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The FFXIV identiy crisis
geldonyetich
Member Posts: 1,340
About maybe 100 hours in to the game at this point. When Open Beta ends, It'll take my 8th Gladiator, 7th Pugilst, 4th Marauder, 7th Lancer, 9th Archer, 4th Conjuror, 7th Thaumautage, 6th Carpenter, 5th Blacksmith, 4th Armorsmith, 1st Leathercrafter, 10th Weaver, 2nd alchemist, 5th culinarian, 8th miner, 8th Botonist, and 7th fisher with it. Physical level 19. (Not counting whatever else happens over the next few days before the wipe... whew, that's a mouthful.)
I'm begining to think this game has an identity crisis. The kind where it tries to please all audiences and ends up pleasing none. Lets take the following facts into consideration:
There's a fatigue system in the game where experience slows and eventually stops if you gain too much ranks in one class over a weekly period. This is to facilitate casual players. However, to facilitate the core players, if you gain ranks in other classes the fatigue disappears quicker. I've never encountreed fatige, probably because I never stuck to one rank long enough.
In Final Fantasy XI, you would get slim to no xp for killing stuff a level or two below you. In FFXIV, the deviation seems to be considerably looser, I can make reasonable xp killing stuff that conned blue a good 3-5 ranks below me. Further, unlike FFXIV, class lines are very fuzzy, you can equip a wide variation of abilities on the same character. Soloing is very possible, it seems the basis of combat is very casual friendly, to the point where Guildleves are often rather boringly easily - seems to matter more based off of the foe you're fighting rather than the stars you set it at.
The crafting system is extremely punishing, eating up shards/crystals and resources like mad, wit ha massive random deviation that causes you to curse the crafting gods amongst The Twelve. Definately a hardcore mechanic, but the spoils of crafting are mandatory to all audiences because it's a player-driven economy.
So, in the end, I'm rather confused. I thought FFXIV, like FFXI, was going to be a game that more or less caters to core players like few other modern MMORPGs do. However, the deeper I get into it, the more it seems to me that it's been heavily watered down by casual influences. And yet, there's certian aspects such as crafting and equipment wear that make me wonder if it's a core game again. Is this going to end up being a game that tried to please all auidences and ends up pleasing none?
Comments
I only see fatigue hurting you if you do the same thing all day. It will be adjusted to allow a little more one class play. I don't know how long it will take, but things will balance out due to feedback within the first year. They will lose some subscribers during the birth pangs. The game should have had beta extended by 3-6 months to lessen beginning woes.
All in all, If you can play through the beginnings, or wait awhile to purchase. The game will get loads more balanced. FFXI at launch compared to today. Shows how much a game can change.
In Abyssea areas you can level so fast, too fast imo lol.
I'd say the people that will play have already "Bought in" to the concept that FFXIV has brought to the table.
While having multiple classes per character might be seen as a boon(especially with extra character slots costing extra?) it seems almost necessary to play multiple roles. Not everyone wants to harvest or craft, but those that play this game probably will.
As far as combat, I think higher level combat will be more difficult. Consider the mobs you've faced already. Marmets, rats, beetles, etc are rather basic dont do much. Roselings, puks, etc have more special attacks and specific stuff that can change the fight. Leves over level 10 have mobs that run away and call for friends.
As I stated in my "Crafting Sucks" thread, crafting is a crap shoot. With so much gil on the line with each craft, it should be a lot less random and a lot more skill based. I lost 6600 gil in one failed craft, and that was only 1/5th of the final product.
Drop the next-gen marketing and people will argue if the game itself has merit.
not a big fan of "x" % based crafting. its one of the most retarded system ever created.
this is Aion crafting - all over again. with fanbois calling out players who dislike the crafting system, but later they themselves ended up emo/raging quit because they've blown millions of ingame money for the item that didn't happen.
this system promotes, endless farming for mats, and for those rich lazy players will end up using RMT for gill.
Trying to please everybody? I would say that it's the exact opposite of just that. There's no PvP, the UI is anything but the norm these days and there is a very limited quest system. I'd say that scares away at least half of all the MMORPG players these days.
I'm not a firm believer of the game myself, but this has to be one of the few games that does NOT target everybody.
I don't think it's so much of an identity crisis as a culturally one. Ultimately the game has to cater to both American and Japanese players; who as we know enjoy completely different styles of game play.
American gamers are used to a more quest-based, easy to understand, pick up and play module; while Japanese Gamers enjoy a more complex story-driven world with emphasis on community and interaction between other players.
Games that have to focus on two radically different cultures tend to feel lacking because of this. Americans (Not all Americans, mind you) Tend to feel things should be made "For us" and tend to feel that everything that isn't is inferior, not worth understanding, or just simply too time consuming to get involved with. I can't speak for the Japanese peoples, but their rich; vibrant culture focused on family values and strict work-ethic are evident in their games as well.
That's just my two-cents. I'm just a wee fox after all =P
~Miles "Tails" Prower out! Catch me if you can!
Come Join us at www.globalequestria.com - Meet other fans of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic!
Funny how everything you just said are all speculations, and really, this crafting system is a sweet dream compared to other games. Have you experienced Lineage 2 crafting for example? Now that's a fucking nightmare.
We dont know much about crafting system yet.. Consider that in FFXI, the day of the week influence the chance of success/failure/critic based on the element of the crystal used for the craft. Moon also influence the chance of success/failure. (Its even rumored that the the direction you are facing when crafting has an influence as there is an element assigned to each direction).
In FFXI, if you have the correct craft level and try to craft at the right time, chance of failure are pretty low. What is expensive is to level a craft. Not what you may lose from failed craft.
Good points, but it seems the OP is contrasting FFXI vs. FFXIV, and as plenty of people know, the cross-culture thing worked just fine for a lot of folks. In fact, some of my best times in XI were with Japanese parties where I was the only American, and held entire conversations with the translator while at the same time participating in some of the most stream-lined and effecient groups I ever participated in while playing that game. The art style agreed with me just fine, and the drawn-out travel times, quest lines, and other such things that some might find tedious/boring, but did require that work-ethic you mention, as well as solid teamwork and - to a degree - family value of sticking with your teammates to accomplish things was what made FFXI such a special experience.
I think realistically that it's less of a culture clash given the above, and how many enjoyed XI's systems and gameplay which were originally Japan-based, and the game was clearly not designed with westerners in mind. FFXIV has gone wrong somewhere along the way and has gotten itself confused based on what I've read and seen, but just where is indeed the question. That said, OP has a good point in that it has definitely opened its arms too wide and rather than welcoming more in, will let slip far more due to its attempt at a broader reach.
I'm still just boggled at the entire scenario because with 8 years of success (and who knows how much money from FFXI alone), you'd think SE would've been more capable than they've proven to be thus far. Make no mistake about it; all people have to go on is open beta just yet - and I'm still crossing my fingers for some big changes at release - but if there's anything people should be able to agree on it's that the open beta has definitely not helped XIV's image so far.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde
I can has a sandbox?
Also I need to try crafting on FFXIV, I can be a real craft-a-holic when I want to be.
Is there a limit on how many crafting classes you can take to the cap? Or could you become an Evil Crafting Overlord with everything lvl 100, smelting together Adaman and Orichalcum and rosewood lumber and pinches of firesand and silk cloth making The Eternally Comfortable Rocket Launching Bed of The Twelve (requires 100 alchemy, 100 goldsmithing, 100 woodworking, 100 cloth, and 100 tailoring).
Taru-Gallante-Blood elf-Elysean-Kelari-Crime Fighting-Imperial Agent
I don't agree with the whole comment of "their rich; vibrant culture focused on family values and strict work-ethic are evident in their games as well." Especially considering Japan has quite a lot of weirdos out there wanting to marry anime chicks on their Nintendo DS. And they have had psychologists speak about the negative aspects of video games in quite a different aspect than what we deal with in the States. Over here it's violence. Over there it's wanting to marry fictitious characters. I do believe their population is in quite a decline due to much different issues than the population decline in America. We are struggling here, the world is uglier. They are obsessed with video game chicks and are not breeding. Otaku ftl.
But let's disregard all that since neither of us are experts on Japan and it's culture. And no doubt, we're probably both wrong and just making biased assumptions based on what little info we have gathered. The fact is, and yes, I dare say fact.. that what can be accomplished in Japanese mmorpgs (FFXI and potentially FFXIV) require no doubt, about the same amount of personal time invested. This is excluding RMT, from both sides. Westerners don't mind a long road to perfection, granted there are milestones along the way to make them feel the time they've invested in A VIDEO GAME are worth it. We like RP, we like PVP, we like PVE too. We're quite an eclectic bunch. Any time spent on forums reading bitchfest posts will show you that. We are no doubt much more varied than say Korean gamers. We enjoy spending our leisure time on these games. Yet, we do actually do other things in life to, despite what anyone might argue. I don't remember seeing in America where we were being forced to pay by the hour and not by month for a game subscription. We have a grip on reality and video games. We can differentiate the two. We just like to feel we've accomplished something after spending a few hours in a video game. Which is quite obvious from the many reviews that there isn't much of a sense of accomplishment in FFXIV.
It's not because we're American, it's not because we're FF haters, it's not because we're trolls. It's because honestly honest fucking honest people have said... This game doesn't work for me. Yes this is a console game aimed at a Japanese audience but guess what... we're Americans here. Most of us anyway. We have experienced Korean grinders and Russian copy-cat WoW's with item malls. We've seen Americans copying great games and failing miserably. The issue isn't with what type of game this is anymore. I think the issue is that Square Enix thinks they can market this game to us. Obviously from these boards it will be a dud over here. I was a big advocate for this game but even I'm going to cancel my pre-order. There are too many games coming up that are more tailored to the Western audience than this game. Most will look past this. Sure, they'll give the open beta a play through (and it may infact not be the whole game, but guess what Squuenix, this ain't Japan baby, you got competition) and most will bypass it.
Bah, you really shouldn't let the actions of a few individuals in which make up the total of maybe 1 out of every million members of a society govern your perspective on them. Granted, it's really not too surprising you've have less video-game inspired violence (which has at least as many scientific studies disproving is even possible as there are possible, by the way) than you would marrying anime chicks on the grounds that the dating sim genre is a hell of a lot more common over there. When you've got 2D girls designed, by committee, to be as hot as possible in order to assure sales, it's only natural some people would be so smitten that the line between reality and fantasy is blurred.
Aside from these odd cases, Japan really is a hell of a lot more family focused than we are here in the states, believe it. They're so family-focused, they've got salaryman working themselves to death because they're that afraid of being shunned by their families. A lot of the hentai crap we see doesn't exist because Japan is more perverted: quite the opposite, it exists because Japan is that much more sexually repressed in daily life. A lot of people are getting screwed up ideas that that kind of stuff is acceptable over there when on the contrary it's even more shunned than it is in the states.
Anywho, not to derail my own thread too badly, the topic here isn't "Japanese perversion: WTF," the topic here is, "FFXIV doesn't seem to know if it's a casual game or a core game, and that may end up costing it both audiences."
Anywho, not to derail your own topic that you derailed but... there were other things in my reply than that one paragraph you made into 3.
Comparing or even contrasting this game to FFXI seems to be the debate most people seem to be experienced in. There are some good and bad points brought up about this and they've all been covered to death in one way or another so I won't go into it myself. Suffice it to say, I think it's perfectly healthy and good for the game to compare it to past works. Improve upon the old while giving us something new. I think FF XIV is doing a great job in this respect. Whether or not they pull it off remains to be seen.
~Miles "Tails" Prower out! Catch me if you can!
Come Join us at www.globalequestria.com - Meet other fans of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic!
I'm sorry to severely derail this thread...
After my bachelors in Japanese and M.A. in Education. I moved to Japan to work. I've been here 3 years now.
In all my experiences US anime fans have nearly zero experience with actual Japanese culture. I've seen huge populations of anime kids fail out of Japanese or resent Japan after coming here because they are so shocked to find how different life is. Anime is a complete misrepresentation of social values. Women aren't subservient shy sex idols. I hate to burst your bubbles, but robots and pink haired schoolgirls are not in every karate dojo here lol
FF is a pretty huge IP here in Japan and the core audience they want is young PS3 owners. The PC just is not a central piece of entertainment technology for most people. I'm pretty surprised they are even releasing this title on the PC. But considering the console-port feel, its just to satisfy the "hardcore" PC gamers of Japan who, for a majority, play in PC cafe's.
I doubt SE even thought for a second the cultural dynamics of gaming when they were making the game. They just made what they wanted to make. But, for those of you guys living in the US, you are at their will. If you don't like the fact they are catering to the PS3 audience and make huge concession to the PC version, I guess you'll have to try something else
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
They stated all along they were trying to bring in more casual people. Too many casual people complained about the game being "too hard", "too grindy", "too w/e" unlike WoW, EQ2, LOTRO, WAR and every other regular mmo on the market that they were used to playing. Apparantly SE agreed with some of them and changed several things.
Most of us past FFXI players really would have been happy with FFXI-2 and would have paid handsomely for it. SE decided that wasn't a big enough audience so it added the surplus and other things for this newer version.
I think that after 1 year when most of the casuals who were complaining about FFXI before leave for games like GW2, Tera, SWTOR, DC Online and whatever else.. SE will realize their mistake and put in more of the usual type things.
Or not, in which case some of the former FFXI players will move onto newer games as well, not liking the watered down version.
"TO MICHAEL!"
There sure was, but I actually was late for a dinner engagement so I wasn't able to get to them at the time. The 3 paragraphs I wrote still applied to the 1 I had time to read, though, so I don't see why you're complaining except you're perhaps proud of what you wrote and really wanted some vindication it's been read.
Well, okay, I can't begrudge you that.... reading the rest of what you wrote to the best my abilities (I've a bit of a sinus headache lately and your paragraphs are a tad overly meaty and didn't stick to the same topic as paragraphs should) it seems what you were saying is along the lines of, "our cultures are too different to enjoy this Eastern-made game."
Actually, while that's a fair enough assessment for many eastern-made MMORPGs, I think I'd have to disagree with that in this case. Final Fantasy is an international brand, not strictly targetted towards Eastern players any more than Pokemon is. I've played western-targetting MMORPGs (Everquest, WoW), I've played eastern-targetting MMORPGs (Aion, Lineage 2), you can definately tell when social mechanics exceed individuality. I'd say FFXIV sits somewhere in the middle, as did FFXI (which, for all its talk over group dependency, was really no more group dependant the game it was based on: the original, western-made, Everquest.).
Now that I've specifically addressed what you wrote, perhaps you'd do me the same favor. You see, the "identity crisis" I was basing this topic on was not a cultural difference (although it's interesting to see the thread turning in that direction), so much as a difference in genre. FFXI was largely a game to be appreciated by core gamers, it predated World of Warcraft, it was one of the few EverQuest clones that managed to take what EverQuest did and do it right before deviating in its own direction. Now, since World of Warcraft was absolutely ridiculously successful, everybody's cloning World of Warcraft, the trend seems to have turned to being casual friendly under the assertion that casual friendliness was the reason why WoW was head-and-shoulders above the competition.
(If you want to be really current on that, foremost developers have stopped trying to clone World of Warcraft because those efforts have always failed - see Warhammer Online for a foremost example. The conclusion is that nobody can be better at being World of Warcraft than World of Warcraft, it's a fool's errand to try, and that the game's popularity might have had a lot more to do with the Blizzard brand name and being in the right place at the right time than any merit to any game mechanic you might borrow form it (up to an including the whole thing to its finest details). Consequently, anyone who recommends cloning World of Warcraft is setting someone up for failure.)
With the shift to casual-friendliness in MMORPGs, FFXIV seems to be torn. On one hand, they have their core audience in FFXI. On the other hand, they have a potential casual audience to entice, that same audience that has been telling them for years that FFXI is too hard for them to access. Looking down the original laundry list of what I wrote in my original post here, it's looking a lot like they're trying to please both audiences and consequently are in danger of pleasing neither. This is a real bother to FFXI players because it seems like here was a company that got it, that realized that being casual friendly wasn't necessary if there's enough of a niche to please.
I'm somewhat vindicated to see some agree that this does seem to be happening. However, maybe I shouldn't be too surprised, maybe this cultural deviation to the topic is because what I brought up was too obviously true.
im not sure, but i am going to attempt to invent the toaster and sliced bread in game so i can haz butta toast.