Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Designing the lightside video, friday update.
slpr
Member Posts: 340
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
slpr
Member Posts: 340
Comments
Interesting vid. I like the design of the top lightsaber at 2:13.
Ah, I'd expected the smuggler video to have been the only major info update this week, cool, thanks for the heads up!
Gonna watch it right away.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I really like the way they are creating the lightsabers to be reactive. Hitting each other, blocking front and back and blocking blaster fire. It can make the game so much more immersive. I am going to have a problem chosing a main.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
Recent info is starting to turn me off the game. Spent a lot of time arguing it wasn't WoW with lightsabers....and now it is looking just like WoW with lightsabers (and story too, don't get me wrong, that part should be GREAT).
Judging by the stats that have been released, the game is even more hard-core Holy Trinity than WoW. Healers, for instance, get the joy of healing their companion for solo content.
As for this video, they talk a nice talk, but how can you be like Luke Skywalker if you can't wear no armor and use a single lightsaber exceedingly well?
It's starting to seem like capturing the Star Wars experience is only going to be true for the story elements, because the combat certainly isn't going to do it at all. For fracks sake, they have the Warhammer Devs to draw on and they can't even make a dual-target mechanic to support hybrids. Anyhow, Jedi that sit back and heal is NOT a Star Wars experience, but they will be an essential component of group combat (that or smugglers that stand back and heal).
I'm pretty darn disappointed today.
I hear you man. I always played KotOR with one single handed lightsaber no mather what class I went and yes I know the dual-sabers are superior in every way but I just didn't care. The game is easy enough anyway.
Yes, because a player deciding to go the full on healing route and deciding to let his pet dps for him is forcing you into a path of having to heal him all day. Most of the time they have played the consular they remained still, and used a heal every now and then to give you a steady look at what was going on. I bet if I was given the keyboard I would be able to maintain DPS and healing at the same time. If you choose to sit there and heal your companions or team mates, good for you. If you choose to get involved in the fight and would like to continue supporting your party members, more power to you.
Oh well, I guess I plan to play the game how I want, not how I've been shown in a video.
Quite frankly I don't care. I suppose the healer could instead gimp himself and wear DPS gear and then have to carry around two sets of gear. Great.
Not that it really matters.
I've realized from everything they've released that TOR is a hardcore Holy Trinity game. That is so unfitting of Star Wars that it is insane. Fights aren't going to be Star Wars-like. They are going to be far, far more WoW-like. The unreality of Trinity combat is going to pretty much kill the feeling of being in a Star Wars universe in a group setting. Pretty lame.
All those memories will be lost in time, like tears in the rain.
SWG had/has the trinity. In PvE situations, I don't really see how a game can be deep without the trinity. It would just be a damage race while popping healing items. I believe that each class will be viable as hybrids, sometimes switching roles on the fly from some of the things I've heard. Trinity or no, I still have awesome vibes coming from TOR.
SWG was a stupid game on release and it is still stupid. The only thing that has changed about it is how it is stupid. Why are you even bringing it up?
LOL, you really think the Trinity is deep? Are you serious about that? The Trinity has all the tactical depth of a paper bag. The only thing that can possibly make Trinity combat interesting is having some crazy gimmick in every fight. Once you learn that gimmick, then it is back to no tactical depth. Have you ever played a Trinity game where boss fights weren't something heavily, heavily, heavily choreographed?
Anyhow, it seems like you can only imagine Trinity combat or "Everyone is exactly the same in all ways" combat. Open your eyes a bit. There are dozens or more combat systems that aren't Trinity. There are plenty of ways to have specialized roles and tactical depth. Look at war throughout history in real life. Look at tabletop RPGs like D&D. Look at non-MMO RPGs (excluding Dragon Age: Origins). Look at an FPS game like Team Fortress. None of these things have tanks, dps, or healer roles, but they do have specialization. What they also have, that the Trinity lacks, is the importance of positioning and movement built into the combat rather than enforced for one fight by a gimmick. They have complex give and take because everyone isn't super-specialized. The only reason the Trinity in MMORPGs is even popular is because EQ and WoW have done...that's it. Two games and everyone tries to copy one or the other. It's ridiculous.
I've looked over what the Devs for SWTOR have said very carefully. I've seen the stat system. I've seen how they are splitting up roles in the talent trees. There's ZERO reason to think hybrids will be viable anymore than they are in WoW. They have no dual-target system, for instance, which makes helping friendlies while hurting bag guys very, very difficult. The stats for characters are highly specialized, to the point of the healing stat being totally separated from any damage dealing stat. They have never hinted that hybrids would ever work, and indeed have said repeatedly the game is a "standard" MMO with healers, dps, and tanks. They'd have to have a pretty smart system to allow hybrids, otherwise hybrids always end up being better than pures, and they definitely have pures.
I think you've maybe taken those combat demos without considering them fully. In them the roles are a bit loose, it is true. Unfortunately, that's at a very low level. Even WoW has a loose Trinity at low levels. The accumulation of Stats and talents forces you to specialize into one role at higher levels, however.
are you BMF (bad mr frosty) from swg pre-cu?
Wow, take a chill pill, son. Most games do use the system,sometimes it's just hidden. I didn't necessarily mean "DEEP" deep, but it is a lot better than the race to down something before it downs you while popping healing items to stay alive. I don't think that's very deep. Standards are established for a reason when it comes to anything in life. They are established because they work and most of the time, they are the most efficient way to go about doing things.
Yes, I can imagine a game that doesn't use the trinity system. It's not that hard to do, however, there are still downfalls to anyway you choose to impliment such a system. There are always trade-offs, no exceptions. If something works enough, I say don't mess with it. I have yet to see it first hand, but from what I see, it works.
Nice vid. I like waht they are doing with the force classes. So many choices...what am I gonna do?
It utterly and completely fails to be immersive. It fails to be anything like combat in the Star Wars IP. It's also not interesting.
I guess if you don't care about story or being true to the IP, then the trade offs are worth it if you are willing to also have boring combat.
Not sure why you insist on comparing it to a Straw Man combat system no one would advocate. Well, that's not true, you are probably doing that because that's the only way the Trinity looks any good. Like I said, this is only a "standard" because of EQ and WoW. That's like saying all FPS should use a two-dimensional system since Wolfenstein 3D and Doom did (oh look, that "standard" died a long time ago). The only thing the trinity has going for it is that it is a hack job that doesn't require a much work to implement.
So let's see, we have a combat system that isn't true to the IP, isn't interesting in itself, not immersive, but happens to be easy to implement. Sounds alright for a little side component of the game, I guess. Unfortunately, combat is perhaps THE primary activity. I think they got the trade-offs backwards. They should have gone with something harder to do that fit the IP and was interesting, since it is such a huge game component.
Pardon the enthusiasm, but I enjoy demolishing bad arguments.
Man, you are so cool... Yeah, FPS's had the third dimension added, that's why there aren't really any 2-d FPS anymore, moot. Things evolve, bro, I don't dispute that one bit. Do I think TOR is an evolution? To some extent, I agree it could be more, but what can you do, huh? I just have to ask, if you don't like the choreographed combat, did you watch Star Wars? What do you want? Jedi Academy-style combat, that looks haggard and has people jumping around like a bunch of dumbasses? No thanks. Just tell me, what do you want from the combat?
Immersion, is of much importance. Bioware always puts a great deal of love into story and immersion. So I have little doubt in there ablilty in that respect. I seriously doubt that having the trinity system in will detract that much immersion from everything else that's going on. WoW was immersive, with the environment, lore from the RTS's it was based upon and the little things Blizzard put in made it what it was. If Blizzard can do it, I have faith that Bioware can achieve it as well.
What can you do? Something like GW2, right? Dynamic Events, personal story, non-Trinity combat. Being innovative is quite possible, and TOR had a significantly larger budget to be innovative with.
By and large the Star Wars movies don't have combat that looks choreographed. It looks REAL (the biggest exception is probably the Yoda-Dooku fight which was awful). In contrast Trinity combat looks choreographed and far more damningly plays very, very choreographed so it neither looks nor feels real.
I want a combat system that feels real and plays like something from the movies. Have a Morale meter instead of health perhaps (like LOTRO). Don't go with the Trinity combat system. Perhaps use something roughly based off of Mass Effect or the Star Wars SAGA tabletop RPG (they'd both need further work of course). Have positioning and movement matter and be important. Go with the movies in that the more people shooting at you, the harder it is to block all the shots if you are a Jedi (the SAGA RPG does this wonderfully for what it is worth). Have weapons behave fairly realistically regarding range and so forth rather than acting as magic wands for abilities. Going with the same classes, Jedi would be very deadly at melee, have good defenses at all range (precognitive and all). Troopers would have great range and a number of weapons that were good at different things (some good against vehicles, some against people, some agains droids, with different settings and so forth), but they'd be at a disadvantage close up -- they would have a longer range then even Jedi good with telekinetics (that fits with lore). And so on. Cover should matter for everyone and you should be able to use corners for cover. Anyhow, I can't give an exact system since I haven't had a year or two to make one, but I have some ideas of where you'd start the R&D of developing one.
I am stunned you think that WoW was immersive. I guess if that qualifies as immersive to you and as immersive as something like Baldur's Gate 2...then wel...I guess you'll find TOR plenty immersive. For me, crappy combat that requires even brilliant villains to behave like total morons makes it unimmersive.
Sorry, mate, but people who actually played the demos didn't find it boring, they actually enjoyed themselves.
So until you've actually played it on a higher level and know how it goes, it's just another speculation from someone who thinks he knows how things will work in the end just by seeing a bit of footage and reading some stats.
And hybrids not possible in a trinity combat system?? Bull. AoC managed to work with hybrid classes pretty damn good in all kinds of situations.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I find Trinity combat boring and stale. Many others do too. That some people who get to play a Star Wars MMO ONCE in a group demo when they've hardly played the game before and never in a group did not find it boring is hardly a surprise.
It's not just based on stats (though that was what finally convinced me). It is based on stats, advanced classes, talent tree specializations, how the devs constantly talk and refer to WoW as the standard, how they constantly talk about healing/dps/tanking, how they never talk about hybrids or anything they've done to enable hybrids, etc, etc, etc.
Hybrids require a LOT of specialized mechanics to work right in a Trinity system. There has to be focus and dedication to making them work without being overpowered or crap. There's no evidence of hybrid-friendly systems (dual target) or abilities (things that heal AND damage) or even hints of such things.
Nope, I'm referring to the black jedi guy in the third movie who requested a pink light sabre from George Lucas with the letters B, M and F on the hilt or else he wouldn't participate.
Watch the movie and pause at the right moment with a HD TV you should be able to spot it.
All those memories will be lost in time, like tears in the rain.
Do you really not know who Samuel L Jackson is?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Eh? Dual targets, heal AND damage? Sorry, that may be one of the possible means - like in WAR maybe - but AoC doesn't work like that. There are lots of more ways to break trinity or to make hybrids useful without being overpowered.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Explain to me how it will exist in a system with dedicated healing specs and dedicated healing gear, where they only talk about classic Trinity roles.
1. That they talk about classic Trinity roles only is your own delusion, I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise if in your disappointment you've grown so strongly that idee fixe that all the arguments and quotes other posters provided in other threads can't help you see otherwise. You need to believe BW only implements classic Trinity roles? Fine, believe all you want. I hold my own different thoughts about it based on the info and footage available.
2. different specialisations possible per AC does not mean that the spec trees are single focus only, and neither does it mean that you can only choose abilities from one tree to be effective. As other MMO's have proven.
3. To move away from a pure classical trinity combat, devs can design encounters not to have to rely upon the tank having to draw all mob attention: less powerful AoE taunt skills, more focus on CC needed, means less hard healing needed, add more self reliance of the classes (in-combat regen skills, small heals, healing Companions).
In short, another flow than 1 pure tank, 1 pure healer, 2 DPS. With a larger focus on CC, the fact that combat and even the 'main tank' is more range-based (PB AoE taunts are less effective, and group spreads out more), the cover system, and the variable of the Companions added, and team combat has the potential of being its own flavor in SW:TOR.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I've shown you proof against pretty much all of that already. The Combat Demo is full of role talk (And I've given other links in another thread). That Demo also shows that there's ONE main boss and a bunch of adds that are a total joke (they don't even hurt the DPS guy much over the fight). Doesn't look that different from WoW, honestly, except perhaps for the fact it is more inspired than the low-level stuff in WoW.
Clearly you need some time to keep track of what they are saying and digest this.
You're hopeless, you only see what you want to see. They talk about trinity roles because people ask about the trinity roles, and like they've said they aren't necessary. You'll never see it for what it truly is until it launches. Meanwhile you can still sit around and pretend the game is a WoW clone. We can revisit this entire conversation 1 month after launch.