project will accomplish. What goals and expectations have you set and what do you think will be achieved?
Other than making a new account to beg for money, time and faith from people, what is your plan?
I am a motivational speaker, and I've always wanted to somehow apply my skills to the video game industry.
Yes to all your questions, I simply could convince SOE to do such a thing. If I could gain a stable start towards this goal.
This is the only way it would create enough publicity and starting funds to breed more and new life back into VG.
While I do not and will not be playing Vanguard, I do agree with the OP on one major point, the Primary point of failure for Vanguard and all recent failed mmorpg's is us the players as a whole.
the primary differences in the launch of EQ/UO/WoW etc.. compared to all later releases is that the players expectations have skyrocketed as has the cost of production to attempt to meet those expectations . If you look at those launches all of the popular releases have had major bug/stability/content issues, but during that time players were more accepting of these issues so continued to play and pay throughout these issues thus providing enough income and potential to continue to improve the game.
Post WoW the expectations of the players has gone up to the point that if it is not already on par with wow after 10 or so years of development people just drop it to go back to their old game and wait for the next new one to pick up and drop. thus never giving the new games a chance to ever reach their potential.
So unless there is a huge shift somewhere the pattern will continue, weather that's a decrease in the cost of producing AAA titles or a change in the general attitude of the players or even some company managing to release such an incredible game that it is loved by most at launch and thereafter but again the time and cost of achieving that make the chances slim, there is just so much risk in trying.
I think our best hope is a game that has a business model that relies on box sales rather than subs, where if they at least get enough initial sales they can continue development and since many of the current failures have had good initial sales it could work.
While I do not and will not be playing Vanguard, I do agree with the OP on one major point, the Primary point of failure for Vanguard and all recent failed mmorpg's is us the players as a whole.
the primary differences in the launch of EQ/UO/WoW etc.. compared to all later releases is that the players expectations have skyrocketed as has the cost of production to attempt to meet those expectations . If you look at those launches all of the popular releases have had major bug/stability/content issues, but during that time players were more accepting of these issues so continued to play and pay throughout these issues thus providing enough income and potential to continue to improve the game.
Post WoW the expectations of the players has gone up to the point that if it is not already on par with wow after 10 or so years of development people just drop it to go back to their old game and wait for the next new one to pick up and drop. thus never giving the new games a chance to ever reach their potential.
So unless there is a huge shift somewhere the pattern will continue, weather that's a decrease in the cost of producing AAA titles or a change in the general attitude of the players or even some company managing to release such an incredible game that it is loved by most at launch and thereafter but again the time and cost of achieving that make the chances slim, there is just so much risk in trying.
I think our best hope is a game that has a business model that relies on box sales rather than subs, where if they at least get enough initial sales they can continue development and since many of the current failures have had good initial sales it could work.
First of all, Vanguard's launch was the most bug ridden crap fest I've ever experienced. It had nothing to do with expectations, they did a terrible job. That alone setup their failure, you don't get to come back from something like that. Servers crashing every 30 min to an hour, causing all of the information to be reset was enought to drive most of the people away and for them to tell everyone else around not to go anywhere near that game. If you mess up your launch that badly, you deserve to fail. Vanguard got what it deserved.
Second, yes players tend to expect each new MMO to be innovative and stunning and have more content then an MMO that's been around for 5-10 years. But that alone does not hurt the genre, it just boosts box sales.
Lastly, the problem is MMO companies are spending 80-100 million on an MMO because they go into it EXPECTING to have millions of subscribers. These games are failing because the companies have the wrong expectations and are over-spending. They need to release with significantly smaller budgets. Provide less content at launch but make sure it is all bug free and polished, and then grow over time which will allow the player base to grow. If managed correctly every MMO can be profitable, problem is they are all jumping in head first by spending far too much pre-release and aiming too high.
I am a motivational speaker, and I've always wanted to somehow apply my skills to the video game industry.
Yes to all your questions, I simply could convince SOE to do such a thing. If I could gain a stable start towards this goal.
This is the only way it would create enough publicity and starting funds to breed more and new life back into VG.
Again I ask, you could get soe to do what?
Once your plan has achieved the goals you set out to do, what will be the state of vanguard, the development team and soe as a whole?
Are you going to turn vanguard into their most successful game as you suggest in this thread? Will soe be forced to add new servers to meet the demand of new players? Will soe start developing expansions for the game?
What exactly are you going to accomplish?
I can think of several other ways that could generate publicity, funds and gaining new life back into the game. Most of which is business 101 type stuff that doesn't rely on a motivational speaker tugging the heart strings of players to donate money to a failed project that has been mismanaged by a company. So there are plenty of other ways to achieve the same goals and the parent company has shown they are not interested in such efforts.
No question VG is a very goodgame,it is the players thta let Sigil down.Sigil tried to give people a beter version of EQ2 and were let down,so instead we have a lot of weak efforts out there by developers.
You are correct in saying that people would have stuck by this game it would be huge.No matter how bad anyone thinks this game was at alunch it was still 300+% better than Eve was at launch ,yet their fanbase stuck by that game for 7 years.
Still to this day,there is not one single game that can lay claim to a better effort than what went into VG.Everything i have seen lately is incredible cheap effort,and i don't care about budget anymore,spending a ton on voice actors and hiring outside contracts for music/sound is not the entire game.
There is without question a LOT more than meets the eye ,when comes to attracting players,all you have to do is wake up and look at millions playing Farmvilles and all the other low budget crap out there,nope it has nothing to do with quality ,when comes to player base.Unfortunately for Vanguard and Sigil it didn't have tha taura of mistique or that marketing firm to push it across the airwaves,it just never had a chance.
I have this firm belief that if Blizzard had of released this EXACT same game instead of Wow and used the same marketing and hype it would have had the 10+ million instead of Wow,for reasons beyond the quality of the game.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Before the game launched my brother and I were excited to try this game, however at the time he was the only one with a system capable of running the game decently so he was the only one to buy it for release. I vividly remember the horror of watching my brother try to play the game launch day... needless to say within hours the game was uninstalled and shelved, which is where it belong even to this day.
Was it pretty? Yes, but to me performance + gameplay always comes first and the game clearly failed in that regard. Launching a bugged game that ran as though even the best of machines were run by hamsters in a wheel and having little to no content is the worst choice any MMO can make, like someone said... we NEVER forget.
Want to know why AoC still suffers even though it's a decent game these days? The poor launch, same applies to this game no matter what you may say. All I know of this game these days is that there is a very small elitist player-base at max level... other than that finding groups for earlier level content is near impossible.
Wake up and smell the roses, move on from the trash game and find something new to play.
This is a classic example of people getting so emotionally attached to a game they start blaming the failure of the game on consumers.
The OP has even suggested a donation box of all things.
We are not investors. We are not employed by the company. We have absolutely no responsibility for the failures of this game due to bad code, bad content decisions or bad design. People tried to support the game. SOE couldn't save it with the meager support. End of story.
The consumers were never consulted on what direction the game should head before or after launch. With guys like the OP running around I don't think consumers should be consulted, either.
It's the whole fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me deal. SOE has fooled many people twice. They have proven beyond a reasonable doubt that they are unable to maintain and grow a AAA mmo. If you want a textbook example in a business school about how NOT to run a business, SOE undoubtably has its own chapter. Add in Vanguard's disaster of a launch, and you just don't have much hope of getting more subs. Sorry.
Most of you are forgetting one fundamental element of Vanguard's Launch (despite how poorly it was released)...The game wasn't finished and they knew it, but they needed the funds. They ran out of funding and had to launch early. This was stated several times in different points of views.
VG required our determination and patience, in order to make it better. Include the variables of lower sales and subscription numbers than other MMO's...this put the game into a poor state.
But look at it now...it's improved indefinitely, but still not finished. Our patience and determination, could pay off if you actually try.
We can sit here and talk about the reasons as to why it failed all day, when are you people going to wake up and acknowledge that it was our fault just as much as theirs...money is the root of all evil in the moral of this story. We could of helped them accomplish the vision brad had, and brad did have the right vision (twice). Just not enough people to help him support his vision.
That makes it our fault, and only we can change that.
I am a motivational speaker, and I've always wanted to somehow apply my skills to the video game industry.
Yes to all your questions, I simply could convince SOE to do such a thing. If I could gain a stable start towards this goal.
This is the only way it would create enough publicity and starting funds to breed more and new life back into VG.
Again I ask, you could get soe to do what?
Once your plan has achieved the goals you set out to do, what will be the state of vanguard, the development team and soe as a whole?
Are you going to turn vanguard into their most successful game as you suggest in this thread? Will soe be forced to add new servers to meet the demand of new players? Will soe start developing expansions for the game?
What exactly are you going to accomplish?
I can think of several other ways that could generate publicity, funds and gaining new life back into the game. Most of which is business 101 type stuff that doesn't rely on a motivational speaker tugging the heart strings of players to donate money to a failed project that has been mismanaged by a company. So there are plenty of other ways to achieve the same goals and the parent company has shown they are not interested in such efforts.
Dude, I'm not trying to change the entire game of Vanguard, into the best MMO in the world. It already is...
I'm simply trying to turn it's negative curve, into a positive curve. I am persistent and determined.
Blame SOE All day, with your attitude, I can see why it's a goal that will take some rather inspirational individuals.
Most of you are forgetting one fundamental element of Vanguard's Launch (despite how poorly it was released)...The game wasn't finished and they knew it, but they needed the funds. They ran out of funding and had to launch early. This was stated several times in different points of views.
VG required our determination and patience, in order to make it better. Include the variables of lower sales and subscription numbers than other MMO's...this put the game into a poor state.
But look at it now...it's improved indefinitely, but still not finished. Our patience and determination, could pay off if you actually try.
We can sit here and talk about the reasons as to why it failed all day, when are you people going to wake up and acknowledge that it was our fault just as much as theirs...money is the root of all evil in the moral of this story. We could of helped them accomplish the vision brad had, and brad did have the right vision (twice). Just not enough people to help him support his vision.
That makes it our fault, and only we can change that.
So it's our fault for not paying for a service we ourselves have determined not to be worth our shinny pennies? Christ man wake the fuck up and get off the high chair. The developers failed to deliver, no one in their right mind would pay a developer to improve a game they have no interest in playing.
I say if you are an MMO fan forget this game, make it shut down. We need to tell developers as the consumers we are we will not pay to play their Beta's. (Yes I know VG is not a Beta anymore, but it launched as one)
Most of you are forgetting one fundamental element of Vanguard's Launch (despite how poorly it was released)...The game wasn't finished and they knew it, but they needed the funds. They ran out of funding and had to launch early. This was stated several times in different points of views.
VG required our determination and patience, in order to make it better. Include the variables of lower sales and subscription numbers than other MMO's...this put the game into a poor state.
But look at it now...it's improved indefinitely, but still not finished. Our patience and determination, could pay off if you actually try.
We can sit here and talk about the reasons as to why it failed all day, when are you people going to wake up and acknowledge that it was our fault just as much as theirs...money is the root of all evil in the moral of this story. We could of helped them accomplish the vision brad had, and brad did have the right vision (twice). Just not enough people to help him support his vision.
That makes it our fault, and only we can change that.
Um...no. Vanguard, likeevery other MMO out there, is a business. You and I are subscribers -- i.e., customers. When a company fails, it is because of it's own short comings. Either they provided an inferior product or service, or there wasn't enough demand for their product. Either way, that's not the customers' fault or problem.
Personally, I loved my time in Vanguard, but there was no way I was going to continue investing time into a game that clearly did not have the support of its parent company. If SOE won't support the game, there's really no point in me sticking around.
Look at all the lack of inspiration, motivation, and determination. Look at how the doom and gloom simply continues....
You guys have no heart, you don't try. You don't want to try because you feel that your small fee to play a game of such a large budget/expectation, is all you should have to pay. You can go to the bar, drink with friends. Spend double this amount, and yet you still act as if you the consumer, is paying a large fee to play the cheapest form of entertainment in the world.
The game world evolved, and so did the cost. All the way down to the very effort, and wallet. You can't expect to see a good game again, until your mindset changes on the entire picture.
As a business, yes it failed. It has no support...but only we can change that, and SOE would reinvest if we would reinvest our time/money as well.
How is that hard to understand? How is it that you cannot seem to grasp the concept that we have to change how we feel and think about it? We have to continue to try, or we'll keep getting the trash they keep producing for more years to come.
Vanguard has always had a little special place in my heart and I do like it as such. But the last time I returned, about 4 months ago I believe, I felt it was lacking. Not only in population but I felt there are other games that does things better. If this would have been started 6 months after release I´d be all for it but as it now stands the ship has left for good.
I just don´t see why, purely out of fond memories, this game would deserve a resurrection when it would need so much attention. Do remember that it is a game and not a living thing.
I wish you luck in whatever you try to do but I personally don´t see the point anymore.
All statements I make is from my point of view unless stated otherwise.
Look at all the lack of inspiration, motivation, and determination. Look at how the doom and gloom simply continues....
You guys have no heart, you don't try. You don't want to try because you feel that your small fee to play a game of such a large budget/expectation, is all you should have to pay. You can go to the bar, drink with friends. Spend double this amount, and yet you still act as if you the consumer, is paying a large fee to play the cheapest form of entertainment in the world.
The game world evolved, and so did the cost. All the way down to the very effort, and wallet. You can't expect to see a good game again, until your mindset changes on the entire picture.
As a business, yes it failed. It has no support...but only we can change that, and SOE would reinvest if we would reinvest our time/money as well.
How is that hard to understand? How is it that you cannot seem to grasp the concept that we have to change how we feel and think about it? We have to continue to try, or we'll keep getting the trash they keep producing for more years to come.
You know, you start to sounds less persuading now. I tried it, it was pretty fun and the only reason I don't play is because I played EQ2 for 3 years with friends and the games are too similar to play both. It is not about money and never was.
But I agree with you, if you guys havn't tried VG or havn't since a while after launch it is really worth a free trial. It is not a bad game and have the best crafting since SWG got crapped. If you tried it after SOE fixed it and didn't like it you should of course stay away.
The entire epitome of MMORPG's is community. Everything installed, everything about it is about community. All the way down to the very cost of this genre folks.
Vanguard is the only current game with the potential in achieving that depth of love as EverQuest did. It's the only game out there which could revolutionize the MMO industry again. As a community we need to pull together! All of us have tried to go back, or tried to play for a few days on a trial...But that is an individual effort...seeking a game of fun again out of curiosity.
We all know deep down that Vanguard has this potential, which is why it's such a huge disappointment to all of us. A game truly this epic, with this amount of potential is going to require a COMMUNITY EFFORT. The entire MMO Generations effort, because it simply is a community.
We're the only generation, the only community. We can't sit and expect them to want to invest millions more in fixing all the issues....They don't know for sure if we are that serious about it. The only way we will EVER achieve this feeling of "home" again is simply by such drastic efforts as I am announcing to the public. It's the only way we'll break the lack of innovative design, and chain of failures in this entire genre.
It all begins with you, as you are the only one who can make this happen. Many of us out there know it, do you have the heart to do it is the question you gotta' ask yourself. I obviously do, or I wouldn't have made this thread, these posts. One man can't change the world, but a community of serious individuals surely can.
While I do not and will not be playing Vanguard, I do agree with the OP on one major point, the Primary point of failure for Vanguard and all recent failed mmorpg's is us the players as a whole.
the primary differences in the launch of EQ/UO/WoW etc.. compared to all later releases is that the players expectations have skyrocketed as has the cost of production to attempt to meet those expectations . If you look at those launches all of the popular releases have had major bug/stability/content issues, but during that time players were more accepting of these issues so continued to play and pay throughout these issues thus providing enough income and potential to continue to improve the game.
Post WoW the expectations of the players has gone up to the point that if it is not already on par with wow after 10 or so years of development people just drop it to go back to their old game and wait for the next new one to pick up and drop. thus never giving the new games a chance to ever reach their potential.
So unless there is a huge shift somewhere the pattern will continue, weather that's a decrease in the cost of producing AAA titles or a change in the general attitude of the players or even some company managing to release such an incredible game that it is loved by most at launch and thereafter but again the time and cost of achieving that make the chances slim, there is just so much risk in trying.
I think our best hope is a game that has a business model that relies on box sales rather than subs, where if they at least get enough initial sales they can continue development and since many of the current failures have had good initial sales it could work.
First of all, Vanguard's launch was the most bug ridden crap fest I've ever experienced. It had nothing to do with expectations, they did a terrible job. That alone setup their failure, you don't get to come back from something like that. Servers crashing every 30 min to an hour, causing all of the information to be reset was enought to drive most of the people away and for them to tell everyone else around not to go anywhere near that game. If you mess up your launch that badly, you deserve to fail. Vanguard got what it deserved.
Second, yes players tend to expect each new MMO to be innovative and stunning and have more content then an MMO that's been around for 5-10 years. But that alone does not hurt the genre, it just boosts box sales.
Lastly, the problem is MMO companies are spending 80-100 million on an MMO because they go into it EXPECTING to have millions of subscribers. These games are failing because the companies have the wrong expectations and are over-spending. They need to release with significantly smaller budgets. Provide less content at launch but make sure it is all bug free and polished, and then grow over time which will allow the player base to grow. If managed correctly every MMO can be profitable, problem is they are all jumping in head first by spending far too much pre-release and aiming too high.
If you honestly think it is the worst launch ever you are a clear example of what has changed in the MMORPG community for better or for worse, I have been in almost all AAA beta's and Launches since EQ1 and VG Was not the worst ( I personally think Anarchy Online was)
So you are saying Devs need to produce more and better at a lower cost? Curious.
You cannot release with less content.. thats silly. most games dont have enough as it is and if you release without it then people drop after they burn through it in a few days to a few weaks. then it all starts over again... even relativly bug free if the content is not there the people leave even high end content and then again you do not have enough to continue development.
Until SOE puts some money into vanguard and shows they want it to succeed i'm not giving it one cent. Vanguard is dead, soe treats it as dead and there's no guarantee if they get even 100k subscribers its going to have any life put back into it.
Until SOE puts some money into vanguard and shows they want it to succeed i'm not giving it one cent. Vanguard is dead, soe treats it as dead and there's no guarantee if they get even 100k subscribers its going to have any life put back into it.
Sorry but vanguard is a lost cause.
You have to realize, they're a large corporation. They aren't going to do such a thing, and they would definitely put money back into a game with 100k+ Subscribers.
1.5 Million a Month for just 100k Subscribers at $15/month. That's a lot of money, and a brilliant start to achieve a small development team. It could only work into a positive from there...
Put your disgusts aside, we all are disgusted/ashamed/disappointed with VG's success...Trust me.
Community bro, community! Group/Team Effort! Community Effort!-
With all due respect OP, put the pipe down. No one's going to donate anything to a buggy, unfinished steaming pile AKA Vanguard. The game was crap at launch, right out of the gate and this horrid launch was the biggest part of the game's failure. VG simply never recovered. I like many others here waited with bated breath for VG, loved the classes, loved the ideas, loved the potential. The game very simply put DID NOT DELIVER on it's promises. As a consumer I do have a right to expect a decent product, its not my fault if the developers failed to deliver. Money doesn't grow on trees buddy, we live in a capitalist society where the best rises to the top and the worst sink. VG Sank. Correct: it TANKED. I dont have money to burn supporting a failed product.
Comments
You can disagree all you want, but the fact of the matter is.
SOE won't pass up on it's biggest business model. This game is truly their best shot at the wealth they seek, but since they're not looking at long term effect and simply only looking at the immediate effect. This game will never get the life it needs.
If they're cutting staff, then you can see why...since I can see how poorly they've handled the purchase of VG. Poorly managed, as always.
While I understand your point of view, you also have to understand. That even as already paying customers, sometimes we still have to offer constructive assistance in order to get better service. Even if it costs more.
SOE will follow the money, and plus I already had the idea of legal documents if this did ever happen, and SOE took the donation money. As it cannot be spent outside of VG.
Vanguard remains one of my favorite MMO's, but just like everyone else that left the game I felt like it lost its luster at endgame.
I guess the latest merges didn't help boost the population? Last time I checked in I was ready for some fun but there was no one to group with. Then I remembered when Vanguard first came out there was hardly anyone to group with either. From my recollection nobody could run the game on their computer because of the graphics load.
I don't think there is a way to fix the population. I am playing another game now with population issues - PotBS. Everyone there knows the game would be much more fun worth more population, but unfortunately it keeps shrinking.
The only one who can restore population to Vanguard are the owners. If they do not want to spend any more money on marketing or development then it is guaranteed that VG will remain a cult favorite, no more.
Hmm, I haven't had problems with grouping lately, granted it's not instant but it doesn't ever take more than 10-20 minutes to get something going. What time of day and what day did you try?
I thank that SOE is just keeping the game around till EQ next. They are I believe, going to make EQ next like VG and then close VG and usher the players over in to it. They never did like another game feeling more like EQ, and it not being made by them.
I should add that this is more my feeling/fantasy (with a lot of hope mixed in) then based on any fact (done FACTS just get in the way).
Do you really think handing soe a pile of money is going to somehow change their ability to manage this game or alter their future plans for the mmo space? Even 10,000 players in the next year will not even put VGs subscriber base close to what it previously was. You are still talking about a 1 server game here.
While I agree VG is the best game soe has in their current stable, you are sorely wrong about it being their best chance for huge success. Soe isn't going to pull developers off DCU, The Agency or EQNext to work on this failed project. It just is not going to happen and all you are going to do is hand over a pile of money as a reward for failure.
Have you ever heard the term Throwing good money after bad?
Lets just say you do manage to get a pile of new players, a pile of money and some legal document. What do you think soe is going to do? Do you think they will suddenly see the potential in this game and if that is the case what the hell were they doing these last 3 years?
Keep in mind soe is a company that is aiming for subscriber numbers in the area of millions. Smed thinks they can make a game that will get 20 million players, no joke he said that. I am genuinely curious as to what you think your project will accomplish. What goals and expectations have you set and what do you think will be achieved?
Other than making a new account to beg for money, time and faith from people, what is your plan?
I am a motivational speaker, and I've always wanted to somehow apply my skills to the video game industry.
Yes to all your questions, I simply could convince SOE to do such a thing. If I could gain a stable start towards this goal.
This is the only way it would create enough publicity and starting funds to breed more and new life back into VG.
While I do not and will not be playing Vanguard, I do agree with the OP on one major point, the Primary point of failure for Vanguard and all recent failed mmorpg's is us the players as a whole.
the primary differences in the launch of EQ/UO/WoW etc.. compared to all later releases is that the players expectations have skyrocketed as has the cost of production to attempt to meet those expectations . If you look at those launches all of the popular releases have had major bug/stability/content issues, but during that time players were more accepting of these issues so continued to play and pay throughout these issues thus providing enough income and potential to continue to improve the game.
Post WoW the expectations of the players has gone up to the point that if it is not already on par with wow after 10 or so years of development people just drop it to go back to their old game and wait for the next new one to pick up and drop. thus never giving the new games a chance to ever reach their potential.
So unless there is a huge shift somewhere the pattern will continue, weather that's a decrease in the cost of producing AAA titles or a change in the general attitude of the players or even some company managing to release such an incredible game that it is loved by most at launch and thereafter but again the time and cost of achieving that make the chances slim, there is just so much risk in trying.
I think our best hope is a game that has a business model that relies on box sales rather than subs, where if they at least get enough initial sales they can continue development and since many of the current failures have had good initial sales it could work.
First of all, Vanguard's launch was the most bug ridden crap fest I've ever experienced. It had nothing to do with expectations, they did a terrible job. That alone setup their failure, you don't get to come back from something like that. Servers crashing every 30 min to an hour, causing all of the information to be reset was enought to drive most of the people away and for them to tell everyone else around not to go anywhere near that game. If you mess up your launch that badly, you deserve to fail. Vanguard got what it deserved.
Second, yes players tend to expect each new MMO to be innovative and stunning and have more content then an MMO that's been around for 5-10 years. But that alone does not hurt the genre, it just boosts box sales.
Lastly, the problem is MMO companies are spending 80-100 million on an MMO because they go into it EXPECTING to have millions of subscribers. These games are failing because the companies have the wrong expectations and are over-spending. They need to release with significantly smaller budgets. Provide less content at launch but make sure it is all bug free and polished, and then grow over time which will allow the player base to grow. If managed correctly every MMO can be profitable, problem is they are all jumping in head first by spending far too much pre-release and aiming too high.
Again I ask, you could get soe to do what?
Once your plan has achieved the goals you set out to do, what will be the state of vanguard, the development team and soe as a whole?
Are you going to turn vanguard into their most successful game as you suggest in this thread? Will soe be forced to add new servers to meet the demand of new players? Will soe start developing expansions for the game?
What exactly are you going to accomplish?
I can think of several other ways that could generate publicity, funds and gaining new life back into the game. Most of which is business 101 type stuff that doesn't rely on a motivational speaker tugging the heart strings of players to donate money to a failed project that has been mismanaged by a company. So there are plenty of other ways to achieve the same goals and the parent company has shown they are not interested in such efforts.
No question VG is a very goodgame,it is the players thta let Sigil down.Sigil tried to give people a beter version of EQ2 and were let down,so instead we have a lot of weak efforts out there by developers.
You are correct in saying that people would have stuck by this game it would be huge.No matter how bad anyone thinks this game was at alunch it was still 300+% better than Eve was at launch ,yet their fanbase stuck by that game for 7 years.
Still to this day,there is not one single game that can lay claim to a better effort than what went into VG.Everything i have seen lately is incredible cheap effort,and i don't care about budget anymore,spending a ton on voice actors and hiring outside contracts for music/sound is not the entire game.
There is without question a LOT more than meets the eye ,when comes to attracting players,all you have to do is wake up and look at millions playing Farmvilles and all the other low budget crap out there,nope it has nothing to do with quality ,when comes to player base.Unfortunately for Vanguard and Sigil it didn't have tha taura of mistique or that marketing firm to push it across the airwaves,it just never had a chance.
I have this firm belief that if Blizzard had of released this EXACT same game instead of Wow and used the same marketing and hype it would have had the 10+ million instead of Wow,for reasons beyond the quality of the game.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Before the game launched my brother and I were excited to try this game, however at the time he was the only one with a system capable of running the game decently so he was the only one to buy it for release. I vividly remember the horror of watching my brother try to play the game launch day... needless to say within hours the game was uninstalled and shelved, which is where it belong even to this day.
Was it pretty? Yes, but to me performance + gameplay always comes first and the game clearly failed in that regard. Launching a bugged game that ran as though even the best of machines were run by hamsters in a wheel and having little to no content is the worst choice any MMO can make, like someone said... we NEVER forget.
Want to know why AoC still suffers even though it's a decent game these days? The poor launch, same applies to this game no matter what you may say. All I know of this game these days is that there is a very small elitist player-base at max level... other than that finding groups for earlier level content is near impossible.
Wake up and smell the roses, move on from the trash game and find something new to play.
Full Sail University - Game Design
This is a classic example of people getting so emotionally attached to a game they start blaming the failure of the game on consumers.
The OP has even suggested a donation box of all things.
We are not investors. We are not employed by the company. We have absolutely no responsibility for the failures of this game due to bad code, bad content decisions or bad design. People tried to support the game. SOE couldn't save it with the meager support. End of story.
The consumers were never consulted on what direction the game should head before or after launch. With guys like the OP running around I don't think consumers should be consulted, either.
It's the whole fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me deal. SOE has fooled many people twice. They have proven beyond a reasonable doubt that they are unable to maintain and grow a AAA mmo. If you want a textbook example in a business school about how NOT to run a business, SOE undoubtably has its own chapter. Add in Vanguard's disaster of a launch, and you just don't have much hope of getting more subs. Sorry.
Most of you are forgetting one fundamental element of Vanguard's Launch (despite how poorly it was released)...The game wasn't finished and they knew it, but they needed the funds. They ran out of funding and had to launch early. This was stated several times in different points of views.
VG required our determination and patience, in order to make it better. Include the variables of lower sales and subscription numbers than other MMO's...this put the game into a poor state.
But look at it now...it's improved indefinitely, but still not finished. Our patience and determination, could pay off if you actually try.
We can sit here and talk about the reasons as to why it failed all day, when are you people going to wake up and acknowledge that it was our fault just as much as theirs...money is the root of all evil in the moral of this story. We could of helped them accomplish the vision brad had, and brad did have the right vision (twice). Just not enough people to help him support his vision.
That makes it our fault, and only we can change that.
Dude, I'm not trying to change the entire game of Vanguard, into the best MMO in the world. It already is...
I'm simply trying to turn it's negative curve, into a positive curve. I am persistent and determined.
Blame SOE All day, with your attitude, I can see why it's a goal that will take some rather inspirational individuals.
So it's our fault for not paying for a service we ourselves have determined not to be worth our shinny pennies? Christ man wake the fuck up and get off the high chair. The developers failed to deliver, no one in their right mind would pay a developer to improve a game they have no interest in playing.
I say if you are an MMO fan forget this game, make it shut down. We need to tell developers as the consumers we are we will not pay to play their Beta's. (Yes I know VG is not a Beta anymore, but it launched as one)
Full Sail University - Game Design
Um...no. Vanguard, likeevery other MMO out there, is a business. You and I are subscribers -- i.e., customers. When a company fails, it is because of it's own short comings. Either they provided an inferior product or service, or there wasn't enough demand for their product. Either way, that's not the customers' fault or problem.
Personally, I loved my time in Vanguard, but there was no way I was going to continue investing time into a game that clearly did not have the support of its parent company. If SOE won't support the game, there's really no point in me sticking around.
Look at all the lack of inspiration, motivation, and determination. Look at how the doom and gloom simply continues....
You guys have no heart, you don't try. You don't want to try because you feel that your small fee to play a game of such a large budget/expectation, is all you should have to pay. You can go to the bar, drink with friends. Spend double this amount, and yet you still act as if you the consumer, is paying a large fee to play the cheapest form of entertainment in the world.
The game world evolved, and so did the cost. All the way down to the very effort, and wallet. You can't expect to see a good game again, until your mindset changes on the entire picture.
As a business, yes it failed. It has no support...but only we can change that, and SOE would reinvest if we would reinvest our time/money as well.
How is that hard to understand? How is it that you cannot seem to grasp the concept that we have to change how we feel and think about it? We have to continue to try, or we'll keep getting the trash they keep producing for more years to come.
Vanguard has always had a little special place in my heart and I do like it as such. But the last time I returned, about 4 months ago I believe, I felt it was lacking. Not only in population but I felt there are other games that does things better. If this would have been started 6 months after release I´d be all for it but as it now stands the ship has left for good.
I just don´t see why, purely out of fond memories, this game would deserve a resurrection when it would need so much attention. Do remember that it is a game and not a living thing.
I wish you luck in whatever you try to do but I personally don´t see the point anymore.
All statements I make is from my point of view unless stated otherwise.
You know, you start to sounds less persuading now. I tried it, it was pretty fun and the only reason I don't play is because I played EQ2 for 3 years with friends and the games are too similar to play both. It is not about money and never was.
But I agree with you, if you guys havn't tried VG or havn't since a while after launch it is really worth a free trial. It is not a bad game and have the best crafting since SWG got crapped. If you tried it after SOE fixed it and didn't like it you should of course stay away.
The entire epitome of MMORPG's is community. Everything installed, everything about it is about community. All the way down to the very cost of this genre folks.
Vanguard is the only current game with the potential in achieving that depth of love as EverQuest did. It's the only game out there which could revolutionize the MMO industry again. As a community we need to pull together! All of us have tried to go back, or tried to play for a few days on a trial...But that is an individual effort...seeking a game of fun again out of curiosity.
We all know deep down that Vanguard has this potential, which is why it's such a huge disappointment to all of us. A game truly this epic, with this amount of potential is going to require a COMMUNITY EFFORT. The entire MMO Generations effort, because it simply is a community.
We're the only generation, the only community. We can't sit and expect them to want to invest millions more in fixing all the issues....They don't know for sure if we are that serious about it. The only way we will EVER achieve this feeling of "home" again is simply by such drastic efforts as I am announcing to the public. It's the only way we'll break the lack of innovative design, and chain of failures in this entire genre.
It all begins with you, as you are the only one who can make this happen. Many of us out there know it, do you have the heart to do it is the question you gotta' ask yourself. I obviously do, or I wouldn't have made this thread, these posts. One man can't change the world, but a community of serious individuals surely can.
If you honestly think it is the worst launch ever you are a clear example of what has changed in the MMORPG community for better or for worse, I have been in almost all AAA beta's and Launches since EQ1 and VG Was not the worst ( I personally think Anarchy Online was)
So you are saying Devs need to produce more and better at a lower cost? Curious.
You cannot release with less content.. thats silly. most games dont have enough as it is and if you release without it then people drop after they burn through it in a few days to a few weaks. then it all starts over again... even relativly bug free if the content is not there the people leave even high end content and then again you do not have enough to continue development.
ya know what? no.
Until SOE puts some money into vanguard and shows they want it to succeed i'm not giving it one cent. Vanguard is dead, soe treats it as dead and there's no guarantee if they get even 100k subscribers its going to have any life put back into it.
Sorry but vanguard is a lost cause.
You have to realize, they're a large corporation. They aren't going to do such a thing, and they would definitely put money back into a game with 100k+ Subscribers.
1.5 Million a Month for just 100k Subscribers at $15/month. That's a lot of money, and a brilliant start to achieve a small development team. It could only work into a positive from there...
Put your disgusts aside, we all are disgusted/ashamed/disappointed with VG's success...Trust me.
Community bro, community! Group/Team Effort! Community Effort!-
With all due respect OP, put the pipe down. No one's going to donate anything to a buggy, unfinished steaming pile AKA Vanguard. The game was crap at launch, right out of the gate and this horrid launch was the biggest part of the game's failure. VG simply never recovered. I like many others here waited with bated breath for VG, loved the classes, loved the ideas, loved the potential. The game very simply put DID NOT DELIVER on it's promises. As a consumer I do have a right to expect a decent product, its not my fault if the developers failed to deliver. Money doesn't grow on trees buddy, we live in a capitalist society where the best rises to the top and the worst sink. VG Sank. Correct: it TANKED. I dont have money to burn supporting a failed product.
Current Games: WOW, EVE Online