General: Fighting Talk: Old vs New MMOs Part 2

SBFord

In the second part of his Fighting Talk column, MMORPG.com writer Adam Tingle continues the battle between old and new MMORPGs begun in Part I. As it stands at the moment, new MMOs are narrowly edging out old MMOs by a score of 23 to 21. See if the oldsters can make a comeback in the areas of soloing, instances, and community in Old vs New MMOs Part 2.

Try to be best 'cause you're only a man and a man's gotta learn to take it. Try to believe when the going gets rough that you gotta’ hang tough to make it. History repeats itself try and you'll succeed. Never doubt that you’re the one and you can have your dream. You’re the best around! Nothing is gonna’ ever keep you down! You're the best around! Nothing is gonna’ ever keep you down! You're the best around! Nothing is gonna’ ever keep you dow-ow-ow-ow-own!

Read more Old vs New MMOs.

bobfish

Soloing shouldn't be that high, very few classes in EQ could actually solo and those that could weren't always obvious in how you did it. DAoC was only marginally better, though admittedly UO supported it quite well.

 

Otherwise I tend to agree with you.

Rockgod99

Graphics, combat and solo play have evolved since the old days and honestly that's All new mmorpg players look at. Sure old games were much better in many ways but that doesn't matter... Bad graphics? None plays. bad combat? Noone plays.Group focused? People say they have lives so they don't play. Shit like communities and depth of features/ tools no longer matter to the majority.

TheDarkrayne

Lets not forget soloing in asheron's call. It was easy to gimp your character due to the open ended skill system but if you didn't do anything silly you could achieve much more solo than I've ever seen in another MMO.

jmcdermottuk

The last part about community is spot on. Older MMO's had much better communities. And the recent one cited for staying old school, EVE online, is a sandbox and totally player driven. I find it interesting that the only "modern" MMO to be commended for it's community is not yet another theme park.

 

Makes you think, eh?

Palebane

Maybe one day there will be reason for players from both sides of the fence to band together.

BeansnBread

There is so much that I disagree with in both of these articles, that it is too overwhelming for me to express my counterpoints.

Frostbite05

solo for old should be lik 3/10 it was horrible. Dungeons back in the day were all tank and spank for hours which should be 5/10 and thats high just for nostalgic reasons.

Tryken

I feel the older style of dungeons was MUCH BETTER. They really deserved a perfect score. Why? Because it's true. Dungeons felt SCARY. Dungeons are meant to feel like you're going somewhere dangerous. When I go to a dungeon in WoW, it just feels like "Huh. Looks like we're running this dungeon again. Oh well." In Ultima Online, and even in (dare I say it) Ragnarok Online, dungeons were intimidating. If something went wrong, or upset the dungeon, it wasn't just your party, or you, that suffered the consequences, it was all the players in the dungeon. It felt much more like real life. Others could be put into danger by your actions. Isn't that a thought?

 

Also, the community is much, much better in older-style MMOs. I remember looking for a party was a blast. Sometimes I'd travel the dungeon, find a fellow adventurer in it, and we'd team up, then create a solid friendship out of the experience. In WoW, they're not even from my server half the time! So I'll never see those guys again. 

 

I obviously prefer older style MMORPGs. It's just what my passion is. If you like the newer style, great! Good for you. That's cool. But for those of us who've played many years, it's just a good time in the old, epic sandbox fashion. 

BradofCanada

Reading these make me want to load up Ultima Online again,Im pretty sure I still have all my copies somewhere.I would tend to guess that my cabin must have fell down by now

tiki

It is a shame that you can only have a 10 point difference on this scale for community.  Community in old MMO's have never been close to being replicated by new MMO's.  

Rydeson

     Excellent part 2.. I would agree that I think Solo play was a lil high for 'old' mmos.. but everything else was spot on..  Especially the community, which should in include guilds as well..   You gotta miss the good ole days, for those of us that remember true dungeon crawling..  I still get lost in EQ1 dungeons.. LOL

Ceridith

Originally posted by Frostbite05

solo for old should be lik 3/10 it was horrible. Dungeons back in the day were all tank and spank for hours which should be 5/10 and thats high just for nostalgic reasons.

 

EQ was not the only 'oldschool' game, and it's the only one that was so rigidly locked into that model. Pretty much every other 'oldschool' MMO allowed for high levels of dungeon soloing if you were good at the game.

Ceridith

Originally posted by BradofCanada

Reading these make me want to load up Ultima Online again,Im pretty sure I still have all my copies somewhere.I would tend to guess that my cabin must have fell down by now

 

Don't.

UO today is nowhere near what it was years ago. It's extremely item grind based, many of which are eye searing shades of neon.

The major shift in the game was due to the Age of Shadows expansion... whose lead developer and the person who championed the majority of the fundamental gameplay changes, Tom Chilton, aka Kalgan, jumped ship to be one of the major WoW developers.

Daakkon

I agree whole-hartedly, which is why I am playing classic EQ again. The whole feel of the world and the way the game forced you to play was quite epic. EVE, DF, MO, are truly the only newer gen mmo's forcing you to play with others.

ZoeMcCloskey

Glad I am not the only one who sighs and thinks back to the good ole days of MMOs.  Admittedly at the time I disliked some of the things that I know look back on wistfully.

I think of more recent MMOs to me Fallen Earth has the best overall community.  I've very rarely met anyone rude at all.  The major drawback is the lack of chat channels.  Also I think the decision for omni-crafting led to less need for people to work together or trade with each other.  oops going off on a tangent, nm

simmihi

Originally posted by Ceridith

Originally posted by Frostbite05

solo for old should be lik 3/10 it was horrible. Dungeons back in the day were all tank and spank for hours which should be 5/10 and thats high just for nostalgic reasons.

 

EQ was not the only 'oldschool' game, and it's the only one that was so rigidly locked into that model. Pretty much every other 'oldschool' MMO allowed for high levels of dungeon soloing if you were good at the game.

"You have reached level +1. You gain 100 HP and 1 point in INT and STA. You automatically gain new skills/spells. Please don't bother, leveling up is not an important event in your character's life, continue quest grinding".

Everyone running damage number add-ons turning everything into an ego race with mashing buttons in ways which make players more or less "skilled". I do not want to play First Person Shooters online.

Everyone checking equipment when inviting you. Bosses scripted that someone can wipe a full raid if they lag or disconnect. People "do the bosses" which interests them in terms of loot and then leave, with or without a reason... no i'm not impressed with nowaday's games / dungeons. On top of that, we get bad communities and close-to-zero horizontal development - new content comes with increased level cap and a total rewamp of the classes so everything which you have planned or acumulated becomes obsolete. The "leveling up an alt" experience is forced on one and only path, and with 17 level cap increases it all becomes not only not-enjoyable but nasty.

I'd take the tank & spank and boss camping approach anyday. At least it offered some form of accomplishment. I want to get back the communities and most of all the depth of the games where the actual RPG part - character planning, skill distribution etc. - counts. Where, if you gain a level, you don't automatically get a "new spell rank" which automatically does 50% more damage than the previous rank.

I don't mind if it's not "sandbox", i actually like some direction. It seems to me that both genres, sandbox and themepark, go with it too far. Today the sandbox games are mostly huge and empty, you have zero guidance and you see one person in 3 hours, while the theme park ones just do not offer enough "depth" to "catch" me. I play them for 2-3 hours then i realise it will end up in a gear-grinding-button-mashing thing and they automatically become boring.

Agnostic42

People bashing old school MMO's for solo'ability are a bit off base. For example every class in EQ could solo, it wasn't the most enjoyable endeavor nor the most exciting, but it could be done.

 

Rangers-Fear kite animals

Shadowknights-Fear kite whatever they chose

Necro's-Whatever they wanted

Wizards-Quad kiting

Druids-Quad kiting

Shaman-Slow tank in da face

Warriors-Green con killers

Rogue-Green con killers

Enchanters-Charming

Magicians-Whatever they wanted

Monks-Blue/Green con killers

Cleric-Anything undead

Paladin-Anything undead/Blue con

Bards-Chant/Charm kiting

The main difference in these classes was how much downtime you had between kills.

I think the rating they gave old school MMO's for solo'ing was about right. Also at the time those games had tons of websites and forums available for telling people how to do it. It just wasnt available in game. So you had to hunt for the information online, or learn it yourself.

I solo'd my old main quite often (Shaman) in EQ. It wasnt the easiest thing to learn but once you did, it was quite rewarding.

 

Also on the old dungeons, how many old school players remember the Guk trains, then when Kunark came out, the sebilis trains, oh man. That was fear. And it made the community much stronger, and friendships much tighter.

Rydeson

     agreed agnostic.. I remember when Kunark came out.. I did most of my adventuring in OT at first, then moved up to KC north wall.. then inside KC.....  OMG.. I remember the trains there.. and how many people died at the zone line if they were AFK while some dumbass exited the wrong way..  EQ1 was a love/hate relationship at times.. but one thing for sure, the community was much better.. IMO

samhainchld

I do play and enjoy new games like LOTRO (life sub) but I have to agree with a few others here about the lack of fear/excitement in dungeon crawls. Hearing someone yelling TRAIN!!!!! when you you were in Mistmore, Cazic Thule or Guk. If you played in any of the places like that for a long time you eventually had a macro to shout it on your way out. It sucked if you died but man what a rush.

Druid SoW FTW!

Garvon3

Originally posted by colddog04

There is so much that I disagree with in both of these articles, that it is too overwhelming for me to express my counterpoints.

Then why bother posting at all? It seemed pretty spot on accurate to me. I've seen both sides, and they're portrayed pretty accurately here.

Volkon

It's a pity that GW2 isn't really out yet for comparison... this will be the next generation of MMO and likely knock the current style further back in the pack.

Garvon3

Originally posted by Frostbite05

solo for old should be lik 3/10 it was horrible. Dungeons back in the day were all tank and spank for hours which should be 5/10 and thats high just for nostalgic reasons.

You realize not all old MMOs were EverQuest, right?

 

And what do yuo mean, it was all tank and spank for hours? The mechanics and care and skill involved in keeping ones self alive during a dugneon crawl completely eclipses that required in modern day MMOs.

As for solo play, some classes leveled slower than others, but all leveling was slow. It had nothing to do with the soloing mechanics, because they're just as boring today as they were then.

I would rather explore through a forest on my own accord, looking for mobs to hunt, then follow a magical dotted line from some generic quest. It still boils down to killing the same mobs over and over, and one is more immersive than the other, which is where it got points.

As for dungeon crawls, they were INTENSE. I have many MANY memories of dungeon crawls from old MMOs, and almost none from new MMOs. Is it nostalgia? No. It's the game mechanics. Because I played Vanguard, which had similar mechanics to old MMOs, and I remember those dungeon crawls with clarity. Can't say the same for other modern MMOs.

Garvon3

Originally posted by Volkon

It's a pity that GW2 isn't really out yet for comparison... this will be the next generation of MMO and likely knock the current style further back in the pack.

I doubt it, so far there doesn't look to be enough different, and I am NOT a fan of just instantly teleporting anywhere on the map. No immersion in that, so why do they even bother with their new quest system if you STILL have a GPS tracking map and teleports?

Gravarg

For the most part solo in older MMOs was more a challenge than it is today.  In some, you couldn't solo at all.  There were however in almost all old MMOs a class (or several) that excelled in Solo.  Necromancer in DAoC comes to mind.  I leveled my Warrior to 50 first, it took like a month to get 40-50.  My necromancer I did 40-50 in 4 days (chain pulls ftw).  I agree with the numbers, as older MMOs really weren't about solo play.  The only time I ever soloed was when I had a late night playing and noone was around, which was almost never.  You can't even begin to compare the dungeons of old and new MMOs.  Old MMOs had by far the better dungeons, the score should be 10 for old, 2 for new.  And only getting a 2 because I like the cutscenes in FFIV hehe. Otherwise, new mmos should get a 1 (or 0 if possible).

Tyrranosaur

Adam you're 19, don't call yourself an old curmudgeon! It annoys the old curmudgeons like myself while we're trying to shoo you off our lawn.

That said, I've been enjoying your article. I think it's reflective of the fact that where and when we start shades our experience and memorable moments...I may be an old curmudgeon but I missed the rise of MMOs due to an absence of computers for several years, and didn't get a decent PC (trading up my iMac) until January 2005, and WoW became my first foray in to MMOs. I tried several others, WoW had me so hooked, but everything else I tried seemed to ridiculously archaic and poorly designed by comparison. That said, my wife was into EQ almost from day one and she loved it, although she can never go back.

I think the one point that's indisputable you make is with regard to community then vs. now. When MMOs were more of experiences to be endured, and the community was more focused to genuine gamers (and not the teeming, unwashed masses I despise today on WoW and others) I think it was possible to get much more out of the community, and to really enjoy it. I hate the "ball park stadium" crowd in games like WoW today....WoW had that community spirit back in 2005, for a while, but its long gone now, alas.