I'm sure a lot of people will be interested at first, but I doubt this game will have lasting power on hardcore players. They will most likely drop off for other games like Tera/Rift/SWTOR. But i'm sure Areanet really only cares about box sales as its not sub based.
Thats the joy as it its a one time payment, means the hardcores can sub on something else while playing GW 2
i am excited but terrified that it will be the bore fest that the first one was after playing a month. I get lost in the drabble trying to figure out what is so different between this one and the first. When I see statements like "I think the game is taking a very bold direction and is adding a lot of attractive features" I get confused. It looks new, pretty and all but i dont understand the difference from the first one.
You obviously haven't been paying attention.
Not only did that help soooooooooo much, it is indicative of paying attention to a bunch of BS that leads me back to my OP. Thank you. I can see the WoW kiddies migrating to GW2
Go do your homework kid. It's not that hard to go to their official site and find the faq and design manifesto. Here let me help you a bit since it seems you're having difficulties.
If you still can't understand the differences then I can't help you and I doubt anyone else can.
I would like to add that what he said about "wow kiddies migrating to GW2" is one of the most idiotic conclusions I have ever heard.
And if they do, they will go back to WoW straight away or try another PVE oriented game.
I know that PVE queens or PVE centrics wont even tough GW2 and that is a fact.
At first you will see a heck of a lot players from every single type of MMO[rpg], massively QQing in forums and then leaving the masses that mostly enjoy a PVP oriented game with fun-based PVE elements. And a live dynamic-event system is a perfect system for PVPers to enjoy.
Not sure why some individuals are so quick to bash one of the greatest PVP-oriented games. Seems to me that PVP is not welcomed and it is your choice; but leave the rest to enjoy it as it was supposed to be.
Not sure why some individuals are so quick to bash one of the greatest PVP-oriented games. Seems to me that PVP is not welcomed and it is your choice; but leave the rest to enjoy it as it was supposed to be.
My two cents.
Outside of forums i've found the opposite to be true thankfully. Guild Wars was never a game i got into, my girlfriend at the time bought it and then the subsequent expansions and it was sort of 'her game' that i didn't interfere in for want of a better phrase. I should really have got into it regardless but somehow i never did.
Over the years the various people that joined our guild in various PvP games such as AoC almost all of them had nothing but positive things to say about guild wars, even those who loved games like Lineage. I go onto forums such as this and others and it tends to be a much more mixed bag of people who either hated it or loved it, but for it's genre and to people who love PvP it's very rare i hear anything bad said about it directly from people's own mouths.
The next time they do a sale on GW on Steam i should probably pick the various ones up, i nearly did the last time but stupidly opted for something else... and ended up only playing it for a couple of weeks.
I do not believe GW2 will cater to the hardcore crowd because the pve end game is 5man dungeon running and the limited skill bar sets a very low skill cap for competitive pvp.
It will cater to casuals who just wanna chill and zone out though, which makes up a much larger portion of the mmorpg community.
Guild wars 1 had one of the best competetive pvp scenes in the genre with a focus on skill and strategy trumping time spent. In fact, most of the reasons why robertdinh believe will make the game 'casual' are actually the ones that interest the competetive pvp players!
PvE may be different, if 'hardcore' means 'endless grind' Personally i see 'hardcore' as 'skillful play and beating extremley difficult tasks' no-one can argue that taking on the shatterer with a 5 man team is going to be easy, but make that boss 10 times harder and then you'll have some of the hardest dungeons, the dungeons made specifically for these players in mind. It will be the kind of things 'hardcore' players get a kick out of - being able to get stuff that NOBODY else can get without extreme skill
Unfortunately some people believe gw1 pvp had a huge following, in reality, the genre for gw2 (mmorpg) did not even classify gw1 as part of it. GW1 pvp was never taken seriously by top mmorpg pvp guilds it held the weight of something similar to dota or diablo 2 pvp.
A lot of gw1 players are loyal to the game and tend to exaggerate just how challenging the game was, sorta like you can find wow players who will tell you wow pve is harder than any other mmorpg.
I don't think you can say a game has hardcore PvE if its has any instancing/automatic scaling. Teleportation doesn't seem too fun either.
That being said, if they come anywhere close to DAoC PvP then people will take it to an intense level. Too bad your wins and losses aren't really persistant, you just get a new opponent every few weeks, so theres little point to trying to hold the keeps, because you just lose them again.
Unfortunately some people believe gw1 pvp had a huge following, in reality, the genre for gw2 (mmorpg) did not even classify gw1 as part of it. GW1 pvp was never taken seriously by top mmorpg pvp guilds it held the weight of something similar to dota or diablo 2 pvp.
A lot of gw1 players are loyal to the game and tend to exaggerate just how challenging the game was, sorta like you can find wow players who will tell you wow pve is harder than any other mmorpg.
Well, gw1 did do pretty well second best selling mmorpg of all time was it not?
Regardless, a smaller skill bar leads to more forethought about builds and strategy in my opinion, if you feel that lumping all your skills onto 20 hotbars and charging into battle with not a single thought is a better system, then so be it i guess. and that is your opinion Guild wars 2 obviously isn't your cup of tea (as we've already established of course).
Unfortunately some people believe gw1 pvp had a huge following, in reality, the genre for gw2 (mmorpg) did not even classify gw1 as part of it. GW1 pvp was never taken seriously by top mmorpg pvp guilds it held the weight of something similar to dota or diablo 2 pvp.
A lot of gw1 players are loyal to the game and tend to exaggerate just how challenging the game was, sorta like you can find wow players who will tell you wow pve is harder than any other mmorpg.
Well, gw1 did do pretty well second best selling mmorpg of all time was it not?
Regardless, a smaller skill bar leads to more forethought about builds and strategy in my opinion, if you feel that lumping all your skills onto 20 hotbars and charging into battle with not a single thought is a better system, then so be it i guess. and that is your opinion Guild wars 2 obviously isn't your cup of tea (as we've already established of course).
Unfortunately gw1 was not considered an mmorpg, not even by anet themselves. And even if it were, which it is not, it would not have been the second best selling.
Also forethought is all well and good but there must be a balance between quick reflexes/adaptive ability/and pre-planned strategy.
Unfortunately some people believe gw1 pvp had a huge following, in reality, the genre for gw2 (mmorpg) did not even classify gw1 as part of it. GW1 pvp was never taken seriously by top mmorpg pvp guilds it held the weight of something similar to dota or diablo 2 pvp.
A lot of gw1 players are loyal to the game and tend to exaggerate just how challenging the game was, sorta like you can find wow players who will tell you wow pve is harder than any other mmorpg.
I'd have to agree with this, I didn't find GW1 combat remotely "challenging" though at first I really thought the idea of limited skills was fun. Overall it became incredibly boring once you found a skill set that worked for you. Some people would constantly try to chance skills, etc. but the few players I played GW1 with, stayed about as long as I did with each new expansion, just long enough to try the new classes and content.
GW2 will hopefully be different due to the amount of content, but combat wise, I'm afraid it will turn out relatively the same, at least for me.
I'm not the kind of guy who needs 10 action bars filled with 60 abilities, but I like the idea of being able to do different things in a battle without having to revamp my entire skill set.
Unfortunately some people believe gw1 pvp had a huge following, in reality, the genre for gw2 (mmorpg) did not even classify gw1 as part of it. GW1 pvp was never taken seriously by top mmorpg pvp guilds it held the weight of something similar to dota or diablo 2 pvp.
A lot of gw1 players are loyal to the game and tend to exaggerate just how challenging the game was, sorta like you can find wow players who will tell you wow pve is harder than any other mmorpg.
Well, gw1 did do pretty well second best selling mmorpg of all time was it not?
Regardless, a smaller skill bar leads to more forethought about builds and strategy in my opinion, if you feel that lumping all your skills onto 20 hotbars and charging into battle with not a single thought is a better system, then so be it i guess. and that is your opinion Guild wars 2 obviously isn't your cup of tea (as we've already established of course).
Unfortunately gw1 was not considered an mmorpg, not even by anet themselves. And even if it were, which it is not, it would not have been the second best selling.
Also forethought is all well and good but there must be a balance between quick reflexes/adaptive ability/and pre-planned strategy.
GW1 had a low skill cap relative to mmorpg pvp.
Honestly, by the terms they count GW1 sales as being, I doubt it would be even in the top 5.
Unfortunately some people believe gw1 pvp had a huge following, in reality, the genre for gw2 (mmorpg) did not even classify gw1 as part of it. GW1 pvp was never taken seriously by top mmorpg pvp guilds it held the weight of something similar to dota or diablo 2 pvp.
A lot of gw1 players are loyal to the game and tend to exaggerate just how challenging the game was, sorta like you can find wow players who will tell you wow pve is harder than any other mmorpg.
I'd have to agree with this, I didn't find GW1 combat remotely "challenging" though at first I really thought the idea of limited skills was fun. Overall it became incredibly boring once you found a skill set that worked for you. Some people would constantly try to chance skills, etc. but the few players I played GW1 with, stayed about as long as I did with each new expansion, just long enough to try the new classes and content.
GW2 will hopefully be different due to the amount of content, but combat wise, I'm afraid it will turn out relatively the same, at least for me.
I'm not the kind of guy who needs 10 action bars filled with 60 abilities, but I like the idea of being able to do different things in a battle without having to revamp my entire skill set.
With gw2 i think the lasting power will be a bit longer than gw1, as in you will want to play it a bit longer each time you come back to it. However, I do not think it will have the replayability of a lot of popular mmorpgs, where people often play the game full time.
I mean yea you are going to have some people who play gw2 primarily as their main game, but I don't think most people will play it that way.
Unfortunately some people believe gw1 pvp had a huge following, in reality, the genre for gw2 (mmorpg) did not even classify gw1 as part of it. GW1 pvp was never taken seriously by top mmorpg pvp guilds it held the weight of something similar to dota or diablo 2 pvp.
A lot of gw1 players are loyal to the game and tend to exaggerate just how challenging the game was, sorta like you can find wow players who will tell you wow pve is harder than any other mmorpg.
I'd have to agree with this, I didn't find GW1 combat remotely "challenging" though at first I really thought the idea of limited skills was fun. Overall it became incredibly boring once you found a skill set that worked for you. Some people would constantly try to chance skills, etc. but the few players I played GW1 with, stayed about as long as I did with each new expansion, just long enough to try the new classes and content.
GW2 will hopefully be different due to the amount of content, but combat wise, I'm afraid it will turn out relatively the same, at least for me.
I'm not the kind of guy who needs 10 action bars filled with 60 abilities, but I like the idea of being able to do different things in a battle without having to revamp my entire skill set.
With gw2 i think the lasting power will be a bit longer than gw1, as in you will want to play it a bit longer each time you come back to it. However, I do not think it will have the replayability of a lot of popular mmorpgs, where people often play the game full time.
I mean yea you are going to have some people who play gw2 primarily as their main game, but I don't think most people will play it that way.
Indeed, but for only £30 or so you can't go wrong really, if you get 'only' 200 hours out of it that's fantastic value
And hey, if it does turn out to be every bit as good, if not better than other mmo's it's going to be a huge boon for us as consumers. Suddenly companies will be under pressure to either provide vast amounts of content in their sub mmo's or to stop charging subs altogether. Obviously older mmos will probably still get away with it, but i don't feel other, new mmos, will have much of an argument. So as a mmo gamer, gw2 being good will be a fantastic thing.
Unfortunately some people believe gw1 pvp had a huge following, in reality, the genre for gw2 (mmorpg) did not even classify gw1 as part of it. GW1 pvp was never taken seriously by top mmorpg pvp guilds it held the weight of something similar to dota or diablo 2 pvp.
A lot of gw1 players are loyal to the game and tend to exaggerate just how challenging the game was, sorta like you can find wow players who will tell you wow pve is harder than any other mmorpg.
I'd have to agree with this, I didn't find GW1 combat remotely "challenging" though at first I really thought the idea of limited skills was fun. Overall it became incredibly boring once you found a skill set that worked for you. Some people would constantly try to chance skills, etc. but the few players I played GW1 with, stayed about as long as I did with each new expansion, just long enough to try the new classes and content.
GW2 will hopefully be different due to the amount of content, but combat wise, I'm afraid it will turn out relatively the same, at least for me.
I'm not the kind of guy who needs 10 action bars filled with 60 abilities, but I like the idea of being able to do different things in a battle without having to revamp my entire skill set.
With gw2 i think the lasting power will be a bit longer than gw1, as in you will want to play it a bit longer each time you come back to it. However, I do not think it will have the replayability of a lot of popular mmorpgs, where people often play the game full time.
I mean yea you are going to have some people who play gw2 primarily as their main game, but I don't think most people will play it that way.
Indeed, but for only £30 or so you can't go wrong really, if you get 'only' 200 hours out of it that's fantastic value
And hey, if it does turn out to be every bit as good, if not better than other mmo's it's going to be a huge boon for us as consumers. Suddenly companies will be under pressure to either provide vast amounts of content in their sub mmo's or to stop charging subs altogether. Obviously older mmos will probably still get away with it, but i don't feel other, new mmos, will have much of an argument. So as a mmo gamer, gw2 being good will be a fantastic thing.
On the other end of the argument if GW2 does not provide enough content, or the mechanics are not intuitive enough, it will reaffirm the P2P model.
GW1 did not have a lot of content, we will see where GW2 stands, but if people can max out characters quickly and the end-game is 5man pve and competitive pvp, that isn't going to compete well with other mmorpgs, as pvers make up the bulk of the market, and 5man pve does not really cater to the MMO aspect of MMORPGs.
My guess is pretty much every hardcore MMO player will try GW2, some may even stick around to play for a long time but as a casual player do I really wan them to? To keep hardcore PvE players around it seems that you have to put in large scale scripted encounters that require considerable chunks of contigous time to complete, yielding rewards that ideally unbalances the heavily in favor of whoever spends lots of time in game. Hardcore PvP players seem to be more geared towards smaller unit fighting and not necessarily contigous chunks of time, shouting at the top of their lungs for "decent rewards" that translate into a steep gear/power curve to avoid the chance that players putting in less time may accidentally outplay them by simply utilizing their resources better (this would be known as being more skilled in other endeavours but since skill has been defined as having more and better gear/powerups in MMO's this gets very confusing).
Personally it sounds to me like the hardcore players that are into challenges will likely find the PvE encounters challenging for a limited time but if the scenarios are decided simply by better coordination/utilization of resources they should stay challenging for a long time to come (especially if there is the option of matching premades to premades). WvWvW should also add a lot of longevity to PvP oriented players in general if it's done right (ie. captures the essence of DAOC in a modern MMO setting with more accessibility, people (including me) may say they want it to play like DAOC but for me at least I suspect I would be much happier with the essence of DAOC in a much more accessible form... maybe I'm just too old for 3am relic raids...
On the other end of the argument if GW2 does not provide enough content, or the mechanics are not intuitive enough, it will reaffirm the P2P model.
GW1 did not have a lot of content, we will see where GW2 stands, but if people can max out characters quickly and the end-game is 5man pve and competitive pvp, that isn't going to compete well with other mmorpgs, as pvers make up the bulk of the market, and 5man pve does not really cater to the MMO aspect of MMORPGs.
Sure if you are comparing GW2 to mainstream MMO's then it won't compare at all. It looks to play more like an action type game than an MMO.
I disagree with the 5 man PVE notion. 5 man allows smaller groups to go through the same or similar content without the need to Pug as would be traditional if they were not part of a large guild / alliance. This part applies only to raids. The rest of the game is open to single or group play, after all that stuff scales.
I am sure that GW2 probably won't appeal to the Hardcore PVE as they tend to focus on the endgame specifically the elite raids for item drops. GW2 loot mechanic doesn't work like this. Hardcore also tends toward the grind side of MMO's so again GW2 with its anit-grind probably won't appeal to these players long term. This is not to say they won't purchase it and try it. After all thats what Anet wants is box sales. Once they have it the game will sell itself. The purchases either will like it or not.
Again there is much that differs in GW2 to mainstream MMORPG. GW2 is a deliberate break from the mould. They aren't trying to be like every other MMO. The game appeals to many and because of that some MMO players may not find GW2 exclusive enough.
As for the endgame and 5 man raids. Probably best to wait and see seeing there is zero info this to date.
On the other end of the argument if GW2 does not provide enough content, or the mechanics are not intuitive enough, it will reaffirm the P2P model.
GW1 did not have a lot of content, we will see where GW2 stands, but if people can max out characters quickly and the end-game is 5man pve and competitive pvp, that isn't going to compete well with other mmorpgs, as pvers make up the bulk of the market, and 5man pve does not really cater to the MMO aspect of MMORPGs.
Sure if you are comparing GW2 to mainstream MMO's then it won't compare at all. It looks to play more like an action type game than an MMO.
I disagree with the 5 man PVE notion. 5 man allows smaller groups to go through the same or similar content without the need to Pug as would be traditional if they were not part of a large guild / alliance. This part applies only to raids. The rest of the game is open to single or group play, after all that stuff scales.
I am sure that GW2 probably won't appeal to the Hardcore PVE as they tend to focus on the endgame specifically the elite raids for item drops. GW2 loot mechanic doesn't work like this. Hardcore also tends toward the grind side of MMO's so again GW2 with its anit-grind probably won't appeal to these players long term. This is not to say they won't purchase it and try it. After all thats what Anet wants is box sales. Once they have it the game will sell itself. The purchases either will like it or not.
Again there is much that differs in GW2 to mainstream MMORPG. GW2 is a deliberate break from the mould. They aren't trying to be like every other MMO. The game appeals to many and because of that some MMO players may not find GW2 exclusive enough.
As for the endgame and 5 man raids. Probably best to wait and see seeing there is zero info this to date.
The game may be constructed in a way where all the elements are put together to make gw2 into gw2 instead of wow.
I don't really agree that it is a break from the mold though, to me it is doing exactly what wow has done, but to a lesser extent because it isn't as well funded and doesn't use the same payment model. Basically just make everything casual friendly and polished and see how many fish you can reel in. Which is fine, every person that likes playing games deserves a game that caters to them, it just isn't really all that groundbreaking.
On the other end of the argument if GW2 does not provide enough content, or the mechanics are not intuitive enough, it will reaffirm the P2P model.
GW1 did not have a lot of content, we will see where GW2 stands, but if people can max out characters quickly and the end-game is 5man pve and competitive pvp, that isn't going to compete well with other mmorpgs, as pvers make up the bulk of the market, and 5man pve does not really cater to the MMO aspect of MMORPGs.
Sure if you are comparing GW2 to mainstream MMO's then it won't compare at all. It looks to play more like an action type game than an MMO.
I disagree with the 5 man PVE notion. 5 man allows smaller groups to go through the same or similar content without the need to Pug as would be traditional if they were not part of a large guild / alliance. This part applies only to raids. The rest of the game is open to single or group play, after all that stuff scales.
I am sure that GW2 probably won't appeal to the Hardcore PVE as they tend to focus on the endgame specifically the elite raids for item drops. GW2 loot mechanic doesn't work like this. Hardcore also tends toward the grind side of MMO's so again GW2 with its anit-grind probably won't appeal to these players long term. This is not to say they won't purchase it and try it. After all thats what Anet wants is box sales. Once they have it the game will sell itself. The purchases either will like it or not.
Again there is much that differs in GW2 to mainstream MMORPG. GW2 is a deliberate break from the mould. They aren't trying to be like every other MMO. The game appeals to many and because of that some MMO players may not find GW2 exclusive enough.
As for the endgame and 5 man raids. Probably best to wait and see seeing there is zero info this to date.
The game may be constructed in a way where all the elements are put together to make gw2 into gw2 instead of wow.
I don't really agree that it is a break from the mold though, to me it is doing exactly what wow has done, but to a lesser extent because it isn't as well funded and doesn't use the same payment model. Basically just make everything casual friendly and polished and see how many fish you can reel in. Which is fine, every person that likes playing games deserves a game that caters to them, it just isn't really all that groundbreaking.
I don't think anyone's arguing that it's the messiah of mmo's but it is definitely more 'breaking the mould' than games like ToR, which seem intent on copying wow exactly and tacking on a story. Guild wars 2 will share fundamentals with traditional MMORPG's, but at least it tries to mix thing up a little.
games don't suddenly jump in terms of construction, they are build up over time. Guild wars 2 looks like it's trying to evolve the genre with regards to the social aspect (MMO's aren't social until the very end, i personally hate seeing anyone where i'm having to kill 200 rats, because they steal the rats, it's how mmo's always are. I only enjoy mmo's with RL friends because in game it's all pvp all the time (even in pve!)). If it works it'll be great and even if it isn't as content rich as 6 year old p2p mmo's it'll give them food for thought on what mechanics really work and improve the game.
The hype for this game isn't actually for the game itself, I feel it's for it's attempt to finally evolve this genre that's been getting gradually wose and more stagnant since 2004. I used to love mmo's, now gw1 is the only one i can stand because it's all just the same otherwise. I'm not going to play for 4000 [quick note: that's easily enough time to get a 1st class degree in something like physics learning from GCSE onwards, yet how many '1337' wow players have anything to show out of it?] hours to to become really competetive at anything. I have life to attend to as well
On the other end of the argument if GW2 does not provide enough content, or the mechanics are not intuitive enough, it will reaffirm the P2P model.
GW1 did not have a lot of content, we will see where GW2 stands, but if people can max out characters quickly and the end-game is 5man pve and competitive pvp, that isn't going to compete well with other mmorpgs, as pvers make up the bulk of the market, and 5man pve does not really cater to the MMO aspect of MMORPGs.
Sure if you are comparing GW2 to mainstream MMO's then it won't compare at all. It looks to play more like an action type game than an MMO.
I disagree with the 5 man PVE notion. 5 man allows smaller groups to go through the same or similar content without the need to Pug as would be traditional if they were not part of a large guild / alliance. This part applies only to raids. The rest of the game is open to single or group play, after all that stuff scales.
I am sure that GW2 probably won't appeal to the Hardcore PVE as they tend to focus on the endgame specifically the elite raids for item drops. GW2 loot mechanic doesn't work like this. Hardcore also tends toward the grind side of MMO's so again GW2 with its anit-grind probably won't appeal to these players long term. This is not to say they won't purchase it and try it. After all thats what Anet wants is box sales. Once they have it the game will sell itself. The purchases either will like it or not.
Again there is much that differs in GW2 to mainstream MMORPG. GW2 is a deliberate break from the mould. They aren't trying to be like every other MMO. The game appeals to many and because of that some MMO players may not find GW2 exclusive enough.
As for the endgame and 5 man raids. Probably best to wait and see seeing there is zero info this to date.
The game may be constructed in a way where all the elements are put together to make gw2 into gw2 instead of wow.
I don't really agree that it is a break from the mold though, to me it is doing exactly what wow has done, but to a lesser extent because it isn't as well funded and doesn't use the same payment model. Basically just make everything casual friendly and polished and see how many fish you can reel in. Which is fine, every person that likes playing games deserves a game that caters to them, it just isn't really all that groundbreaking.
I don't think anyone's arguing that it's the messiah of mmo's but it is definitely more 'breaking the mould' than games like ToR, which seem intent on copying wow exactly and tacking on a story. Guild wars 2 will share fundamentals with traditional MMORPG's, but at least it tries to mix thing up a little.
games don't suddenly jump in terms of construction, they are build up over time. Guild wars 2 looks like it's trying to evolve the genre with regards to the social aspect (MMO's aren't social until the very end, i personally hate seeing anyone where i'm having to kill 200 rats, because they steal the rats, it's how mmo's always are. I only enjoy mmo's with RL friends because in game it's all pvp all the time (even in pve!)). If it works it'll be great and even if it isn't as content rich as 6 year old p2p mmo's it'll give them food for thought on what mechanics really work and improve the game.
The hype for this game isn't actually for the game itself, I feel it's for it's attempt to finally evolve this genre that's been getting gradually wose and more stagnant since 2004. I used to love mmo's, now gw1 is the only one i can stand because it's all just the same otherwise. I'm not going to play for 4000 [quick note: that's easily enough time to get a 1st class degree in something like physics learning from GCSE onwards, yet how many '1337' wow players have anything to show out of it?] hours to to become really competetive at anything. I have life to attend to as well
Well from an objective point of view it actually does seem like a lot of fans, and also anet themselves are trying endorse the game as a messiah of mmos. Basically anet attacked a lot of fundamental mechanics found in mmos, and then tried to convey that they are doing things differently, but under all the fluff a lot of it is very similar. Harpy glands and dynamic event alerters for example.
Unfortunately some people believe gw1 pvp had a huge following, in reality, the genre for gw2 (mmorpg) did not even classify gw1 as part of it. GW1 pvp was never taken seriously by top mmorpg pvp guilds it held the weight of something similar to dota or diablo 2 pvp.
A lot of gw1 players are loyal to the game and tend to exaggerate just how challenging the game was, sorta like you can find wow players who will tell you wow pve is harder than any other mmorpg.
Well, gw1 did do pretty well second best selling mmorpg of all time was it not?
Regardless, a smaller skill bar leads to more forethought about builds and strategy in my opinion, if you feel that lumping all your skills onto 20 hotbars and charging into battle with not a single thought is a better system, then so be it i guess. and that is your opinion Guild wars 2 obviously isn't your cup of tea (as we've already established of course).
Unfortunately gw1 was not considered an mmorpg, not even by anet themselves. And even if it were, which it is not, it would not have been the second best selling.
Also forethought is all well and good but there must be a balance between quick reflexes/adaptive ability/and pre-planned strategy.
Unfortunately some people believe gw1 pvp had a huge following, in reality, the genre for gw2 (mmorpg) did not even classify gw1 as part of it. GW1 pvp was never taken seriously by top mmorpg pvp guilds it held the weight of something similar to dota or diablo 2 pvp.
A lot of gw1 players are loyal to the game and tend to exaggerate just how challenging the game was, sorta like you can find wow players who will tell you wow pve is harder than any other mmorpg.
Well, gw1 did do pretty well second best selling mmorpg of all time was it not?
Regardless, a smaller skill bar leads to more forethought about builds and strategy in my opinion, if you feel that lumping all your skills onto 20 hotbars and charging into battle with not a single thought is a better system, then so be it i guess. and that is your opinion Guild wars 2 obviously isn't your cup of tea (as we've already established of course).
Unfortunately gw1 was not considered an mmorpg, not even by anet themselves. And even if it were, which it is not, it would not have been the second best selling.
Also forethought is all well and good but there must be a balance between quick reflexes/adaptive ability/and pre-planned strategy.
GW1 had a low skill cap relative to mmorpg pvp.
that is funny
I find it funny as well since there are so many gw1 players that swear by it, but I played gw pvp at a top level and it wasn't even as challenging as roaming pvp in most mmorpgs. People just need to get exposed to more games I guess.
I find funny that you equate skill with mmorpg pvp. There is nothing skilful when there is a gear diferential. In order for skill to shine there must be balance on all sides, that means gear and other timesink functions of game are nonexistent. When everyone is on an equal playing field then you can account for skill.
Unfortunately some people believe gw1 pvp had a huge following, in reality, the genre for gw2 (mmorpg) did not even classify gw1 as part of it. GW1 pvp was never taken seriously by top mmorpg pvp guilds it held the weight of something similar to dota or diablo 2 pvp.
A lot of gw1 players are loyal to the game and tend to exaggerate just how challenging the game was, sorta like you can find wow players who will tell you wow pve is harder than any other mmorpg.
Just to be clear, are we talking about hardcore players or hardcore rulesets for PvP?
I find your underlined comment odd. Who are these "top mmorpg pvp guilds"? I was a member in one of GW1's top guilds and took part in, Guild Wars World Championships, among other tournaments and I can tell you, it was pretty hardcore. There wasn't any sponsors involved, not that I know of, but sponsors for gaming clan's were very rare and very new back then.
The point of GW's combat, and where they succeeded admirably, was that it was "easy to learn hard to master."
I have witnessed an instance where we had three guilds (once the three best of EU timezone infact) from GW1 who formed one guild in WAR and then play it together. There was a pretty hardcore guild on the other side against us. For example, they had strict rules how many hours they had to play the game every week (was much. something like 4-6 hours a day minimum - more on weekends) etc. They seemed to have somewhat of a reputation in the WAR scene.
So what happened when we took them on in the scenarios? -We beat them, run over them to be precise. Even when they exploited the early skills that were bugged, we beat them. Ofcourse in RvR the beat us because they had twice the numbers we did, and numbers count more than skill.
In the end, many quit after the first month because the high-end PvP in WAR was somewhat of a disappointment and it had some serious issues with bugs and balance. I guess the lack of structured, competitive PvP was a contributing factor aswell.
I'm fairly certain these gamers are pretty hardcore. Many have experience in high-end clans in other games such as TF2, Counter Strike, Starcraft for the koreans (I guess) and the like.
And for the record, the game was a lot more challenging when it first released, but I believe Anet had to tone it down because many found it too hard. After some time they settled with the system where one could choose to do missions/areas in hard-mode if one wanted to. I'm talking about PvE ofcourse.
It is true that 90-95% of GW1's players were mainly focused on the PvE aspect of it but the PvP scene was hardly small or light-weight. People did actually compete in tournaments where they could win real-life prizes. That fact alone attracts competitive, hardcore PvP crowd. To this day, I find GW's arena style PvP to be best of its kind.
So where are these "hardcore PvP guilds of MMORPGs"? Even WoW didn't have same kind of competitive tournaments before GW1 showed them how popular they were.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Unfortunately some people believe gw1 pvp had a huge following, in reality, the genre for gw2 (mmorpg) did not even classify gw1 as part of it. GW1 pvp was never taken seriously by top mmorpg pvp guilds it held the weight of something similar to dota or diablo 2 pvp.
A lot of gw1 players are loyal to the game and tend to exaggerate just how challenging the game was, sorta like you can find wow players who will tell you wow pve is harder than any other mmorpg.
Just to be clear, are we talking about hardcore players or hardcore rulesets for PvP?
I find your underlined comment odd. Who are these "top mmorpg pvp guilds"? I was a member in one of GW1's top guilds and took part in, Guild Wars World Championships, among other tournaments and I can tell you, it was pretty hardcore. There wasn't any sponsors involved, not that I know of, but sponsors for gaming clan's were very rare and very new back then.
The point of GW's combat, and where they succeeded admirably, was that it was "easy to learn hard to master."
I have witnessed an instance where we had three guilds (once the three best of EU timezone infact) from GW1 who formed one guild in WAR and then play it together. There was a pretty hardcore guild on the other side against us. For example, they had strict rules how many hours they had to play the game every week (was much. something like 4-6 hours a day minimum - more on weekends) etc. They seemed to have somewhat of a reputation in the WAR scene.
So what happened when we took them on in the scenarios? -We beat them, run over them to be precise. Even when they exploited the early skills that were bugged, we beat them. Ofcourse in RvR the beat us because they had twice the numbers we did, and numbers count more than skill.
In the end, many quit after the first month because the high-end PvP in WAR was somewhat of a disappointment and it had some serious issues with bugs and balance. I guess the lack of structured, competitive PvP was a contributing factor aswell.
I'm fairly certain these gamers are pretty hardcore. Many have experience in high-end clans in other games such as TF2, Counter Strike, Starcraft for the koreans (I guess) and the like.
And for the record, the game was a lot more challenging when it first released, but I believe Anet had to tone it down because many found it too hard. After some time they settled with the system where one could choose to do missions/areas in hard-mode if one wanted to. I'm talking about PvE ofcourse.
It is true that 90-95% of GW1's players were mainly focused on the PvE aspect of it but the PvP scene was hardly small or light-weight. People did actually compete in tournaments where they could win real-life prizes. That fact alone attracts competitive, hardcore PvP crowd. To this day, I find GW's arena style PvP to be best of its kind.
So where are these "hardcore PvP guilds of MMORPGs"? Even WoW didn't have same kind of competitive tournaments before GW1 showed them how popular they were.
You are misinformed if you think GW1 popularized the arena format, and is the reason for arena tournaments. That would be like saying coutnerstrike popularized gw1 pvp.
As I said before a lot of gw1 players like to exaggerate the impact their game had, the mmorpg market doesn't even really pay attention to gw1 whatsoever, hell most of the players didn't even know anything about gw1. It's a complete nonfactor to wow players.
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Thats the joy as it its a one time payment, means the hardcores can sub on something else while playing GW 2
If the pvp is right i'll be there, as I'd imagine many other 'hardcore' pvpers will.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I would like to add that what he said about "wow kiddies migrating to GW2" is one of the most idiotic conclusions I have ever heard.
And if they do, they will go back to WoW straight away or try another PVE oriented game.
I know that PVE queens or PVE centrics wont even tough GW2 and that is a fact.
At first you will see a heck of a lot players from every single type of MMO[rpg], massively QQing in forums and then leaving the masses that mostly enjoy a PVP oriented game with fun-based PVE elements. And a live dynamic-event system is a perfect system for PVPers to enjoy.
Not sure why some individuals are so quick to bash one of the greatest PVP-oriented games. Seems to me that PVP is not welcomed and it is your choice; but leave the rest to enjoy it as it was supposed to be.
My two cents.
Outside of forums i've found the opposite to be true thankfully. Guild Wars was never a game i got into, my girlfriend at the time bought it and then the subsequent expansions and it was sort of 'her game' that i didn't interfere in for want of a better phrase. I should really have got into it regardless but somehow i never did.
Over the years the various people that joined our guild in various PvP games such as AoC almost all of them had nothing but positive things to say about guild wars, even those who loved games like Lineage. I go onto forums such as this and others and it tends to be a much more mixed bag of people who either hated it or loved it, but for it's genre and to people who love PvP it's very rare i hear anything bad said about it directly from people's own mouths.
The next time they do a sale on GW on Steam i should probably pick the various ones up, i nearly did the last time but stupidly opted for something else... and ended up only playing it for a couple of weeks.
I do not believe GW2 will cater to the hardcore crowd because the pve end game is 5man dungeon running and the limited skill bar sets a very low skill cap for competitive pvp.
It will cater to casuals who just wanna chill and zone out though, which makes up a much larger portion of the mmorpg community.
Guild wars 1 had one of the best competetive pvp scenes in the genre
with a focus on skill and strategy trumping time spent. In fact, most of the reasons why robertdinh believe will make the game 'casual' are actually the ones that interest the competetive pvp players!
PvE may be different, if 'hardcore' means 'endless grind'
Personally i see 'hardcore' as 'skillful play and beating extremley difficult tasks' no-one can argue that taking on the shatterer with a 5 man team is going to be easy, but make that boss 10 times harder and then you'll have some of the hardest dungeons, the dungeons made specifically for these players in mind. It will be the kind of things 'hardcore' players get a kick out of - being able to get stuff that NOBODY else can get without extreme skill 
Unfortunately some people believe gw1 pvp had a huge following, in reality, the genre for gw2 (mmorpg) did not even classify gw1 as part of it. GW1 pvp was never taken seriously by top mmorpg pvp guilds it held the weight of something similar to dota or diablo 2 pvp.
A lot of gw1 players are loyal to the game and tend to exaggerate just how challenging the game was, sorta like you can find wow players who will tell you wow pve is harder than any other mmorpg.
I don't think you can say a game has hardcore PvE if its has any instancing/automatic scaling. Teleportation doesn't seem too fun either.
That being said, if they come anywhere close to DAoC PvP then people will take it to an intense level. Too bad your wins and losses aren't really persistant, you just get a new opponent every few weeks, so theres little point to trying to hold the keeps, because you just lose them again.
Well, gw1 did do pretty well
second best selling mmorpg of all time was it not?
Regardless, a smaller skill bar leads to more forethought about builds and strategy in my opinion, if you feel that lumping all your skills onto 20 hotbars and charging into battle with not a single thought is a better system, then so be it i guess. and that is your opinion Guild wars 2 obviously isn't your cup of tea (as we've already established of course).
Unfortunately gw1 was not considered an mmorpg, not even by anet themselves. And even if it were, which it is not, it would not have been the second best selling.
Also forethought is all well and good but there must be a balance between quick reflexes/adaptive ability/and pre-planned strategy.
GW1 had a low skill cap relative to mmorpg pvp.
I'd have to agree with this, I didn't find GW1 combat remotely "challenging" though at first I really thought the idea of limited skills was fun. Overall it became incredibly boring once you found a skill set that worked for you. Some people would constantly try to chance skills, etc. but the few players I played GW1 with, stayed about as long as I did with each new expansion, just long enough to try the new classes and content.
GW2 will hopefully be different due to the amount of content, but combat wise, I'm afraid it will turn out relatively the same, at least for me.
I'm not the kind of guy who needs 10 action bars filled with 60 abilities, but I like the idea of being able to do different things in a battle without having to revamp my entire skill set.
Honestly, by the terms they count GW1 sales as being, I doubt it would be even in the top 5.
With gw2 i think the lasting power will be a bit longer than gw1, as in you will want to play it a bit longer each time you come back to it. However, I do not think it will have the replayability of a lot of popular mmorpgs, where people often play the game full time.
I mean yea you are going to have some people who play gw2 primarily as their main game, but I don't think most people will play it that way.
Indeed, but for only £30 or so you can't go wrong really, if you get 'only' 200 hours out of it that's fantastic value
And hey, if it does turn out to be every bit as good, if not better than other mmo's it's going to be a huge boon for us as consumers. Suddenly companies will be under pressure to either provide vast amounts of content in their sub mmo's or to stop charging subs altogether. Obviously older mmos will probably still get away with it, but i don't feel other, new mmos, will have much of an argument. So as a mmo gamer, gw2 being good will be a fantastic thing.
On the other end of the argument if GW2 does not provide enough content, or the mechanics are not intuitive enough, it will reaffirm the P2P model.
GW1 did not have a lot of content, we will see where GW2 stands, but if people can max out characters quickly and the end-game is 5man pve and competitive pvp, that isn't going to compete well with other mmorpgs, as pvers make up the bulk of the market, and 5man pve does not really cater to the MMO aspect of MMORPGs.
My guess is pretty much every hardcore MMO player will try GW2, some may even stick around to play for a long time but as a casual player do I really wan them to? To keep hardcore PvE players around it seems that you have to put in large scale scripted encounters that require considerable chunks of contigous time to complete, yielding rewards that ideally unbalances the heavily in favor of whoever spends lots of time in game. Hardcore PvP players seem to be more geared towards smaller unit fighting and not necessarily contigous chunks of time, shouting at the top of their lungs for "decent rewards" that translate into a steep gear/power curve to avoid the chance that players putting in less time may accidentally outplay them by simply utilizing their resources better (this would be known as being more skilled in other endeavours but since skill has been defined as having more and better gear/powerups in MMO's this gets very confusing).
Personally it sounds to me like the hardcore players that are into challenges will likely find the PvE encounters challenging for a limited time but if the scenarios are decided simply by better coordination/utilization of resources they should stay challenging for a long time to come (especially if there is the option of matching premades to premades). WvWvW should also add a lot of longevity to PvP oriented players in general if it's done right (ie. captures the essence of DAOC in a modern MMO setting with more accessibility, people (including me) may say they want it to play like DAOC but for me at least I suspect I would be much happier with the essence of DAOC in a much more accessible form... maybe I'm just too old for 3am relic raids...
Sure if you are comparing GW2 to mainstream MMO's then it won't compare at all. It looks to play more like an action type game than an MMO.
I disagree with the 5 man PVE notion. 5 man allows smaller groups to go through the same or similar content without the need to Pug as would be traditional if they were not part of a large guild / alliance. This part applies only to raids. The rest of the game is open to single or group play, after all that stuff scales.
I am sure that GW2 probably won't appeal to the Hardcore PVE as they tend to focus on the endgame specifically the elite raids for item drops. GW2 loot mechanic doesn't work like this. Hardcore also tends toward the grind side of MMO's so again GW2 with its anit-grind probably won't appeal to these players long term. This is not to say they won't purchase it and try it. After all thats what Anet wants is box sales. Once they have it the game will sell itself. The purchases either will like it or not.
Again there is much that differs in GW2 to mainstream MMORPG. GW2 is a deliberate break from the mould. They aren't trying to be like every other MMO. The game appeals to many and because of that some MMO players may not find GW2 exclusive enough.
As for the endgame and 5 man raids. Probably best to wait and see seeing there is zero info this to date.
The game may be constructed in a way where all the elements are put together to make gw2 into gw2 instead of wow.
I don't really agree that it is a break from the mold though, to me it is doing exactly what wow has done, but to a lesser extent because it isn't as well funded and doesn't use the same payment model. Basically just make everything casual friendly and polished and see how many fish you can reel in. Which is fine, every person that likes playing games deserves a game that caters to them, it just isn't really all that groundbreaking.
I don't think anyone's arguing that it's the messiah of mmo's
but it is definitely more 'breaking the mould' than games like ToR, which seem intent on copying wow exactly and tacking on a story. Guild wars 2 will share fundamentals with traditional MMORPG's, but at least it tries to mix thing up a little.
games don't suddenly jump in terms of construction, they are build up over time. Guild wars 2 looks like it's trying to evolve the genre with regards to the social aspect (MMO's aren't social until the very end, i personally hate seeing anyone where i'm having to kill 200 rats, because they steal the rats, it's how mmo's always are. I only enjoy mmo's with RL friends because in game it's all pvp all the time (even in pve!)). If it works it'll be great and even if it isn't as content rich as 6 year old p2p mmo's it'll give them food for thought on what mechanics really work and improve the game.
The hype for this game isn't actually for the game itself, I feel it's for it's attempt to finally evolve this genre that's been getting gradually wose and more stagnant since 2004. I used to love mmo's, now gw1 is the only one i can stand because it's all just the same otherwise. I'm not going to play for 4000 [quick note: that's easily enough time to get a 1st class degree in something like physics learning from GCSE onwards, yet how many '1337' wow players have anything to show out of it?] hours to to become really competetive at anything. I have life to attend to as well
Well from an objective point of view it actually does seem like a lot of fans, and also anet themselves are trying endorse the game as a messiah of mmos. Basically anet attacked a lot of fundamental mechanics found in mmos, and then tried to convey that they are doing things differently, but under all the fluff a lot of it is very similar. Harpy glands and dynamic event alerters for example.
that is funny
I find it funny as well since there are so many gw1 players that swear by it, but I played gw pvp at a top level and it wasn't even as challenging as roaming pvp in most mmorpgs. People just need to get exposed to more games I guess.
I find funny that you equate skill with mmorpg pvp. There is nothing skilful when there is a gear diferential. In order for skill to shine there must be balance on all sides, that means gear and other timesink functions of game are nonexistent. When everyone is on an equal playing field then you can account for skill.
Just to be clear, are we talking about hardcore players or hardcore rulesets for PvP?
I find your underlined comment odd. Who are these "top mmorpg pvp guilds"? I was a member in one of GW1's top guilds and took part in, Guild Wars World Championships, among other tournaments and I can tell you, it was pretty hardcore. There wasn't any sponsors involved, not that I know of, but sponsors for gaming clan's were very rare and very new back then.
The point of GW's combat, and where they succeeded admirably, was that it was "easy to learn hard to master."
I have witnessed an instance where we had three guilds (once the three best of EU timezone infact) from GW1 who formed one guild in WAR and then play it together. There was a pretty hardcore guild on the other side against us. For example, they had strict rules how many hours they had to play the game every week (was much. something like 4-6 hours a day minimum - more on weekends) etc. They seemed to have somewhat of a reputation in the WAR scene.
So what happened when we took them on in the scenarios? -We beat them, run over them to be precise. Even when they exploited the early skills that were bugged, we beat them. Ofcourse in RvR the beat us because they had twice the numbers we did, and numbers count more than skill.
In the end, many quit after the first month because the high-end PvP in WAR was somewhat of a disappointment and it had some serious issues with bugs and balance. I guess the lack of structured, competitive PvP was a contributing factor aswell.
I'm fairly certain these gamers are pretty hardcore. Many have experience in high-end clans in other games such as TF2, Counter Strike, Starcraft for the koreans (I guess) and the like.
And for the record, the game was a lot more challenging when it first released, but I believe Anet had to tone it down because many found it too hard. After some time they settled with the system where one could choose to do missions/areas in hard-mode if one wanted to. I'm talking about PvE ofcourse.
It is true that 90-95% of GW1's players were mainly focused on the PvE aspect of it but the PvP scene was hardly small or light-weight. People did actually compete in tournaments where they could win real-life prizes. That fact alone attracts competitive, hardcore PvP crowd. To this day, I find GW's arena style PvP to be best of its kind.
So where are these "hardcore PvP guilds of MMORPGs"? Even WoW didn't have same kind of competitive tournaments before GW1 showed them how popular they were.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
You are misinformed if you think GW1 popularized the arena format, and is the reason for arena tournaments. That would be like saying coutnerstrike popularized gw1 pvp.
As I said before a lot of gw1 players like to exaggerate the impact their game had, the mmorpg market doesn't even really pay attention to gw1 whatsoever, hell most of the players didn't even know anything about gw1. It's a complete nonfactor to wow players.