shakes head..Eve isn't all that hard. It does require thought tho.
Any and I mean ANY game that has a leaning curve that looks like an Exel spreadsheet to negin to play is a job. I play to relax. I work if I am paid for it.
shakes head..Eve isn't all that hard. It does require thought tho.
Any and I mean ANY game that has a leaning curve that looks like an Exel spreadsheet to negin to play is a job. I play to relax. I work if I am paid for it.
+1
Only way I would play eve is if someone payed ME to play it. Hardest learning curve but not THAT hard. Just very dull.
Would like to say eve has made itself a lot easier since that graph came out. It's still a massive learning curve but I don't think it's at that vertical cliff anymore..... unless you listen to those ppl in starter corps who insist you max all learning skills first.
Also it doesn't really level out, it slows down a lot but you should be always learning new things in eve. There's years worth of different things you can try out (some that really need to be fixed) and more being added so it's pretty rare for someone to run out of things to do. Getting bored of those things is another matter.
Oh and yes there are plenty of spreadsheets, graphs and diagrams and we love it. though you can just shoot things if that doesn't interest you.
I was in the beta for EVE and the whole time was a waste. Just a bunch of people sitting around having no idea what the hell was going on. I know the game is a million times better than when it started but back then, when there weren't guides I never had one question answered. By the end of the beta I figured out how to mine, fly around and a little about combat. I used to be a hardcore player but I got a 50 hour a week job. No longer interested in wasting untold hours simply trying to learn a crafting system or trying to find an armor merchant. Same reasons I quit the FFXIV beta after a week and won't be subbing. I just don't feel like the expenditure of time is worth it any more. I figured out linkshells playing FFXI but honestly, that was one of many decisions across their two pc games where I think someone at Square said, "How can we do this so that 90% of the people that pick up our game never look back?"
I haven't played many on the OP's list except EVE of course and FFXI very briefly. I didn't find the learning curve of EVE that difficult outside of getting used to the UI. The UI wasn't that hard though to come to grips with. To me, the worst game to learn how to play was by far FFXI and only thanks to its UI. I hated it so much that that is what drove me away from the game.
EQ1 had a learning curve for me since it was my first MMO ever. I was used to text-based MUDs so the intuitive part was setting up macros, and using slash commands. It took me a couple weeks to get used to the GUI, but the rest of the game material was pretty easy to get into, other than figuring out what my spells did. Some of it I found out the hard way: by buying spells and seeing what they did once I cast them.
UO also had a bit of a learning curve more with respect to what was in the game than the UI itself. The UI to me was much more intuitive than EQ1's.
It's funny though: my first MMO experiences were based on the lack of my knowledge about fansites with information as to how to play certain aspects of each game. I learned mostly the hard way, like tradeskills in AO, macroing in SWG pre-NGE, speccing in DAoC, etc. I was such a newb back then
I have to say this, like other posters, AO should be on the list. You need alot of research and tips from other players to fully understand Anarchy Online. Even afters years you will always find out something new.
"you are like the world revenge on sarcasm, you know that?"
Holy Crap....can we please STFU about "PRE-NGE" already.
It's gone, it happened (many many years ago) so get freekin' over it.
I'm pretty sure that everyone's over "it", that doesnt mean that everyone can't still miss it.
I guess it all comes down to how every single mmo today is trying to copy wow, down to the shitty graphics and toy movements, when SWG had it right, but SOE executed it like a bunch of monkeehs
Were this a boredom curve list, then FFXI would deserve to be on it.
Having seen this graphic change over and over and over in its years of being handed down on the internet, I remember the days when Anarchy Online occupied the slot that EVE did, and when EVE arrived, it was bumped down to where POTBS is.
When choosing a race can result in your character being less successful... you know you're on Rubi-Ka.
There are non-subtle differences between a Nanomage Enforcer and an Atrox Enforcer. A player that understands the system knows how to overcome much of the differences, but one can easily gimp a character in AO, thanks to the improvement points system. What's green (cheap) to an Atrox can be deep blue (bloody expensive!) to a nanomage, and make all the difference in what and how much one can improve (talk about IP Starvation)!
Please stop describing the past wonderfulness that was SWG. I get so sad.
this too
Why no one else has made a game with that same style class system is beyond me *cries*
This is because it is SOE.The developer so many like to bash and have given up on.IMO SOE is the best chance we have of the next super game,He has kids ,and has played countless hours of games himself,he has a giant corp behind him [SOE]tons of resources and manpower.If we don't support SOE then they will turn their trends to other areas,like predominantly cash shops and certain demographics,example kids,browser based.
I do not think SOE creates much of a learning curve either,i actually find their games very easy to get into.
No question imo Sqaure Enix does make their games non user friendly,very little if any descriptions,everything is a secret it seems.I could only imagine how hard it was to play FFXI from day 1,if there was no interent user links to look up information,the game was EXTREMELY hard to understand fully.Geesh i was somewhere around level 17/18 in Buburimu Peninsula when a higher level player asked me about sub class,i was like huh?Offered to help me out,i was like sure,but i knew nothing of it's purpose or design.I had no clue at all what sub class i should take,again with no help from others,it was all a guess.
The list is HUGE,i could write a mini book on all the things that Square kept a secret in FFXi,without the internet and others to help you along the way it was about 99% a secret.Moon phases/elemental properties,direction faced it goes on and on.Chocobo quest?Huh?Jueno?where's that?Macros?what ya talking about Willis?
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Id say l2s curve is quite extreme as well, for sure not the worst but not far from it.
Rofl, are u serious ? Any retard can play l2 and even play it good. My naber kids who are around 13-14 (not sure) are in good clans and alliances in there. For pvp part u only need good equipment, skill doesn't have anything to do if u will suceed or not in simple pk or pvp. Castle sieges are bit different, but still there is nothing hard, it still mainly depends on how good geared ur clan/alliance is.
A list with awesome games in it. 2 of my top favorite games are in them and i like every game on that list. This list must be on to something in regards to whats significant difference of top games and bad games.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Holy Crap....can we please STFU about "PRE-NGE" already.
It's gone, it happened (many many years ago) so get freekin' over it.
It happend four years ago, not 'many many'. You gotta be in the infamous "30 is old and 5 years ago was right after World War 2"-age
Uhm, yeah....I'm with you, Meri. I read that and was like...."WTF? Since when is four years considered 'many many?'"
I also agree with the AO voters. That game was actually the ONLY game I ever left because it was too confusing to LEARN. At least with the others...I stayed, learned, and enjoyed to varying degrees. AO....no. I lasted all of one day with a confused look on my face and tears of frustration before I said, "Fuck this...games are supposed to be FUN." I was unwilling to stick with it TO learn, and that...for me...is pretty rare. So I have no idea if the game is even any good.
Oh...and isn't AC, which was the first addition to the list mentioned...an entirely different game from AO? AC1 was some Microsoft developed, MMO, wasn't it...Asheron's Call? I never played AC1 (or 2), but I've always heard it was a very good game, and I haven't heard much good, to be honest, about AO.....just sayin'.
UO, by the way, was my MMO "foundation," so I never knew there was "supposed" to be less of a learning curve than that.
Very interesting post. I hope game developers read it.. When I start a Beta game and uninstall before level 10, I wonder if there is a way for the developers to know when players start dropping out. Usually I quit because of poor mapping/tracking or don't understand the skill system.
I can understand why you chose the games you did for this post. I quit POTBS because I couldn't understand what I was supposed to do, also.
I think the funniest thing I did in a game, with bad instructions ... in Beta now ... I sailed out on my ship on the first quest and couldn't get back to home port. I started another character and the same thing happened ... so I quit that game.
I would throw in AC1 in there. Except for Eve it is far more complex than any of the others and a much better game except for the graphics and the inability to control the bots.
Not sure what you mean here as the graphics are pretty much spot on and the "Bots" [i assume you mean avatar] is easy to controll?
As for the really classic graph i agree 90% as since that graph was made the tutorial has gotten much better.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
Good piece and interesting observations. It is also true that people like comfort zones and do attack that which does not adhere to the those parameters. However learning to adapt and sticking with something also shows strength of character and in some ways reflect your own attitude in life.
When I tried EVE Online some years ago, the main problem learning that game was the (for me) counter-intuitive user interface.
I am one of those people who prefer big menus with everything I need in it over small menus hidden away everywhere in places that might be logical to some, but not to me. That is one of the reasons I hate th replacement of Microsoft's Office menu by that ribbon-thing, I switch everything in Windows immediately back to "Classic".
Hiding the Autopilot settings at the Star map is unforgivable.
Interesting that some of the best games, and games with the most freedom and pvp have the greatest learning curves. I guess people actually find the challenge and depth fun. Not MO challenge of trying to figure out something simple, but the challenge of having to understand complex ideas, ala EVE, and the reward you get for accomplishing this.
Comments
shakes head..Eve isn't all that hard. It does require thought tho.
Any and I mean ANY game that has a leaning curve that looks like an Exel spreadsheet to negin to play is a job. I play to relax. I work if I am paid for it.
+1
Only way I would play eve is if someone payed ME to play it. Hardest learning curve but not THAT hard. Just very dull.
Would like to say eve has made itself a lot easier since that graph came out. It's still a massive learning curve but I don't think it's at that vertical cliff anymore..... unless you listen to those ppl in starter corps who insist you max all learning skills first.
Also it doesn't really level out, it slows down a lot but you should be always learning new things in eve. There's years worth of different things you can try out (some that really need to be fixed) and more being added so it's pretty rare for someone to run out of things to do. Getting bored of those things is another matter.
Oh and yes there are plenty of spreadsheets, graphs and diagrams and we love it. though you can just shoot things if that doesn't interest you.
Into the breach meatbags
I was in the beta for EVE and the whole time was a waste. Just a bunch of people sitting around having no idea what the hell was going on. I know the game is a million times better than when it started but back then, when there weren't guides I never had one question answered. By the end of the beta I figured out how to mine, fly around and a little about combat. I used to be a hardcore player but I got a 50 hour a week job. No longer interested in wasting untold hours simply trying to learn a crafting system or trying to find an armor merchant. Same reasons I quit the FFXIV beta after a week and won't be subbing. I just don't feel like the expenditure of time is worth it any more. I figured out linkshells playing FFXI but honestly, that was one of many decisions across their two pc games where I think someone at Square said, "How can we do this so that 90% of the people that pick up our game never look back?"
I haven't played many on the OP's list except EVE of course and FFXI very briefly. I didn't find the learning curve of EVE that difficult outside of getting used to the UI. The UI wasn't that hard though to come to grips with. To me, the worst game to learn how to play was by far FFXI and only thanks to its UI. I hated it so much that that is what drove me away from the game.
EQ1 had a learning curve for me since it was my first MMO ever. I was used to text-based MUDs so the intuitive part was setting up macros, and using slash commands. It took me a couple weeks to get used to the GUI, but the rest of the game material was pretty easy to get into, other than figuring out what my spells did. Some of it I found out the hard way: by buying spells and seeing what they did once I cast them.
UO also had a bit of a learning curve more with respect to what was in the game than the UI itself. The UI to me was much more intuitive than EQ1's.
It's funny though: my first MMO experiences were based on the lack of my knowledge about fansites with information as to how to play certain aspects of each game. I learned mostly the hard way, like tradeskills in AO, macroing in SWG pre-NGE, speccing in DAoC, etc. I was such a newb back then
Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.
I have to say this, like other posters, AO should be on the list. You need alot of research and tips from other players to fully understand Anarchy Online. Even afters years you will always find out something new.
"you are like the world revenge on sarcasm, you know that?"
One of those great lines from The Secret World
It happend four years ago, not 'many many'. You gotta be in the infamous "30 is old and 5 years ago was right after World War 2"-age
Id say l2s curve is quite extreme as well, for sure not the worst but not far from it.
I'm pretty sure that everyone's over "it", that doesnt mean that everyone can't still miss it.
I guess it all comes down to how every single mmo today is trying to copy wow, down to the shitty graphics and toy movements, when SWG had it right, but SOE executed it like a bunch of monkeehs
Were this a boredom curve list, then FFXI would deserve to be on it.
Having seen this graphic change over and over and over in its years of being handed down on the internet, I remember the days when Anarchy Online occupied the slot that EVE did, and when EVE arrived, it was bumped down to where POTBS is.
When choosing a race can result in your character being less successful... you know you're on Rubi-Ka.
There are non-subtle differences between a Nanomage Enforcer and an Atrox Enforcer. A player that understands the system knows how to overcome much of the differences, but one can easily gimp a character in AO, thanks to the improvement points system. What's green (cheap) to an Atrox can be deep blue (bloody expensive!) to a nanomage, and make all the difference in what and how much one can improve (talk about IP Starvation)!
WWIIOL:Battleground Europe should be on that list too.
I'm pretty sure that last learning curve chart was originally used for Dwarf Fortress... lol
but still, it would be just about right
Eve is one of the last truley 'Massive' games where theres just so much crap to do, you really don't know where to begin.
This is because it is SOE.The developer so many like to bash and have given up on.IMO SOE is the best chance we have of the next super game,He has kids ,and has played countless hours of games himself,he has a giant corp behind him [SOE]tons of resources and manpower.If we don't support SOE then they will turn their trends to other areas,like predominantly cash shops and certain demographics,example kids,browser based.
I do not think SOE creates much of a learning curve either,i actually find their games very easy to get into.
No question imo Sqaure Enix does make their games non user friendly,very little if any descriptions,everything is a secret it seems.I could only imagine how hard it was to play FFXI from day 1,if there was no interent user links to look up information,the game was EXTREMELY hard to understand fully.Geesh i was somewhere around level 17/18 in Buburimu Peninsula when a higher level player asked me about sub class,i was like huh?Offered to help me out,i was like sure,but i knew nothing of it's purpose or design.I had no clue at all what sub class i should take,again with no help from others,it was all a guess.
The list is HUGE,i could write a mini book on all the things that Square kept a secret in FFXi,without the internet and others to help you along the way it was about 99% a secret.Moon phases/elemental properties,direction faced it goes on and on.Chocobo quest?Huh?Jueno?where's that?Macros?what ya talking about Willis?
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Rofl, are u serious ? Any retard can play l2 and even play it good. My naber kids who are around 13-14 (not sure) are in good clans and alliances in there. For pvp part u only need good equipment, skill doesn't have anything to do if u will suceed or not in simple pk or pvp. Castle sieges are bit different, but still there is nothing hard, it still mainly depends on how good geared ur clan/alliance is.
A list with awesome games in it. 2 of my top favorite games are in them and i like every game on that list. This list must be on to something in regards to whats significant difference of top games and bad games.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Uhm, yeah....I'm with you, Meri. I read that and was like...."WTF? Since when is four years considered 'many many?'"
I also agree with the AO voters. That game was actually the ONLY game I ever left because it was too confusing to LEARN. At least with the others...I stayed, learned, and enjoyed to varying degrees. AO....no. I lasted all of one day with a confused look on my face and tears of frustration before I said, "Fuck this...games are supposed to be FUN." I was unwilling to stick with it TO learn, and that...for me...is pretty rare. So I have no idea if the game is even any good.
Oh...and isn't AC, which was the first addition to the list mentioned...an entirely different game from AO? AC1 was some Microsoft developed, MMO, wasn't it...Asheron's Call? I never played AC1 (or 2), but I've always heard it was a very good game, and I haven't heard much good, to be honest, about AO.....just sayin'.
UO, by the way, was my MMO "foundation," so I never knew there was "supposed" to be less of a learning curve than that.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Very interesting post. I hope game developers read it.. When I start a Beta game and uninstall before level 10, I wonder if there is a way for the developers to know when players start dropping out. Usually I quit because of poor mapping/tracking or don't understand the skill system.
I can understand why you chose the games you did for this post. I quit POTBS because I couldn't understand what I was supposed to do, also.
I think the funniest thing I did in a game, with bad instructions ... in Beta now ... I sailed out on my ship on the first quest and couldn't get back to home port. I started another character and the same thing happened ... so I quit that game.
Lord, I miss being a newb in SWG (Pre-NGE). Good write up.
Not sure what you mean here as the graphics are pretty much spot on and the "Bots" [i assume you mean avatar] is easy to controll?
As for the really classic graph i agree 90% as since that graph was made the tutorial has gotten much better.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
Good piece and interesting observations. It is also true that people like comfort zones and do attack that which does not adhere to the those parameters. However learning to adapt and sticking with something also shows strength of character and in some ways reflect your own attitude in life.
I found Mortal Online hard to learn aswell...But that game is verry unknow i guess.
When I tried EVE Online some years ago, the main problem learning that game was the (for me) counter-intuitive user interface.
I am one of those people who prefer big menus with everything I need in it over small menus hidden away everywhere in places that might be logical to some, but not to me. That is one of the reasons I hate th replacement of Microsoft's Office menu by that ribbon-thing, I switch everything in Windows immediately back to "Classic".
Hiding the Autopilot settings at the Star map is unforgivable.
Darkfall online is only hard becouse the UI/control system seem to have been designed 15 years ago and not been work on since.
Also old players and the game itself dont really let new players learn the game.
Bad made game is not the same as hardcore game.
Interesting that some of the best games, and games with the most freedom and pvp have the greatest learning curves. I guess people actually find the challenge and depth fun. Not MO challenge of trying to figure out something simple, but the challenge of having to understand complex ideas, ala EVE, and the reward you get for accomplishing this.
NEVA!
WTB:
- name and location of the person responsible for NGE;
- illegal porn pictures;
- time machine;
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.