I was really interested in this game but when they started to reveal the playable races i thought to myself these are all to human as a matter a fact they almost looked like simply reskinned human models with bits stuck on.
I was hoping to be able to play as a droid or some funky looking alien my interest in this game has dropped.The race choices do not appeal to me at all. The reasson they have given for only playing human like races is a total cop out to me.
Lol I know... I mean, Bioware.. go and watch Monsters Inc
This is exactly right, and a problem with some MMO's in development. A bigger problem, is many of the newer MMO players came from single player RPG's and do not realize the potential of an MMO world.
Back in the day, when I would log into early EQ1 (or DAOC or Shadowbane), the "story" was really what the other players were up to (were they forming a group or raid, was the guild planning something, were the Shadowbane folks getting ready to raid or defend a town). Spontaneous dynamic stuff driven by the player base itself, was the story.
But these newer MMO players, many of them, think they are actors standing around a movie set and waiting for their next cue. (Hint: Get some initiative, People!) An MMO is richest when it's freest.
I loved EQ for all its aspects but truth is, people were getting fed up with spare number of quests and mobgrinding.
That's why follow up MMO's like EQ2 and WoW introduced an abundant amount of quests, because that's what the majority of MMO gamers preferred. If their preference had been mob grinding and doing other stuff than quests for leveling, then that would have won out and sandbox MMO's would be the dominant subgenre in MMO's right now instead of themeparks.
Also, people didn't just want a task with barely any text, they favored background quest text with bits of lore and story in it; if that is lacking, then it's noticed too easily how most quests and tasks are basically the same 'fetch this-kill x of y' structure, and people start complaining about the quest grind. You only have to look at MMO's as Aion and the repeater quests in it, that a quest being only a task without context isn't enough.
So, we haven't suddenly magically arrived at the current state of MMORPG's: it is because already since EQ a majority of MMO gamers favored as no1 feature quests as a means to progress their character, not just free-roaming find-your-own-thing-to-do, and those quests couldn't be simple contextless tasks: no, they needed to have context, lore and story in it.
If MMO gamers hadn't favored dev-provided quests as MMO content above other things since the early MMO's as EQ onwards, then MMO companies would never have gone through the trouble of expanding upon that gameplay feature.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Guild wars 2 will make a bang just like Wow did in 2005, it will be a highly polished,very beautiful game that will bring lots on innovations to the genre.
Star Wars will be a story driven MMORPG(probably even better than Mass Effect storywise). Nothing wrong in that, its just SOMETHING else. I personally would prefer sandbox star wars games..but oh well.. i will still give Old Republic a go.
Im very happy 2011 will bring something new and polished.. last couple of years been really booring.. no wonder WoW is still so strong...
The more story, = the less mmo feeling. I expect lot of instance and individual story that all players have to go trought.
I like Bioware game, but all that story and npc talking into an mmorpg, i rather play a single player game with the same idea's.
Oh please, let us cut the " more story = less mmo feeling" BS shall we? I'm gona give you an example of "mmo feeling" in todays, and the future imho, most succesfull MMO, World of Warcraft. This is how "MMO'ish" i leveled my last two alts, a Death Knight and a enhancement shaman.
DK: finished the initiation quest line, got my T2 quality blues. got me a blood spec build from a website and then solo facerolled all the quests including the group ones up to the level cap. Wow... what an mmo feeling.
Shaman: skipped the group quests till i got 2 abilities called Shamanistic Rage and Feral Spirit. Then solo facerolled everything up to to level 80. Wow... what an mmo feeling.
And this is how the 80% levels its toons in World of Warcraft. Nowadays it has become a single player process.
Why does it always feel like everytime i read something about TOR on one of these blogs on these websites it's always bashing it or trying to downplay it? I mean, you guys wrote like 3 different articles about how much you disliked the "tunnel shooter" as a space fight.. Now this? lol
IDK it could all be in my head but i sense some resentment here.
Currently Playing: Rift + Starcraft II + Gears Of War 3 Beta
Why does it always feel like everytime i read something about TOR on one of these blogs on these websites it's always bashing it or trying to downplay it? I mean, you guys wrote like 3 different articles about how much you disliked the "tunnel shooter" as a space fight.. Now this? lol
IDK it could all be in my head but i sense some resentment here.
It does seem like every article on this site about TOR is something negative. Oh well, this is the SWG Vet lounge over here at MMORPG.com
Why does it always feel like everytime i read something about TOR on one of these blogs on these websites it's always bashing it or trying to downplay it? I mean, you guys wrote like 3 different articles about how much you disliked the "tunnel shooter" as a space fight.. Now this? lol
IDK it could all be in my head but i sense some resentment here.
No actually you are right the writer of this article is the same person to write the others I am fairly certain and yes most of his articles take a negative tone to TOR at the end of the day though I could care less because in the last paragraph he redeems himself some by stating an obvious fact. We will be getting the next four or five KOTOR games rolled into this one mmo which will still make it better than the hit or miss mmo's we get from companies like FC,Mythic,AV and others out there.
When more than half the mmo's coming out suck wouldn't one think that maybe they all suck because it's time for a change? Maybe also my sentiment is different because I refuse to take the high browed stance that mmo's are somehow different than other video games while there are factors that differentiate it from developing non mmo's that's no different than th fact that designing a sports sim isn't the same as developing an rpg.
My interest in TOR is the only reason I continue to read up on it even though a vast majority of commentary is from people who chose to complain, I won't let that bother me because at the end of the day I stand tall in the knowledge that I played the Baldurs Gate Series and KOTOR for maybe the same length of time I've played many mmo's and if this is still just a single player game in the same frame as those two but with the ability to invite folks into my single player game then that's a good game to me and will have served it's purpose.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
The more story, = the less mmo feeling. I expect lot of instance and individual story that all players have to go trought.
I like Bioware game, but all that story and npc talking into an mmorpg, i rather play a single player game with the same idea's.
Oh please, let us cut the " more story = less mmo feeling" BS shall we? I'm gona give you an example of "mmo feeling" in todays, and the future imho, most succesfull MMO, World of Warcraft. This is how "MMO'ish" i leveled my last two alts, a Death Knight and a enhancement shaman.
DK: finished the initiation quest line, got my T2 quality blues. got me a blood spec build from a website and then solo facerolled all the quests including the group ones up to the level cap. Wow... what an mmo feeling.
Shaman: skipped the group quests till i got 2 abilities called Shamanistic Rage and Feral Spirit. Then solo facerolled everything up to to level 80. Wow... what an mmo feeling.
And this is how the 80% levels its toons in World of Warcraft. Nowadays it has become a single player process.
You kind of hit the nail on the head, and it's something I noticed my first time in an mmo which happened to be SWG. All the same folks who purport to be such avid mmo'ers are just the masters of min/maxing more often than not. The only distinction I can make between my friends who game but don't play mmo's and the folks I've met who do play mmo's is the fact that mmo players pay very little to no attention to lore etc but can tell you every single thing about stats.
It would boggle mymind to prepare to head into a raid and hear all the party members recite the stats of the weapon that would be dropped by the boss, and it was like "wow you guys don't give a shit about the lore at all do you and honestly why is a sword that gives you a bonus of 0.01% such a big deal" and that was when I decided I would never be that typeof player because it reminded me too much of the traits exhibited by an addict.
Since then I've actually gone out of my way to reach max rank in any mmo I played because at that time you are literally forced to play that way whether you want to or not in many cases. Then I played LOTRO which in my opinion is an anomoly of mmo's because we generally don't cater much to a crowd that thinks like that (I wonder if that has something to do withthe fact that right now LOTRO is the most story focused mmo on the market) and more often it is about being in Tolkiens world with your friends I had multiple toons at max level there because it was always about the time you spent in the game world and who you spent it with.
What fans and those with an open mind to TOR have to remember is that even if all these die hard mmo fans are right and TOR will not be considered a success or good game by the mmo community it won't matter the game still will not fail and will still probably meet your personal expectations because the products backed by the people who bash this game are more often than not failure niche products that rarely leave a blip on the radar. While TOR may not be that persons cup of tea I can say with confidence I usually back a winner and more often than not when I don't I still enjoy myself.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
This is exactly right, and a problem with some MMO's in development. A bigger problem, is many of the newer MMO players came from single player RPG's and do not realize the potential of an MMO world.
Back in the day, when I would log into early EQ1 (or DAOC or Shadowbane), the "story" was really what the other players were up to (were they forming a group or raid, was the guild planning something, were the Shadowbane folks getting ready to raid or defend a town). Spontaneous dynamic stuff driven by the player base itself, was the story.
But these newer MMO players, many of them, think they are actors standing around a movie set and waiting for their next cue. (Hint: Get some initiative, People!) An MMO is richest when it's freest.
Man... Doesn't anyone listen to what Bioware is saying? This game is going to have Guilds.... so OBVIOUSLY your guild is going to do stuff that's NOT based around the story. Christ.... the Story aspect of the game is for your CLASS, and an ALTERNATE way of leveling. Why is everyone so hung up on the idea that the ONLY thing in the game is this "single player story". Bioware hasn't announced any details on anything else, but they've assured everyone that everything else will be there... Crafting, Exploration, PvP, Raids, Etc.
People really need to get over this whole story thing.... Let Bioware try something out! Not every MMO has to be "Stand around for 6 hours waiting for a mob to respawn" (EQ1). WHY NOT enjoy a good backstory to your Class while you're enjoying your player driven stories like Guild interactment, PvP, etc. Those aren't just going to magically disappear.. why is everyone being so Shortsighted on this.
The more story, = the less mmo feeling. I expect lot of instance and individual story that all players have to go trought.
I like Bioware game, but all that story and npc talking into an mmorpg, i rather play a single player game with the same idea's.
Oh please, let us cut the " more story = less mmo feeling" BS shall we? I'm gona give you an example of "mmo feeling" in todays, and the future imho, most succesfull MMO, World of Warcraft. This is how "MMO'ish" i leveled my last two alts, a Death Knight and a enhancement shaman.
DK: finished the initiation quest line, got my T2 quality blues. got me a blood spec build from a website and then solo facerolled all the quests including the group ones up to the level cap. Wow... what an mmo feeling.
Shaman: skipped the group quests till i got 2 abilities called Shamanistic Rage and Feral Spirit. Then solo facerolled everything up to to level 80. Wow... what an mmo feeling.
And this is how the 80% levels its toons in World of Warcraft. Nowadays it has become a single player process.
And you are 100% correct. There is NO MMO feeling in WoW... it's all about stats. I do level alot of alts in that game, but that's as far as it goes with me, I don't do any of the end game because of all the elitest a$$holes that play that game. And I'm not attached to any of my WoW characters... the only thing I can decipher between them, is which one was my first 80, my first created one... etc. That's as far as the attchment goes.
I believe that the way Bioware is making SWTOR is going to get people more into their character, and attach to them much better than any other MMO. Your character will probably mean alot more to you than just numbers when you get to the end game. I KNOW this because every other Bioware game has attached me to my character in ways no other game has before. And Bioware WILL continue this trend with SWTOR.
SWToR is an ambitiously huge game that seeks to add the missing element from most MMOs, which is story. It can't do everything at once though. OH GOD WAAHHH!!!! It also must have some limits somewhere. WWAAAAHHH!!! You don't get to play as monsters because Star Wars has always had a human or at least human-like hero. WAAAAHHHH!!!!
Seriously, after reading articles whining about how this MMO is going to be an MMO and not a space sim and now articles whining about how you don't get to play every hideous race in the Star Wars universe, but must stick to more human races, I am losing faith in this site.
Seriously, you guys are supposed to know something about MMOs. You would think that every time you hear about some sort of limitation in what is by all accounts a MASSIVE undertaking, you wouldn't rush to your computer to cry about it.
There have to be limits somewhere and keeping the hero races more human-like really is in line with the movies.
As soon as Bioware announces that there will have to be a limit to the amount of content that they can include in the game at launch, I expect another article questioning why they can't include infinite content.
Currently playing: Rift Played: SWToR, Aion,EQ, Dark Age of Camelot World of Warcraft, AoC
This is exactly right, and a problem with some MMO's in development. A bigger problem, is many of the newer MMO players came from single player RPG's and do not realize the potential of an MMO world.
Back in the day, when I would log into early EQ1 (or DAOC or Shadowbane), the "story" was really what the other players were up to (were they forming a group or raid, was the guild planning something, were the Shadowbane folks getting ready to raid or defend a town). Spontaneous dynamic stuff driven by the player base itself, was the story.
But these newer MMO players, many of them, think they are actors standing around a movie set and waiting for their next cue. (Hint: Get some initiative, People!) An MMO is richest when it's freest.
Man... Doesn't anyone listen to what Bioware is saying? This game is going to have Guilds.... so OBVIOUSLY your guild is going to do stuff that's NOT based around the story. Christ.... the Story aspect of the game is for your CLASS, and an ALTERNATE way of leveling. Why is everyone so hung up on the idea that the ONLY thing in the game is this "single player story". Bioware hasn't announced any details on anything else, but they've assured everyone that everything else will be there... Crafting, Exploration, PvP, Raids, Etc.
People really need to get over this whole story thing.... Let Bioware try something out! Not every MMO has to be "Stand around for 6 hours waiting for a mob to respawn" (EQ1). WHY NOT enjoy a good backstory to your Class while you're enjoying your player driven stories like Guild interactment, PvP, etc. Those aren't just going to magically disappear.. why is everyone being so Shortsighted on this.
Maybe Bioware and other dev studios need to get over "this whole story thing" and design worlds instead of movies.
Design a world, have consequences (i.e., death penalties), then folks will come together and make their "own stories" through their "own freely pursued adventures" and the result will be more compelling and immersive than any canned personal storyline the devs can come up with.
The best adventuring I have ever had in all my years of gaming came through teaming up with someone for mutual survival. Was very cool and almost always memorable.
But in some ways very shallow.
As I mentioned in my wall o' text, these "stories" can be rather compelling in a way that the player might feel more weight to what is going on in the moment. However, there is a certain level of nonsense that accompanies your average player when they have complete interactive freedom.
Lots of smack talking, gate hopping, back stabbing, etc. So sure, there can be some compelling game play there and I have experienced some of the more profound game play in Lineage 2 where the main game play is player vs player interaction, but beyond that there really isn't anything else. Except for what the role players come up with.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
This is exactly right, and a problem with some MMO's in development. A bigger problem, is many of the newer MMO players came from single player RPG's and do not realize the potential of an MMO world.
Back in the day, when I would log into early EQ1 (or DAOC or Shadowbane), the "story" was really what the other players were up to (were they forming a group or raid, was the guild planning something, were the Shadowbane folks getting ready to raid or defend a town). Spontaneous dynamic stuff driven by the player base itself, was the story.
But these newer MMO players, many of them, think they are actors standing around a movie set and waiting for their next cue. (Hint: Get some initiative, People!) An MMO is richest when it's freest.
Man... Doesn't anyone listen to what Bioware is saying? This game is going to have Guilds.... so OBVIOUSLY your guild is going to do stuff that's NOT based around the story. Christ.... the Story aspect of the game is for your CLASS, and an ALTERNATE way of leveling. Why is everyone so hung up on the idea that the ONLY thing in the game is this "single player story". Bioware hasn't announced any details on anything else, but they've assured everyone that everything else will be there... Crafting, Exploration, PvP, Raids, Etc.
People really need to get over this whole story thing.... Let Bioware try something out! Not every MMO has to be "Stand around for 6 hours waiting for a mob to respawn" (EQ1). WHY NOT enjoy a good backstory to your Class while you're enjoying your player driven stories like Guild interactment, PvP, etc. Those aren't just going to magically disappear.. why is everyone being so Shortsighted on this.
Maybe Bioware and other dev studios need to get over "this whole story thing" and design worlds instead of movies.
Design a world, have consequences (i.e., death penalties), then folks will come together and make their "own stories" through their "own freely pursued adventures" and the result will be more compelling and immersive than any canned personal storyline the devs can come up with.
The best adventuring I have ever had in all my years of gaming came through teaming up with someone for mutual survival. Was very cool and almost always memorable.
But in some ways very shallow.
As I mentioned in my wall o' text, these "stories" can be rather compelling in a way that the player might feel more weight to what is going on in the moment. However, there is a certain level of nonsense that accompanies your average player when they have complete interactive freedom.
Lots of smack talking, gate hopping, back stabbing, etc. So sure, there can be some compelling game play there and I have experienced some of the more profound game play in Lineage 2 where the main game play is player vs player interaction, but beyond that there really isn't anything else. Except for what the role players come up with.
What's more "shallow" than a fixed linear storyline that every character (or every character in a class) repeats ad infinitum?
Answer: The character of someone trying to suggest that mmorpgs should be deep.
This site should change it's name to mmo.com. Debating if story will hurt the game in an mmoRPG is silly. If it was an mmoaction or mmosports ok...
I think we need some clarification. As someone mentioned, "meta" stories such as overarching world events, lore, and factions are great, and truly add to an MMO.
But forced canned "personal" storylines where you are trapped in cutscenes or articially blocked off in a room until you complete some story quest that EVERYONE in the game goes through, just feels artificial and meaningless.
Ah, here''s an example, really from an FPS shooter of long ago, but it helps clarify what I mean:
Remember LucasArts "Outlaws" game? Was a Western in which the theme is your character is after some outlaws who have killed your wife, burned down your farm, and kidnapped your kid, all to exert pressure so the railroad could move in (or something like that).
Each scenario of Outlaws had you tackling a map and the enemy NPC's, but how you approached this was your own choice. You could sneak down a back alley, circle around the town, or just walk down mainstreet with guns blazing like it was "High Noon" or something.
Now, contrast this to the heavy storyline Western shooter "Desperadoes" that came out a couple of years ago. You could not walk into the town except by crossing a bridge and being stopped by an NPC for a few rounds of quest dialogue. You could not swim the river, walk around the guy, or approach the town in any other way than be interacting through that bridge scene.
Then, once you were in town, you could not enter any buildings until you went into the bar and had a scene with the bartender or gambler (forget which one it was). Heck, you could not walk up the stairs past him until you had this scene of dialogue.
The gameplay in "Desperadoes" was very controlled, very linear, and very meaningless, and this is the kind of thing I hope that MMO designers learn to avoid.
Sure, world background, world events, faction, lore and such are great. But we do not need scripts handed to us while we are all forced down the same cookiecutter path of pre-scripted cutscenes. Such gameplay just feels canned.
The best drama, IMO, is not what comes from writers, but what spontaneously erupts from players as they cooperate, step on one another's toes, save the day or pull a train (i.e., aggroed monsters).
First, who said it was ever going to be forced?
Second, people are making too big of a deal about the story aspect. Its almost the SAME exact thing as regular quest givers, except you actually get to make a choice, its fully voiced, and its viewed cinematically. In most MMOs, I find it much less immersive to stand at a "quest giver" and see 10 other people just hanging around the quest giver too. I like the idea that they instance your personal missions, in a tiny little box where only you can choose whether you want to watch and listen, whether you want to "kill the captain" and whatever other choices that the system gives you.
People who want to bypass the dialogue altogether, they can go right ahead. If they want to grind mobs, PvP, do world arcs, nothings stopping them. Adding a story people actually care about isn't a bad thing in MMOs, its just NOT something that MMOs have done before, and I find it ridiculous that so much of the people on this site decide to attack it because they don't understand it, rather then pay close attention to how it will actually change the gameplay.
If EA is going to sustain a 2 million plus subscription base for them to break even they really need to consider the console market more. Its a huge market with players hungry for more. TOR might be good to fill that need and gain those subs more easily. I think there will be a revolving sub base because this game is not going to be everyones "cup of tea". Yes, I am aware that BioWare can cure cancer as I have played thier games. But if you add Lucas Arts and EA to this formula, you really need to break this game out to every possible person that can gain enjoyment from its development.
So I now can't play a Rodian Smuggler for the Empire in TOR. LOL, I can in SWG!
This is exactly right, and a problem with some MMO's in development. A bigger problem, is many of the newer MMO players came from single player RPG's and do not realize the potential of an MMO world.
Back in the day, when I would log into early EQ1 (or DAOC or Shadowbane), the "story" was really what the other players were up to (were they forming a group or raid, was the guild planning something, were the Shadowbane folks getting ready to raid or defend a town). Spontaneous dynamic stuff driven by the player base itself, was the story.
But these newer MMO players, many of them, think they are actors standing around a movie set and waiting for their next cue. (Hint: Get some initiative, People!) An MMO is richest when it's freest.
Man... Doesn't anyone listen to what Bioware is saying? This game is going to have Guilds.... so OBVIOUSLY your guild is going to do stuff that's NOT based around the story. Christ.... the Story aspect of the game is for your CLASS, and an ALTERNATE way of leveling. Why is everyone so hung up on the idea that the ONLY thing in the game is this "single player story". Bioware hasn't announced any details on anything else, but they've assured everyone that everything else will be there... Crafting, Exploration, PvP, Raids, Etc.
People really need to get over this whole story thing.... Let Bioware try something out! Not every MMO has to be "Stand around for 6 hours waiting for a mob to respawn" (EQ1). WHY NOT enjoy a good backstory to your Class while you're enjoying your player driven stories like Guild interactment, PvP, etc. Those aren't just going to magically disappear.. why is everyone being so Shortsighted on this.
Maybe Bioware and other dev studios need to get over "this whole story thing" and design worlds instead of movies.
Design a world, have consequences (i.e., death penalties), then folks will come together and make their "own stories" through their "own freely pursued adventures" and the result will be more compelling and immersive than any canned personal storyline the devs can come up with.
The best adventuring I have ever had in all my years of gaming came through teaming up with someone for mutual survival. Was very cool and almost always memorable.
But in some ways very shallow.
As I mentioned in my wall o' text, these "stories" can be rather compelling in a way that the player might feel more weight to what is going on in the moment. However, there is a certain level of nonsense that accompanies your average player when they have complete interactive freedom.
Lots of smack talking, gate hopping, back stabbing, etc. So sure, there can be some compelling game play there and I have experienced some of the more profound game play in Lineage 2 where the main game play is player vs player interaction, but beyond that there really isn't anything else. Except for what the role players come up with.
What's more "shallow" than a fixed linear storyline that every character (or every character in a class) repeats ad infinitum?
Just because others do the same quests doesn't mean the quest is "shallow". If we all read the same book does that then make the book shallow?
I have yet to see player interactions rise above anything other than "you scammed me/you griefed me/one of our clan members was attacked/ we all went exploring and wiped" etc.
Again, the feeling of it mattering more might be greater because we are directly involved but there isn't much as far as story arc, internal conflict, climax, epilogue, etc. Other than role players I don't realy see the depth and complexity in player interactions as they seem to follow the same behavior.
Story can be very compelling and incorporate many more complexities than what I've seen happen in open games. Where it fails as you pointed out, is that if every player does it then it ceases to become "special". But that has nothing to do with its construction and it being shallow.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I was with the article until it suggested that KOTOR 3-9 would have been more open with more options, which is ridiculous. Each KOTOR game, and each Mass Effect game had ONLY human protagonists ( Didn't play their fantasy game, but I believe it was only human-like protags, dwarves and elves and humans). Only. TOR is a dramatic expansion in playable races for the KOTOR franchise, with something in the neighborhood of 10 different races.
As long as we understand that the limits are a function of story, we're good.
This is exactly right, and a problem with some MMO's in development. A bigger problem, is many of the newer MMO players came from single player RPG's and do not realize the potential of an MMO world.
Back in the day, when I would log into early EQ1 (or DAOC or Shadowbane), the "story" was really what the other players were up to (were they forming a group or raid, was the guild planning something, were the Shadowbane folks getting ready to raid or defend a town). Spontaneous dynamic stuff driven by the player base itself, was the story.
But these newer MMO players, many of them, think they are actors standing around a movie set and waiting for their next cue. (Hint: Get some initiative, People!) An MMO is richest when it's freest.
Man... Doesn't anyone listen to what Bioware is saying? This game is going to have Guilds.... so OBVIOUSLY your guild is going to do stuff that's NOT based around the story. Christ.... the Story aspect of the game is for your CLASS, and an ALTERNATE way of leveling. Why is everyone so hung up on the idea that the ONLY thing in the game is this "single player story". Bioware hasn't announced any details on anything else, but they've assured everyone that everything else will be there... Crafting, Exploration, PvP, Raids, Etc.
People really need to get over this whole story thing.... Let Bioware try something out! Not every MMO has to be "Stand around for 6 hours waiting for a mob to respawn" (EQ1). WHY NOT enjoy a good backstory to your Class while you're enjoying your player driven stories like Guild interactment, PvP, etc. Those aren't just going to magically disappear.. why is everyone being so Shortsighted on this.
Maybe Bioware and other dev studios need to get over "this whole story thing" and design worlds instead of movies.
Design a world, have consequences (i.e., death penalties), then folks will come together and make their "own stories" through their "own freely pursued adventures" and the result will be more compelling and immersive than any canned personal storyline the devs can come up with.
The best adventuring I have ever had in all my years of gaming came through teaming up with someone for mutual survival. Was very cool and almost always memorable.
Funny that's all you took out of my post... and you took it out of context.... Read better next time. I was simply saying that everyone needs to realize, that while Bioware is focusing on giving players a great story... people need to know that there's more stuff in the game besides that.
even though I didn't bother to read all this. I did skim through it,
Story is the driving force behind this game, and probably one of the best parts about it. If you don't like story than maybe reconsider playing it?
I don't care about a single player sequal. This is a MMO game with an engaging story line. The difference in single player Kotor and MMO kotor is just the fact I cannot play with thousands of other people.
This is the perfect setting for this game and could be a risky experiment at trying to bring a quality MMO to the market.
Time to stop whining about it and start thanking bioware for taking these kinds of risks to bring you an enjoyable game, instead of half assed throwing something together and forgetting about story.
And when the game fails because so many "reconsidered playing it" are you going to be handling the refunds?
There is way to much ME and now enough WE.
Refugee from UO,EQ,AC,AC2,AO,DAOC,L2,SB,HZ,CoH,PT,EQ2,WoW,VG,SWG,EVE,WAR,DF,MO,AI,GA,LOTRO, SWTOR... Gw2 on Deck
All of that just to tell us you're afraid of something new. What you seem to be relaying is all you want are more WoW clones in the MMO market. "Skip the story because people want aimless but customizable avatars and nothing but grinding." Why don't you ask them to throw in some quests hunting boar knuckles and to remove ships because its like player housing and thats not traditional because WoW doesnt have it. Tell them not to worry about more story when characters reach end game so they can just grind for gear that will be worthless in a couple of months with the next patch becuase thats what MMOs are all about. Really, in my opinion, it seem absurd. I for one am so very glad that at least one company has the courage to put the RPG into MMORPG.
I don't think anyone is really saying "skip the story" in terms of a world having no lore, no factions, no rhyme nor reason behind things being the way they are. I think some folks (me included) are saying "toss the script"; plant us in a world with a background, current events and factions, then turn us loose to choose our own direction.
You're describing something that already exists: they're called sandbox MMO's. There are sandbox MMO's out there.
What you describe as script or story (non-lore, character based dev-provided story), that's what all themepark MMO's have in their quest lines.
Nothing wrong to wish for sandbox MMO mechanics, but it should already be clear that SW:TOR has far more in common with themepark MMO's (bar exploration maybe, that SW:TOR will have in abundance and which is more an oldschool/sandbox MMO trait)
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Ok can someone say Delusions of Grandeur . Seriously is the best you guys can come up with to write about?
I'm starting to seriously doubt the competence
of some of the writers here at MMORPG.
It's getting easier to steer away from this site from day to day because of sub-par articles like this.
If it can even be classified as an article.
See first Sentence...
Have to agree with you sadly, mmorpg was a good site. TBH the article titles are very good and the subjects covered interesting, but it stops there. The content of almost every article are shallow and very very opionated. Not to mention when they ask devs questions, I mean come on.
Game rating system... yeah right. 8.6 way better than 8.4???? Gee the articles sometimes lead you to believe that a difference of 0.2 is the same as a 4.5 vs 9.5
There is hope though and yes mmorpg staff know to how to write, they just need to focus on the game, take a step back and use article templates again.
Comments
Lol I know... I mean, Bioware.. go and watch Monsters Inc
Seriously is anyone even looking at this game?
I loved EQ for all its aspects but truth is, people were getting fed up with spare number of quests and mobgrinding.
That's why follow up MMO's like EQ2 and WoW introduced an abundant amount of quests, because that's what the majority of MMO gamers preferred. If their preference had been mob grinding and doing other stuff than quests for leveling, then that would have won out and sandbox MMO's would be the dominant subgenre in MMO's right now instead of themeparks.
Also, people didn't just want a task with barely any text, they favored background quest text with bits of lore and story in it; if that is lacking, then it's noticed too easily how most quests and tasks are basically the same 'fetch this-kill x of y' structure, and people start complaining about the quest grind. You only have to look at MMO's as Aion and the repeater quests in it, that a quest being only a task without context isn't enough.
So, we haven't suddenly magically arrived at the current state of MMORPG's: it is because already since EQ a majority of MMO gamers favored as no1 feature quests as a means to progress their character, not just free-roaming find-your-own-thing-to-do, and those quests couldn't be simple contextless tasks: no, they needed to have context, lore and story in it.
If MMO gamers hadn't favored dev-provided quests as MMO content above other things since the early MMO's as EQ onwards, then MMO companies would never have gone through the trouble of expanding upon that gameplay feature.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Guild wars 2 will make a bang just like Wow did in 2005, it will be a highly polished,very beautiful game that will bring lots on innovations to the genre.
Star Wars will be a story driven MMORPG(probably even better than Mass Effect storywise). Nothing wrong in that, its just SOMETHING else. I personally would prefer sandbox star wars games..but oh well.. i will still give Old Republic a go.
Im very happy 2011 will bring something new and polished.. last couple of years been really booring.. no wonder WoW is still so strong...
Oh please, let us cut the " more story = less mmo feeling" BS shall we? I'm gona give you an example of "mmo feeling" in todays, and the future imho, most succesfull MMO, World of Warcraft. This is how "MMO'ish" i leveled my last two alts, a Death Knight and a enhancement shaman.
DK: finished the initiation quest line, got my T2 quality blues. got me a blood spec build from a website and then solo facerolled all the quests including the group ones up to the level cap. Wow... what an mmo feeling.
Shaman: skipped the group quests till i got 2 abilities called Shamanistic Rage and Feral Spirit. Then solo facerolled everything up to to level 80. Wow... what an mmo feeling.
And this is how the 80% levels its toons in World of Warcraft. Nowadays it has become a single player process.
Why does it always feel like everytime i read something about TOR on one of these blogs on these websites it's always bashing it or trying to downplay it? I mean, you guys wrote like 3 different articles about how much you disliked the "tunnel shooter" as a space fight.. Now this? lol
IDK it could all be in my head but i sense some resentment here.
Currently Playing:
Rift + Starcraft II + Gears Of War 3 Beta
It does seem like every article on this site about TOR is something negative. Oh well, this is the SWG Vet lounge over here at MMORPG.com
"When it comes to GW2 any game is fair game"
No actually you are right the writer of this article is the same person to write the others I am fairly certain and yes most of his articles take a negative tone to TOR at the end of the day though I could care less because in the last paragraph he redeems himself some by stating an obvious fact. We will be getting the next four or five KOTOR games rolled into this one mmo which will still make it better than the hit or miss mmo's we get from companies like FC,Mythic,AV and others out there.
When more than half the mmo's coming out suck wouldn't one think that maybe they all suck because it's time for a change? Maybe also my sentiment is different because I refuse to take the high browed stance that mmo's are somehow different than other video games while there are factors that differentiate it from developing non mmo's that's no different than th fact that designing a sports sim isn't the same as developing an rpg.
My interest in TOR is the only reason I continue to read up on it even though a vast majority of commentary is from people who chose to complain, I won't let that bother me because at the end of the day I stand tall in the knowledge that I played the Baldurs Gate Series and KOTOR for maybe the same length of time I've played many mmo's and if this is still just a single player game in the same frame as those two but with the ability to invite folks into my single player game then that's a good game to me and will have served it's purpose.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
You kind of hit the nail on the head, and it's something I noticed my first time in an mmo which happened to be SWG. All the same folks who purport to be such avid mmo'ers are just the masters of min/maxing more often than not. The only distinction I can make between my friends who game but don't play mmo's and the folks I've met who do play mmo's is the fact that mmo players pay very little to no attention to lore etc but can tell you every single thing about stats.
It would boggle mymind to prepare to head into a raid and hear all the party members recite the stats of the weapon that would be dropped by the boss, and it was like "wow you guys don't give a shit about the lore at all do you and honestly why is a sword that gives you a bonus of 0.01% such a big deal" and that was when I decided I would never be that typeof player because it reminded me too much of the traits exhibited by an addict.
Since then I've actually gone out of my way to reach max rank in any mmo I played because at that time you are literally forced to play that way whether you want to or not in many cases. Then I played LOTRO which in my opinion is an anomoly of mmo's because we generally don't cater much to a crowd that thinks like that (I wonder if that has something to do withthe fact that right now LOTRO is the most story focused mmo on the market) and more often it is about being in Tolkiens world with your friends I had multiple toons at max level there because it was always about the time you spent in the game world and who you spent it with.
What fans and those with an open mind to TOR have to remember is that even if all these die hard mmo fans are right and TOR will not be considered a success or good game by the mmo community it won't matter the game still will not fail and will still probably meet your personal expectations because the products backed by the people who bash this game are more often than not failure niche products that rarely leave a blip on the radar. While TOR may not be that persons cup of tea I can say with confidence I usually back a winner and more often than not when I don't I still enjoy myself.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Man... Doesn't anyone listen to what Bioware is saying? This game is going to have Guilds.... so OBVIOUSLY your guild is going to do stuff that's NOT based around the story. Christ.... the Story aspect of the game is for your CLASS, and an ALTERNATE way of leveling. Why is everyone so hung up on the idea that the ONLY thing in the game is this "single player story". Bioware hasn't announced any details on anything else, but they've assured everyone that everything else will be there... Crafting, Exploration, PvP, Raids, Etc.
People really need to get over this whole story thing.... Let Bioware try something out! Not every MMO has to be "Stand around for 6 hours waiting for a mob to respawn" (EQ1). WHY NOT enjoy a good backstory to your Class while you're enjoying your player driven stories like Guild interactment, PvP, etc. Those aren't just going to magically disappear.. why is everyone being so Shortsighted on this.
And you are 100% correct. There is NO MMO feeling in WoW... it's all about stats. I do level alot of alts in that game, but that's as far as it goes with me, I don't do any of the end game because of all the elitest a$$holes that play that game. And I'm not attached to any of my WoW characters... the only thing I can decipher between them, is which one was my first 80, my first created one... etc. That's as far as the attchment goes.
I believe that the way Bioware is making SWTOR is going to get people more into their character, and attach to them much better than any other MMO. Your character will probably mean alot more to you than just numbers when you get to the end game. I KNOW this because every other Bioware game has attached me to my character in ways no other game has before. And Bioware WILL continue this trend with SWTOR.
Nobody is forcing anyone to play the game.
If people don't want to play a heavilly story focused game, go find something else to do.
SWToR is an ambitiously huge game that seeks to add the missing element from most MMOs, which is story. It can't do everything at once though. OH GOD WAAHHH!!!! It also must have some limits somewhere. WWAAAAHHH!!! You don't get to play as monsters because Star Wars has always had a human or at least human-like hero. WAAAAHHHH!!!!
Seriously, after reading articles whining about how this MMO is going to be an MMO and not a space sim and now articles whining about how you don't get to play every hideous race in the Star Wars universe, but must stick to more human races, I am losing faith in this site.
Seriously, you guys are supposed to know something about MMOs. You would think that every time you hear about some sort of limitation in what is by all accounts a MASSIVE undertaking, you wouldn't rush to your computer to cry about it.
There have to be limits somewhere and keeping the hero races more human-like really is in line with the movies.
As soon as Bioware announces that there will have to be a limit to the amount of content that they can include in the game at launch, I expect another article questioning why they can't include infinite content.
Currently playing:
Rift
Played:
SWToR, Aion,EQ, Dark Age of Camelot
World of Warcraft, AoC
But in some ways very shallow.
As I mentioned in my wall o' text, these "stories" can be rather compelling in a way that the player might feel more weight to what is going on in the moment. However, there is a certain level of nonsense that accompanies your average player when they have complete interactive freedom.
Lots of smack talking, gate hopping, back stabbing, etc. So sure, there can be some compelling game play there and I have experienced some of the more profound game play in Lineage 2 where the main game play is player vs player interaction, but beyond that there really isn't anything else. Except for what the role players come up with.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Answer: The character of someone trying to suggest that mmorpgs should be deep.
First, who said it was ever going to be forced?
Second, people are making too big of a deal about the story aspect. Its almost the SAME exact thing as regular quest givers, except you actually get to make a choice, its fully voiced, and its viewed cinematically. In most MMOs, I find it much less immersive to stand at a "quest giver" and see 10 other people just hanging around the quest giver too. I like the idea that they instance your personal missions, in a tiny little box where only you can choose whether you want to watch and listen, whether you want to "kill the captain" and whatever other choices that the system gives you.
People who want to bypass the dialogue altogether, they can go right ahead. If they want to grind mobs, PvP, do world arcs, nothings stopping them. Adding a story people actually care about isn't a bad thing in MMOs, its just NOT something that MMOs have done before, and I find it ridiculous that so much of the people on this site decide to attack it because they don't understand it, rather then pay close attention to how it will actually change the gameplay.
Hmm,
If EA is going to sustain a 2 million plus subscription base for them to break even they really need to consider the console market more. Its a huge market with players hungry for more. TOR might be good to fill that need and gain those subs more easily. I think there will be a revolving sub base because this game is not going to be everyones "cup of tea". Yes, I am aware that BioWare can cure cancer as I have played thier games. But if you add Lucas Arts and EA to this formula, you really need to break this game out to every possible person that can gain enjoyment from its development.
So I now can't play a Rodian Smuggler for the Empire in TOR. LOL, I can in SWG!
Just because others do the same quests doesn't mean the quest is "shallow". If we all read the same book does that then make the book shallow?
I have yet to see player interactions rise above anything other than "you scammed me/you griefed me/one of our clan members was attacked/ we all went exploring and wiped" etc.
Again, the feeling of it mattering more might be greater because we are directly involved but there isn't much as far as story arc, internal conflict, climax, epilogue, etc. Other than role players I don't realy see the depth and complexity in player interactions as they seem to follow the same behavior.
Story can be very compelling and incorporate many more complexities than what I've seen happen in open games. Where it fails as you pointed out, is that if every player does it then it ceases to become "special". But that has nothing to do with its construction and it being shallow.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I was with the article until it suggested that KOTOR 3-9 would have been more open with more options, which is ridiculous. Each KOTOR game, and each Mass Effect game had ONLY human protagonists ( Didn't play their fantasy game, but I believe it was only human-like protags, dwarves and elves and humans). Only. TOR is a dramatic expansion in playable races for the KOTOR franchise, with something in the neighborhood of 10 different races.
As long as we understand that the limits are a function of story, we're good.
The Illusion of Choice
Funny that's all you took out of my post... and you took it out of context.... Read better next time. I was simply saying that everyone needs to realize, that while Bioware is focusing on giving players a great story... people need to know that there's more stuff in the game besides that.
Nice try though.
Refugee from UO,EQ,AC,AC2,AO,DAOC,L2,SB,HZ,CoH,PT,EQ2,WoW,VG,SWG,EVE,WAR,DF,MO,AI,GA,LOTRO, SWTOR... Gw2 on Deck
All of that just to tell us you're afraid of something new. What you seem to be relaying is all you want are more WoW clones in the MMO market. "Skip the story because people want aimless but customizable avatars and nothing but grinding." Why don't you ask them to throw in some quests hunting boar knuckles and to remove ships because its like player housing and thats not traditional because WoW doesnt have it. Tell them not to worry about more story when characters reach end game so they can just grind for gear that will be worthless in a couple of months with the next patch becuase thats what MMOs are all about. Really, in my opinion, it seem absurd. I for one am so very glad that at least one company has the courage to put the RPG into MMORPG.
You're describing something that already exists: they're called sandbox MMO's. There are sandbox MMO's out there.
What you describe as script or story (non-lore, character based dev-provided story), that's what all themepark MMO's have in their quest lines.
Nothing wrong to wish for sandbox MMO mechanics, but it should already be clear that SW:TOR has far more in common with themepark MMO's (bar exploration maybe, that SW:TOR will have in abundance and which is more an oldschool/sandbox MMO trait)
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Have to agree with you sadly, mmorpg was a good site. TBH the article titles are very good and the subjects covered interesting, but it stops there. The content of almost every article are shallow and very very opionated. Not to mention when they ask devs questions, I mean come on.
Game rating system... yeah right. 8.6 way better than 8.4???? Gee the articles sometimes lead you to believe that a difference of 0.2 is the same as a 4.5 vs 9.5
There is hope though and yes mmorpg staff know to how to write, they just need to focus on the game, take a step back and use article templates again.