Likewise, I very much doubt that the pen-and-paper WoD players sit around all day preening over their L33t character stats when there are secrets to be found, scandals to spread, alliances to be made, backs to be stabbed and blood to be sucked. It's going to be a game of politics, treachery, player interaction.
Well, there are a few like that in pen and paper too but they are not so common.
But I agree, there should be a more to a MMO than getting loot and leveling. Those are not the main part of P&P games, tha is to have as much fun as possible instead.
I cant say I am 100% for a passive system but if they do chose to use that type of system in the game I would have to cast a vote for the type that Vindictus uses. Now with that being said what I 95% believe in is no passive system at all. What kind of logic is used when one thinks you can get better at something by not doing it or doing anything. I feel that any game should have skill advancement based on the addage of You reap what you sew. If that would be put in place in a manner that is entertaining and thought provoking would only add to the level of realism and immersion into the game. I am looking forward to this game for the fact that I may actualy be able to find an MMORPG that I can play alongside my wife. Only time will tell on all counts.
id imagine theyve learned a lot from Eve. Having an impossible gap to close between old and new will surely stop any passive learning. Also players not bothering to play just logging in to update skill training qs is hardly healthy.
Playing the game to progress in it is the primary logic of any game.
Whether it is monopoly, risk, a single player videogame or an MMO.
So no, this goes almost straight in against that.
Almost as badly as using microtransactions and other outside sources which aren't part of the game in order to progress in it.
This objection makes no sense. Progression is not the same as playing. I'm not playing Monopoly when it is in a box in the closet. I am not playing EVE when I am offline. If WoD has passive skill progression it is only being played when I am online having fun with it. That would be true whether or not there was any skill progression at all.
In old school MMO's, you earned your skill through playing.
In recent (F2P) MMO's, you were able to pull out your credit card and buy your skill.
And now, Eve-style gameplay advances you for just sitting on your butt.
Sorry, but I'll be darned if I'll tolerate players advancing for just sitting on their butts. There is a line that can be crossed, you know, and this is it.
That's because in "old school" MMOs, the object of the game is to advance your character. In EVE, the object of the game is to achieve your goals, and skill points are just another tool to do that with. And you dont achieve many goals by "sitting on your butt".
Likewise, I very much doubt that the pen-and-paper WoD players sit around all day preening over their L33t character stats when there are secrets to be found, scandals to spread, alliances to be made, backs to be stabbed and blood to be sucked. It's going to be a game of politics, treachery, player interaction.
Grinding sucks (heh). WoDO is not (so I infer) going to be a PvE based game where you grind mobz to gain levels to do 40-kindred raids on Cainxya's lair to score pH4t epix. This is not a Cryptic game.
Well said. It's so difficult to comprehend that a game may have goals other than character progression. Yes, you want your character to get stronger, but your strength is only a means to an end, not the end itself. Therefore, it does not matter whether it increases actively or passively. In reality, for EVE, it's both; you can have all the skills you want, but without ISK, a ship, the right equipment, and experience, you're as useful as a steamed vegetable. Y'know how you get those things? By playing the game. Gasp.
Likewise, I very much doubt that the pen-and-paper WoD players sit around all day preening over their L33t character stats when there are secrets to be found, scandals to spread, alliances to be made, backs to be stabbed and blood to be sucked. It's going to be a game of politics, treachery, player interaction.
Well, there are a few like that in pen and paper too but they are not so common.
But I agree, there should be a more to a MMO than getting loot and leveling. Those are not the main part of P&P games, tha is to have as much fun as possible instead.
Well they can preen over stats, but it's really not what the game is about, in contrast to games like WoW where your character sheet really is what the game is about.
Playing the game to progress in it is the primary logic of any game.
Whether it is monopoly, risk, a single player videogame or an MMO.
So no, this goes almost straight in against that.
Almost as badly as using microtransactions and other outside sources which aren't part of the game in order to progress in it.
You play a game to be able to do a certain task/s that you enjoy, not to simply level up. Top players 'progress' in terms of skill and ability within a games ruleset, not simply by levelling.
Personally I don't care eitherway if WoD has a passive skill progression or not. Everyone will be in the same boat so what's the issue.
It always cracks me up when people think you can simply skill up offline for 10 months or so then go in and be at the same level as someone who has actually played the game for those 10 months, learning the in's and out's and ingratiating themselves into a games community.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
The limited connection between action and reward was a big turnoff for me for EVE (of course the bigger one is that not a single gameplay activity was enjoyable, and most were excessively tedious and dull.)
So I voted no, and hope that less tedious mechanics will be at work with WoD.
Ugh after posting I had this terrible thought of a Vampire "mining" some random civilian by chewing on his neck for 15 minutes with zero player input -- with that mining laser (brrrraarrrr) sound effect. "Sweet my inventory updated to 2.84 pints of blood!" (talk about the least compelling vampire game ever...)
I had the same turnoff to eve. Fun is the bottom line for these games.
Nice vampire mining! Gather up a few blood dolls and build your own blood bank.
What could be scary is the clothing options. Lots of goth looking velvet or black leather/vinyl everywhere.
For the life of me I will never understand why people are so attached to skill grinding. Oh well, dif'rent strokes and all that. At least WoD wont have learning skills.
Playing the game to progress in it is the primary logic of any game.
Whether it is monopoly, risk, a single player videogame or an MMO.
So no, this goes almost straight in against that.
Almost as badly as using microtransactions and other outside sources which aren't part of the game in order to progress in it.
You play a game to be able to do a certain task/s that you enjoy, not to simply level up. Top players 'progress' in terms of skill and ability within a games ruleset, not simply by levelling.
Personally I don't care eitherway if WoD has a passive skill progression or not. Everyone will be in the same boat so what's the issue.
It always cracks me up when people think you can simply skill up offline for 10 months or so then go in and be at the same level as someone who has actually played the game for those 10 months, learning the in's and out's and ingratiating themselves into a games community.
Yeah, but when the ability to preform tasks efficently is impacted by level, then leveling up becomes a major focus of the game. I power game to get the leveling over with so that I can enjoy the freedom of doing tasks high levels afford.
To me the grinding system and the waiting system both suck (pardon the pun). Sure Eve is nice in that you spend your game time playing and not grinding, but still in Eve there are times in which you have to just wait to play.
My ideal system would do away with XP/time based skill/level acusition. Instead I'd prefer a system where other players can teach you the skills they have which you lack OR you search for rare NPCs to be taught rare skills OR you buy the mundane skills for game currency from novice trainer NPCs. As you see I am not totally against progression, but I am against mindless grinding and passive waiting.
-So I did not vote in this poll really because to have voted would have suggested I prefer one end in this illusionary dichotimy of Grind VS Wait.
--When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii. --In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses. --The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence! --CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.
Heck no, time based learning is silly, and doesnt allow the player to accualy have a direct influence over his training
Yeah I find that I'm much more immersed by grinding identical mobs for hours instead of, you know, playing the game.
Anyway, our opinions are moot. The skill system, whatever it is, has long been decided. If I had to bet, I'd go with a highly modified hybrid version of the EVE system, probably some passive elements, some active. Simply being able to grind mobz for XP would be the worst possible thing for an RP-centric game.
Come to that CCP themselves said it would be PvP focused (in the EvE sense of PvP basically meaning all competitive player interaction, not just combat). How do you award XP for intriguing to get a rival cast out?
Heck no, time based learning is silly, and doesnt allow the player to accualy have a direct influence over his training
Yeah I find that I'm much more immersed by grinding identical mobs for hours instead of, you know, playing the game.
Anyway, our opinions are moot. The skill system, whatever it is, has long been decided. If I had to bet, I'd go with a highly modified hybrid version of the EVE system, probably some passive elements, some active. Simply being able to grind mobz for XP would be the worst possible thing for an RP-centric game.
Come to that CCP themselves said it would be PvP focused (in the EvE sense of PvP basically meaning all competitive player interaction, not just combat). How do you award XP for intriguing to get a rival cast out?
If a game encourages you to grind identical mobs, it's a badly designed game. Many XP-based games nowadays are designed so that you're not encouraged to grind repetitively. The others? They're bad games and not really worth discussing -- there are bad implementations of all sorts of systems, but that doesn't necessarily mean the concept is bad: merely the implementation.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Certain aspects of the game should be passive and time based (imo).
They need to be careful because a system that seperated newer players from veteran players would most definately be catastrophic for long term gaming, HOWEVER a system with smaller time based skill gains that have nothing to do with combat but social aspects could easily work. Whether it be crafting, politics, or even "reputation", etc.
Things that should NEVER be passive-time gained would be combat abilities stats, and anything that gave you a combat advantage. Once you get rid of the risk vs. reward in any MMO, it becomes dull and lifeless really fast with nothing to really strive for and get excited for when you do achieve anything.
I could never get into Eve becuase it was too much sitting and watching as events would slowly unfold,the skill system added to the dullness.
Im assuming WoD will have alot more action to it,thus it should have its own skill system that compliments the pace at which the game is set.
I vote no.
The WoD games...by their very nature, had the least amount of action. Conflict...posturing...primping...et al? Yes. But action? No.
As for sitting around and just watching in EVE...how? You can set and forget things, while you go about doing whatever. It puts a priority on action, allowing you to do other secondary items on the side. Training is not a priority, the market is not a priority, manufacturing is not a priority, the new PI is not... in other games, you are forced to an extent to sit and watch - but not EVE.
So I found this post interesting in all sorts of manners...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
I could never get into Eve becuase it was too much sitting and watching as events would slowly unfold,the skill system added to the dullness.
Im assuming WoD will have alot more action to it,thus it should have its own skill system that compliments the pace at which the game is set.
I vote no.
The WoD games...by their very nature, had the least amount of action. Conflict...posturing...primping...et al? Yes. But action? No.
As for sitting around and just watching in EVE...how? You can set and forget things, while you go about doing whatever. It puts a priority on action, allowing you to do other secondary items on the side. Training is not a priority, the market is not a priority, manufacturing is not a priority, the new PI is not... in other games, you are forced to an extent to sit and watch - but not EVE.
So I found this post interesting in all sorts of manners...
I find Eve pretty boring over all...
I found myself sitting and watching quite a bit.. how?
traveling from jumpgate to jumpgate,mining,even the action was mostly just sitting and watching from what I experienced..The whole game seemed like it was "set and forget"
as for WoD,I will say I dont know much about it,never played the table top or the pen and paper or whatever it is.I just assumed it was more active based on the trailer released.
Comments
Games need to be played to be called games.
Playing the game to progress in it is the primary logic of any game.
Whether it is monopoly, risk, a single player videogame or an MMO.
So no, this goes almost straight in against that.
Almost as badly as using microtransactions and other outside sources which aren't part of the game in order to progress in it.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Well, there are a few like that in pen and paper too but they are not so common.
But I agree, there should be a more to a MMO than getting loot and leveling. Those are not the main part of P&P games, tha is to have as much fun as possible instead.
I cant say I am 100% for a passive system but if they do chose to use that type of system in the game I would have to cast a vote for the type that Vindictus uses. Now with that being said what I 95% believe in is no passive system at all. What kind of logic is used when one thinks you can get better at something by not doing it or doing anything. I feel that any game should have skill advancement based on the addage of You reap what you sew. If that would be put in place in a manner that is entertaining and thought provoking would only add to the level of realism and immersion into the game. I am looking forward to this game for the fact that I may actualy be able to find an MMORPG that I can play alongside my wife. Only time will tell on all counts.
id imagine theyve learned a lot from Eve. Having an impossible gap to close between old and new will surely stop any passive learning. Also players not bothering to play just logging in to update skill training qs is hardly healthy.
This objection makes no sense. Progression is not the same as playing. I'm not playing Monopoly when it is in a box in the closet. I am not playing EVE when I am offline. If WoD has passive skill progression it is only being played when I am online having fun with it. That would be true whether or not there was any skill progression at all.
Well said. It's so difficult to comprehend that a game may have goals other than character progression. Yes, you want your character to get stronger, but your strength is only a means to an end, not the end itself. Therefore, it does not matter whether it increases actively or passively. In reality, for EVE, it's both; you can have all the skills you want, but without ISK, a ship, the right equipment, and experience, you're as useful as a steamed vegetable. Y'know how you get those things? By playing the game. Gasp.
Well they can preen over stats, but it's really not what the game is about, in contrast to games like WoW where your character sheet really is what the game is about.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
You play a game to be able to do a certain task/s that you enjoy, not to simply level up. Top players 'progress' in terms of skill and ability within a games ruleset, not simply by levelling.
Personally I don't care eitherway if WoD has a passive skill progression or not. Everyone will be in the same boat so what's the issue.
It always cracks me up when people think you can simply skill up offline for 10 months or so then go in and be at the same level as someone who has actually played the game for those 10 months, learning the in's and out's and ingratiating themselves into a games community.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I had the same turnoff to eve. Fun is the bottom line for these games.
Nice vampire mining! Gather up a few blood dolls and build your own blood bank.
What could be scary is the clothing options. Lots of goth looking velvet or black leather/vinyl everywhere.
For the life of me I will never understand why people are so attached to skill grinding. Oh well, dif'rent strokes and all that. At least WoD wont have learning skills.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Heck no, time based learning is silly, and doesnt allow the player to accualy have a direct influence over his training
Mess with the best, Die like the rest
Yeah, but when the ability to preform tasks efficently is impacted by level, then leveling up becomes a major focus of the game. I power game to get the leveling over with so that I can enjoy the freedom of doing tasks high levels afford.
To me the grinding system and the waiting system both suck (pardon the pun). Sure Eve is nice in that you spend your game time playing and not grinding, but still in Eve there are times in which you have to just wait to play.
My ideal system would do away with XP/time based skill/level acusition. Instead I'd prefer a system where other players can teach you the skills they have which you lack OR you search for rare NPCs to be taught rare skills OR you buy the mundane skills for game currency from novice trainer NPCs. As you see I am not totally against progression, but I am against mindless grinding and passive waiting.
-So I did not vote in this poll really because to have voted would have suggested I prefer one end in this illusionary dichotimy of Grind VS Wait.
--When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii.
--In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses.
--The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence!
--CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.
Yeah I find that I'm much more immersed by grinding identical mobs for hours instead of, you know, playing the game.
Anyway, our opinions are moot. The skill system, whatever it is, has long been decided. If I had to bet, I'd go with a highly modified hybrid version of the EVE system, probably some passive elements, some active. Simply being able to grind mobz for XP would be the worst possible thing for an RP-centric game.
Come to that CCP themselves said it would be PvP focused (in the EvE sense of PvP basically meaning all competitive player interaction, not just combat). How do you award XP for intriguing to get a rival cast out?
Give me liberty or give me lasers
If a game encourages you to grind identical mobs, it's a badly designed game. Many XP-based games nowadays are designed so that you're not encouraged to grind repetitively. The others? They're bad games and not really worth discussing -- there are bad implementations of all sorts of systems, but that doesn't necessarily mean the concept is bad: merely the implementation.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Certain aspects of the game should be passive and time based (imo).
They need to be careful because a system that seperated newer players from veteran players would most definately be catastrophic for long term gaming, HOWEVER a system with smaller time based skill gains that have nothing to do with combat but social aspects could easily work. Whether it be crafting, politics, or even "reputation", etc.
Things that should NEVER be passive-time gained would be combat abilities stats, and anything that gave you a combat advantage. Once you get rid of the risk vs. reward in any MMO, it becomes dull and lifeless really fast with nothing to really strive for and get excited for when you do achieve anything.
I could never get into Eve becuase it was too much sitting and watching as events would slowly unfold,the skill system added to the dullness.
Im assuming WoD will have alot more action to it,thus it should have its own skill system that compliments the pace at which the game is set.
I vote no.
The WoD games...by their very nature, had the least amount of action. Conflict...posturing...primping...et al? Yes. But action? No.
As for sitting around and just watching in EVE...how? You can set and forget things, while you go about doing whatever. It puts a priority on action, allowing you to do other secondary items on the side. Training is not a priority, the market is not a priority, manufacturing is not a priority, the new PI is not... in other games, you are forced to an extent to sit and watch - but not EVE.
So I found this post interesting in all sorts of manners...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I find Eve pretty boring over all...
I found myself sitting and watching quite a bit.. how?
traveling from jumpgate to jumpgate,mining,even the action was mostly just sitting and watching from what I experienced..The whole game seemed like it was "set and forget"
as for WoD,I will say I dont know much about it,never played the table top or the pen and paper or whatever it is.I just assumed it was more active based on the trailer released.