Ok come on. This is sony! The makers of EQ, and Vangaurd. In my opinion the company knows what it is doing. But it's not the programers that want to rush the launch. it's the people forking the bill. My faith is in sony,this isn't there first rodeo.,And this isn't just any launch. I'm sure they'll cross there T's and dot there I's/
Actually Everquest and Vanguard were created by other studios and later purchased by SOE. Both of which had Brad McQuaid in charge of designing the game. Everquest was already a huge success before SOE was even created.
To the question above about betas in the last 8 years, I honestly wouldn't know. I had no clue what a beta was 8 years ago when it came to MMO's. If you can name an MMO that you participated in a huge open beta like it is today, thats currently successful, than go for it. I can't :P
Try a little harder. The most successful MMO today had a large open AND closed beta. Closed Betas have been pretty dang important in all successful MMOs, and I don't think there is one successful MMO that hasn't had significant closed beta use (I certainly can't think of one, both LotRO and Eve had them, for instance).
Remember, DCUO hasn't even started a closed beta yet, and it is due out in just about a month. And while a good closed beta is no guarantee of a quality product, it is still a necessary component of a quality MMO.
Frankly, I don't understand the celebration of ignorance about DCUO. "Yay', they aren't telling us basic facts about the game!" or "Hurrah! We only have some info we can scrap together, with whole systems that will supposedly be in the game -- secret idenity -- largely left in the dark!" It's HIGHLY ILLOGICAL to think this is actually a good sign.
Well we can look at this two ways. Lets take games like Champions Online, MxO, Vanguard, WAR, etc. and look at their "closed beta" experiences. Most of the time what we have is less users gametesting and more users focused on Gamechanging and gameplaying. When this happens the feedback developers usually get ends up being more akin to what they would expect from focus and playtesting groups rather then BETA testing.
In CO, yeah I spent a lot of time putting in bug requests, but I also spent a lot of time on the beta forums arguing about what needs to be changed for the game to feel "complete" and "fun" to me. I did this more out of response to other posters that were far more critical on the game changing aspects then the complete testing aspects.
I think in that case developers end up getting a lot of mixed signals for what they may have believed was a solid direction for their game design. Many BETA players are so interested in making the game for themselves their criticisms can only go so far as to steer the game away from the intended direction, and then they'll get angry when the developers don't listen to their "wonderful ideas" or other players may not like the changes. Its a volatile system, most closed betas these days.
I think a short closed or open beta wouldn't be a bad idea if SOE is confident in their direction with this title. Sure everyone believes their opinion is valid in creating a "game worth playing" but this subgenre isn't meant for everyone anyway. Maybe the game will have tons of problems, or maybe the videos I've seen are accurate. I guess only time will tell.
Then SOE's overconfidence is their weakness.
(Oh, and I noticed you only picked BAD games on the other side of the argument. Good games require a balance of beta feedback and vision).
Well, lets be honest, we've seen plenty of games release TONS of information only to end up being a "bad" game, yet we have very little in the way of MMORPGs releasing small amounts of information, launching, and failing. I really don't know of any MMOs that really launched in that fashion before, and most of the games that did have missing pieces of information still ended up with an open beta, akin to the one I'm expecting to see very shortly here.
Maybe their weakness is overconfidence, but maybe instead they are trying to create an untainted vision based on local playtesting then a range of players from the "beta crowd". Take a look around you on this site, we are the MMORPG followers, would YOU entrust US with giving you honest feedback to steer your game towards success?
I'd like to see what SOE was able to come up with. The game probably won't be perfect, but what game is? Though I don't think overconfidence is what they suffer from, IF overconfidence was their weakness I think I'd be able to live with that. I don't think it would be too far off the mark to say, everyone has their kryptonite. (you see what I did there?)
(Oh, and I noticed you only picked BAD games on the other side of the argument. Good games require a balance of beta feedback and vision).
Well, lets be honest, we've seen plenty of games release TONS of information only to end up being a "bad" game, yet we have very little in the way of MMORPGs releasing small amounts of information, launching, and failing. I really don't know of any MMOs that really launched in that fashion before, and most of the games that did have missing pieces of information still ended up with an open beta, akin to the one I'm expecting to see very shortly here.
Maybe their weakness is overconfidence, but maybe instead they are trying to create an untainted vision based on local playtesting then a range of players from the "beta crowd". Take a look around you on this site, we are the MMORPG followers, would YOU entrust US with giving you honest feedback to steer your game towards success?
I'd like to see what SOE was able to come up with. The game probably won't be perfect, but what game is? Though I don't think overconfidence is what they suffer from, IF overconfidence was their weakness I think I'd be able to live with that. I don't think it would be too far off the mark to say, everyone has their kryptonite. (you see what I did there?)
Eh, I purposefully hand you a quote like that, and you don't respond with something like "And your faith in a beta is yours!" Hmm. Not sure you are allowed to post on Star Wars forums anymore.
Anyhow, the fact is frankly that no MMO has ever done well with short closed beta. That's just how it is. Are we supposed to trust SOE's spotty record to bring a good game? Does having poor information release mean it is a good game? At BEST it means nothing. Note this is indeed POOR information release, since features that they mentioned in passing aren't being talked about at all. Does having bad marketing mean this is going to be good?
You know, when I see a major company provide poor marketing, poor information, and no beta for a game, that doesn't indicate anything positive, nor should it. Big companies know how to sell games and generate interest, and the fact they haven't been doing that much for DCUO shouldn't strike anyone as a positive thing. At best it is something completely disconnected from the quality of the DCUO...at best. There's no good reason to have developed a really good game and then market it so poorly (so at best the marketing division just completely sucks).
Anyhow, MMO beta testers are from a larger pool than this forum. Even so, the people on the forum wouldn't be a horrible group to judge a game overall. They are quite capable of report bugs in the like, and statistical analysis could be done on what parts of the game they enjoyed (based on what parts were used and how frequently per person, etc). No one has advocated letting such people directly dictate game features.
Well, lets be honest, we've seen plenty of games release TONS of information only to end up being a "bad" game, yet we have very little in the way of MMORPGs releasing small amounts of information, launching, and failing. I really don't know of any MMOs that really launched in that fashion before, and most of the games that did have missing pieces of information still ended up with an open beta, akin to the one I'm expecting to see very shortly here.
Maybe their weakness is overconfidence, but maybe instead they are trying to create an untainted vision based on local playtesting then a range of players from the "beta crowd". Take a look around you on this site, we are the MMORPG followers, would YOU entrust US with giving you honest feedback to steer your game towards success?
I'd like to see what SOE was able to come up with. The game probably won't be perfect, but what game is? Though I don't think overconfidence is what they suffer from, IF overconfidence was their weakness I think I'd be able to live with that. I don't think it would be too far off the mark to say, everyone has their kryptonite. (you see what I did there?)
Games like Conan and Warhammer had reference to lots of information similar to what DCU is doing now. Promises of awesome raids, keep sieges, bar brawls, dx10, smash you enemies face conquest open world pvp, etc. All of that was TALKED about, but never shown to the public. People said similar things back then too. Oh its in beta and people are not allowed to talk about it, but that doesn't mean it is going to be bad. Blah blah blah. There are plenty of games that have talked about how cool their games are, shown little to back up those claims and crashed hard at release.
Soe has no trouble talking about how awesome raids are going to be, raid suits from your iconic mentor with thier emblem on it (which sort of makes you a sidekick?), secret identity system, storylines, powersets and freedom of builds, etc.
There is plenty of talk about how cool the features in the game are going to be, but there is shockingly little demonstration of that. I don't think this is due to overconfidence in their product or some clever marketing ploy to not overhype the game.
I can only think of one reason why a company would limit marketing to talk and screenshots and not allow outside players to test it even in a small capacity. This isn't the first game that has severly restricted access to the game prior to release.
(Oh, and I noticed you only picked BAD games on the other side of the argument. Good games require a balance of beta feedback and vision).
Well, lets be honest, we've seen plenty of games release TONS of information only to end up being a "bad" game, yet we have very little in the way of MMORPGs releasing small amounts of information, launching, and failing. I really don't know of any MMOs that really launched in that fashion before, and most of the games that did have missing pieces of information still ended up with an open beta, akin to the one I'm expecting to see very shortly here.
Maybe their weakness is overconfidence, but maybe instead they are trying to create an untainted vision based on local playtesting then a range of players from the "beta crowd". Take a look around you on this site, we are the MMORPG followers, would YOU entrust US with giving you honest feedback to steer your game towards success?
I'd like to see what SOE was able to come up with. The game probably won't be perfect, but what game is? Though I don't think overconfidence is what they suffer from, IF overconfidence was their weakness I think I'd be able to live with that. I don't think it would be too far off the mark to say, everyone has their kryptonite. (you see what I did there?)
Eh, I purposefully hand you a quote like that, and you don't respond with something like "And your faith in a beta is yours!" Hmm. Not sure you are allowed to post on Star Wars forums anymore. Hey thats cross IP talk, we're not supposed to cross the streams.
Anyhow, the fact is frankly that no MMO has ever done well with short closed beta. That's just how it is. Are we supposed to trust SOE's spotty record to bring a good game? Does having poor information release mean it is a good game? At BEST it means nothing. Note this is indeed POOR information release, since features that they mentioned in passing aren't being talked about at all. Does having bad marketing mean this is going to be good?
You know, when I see a major company provide poor marketing, poor information, and no beta for a game, that doesn't indicate anything positive, nor should it. Big companies know how to sell games and generate interest, and the fact they haven't been doing that much for DCUO shouldn't strike anyone as a positive thing. At best it is something completely disconnected from the quality of the DCUO...at best. There's no good reason to have developed a really good game and then market it so poorly (so at best the marketing division just completely sucks).
Anyhow, MMO beta testers are from a larger pool than this forum. Even so, the people on the forum wouldn't be a horrible group to judge a game overall. They are quite capable of report bugs in the like, and statistical analysis could be done on what parts of the game they enjoyed (based on what parts were used and how frequently per person, etc). No one has advocated letting such people directly dictate game features.
Is there a listing of MMOs with short closed Betas? There are plenty of single player games that do have lots of internal testing and they've been that way for years. There are a lot of great games that don't get marketed very well, some of which are in the MMO genre, but there are plenty of single player titles that didn't get marketed nearly at all before release, even those with lengthy closed betas.
I just don't see SOE not hyping the game because they're trying to lie to the public. It just doesn't sound like something they would do at this point considering the demos they've had at comic cons and game shows have all been well received. If the situation is WYSIWYG I think a lot of players will be happy with the outcome.
I would not entrust testing to many of the players on this site. If I were running a beta I'd have a much more selective Beta process rather then the seemingly random Betas we're used to. Especially if they aren't running a strong marketing campaign pre release, the last thing they want would be players complaining that this game isn't "CoH" or its a "WoW clone" or they told them they should have added player housing and an intricate crafting system but they didn't so the game will fail.
I have very little faith in the population on this site to be constructive by any means, even when just submitting bug reports.
Well, lets be honest, we've seen plenty of games release TONS of information only to end up being a "bad" game, yet we have very little in the way of MMORPGs releasing small amounts of information, launching, and failing. I really don't know of any MMOs that really launched in that fashion before, and most of the games that did have missing pieces of information still ended up with an open beta, akin to the one I'm expecting to see very shortly here.
Maybe their weakness is overconfidence, but maybe instead they are trying to create an untainted vision based on local playtesting then a range of players from the "beta crowd". Take a look around you on this site, we are the MMORPG followers, would YOU entrust US with giving you honest feedback to steer your game towards success?
I'd like to see what SOE was able to come up with. The game probably won't be perfect, but what game is? Though I don't think overconfidence is what they suffer from, IF overconfidence was their weakness I think I'd be able to live with that. I don't think it would be too far off the mark to say, everyone has their kryptonite. (you see what I did there?)
Games like Conan and Warhammer had reference to lots of information similar to what DCU is doing now. Promises of awesome raids, keep sieges, bar brawls, dx10, smash you enemies face conquest open world pvp, etc. All of that was TALKED about, but never shown to the public. People said similar things back then too. Oh its in beta and people are not allowed to talk about it, but that doesn't mean it is going to be bad. Blah blah blah. There are plenty of games that have talked about how cool their games are, shown little to back up those claims and crashed hard at release.
Soe has no trouble talking about how awesome raids are going to be, raid suits from your iconic mentor with thier emblem on it (which sort of makes you a sidekick?), secret identity system, storylines, powersets and freedom of builds, etc.
There is plenty of talk about how cool the features in the game are going to be, but there is shockingly little demonstration of that. I don't think this is due to overconfidence in their product or some clever marketing ploy to not overhype the game.
I can only think of one reason why a company would limit marketing to talk and screenshots and not allow outside players to test it even in a small capacity. This isn't the first game that has severly restricted access to the game prior to release.
AoC and WAR didn't crash hard at release at all, they both sold plenty of boxes. That isn't the point necessarily, as there are a lot of things that DCUO has said, and has shown, including their combat system which is one of the major features which interests me about the game. The gameplay videos did cover quite a bit of what the game offers, but no, they don't cover anything.
They HAVE allowed players to test the game though, many times, and they'll be allowing players more time to test it in just over a week. Players that have played the game seem to really enjoy it. Thats the information I can go on.
I just don't see a reason right now to believe that the absence of information automatically means something terrible. It really doesn't mean something has to be horribly wrong, it just means either the information is there but in limited capacity, or the information hasn't been released. I'm not worried about the lack of information at all at this point. I expect there to be some type of beta coming in the next 2 weeks. If I don't see one, then I'll start worrying.
Conan and Warhammer didn't crash hard at release you say? Selling boxes isn't the same as being successful. These games are about subscriptions, not box sales.
As for beta coming in a few weeks, there is not going to be enough time for A) players to experience much of the game and developers to react to anything players comment about. Open beta is nothing more than a marketing tool. Look how well that worked for warhammer.
Again, this is not just about the lack of information, the restricted and limited exposure people have had to the game, but also the lack of beta testing. Not only that, but this game is one of the first ever cross platform games, action physics, etc. It isn't like soe has tons of experience with smooth launches or their designs don't need testing, because each of their games has not had to undergo massive revamps after release.
Yes I think there is very good reason for concern. Even if they have an open beta for a week or two I don't think that changes much of what is already going to happen. As I said, it didn't change much for the previously mentioned games that held limited open betas.
Conan and Warhammer didn't crash hard at release you say? Selling boxes isn't the same as being successful. These games are about subscriptions, not box sales.
As for beta coming in a few weeks, there is not going to be enough time for A) players to experience much of the game and developers to react to anything players comment about. Open beta is nothing more than a marketing tool. Look how well that worked for warhammer.
Again, this is not just about the lack of information, the restricted and limited exposure people have had to the game, but also the lack of beta testing. Not only that, but this game is one of the first ever cross platform games, action physics, etc. It isn't like soe has tons of experience with smooth launches or their designs don't need testing, because each of their games has not had to undergo massive revamps after release.
Yes I think there is very good reason for concern. Even if they have an open beta for a week or two I don't think that changes much of what is already going to happen. As I said, it didn't change much for the previously mentioned games that held limited open betas.
Uhm, yeah AoC and WAR are not bad games, they just aren't widely popular. WAR was a fantastic game, and I was very happy playing it on launch, all the way up to T3 where the balance issues were what made me quit. Theres a lot of good things about WAR, and AoC also has kept going despite everyone saying it has "failed". None of that has to do with their long closed beta and open beta processes. Open beta isn't always just a marketing tool, but even if it was in this case, thats not really the problem. Does it really matter whether theres a long open beta period? If theres an open beta period and people have the chance to play the game, and they STILL buy it even after trying it, then who is really at fault here?
AoC and WAR didn't have limited open betas either, neither did CO and STO. The betas were open for everyone and lasted anywhere between 2 and 3 weeks. Open Betas as you said, aren't for getting feedback, but they aren't just a marketing ploy either. A lot can change in an Open Beta, but don't expect the core mechanics to change. I don't see any problem with that.
Warhammer and Conan were each losing 100,000's of subscribers a month. Between them they have closed almost 150 servers and combined have somewhere around 10 left. They are roughly 5-10% of the size they once were, so yes they most certainly were failures. Not complete and total failures, but considering the money, properties and teams invovled they are most certainly failures.
The open betas were limited in time and in content that could be accessed. I forget what it was, but each most certainly hide their weak upper level content which proved to be the downfall of each game.
As for things changing this close to release I highly doubt it. Warhammer found out that its original design didn't work and needed more open rvr, so they added keep sieges late in the game which ended up causing more problems than it solved. To bad they didn't have enough time to develop the game properly. I agree with you that the game was tons of fun early on. To bad it could not follow through with the rest of the game.
If designers were good that they created nearly flawless game designs then they wouldn't need testers for feedback. Somehow I think a cross platform, pvp, pve, raid, action combat with phycis, mentor storyline, quest based game is a rather large and new area for soe to be working in and a nice long and large test of the game would be in everyones best interest.
Perhaps you are right and soe has hit a home run and there isn't anything to worry about. Maybe they are not showing much of that game, because it is so awesome. Maybe they don't need to beta test the game, because everything is working fine. Maybe a short open beta testing will produce all the feedback they really need.
Warhammer and Conan were each losing 100,000's of subscribers a month. Between them they have closed almost 150 servers and combined have somewhere around 10 left. They are roughly 5-10% of the size they once were, so yes they most certainly were failures. Not complete and total failures, but considering the money, properties and teams invovled they are most certainly failures.
The open betas were limited in time and in content that could be accessed. I forget what it was, but each most certainly hide their weak upper level content which proved to be the downfall of each game.
As for things changing this close to release I highly doubt it. Warhammer found out that its original design didn't work and needed more open rvr, so they added keep sieges late in the game which ended up causing more problems than it solved. To bad they didn't have enough time to develop the game properly. I agree with you that the game was tons of fun early on. To bad it could not follow through with the rest of the game.
If designers were good that they created nearly flawless game designs then they wouldn't need testers for feedback. Somehow I think a cross platform, pvp, pve, raid, action combat with phycis, mentor storyline, quest based game is a rather large and new area for soe to be working in and a nice long and large test of the game would be in everyones best interest.
Perhaps you are right and soe has hit a home run and there isn't anything to worry about. Maybe they are not showing much of that game, because it is so awesome. Maybe they don't need to beta test the game, because everything is working fine. Maybe a short open beta testing will produce all the feedback they really need.
Well, you are right that the success of the sales for AoC and WAR were short lived, but the real idea of failure only happens when the games start losing money. I don't know how much revenue AoC or WAR lost compared to the costs to create the game. Maybe they broke even within the first month and the next few months were profit before costs dwindled to nothing. Apparently development for AoC was still doing well enough to put out an expansion eventhough they cut their work force.
I mean companies do what they need to do to stay in the black and keep the lights on. Cutting expenses before theres a major issue or when they see the game on decline is what most MMOs do, even ones that do pretty well. They get the game released and stable, then cut the work force and leave a crew for further development.
I'm not saying that the game is so awesome that they don't need a beta. I'm just saying that them not having an extensive closed beta doesn't mean this game can't still be good. I hope that I'm right, but I can also see myself biting my tongue next month. I could very well be wrong and this game could be terrible. I'm really keeping my fingers crossed on this one.
I have noticed in pretty much every beta I've ever participated in, there was plenty of people bitching and moaning with absolutely no constructive input. People would fraps vids and post it on youtube, complaining about this or that, few things valid, many with the ability to be chalked up to their own ignorance.
Of the few constructive people actually testing, they were usually flamed and trolled or ignored by the devs who stopped listening after the first 500 posts of "THIS GAEM SUKS!" or "THIS THING I WAS EXPECTING IS NOT WHAT I WAS EXPECTING!" and the occasional "THIS THING THAT IS NOT COMPLETED IS BROKEN!". along with the ever so flavorful "DOOOOOOOOOM!".
Honestly, if they had a testing team that was large enough and creative enough, I'd say screw it if not for stress tests and locality issues.
All said and done though, chances are we will see beta in october. Feel free to spew doom and gloom then.
Comments
Actually Everquest and Vanguard were created by other studios and later purchased by SOE. Both of which had Brad McQuaid in charge of designing the game. Everquest was already a huge success before SOE was even created.
I'm just saying.
This looks REALLY bad. I mean seriously, all the graphics look STRAIT from CoH.
The IP is going to suffer from this.
Well, lets be honest, we've seen plenty of games release TONS of information only to end up being a "bad" game, yet we have very little in the way of MMORPGs releasing small amounts of information, launching, and failing. I really don't know of any MMOs that really launched in that fashion before, and most of the games that did have missing pieces of information still ended up with an open beta, akin to the one I'm expecting to see very shortly here.
Maybe their weakness is overconfidence, but maybe instead they are trying to create an untainted vision based on local playtesting then a range of players from the "beta crowd". Take a look around you on this site, we are the MMORPG followers, would YOU entrust US with giving you honest feedback to steer your game towards success?
I'd like to see what SOE was able to come up with. The game probably won't be perfect, but what game is? Though I don't think overconfidence is what they suffer from, IF overconfidence was their weakness I think I'd be able to live with that. I don't think it would be too far off the mark to say, everyone has their kryptonite. (you see what I did there?)
Eh, I purposefully hand you a quote like that, and you don't respond with something like "And your faith in a beta is yours!" Hmm. Not sure you are allowed to post on Star Wars forums anymore.
Anyhow, the fact is frankly that no MMO has ever done well with short closed beta. That's just how it is. Are we supposed to trust SOE's spotty record to bring a good game? Does having poor information release mean it is a good game? At BEST it means nothing. Note this is indeed POOR information release, since features that they mentioned in passing aren't being talked about at all. Does having bad marketing mean this is going to be good?
You know, when I see a major company provide poor marketing, poor information, and no beta for a game, that doesn't indicate anything positive, nor should it. Big companies know how to sell games and generate interest, and the fact they haven't been doing that much for DCUO shouldn't strike anyone as a positive thing. At best it is something completely disconnected from the quality of the DCUO...at best. There's no good reason to have developed a really good game and then market it so poorly (so at best the marketing division just completely sucks).
Anyhow, MMO beta testers are from a larger pool than this forum. Even so, the people on the forum wouldn't be a horrible group to judge a game overall. They are quite capable of report bugs in the like, and statistical analysis could be done on what parts of the game they enjoyed (based on what parts were used and how frequently per person, etc). No one has advocated letting such people directly dictate game features.
Games like Conan and Warhammer had reference to lots of information similar to what DCU is doing now. Promises of awesome raids, keep sieges, bar brawls, dx10, smash you enemies face conquest open world pvp, etc. All of that was TALKED about, but never shown to the public. People said similar things back then too. Oh its in beta and people are not allowed to talk about it, but that doesn't mean it is going to be bad. Blah blah blah. There are plenty of games that have talked about how cool their games are, shown little to back up those claims and crashed hard at release.
Soe has no trouble talking about how awesome raids are going to be, raid suits from your iconic mentor with thier emblem on it (which sort of makes you a sidekick?), secret identity system, storylines, powersets and freedom of builds, etc.
There is plenty of talk about how cool the features in the game are going to be, but there is shockingly little demonstration of that. I don't think this is due to overconfidence in their product or some clever marketing ploy to not overhype the game.
I can only think of one reason why a company would limit marketing to talk and screenshots and not allow outside players to test it even in a small capacity. This isn't the first game that has severly restricted access to the game prior to release.
Is there a listing of MMOs with short closed Betas? There are plenty of single player games that do have lots of internal testing and they've been that way for years. There are a lot of great games that don't get marketed very well, some of which are in the MMO genre, but there are plenty of single player titles that didn't get marketed nearly at all before release, even those with lengthy closed betas.
I just don't see SOE not hyping the game because they're trying to lie to the public. It just doesn't sound like something they would do at this point considering the demos they've had at comic cons and game shows have all been well received. If the situation is WYSIWYG I think a lot of players will be happy with the outcome.
I would not entrust testing to many of the players on this site. If I were running a beta I'd have a much more selective Beta process rather then the seemingly random Betas we're used to. Especially if they aren't running a strong marketing campaign pre release, the last thing they want would be players complaining that this game isn't "CoH" or its a "WoW clone" or they told them they should have added player housing and an intricate crafting system but they didn't so the game will fail.
I have very little faith in the population on this site to be constructive by any means, even when just submitting bug reports.
AoC and WAR didn't crash hard at release at all, they both sold plenty of boxes. That isn't the point necessarily, as there are a lot of things that DCUO has said, and has shown, including their combat system which is one of the major features which interests me about the game. The gameplay videos did cover quite a bit of what the game offers, but no, they don't cover anything.
They HAVE allowed players to test the game though, many times, and they'll be allowing players more time to test it in just over a week. Players that have played the game seem to really enjoy it. Thats the information I can go on.
I just don't see a reason right now to believe that the absence of information automatically means something terrible. It really doesn't mean something has to be horribly wrong, it just means either the information is there but in limited capacity, or the information hasn't been released. I'm not worried about the lack of information at all at this point. I expect there to be some type of beta coming in the next 2 weeks. If I don't see one, then I'll start worrying.
Conan and Warhammer didn't crash hard at release you say? Selling boxes isn't the same as being successful. These games are about subscriptions, not box sales.
As for beta coming in a few weeks, there is not going to be enough time for A) players to experience much of the game and
developers to react to anything players comment about. Open beta is nothing more than a marketing tool. Look how well that worked for warhammer.
Again, this is not just about the lack of information, the restricted and limited exposure people have had to the game, but also the lack of beta testing. Not only that, but this game is one of the first ever cross platform games, action physics, etc. It isn't like soe has tons of experience with smooth launches or their designs don't need testing, because each of their games has not had to undergo massive revamps after release.
Yes I think there is very good reason for concern. Even if they have an open beta for a week or two I don't think that changes much of what is already going to happen. As I said, it didn't change much for the previously mentioned games that held limited open betas.
Uhm, yeah AoC and WAR are not bad games, they just aren't widely popular. WAR was a fantastic game, and I was very happy playing it on launch, all the way up to T3 where the balance issues were what made me quit. Theres a lot of good things about WAR, and AoC also has kept going despite everyone saying it has "failed". None of that has to do with their long closed beta and open beta processes. Open beta isn't always just a marketing tool, but even if it was in this case, thats not really the problem. Does it really matter whether theres a long open beta period? If theres an open beta period and people have the chance to play the game, and they STILL buy it even after trying it, then who is really at fault here?
AoC and WAR didn't have limited open betas either, neither did CO and STO. The betas were open for everyone and lasted anywhere between 2 and 3 weeks. Open Betas as you said, aren't for getting feedback, but they aren't just a marketing ploy either. A lot can change in an Open Beta, but don't expect the core mechanics to change. I don't see any problem with that.
Warhammer and Conan were each losing 100,000's of subscribers a month. Between them they have closed almost 150 servers and combined have somewhere around 10 left. They are roughly 5-10% of the size they once were, so yes they most certainly were failures. Not complete and total failures, but considering the money, properties and teams invovled they are most certainly failures.
The open betas were limited in time and in content that could be accessed. I forget what it was, but each most certainly hide their weak upper level content which proved to be the downfall of each game.
As for things changing this close to release I highly doubt it. Warhammer found out that its original design didn't work and needed more open rvr, so they added keep sieges late in the game which ended up causing more problems than it solved. To bad they didn't have enough time to develop the game properly. I agree with you that the game was tons of fun early on. To bad it could not follow through with the rest of the game.
If designers were good that they created nearly flawless game designs then they wouldn't need testers for feedback. Somehow I think a cross platform, pvp, pve, raid, action combat with phycis, mentor storyline, quest based game is a rather large and new area for soe to be working in and a nice long and large test of the game would be in everyones best interest.
Perhaps you are right and soe has hit a home run and there isn't anything to worry about. Maybe they are not showing much of that game, because it is so awesome. Maybe they don't need to beta test the game, because everything is working fine. Maybe a short open beta testing will produce all the feedback they really need.
Well, you are right that the success of the sales for AoC and WAR were short lived, but the real idea of failure only happens when the games start losing money. I don't know how much revenue AoC or WAR lost compared to the costs to create the game. Maybe they broke even within the first month and the next few months were profit before costs dwindled to nothing. Apparently development for AoC was still doing well enough to put out an expansion eventhough they cut their work force.
I mean companies do what they need to do to stay in the black and keep the lights on. Cutting expenses before theres a major issue or when they see the game on decline is what most MMOs do, even ones that do pretty well. They get the game released and stable, then cut the work force and leave a crew for further development.
I'm not saying that the game is so awesome that they don't need a beta. I'm just saying that them not having an extensive closed beta doesn't mean this game can't still be good. I hope that I'm right, but I can also see myself biting my tongue next month. I could very well be wrong and this game could be terrible. I'm really keeping my fingers crossed on this one.
I have noticed in pretty much every beta I've ever participated in, there was plenty of people bitching and moaning with absolutely no constructive input. People would fraps vids and post it on youtube, complaining about this or that, few things valid, many with the ability to be chalked up to their own ignorance.
Of the few constructive people actually testing, they were usually flamed and trolled or ignored by the devs who stopped listening after the first 500 posts of "THIS GAEM SUKS!" or "THIS THING I WAS EXPECTING IS NOT WHAT I WAS EXPECTING!" and the occasional "THIS THING THAT IS NOT COMPLETED IS BROKEN!". along with the ever so flavorful "DOOOOOOOOOM!".
Honestly, if they had a testing team that was large enough and creative enough, I'd say screw it if not for stress tests and locality issues.
All said and done though, chances are we will see beta in october. Feel free to spew doom and gloom then.