zzzzzzzaclty, you can't just go and discover America, AGAIN, you might get stabbed in your sleep by C. Columbus
Actually, Columbus rediscovered the Americas. Leif Ericson discovered North America long before Columbus made it here (the Norse even had a colony in Newfoundland for a few years), and of course the Native Americans were here first.
Ummm, no!! Amerigo Vespucci discovered the 'Americas' in the early 1500s. Notice anything similar in the name?
zzzzzzzaclty, you can't just go and discover America, AGAIN, you might get stabbed in your sleep by C. Columbus
Actually, Columbus rediscovered the Americas. Leif Ericson discovered North America long before Columbus made it here (the Norse even had a colony in Newfoundland for a few years), and of course the Native Americans were here first.
Ummm, no!! Amerigo Vespucci discovered the 'Americas' in the early 1500s. Notice anything similar in the name?
Sorry, Columbus beat Vespucci by a few years. Granted he origininally thought he was somewhere else, and he didn't explore as much of the North, Central, and South American coastlines as Vespucci did, but he did get here and sail around a bit before Vespucci did. Still, as I said, the Norse were the first Europeans to discover the Western Hemisphere.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
So lets see you **** do better. Jesus christ does everyone on this website feel the need to downplay any and all achievments.
No, just most of us have a higher standard of what constitutes an "achievement". Being ranked with the guys who made the biggest rubberband and tinfoil balls somehow doesn't quite make it.
you made me snort soda from my nose, good comment.
I was familiar with the Syndicate back in UO. Ours was a larger competing guild but the Syndicate was well known for self-promotion. I remember several years later seeing an MMO hint guide on a store shelf that gave them credit for some quest content. While I have not heard of them since, I personally do not put too much stock in their Guiness feat. There are quite a few other guilds who have been around longer but choose to focus less on commercialism and more on their mainstay of actually playing games.
Del Cabon A US Army ('Just Cause') Vet and MMORPG Native formerly of Trinsic, Norath and Dereth. Currently playing LOTRO.
I find it interesting (or suspect) that the announcement comes from the Syndicate themselves rather than from Guinness. Has anyone found independent confirmation that they were actually awarded an entry in the Book?
They admit that there are older guilds but claim the difference is continuous operation. That would be pretty hard to prove; I've been in guilds that go through peaks and valleys of activity, some even becoming dormant for long periods of time but continuing to exist because most games don't auto-disband a guild for lack of activity. Shouldn't a better yardstick be the actual level of activity?
I've been recruited to guilds whose sole purpose seemed to be padding out their roster. They hosted no events (other than recruitment drives, in which officers spammed players sight-unseen with invitations to join), offered no real help, and didn't even bother to get to know the people they'd recruited. This seems to be where larger guilds fall apart: once one grows larger than a certain size, they cease to be interested in the daily needs of their players, and become a self-expanding self-promotion machine. This is reinforced in games that reward guilds for increasing their membership. I suspect that that is what the Syndicate really does well.
I think an even better yardstick would be how well an organisation fulfills the in-game purpose of a guild. Simply existing continuously for 14 years across multiple games doesn't necessarily mean that you are doing anything remotely "guild-like", if we define the purpose of a guild as providing an enhanced experience for your members, playing together regularly, offering assistance, etc. The Syndicate claims to do all this, but we'd need testimonials from members to prove it. Most of the guilds I've been in have made similar claims, but I've rarely found their claims to bear any relationship to reality.
The Syndicate was in NwN and in UO. But I dont really count multi gaming clans as a guild.
It would be the same as saying Im from a Christan clan but my guild is Lurthran.
The Syndicate was *NEVER* in NWN on AOL. I played NWN heavily and was part of the core community for the game. The first guild in NWN on AOL was Guild of Chaos followed by Crusaders of the Realm. I think GoC still has a presence somewhere today and there are other guilds too. This link is an old NWN resource that is thorough and complete. They have a complete list of every single guild that ever graced the presence of NWN. You'll notice that The Syndicate was not listed. Not to mention the fact that Dragons even admitted of his own accord that they didn't get their start until 96. NWN started in 1991.
Rarely do we post in public but given this is a special event for us, we wanted to make a few comments regarding the Guinness World Record™ (yes, the little TM is actually required by Guinness since the whole phrase is their Trademark).
To be clear, we do not claim to be the first guild ever founded. Our claim was the oldest in continuous operation since its founding. There have been a variety of comments made in regards to whether this record is worthy of being measured and recorded but that is certainly a matter of personal opinion and not something we are speaking to. Additionally, there are comments about the 'l33tness' of The Syndicate mixed into this thread. Those are also personal opinion and not something we are here to change opinions on. We feel the history spelled out on llts.org sufficiently speaks for itself even though it is intentionally incomplete as it does not spell out a huge number of behind the scenes game development projects we have been and are still involved in; the results of which you probably even enjoyed at some point without even realizing they were something we helped to create.
We are intending to offer some clarification on a couple of points made, however. Comments have been made that other groups were founded earlier. Our claim is not to being the first guild ever made. It is to being the oldest, continuously operating guild. Comments were made that other groups have operated continuously as long or longer. To make such a claim and obtain a GWR, indepedent, verifiable evidence has to be provided such as legal documents and published works. Those documents have to both validate the date of creation of the entity and also show an unbroken timeline from creation to the record attempt. A website is not sufficient documentation and a personal claim that 'so and so' has been around forever is not accepted. Proof has to be independent, published works from verifiable and reputable sources. We were able to supply a large amount of such documentation and thus able to make the claim and back it up. Guinness did a lengthy and detailed analysis over a ten month period of online gaming guilds and sources of online gaming information that meet the requirements to be considered proof. They concluded that not only did our proof validate our claim of age and continuous operation but also that there was no other reasonable claim to be made out there that had similar levels of proof.
We understand passions run high when topics of 'first' or 'oldest' or 'best' are made. We understand opinions are unlikely to change regardless of the process that was undertaken to reach the conclusion. An old quote seems particularly applicable to this situation and it reads: "For those who believe, no explanation is necessary; for those who do not believe, no explanation will suffice." So while opinions are not likely to change after reading this post, we hope that the explanation of the process does help clear up any misconceptions. More information is available on our website should that be of interest to you, including a copy of the actual world record document for the person who expressed doubt it existed at all.
To be clear, we do not claim to be the first guild ever founded. Our claim was the oldest in continuous operation since its founding.
Which is not true as was already pointed out. The Syndicate is not the oldest guild in continuous operation. Quite honestly as a gamer and someone whose been around since the old days of the original MMO's I find this insulting. Not to be hoitey toitey, as that's not my way, but I prefer to look at things as is. A mediocre of honesty and humility would get you much farther. How does the saying go, you attract alot more flies with honey then vinegar. It's easy to get people that aren't in the know of games and gaming when they don't understand what is going on. People do it all the time, it's called marketing.
They get people to buy things all the time that they do not need or want just by giving a good sales pitch or in your case, being misleading and trying to change the facts into something that they clearly are not. You won't get any respect from others when you tell tall tales that simply are not the truth. I've always said, you can't lie to the people. People aren't stupid. People always know the truth in the end. I doubt you'd be too happy, let alone your guildmates, if someone were to go to Guiness and show them the truth, and then you'd have your record revoked.
Banegrivm Leader of the 1st Fist of Light www.1stfistoflight.com
Which is not true as was already pointed out. The Syndicate is not the oldest guild in continuous operation. Quite honestly as a gamer and as someone whose been around since the days of the original MMO's, I find this insulting. Not to be hoitey toitey, as that's not my way, but I prefer to look at things as is. You can say they are something they are not, and tell the world something is something that is not, but at the end of the day, a spade is still a spade. You can't change the color of the sky just because you decide that's what it is. A mediocre of honest and humility would have honestly gotten you much farther. How does the saying go, you attract alot more flies with honey then vinegar. It's easy to get people that aren't in the know of games and gaming (and it's relevant history) when they do not simply even understand it.
People do it all the time; it's called marketing. They get people to buy things all the time that they do not need nor really want just by having a good sales pitch or in your case, being misleading and trying to change the facts into something that they are clearly not. You won't get any respect from others when you tell tall tales that simply are not the truth. I've always said, you can't lie to the people. People are not stupid. People always know the truth in the end. I doubt you'd be too happy let alone your guildmates if someone were to go to Guiness and show them the truth, and then you'd have your guilds record revoked; and rightly so. I wouldn't fault anyone for doing that, especially the guilds that were in continuous operation long before The Syndicate was even a passing thought.
Banegrivm Leader of the 1st Fist of Light www.1stfistoflight.com
Baengrivm, you do get the fact that there is no "truth" to be revealed, right? You are speaking incorrectly. There is a record attempt that was made, which someone else could also apply for; supply evidence to substantiate their claim; and set a new record. The current record stands until it is broken. That is the nature of the process. That said, in order to beat the current record a guild will have to supply indepedent, verifiable evidence such as legal documents and published works. Websites and testimonials are not accepted. You can't say "look at this site! it says 1991!" and you can't say "I've been in a guild since 1991 and its been active the whole time."
Instead, you must supply published documentation from independent, verifiable sources that not only validates the date of creation of the entity but that also forms an unbroken chain of evidence proving continuous operation that spans the lifetime of the entity. Acceptable forms of documentation include things such as legal documents (incorporation papers perhaps? trademarks? tax returns from revenue obtained under the name of that entity? formal consulting contracts done under the name of that entity?) and published works (books about the entity or containing chapters written by the entity, print magazines with articles about the entity or written by the entity etc..). To prove a span of 15+ years will require a great many pieces of documentation all throughout that period all of which are from legal or published, independent sources.
Your contention about revealing "the truth" is akin to saying "aha! I can do more pushups than the Guinness record says! I will tell them the record is false." at which time they will tell you to apply for a record setting attempt yourself and prove you can do more push-ups in their accepted, veriable manner. If you succeed, then you set a new record and get to claim you can do more push-ups than the previous record holder. Until that time, the existing record setter holds the title.
You can certainly discount the record, much the way you would discount whether you can beat any other record (or know someone who can) but unless you have 15 years worth of an unbroken chain of legal or published, independent documentation such as trademarks, tax returns, books etc.. the current record is what it is. The Syndicate has that chain of evidence and can prove its lifespan's length and its continuous operation. You may not like that we can and did produce well over 100 documents spanning that lifespan but that is what was done and the record was set.
No I spoke correctly and factually. You're simply trying to rewrite history and using a legal means to make it suit your own agenda. You're quite the "business man" as you yourself have previously likened to point out. Again I'll say, you can't fool the people. You can't change the facts as they are. Just because it's in Guiness doesn't make it true. Of course, you already know that. You can hold a record on paper, but that doesn't mean squat in comparison to the facts, but of course you already know that. Effectively you have done two things:
1. Told a lie.
2. Stole a title that does not properly belong to you, yet to an actual guild that has been in continuous operation long before The Syndicate, which I notice you did not dispute.
You're never going to get respect from anyone with such behavior. You should be careful where you step. One of these days you'll step somewhere you shouldn't have taking the same attitude only to have someone waiting that's already prepared. You just never know, someone might have proper "documentation" and be easily able to dethrone you, such as the people from Blade Keep. I know for a fact that they had a legal documented copyright as of at least 1994, which is two years from before The Syndicate ever even existed. But again, as I already stated... you can cry legal all you like. You can't lie to the people. They know the truth.
The road your on isn't making you or your guild any friends. The only thing you're doing is fanning the flames of a fire you created, while earning both ire and resentment for both you and your guild from individuals and groups from within the MMO community.
Respect from your peers is something that is earned, not given with self appointed titles gained through legal maneuvering.
Banegrivm Leader of the 1st Fist of Light www.1stfistoflight.com
Instead, you must supply published documentation from independent, verifiable sources that not only validates the date of creation of the entity but that also forms an unbroken chain of evidence proving continuous operation that spans the lifetime of the entity. Acceptable forms of documentation include things such as legal documents (incorporation papers perhaps? trademarks? tax returns from revenue obtained under the name of that entity? formal consulting contracts done under the name of that entity?) and published works (books about the entity or containing chapters written by the entity, print magazines with articles about the entity or written by the entity etc..). To prove a span of 15+ years will require a great many pieces of documentation all throughout that period all of which are from legal or published, independent sources.
...
You can certainly discount the record, much the way you would discount whether you can beat any other record (or know someone who can) but unless you have 15 years worth of an unbroken chain of legal or published, independent documentation such as trademarks, tax returns, books etc.. the current record is what it is. The Syndicate has that chain of evidence and can prove its lifespan's length and its continuous operation. You may not like that we can and did produce well over 100 documents spanning that lifespan but that is what was done and the record was set.
I would say that someone needs to contact Guinness and point out the flaws in this method of varification
Anyone notice the word "Online"? And yet the proof GWR want is based on Offline records?
By the nature of the beast... online guilds tend to conduct their business ...er... online?
So asking for offline documentation is kind of akin to looking at one of these companies
and saying... you must provide a tax file number, a company number, and Insurance records to validate your claim? Or mayber even telling them that they could not be considered as a company until they had a website!?
In many cases wouldn't the only record be the continuous use of a domain name?
Someone on this site (when the book about this guild was published) claimed they had put some kind of copyright on "the Syndicate" , they contacted him ingame and threatened him with sueing him for having created a guild with a similar name. If that story is true, they should also win the record for the Lamest Guild.
Someone on this site (when the book about this guild was published) claimed they had put some kind of copyright on "the Syndicate" , they contacted him ingame and threatened him with sueing him for having created a guild with a similar name. If that story is true, they should also win the record for the Lamest Guild.
If you understand trademarks and copyrights, the 'Syndicate' guild can't do this. If they would try, it would be funny, though.
Rarely do we post in public but given this is a special event for us, we wanted to make a few comments regarding the Guinness World Record™ (yes, the little TM is actually required by Guinness since the whole phrase is their Trademark).
To be clear, we do not claim to be the first guild ever founded. Our claim was the oldest in continuous operation since its founding. There have been a variety of comments made in regards to whether this record is worthy of being measured and recorded but that is certainly a matter of personal opinion and not something we are speaking to. Additionally, there are comments about the 'l33tness' of The Syndicate mixed into this thread. Those are also personal opinion and not something we are here to change opinions on. We feel the history spelled out on llts.org sufficiently speaks for itself even though it is intentionally incomplete as it does not spell out a huge number of behind the scenes game development projects we have been and are still involved in; the results of which you probably even enjoyed at some point without even realizing they were something we helped to create.
We are intending to offer some clarification on a couple of points made, however. Comments have been made that other groups were founded earlier. Our claim is not to being the first guild ever made. It is to being the oldest, continuously operating guild. Comments were made that other groups have operated continuously as long or longer. To make such a claim and obtain a GWR, indepedent, verifiable evidence has to be provided such as legal documents and published works. Those documents have to both validate the date of creation of the entity and also show an unbroken timeline from creation to the record attempt. A website is not sufficient documentation and a personal claim that 'so and so' has been around forever is not accepted. Proof has to be independent, published works from verifiable and reputable sources. We were able to supply a large amount of such documentation and thus able to make the claim and back it up. Guinness did a lengthy and detailed analysis over a ten month period of online gaming guilds and sources of online gaming information that meet the requirements to be considered proof. They concluded that not only did our proof validate our claim of age and continuous operation but also that there was no other reasonable claim to be made out there that had similar levels of proof.
We understand passions run high when topics of 'first' or 'oldest' or 'best' are made. We understand opinions are unlikely to change regardless of the process that was undertaken to reach the conclusion. An old quote seems particularly applicable to this situation and it reads: "For those who believe, no explanation is necessary; for those who do not believe, no explanation will suffice." So while opinions are not likely to change after reading this post, we hope that the explanation of the process does help clear up any misconceptions. More information is available on our website should that be of interest to you, including a copy of the actual world record document for the person who expressed doubt it existed at all.
So long story short, you were the only ones with enough spare time to bother applying for this dubious honor, so you won by default.
Edit: You musty have to fight off the job offers with a stick. I mean, with "I'm the CEO of a gaming guild." on your resume, how can you go wrong?
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.- -And on the 8th day, man created God.-
Smoke and mirrors, heck I was in a Diablo guild which eventually moved to UO, then to AC1, then to Wow, and they still exist. Have they been continuous, who knows, who cares?
I just don't see the point of arguing over such a meaningless claim. Everyone perceives truth from a different angle. Trying to shoehorn black and white into a world made of shades of grey does not fly. You are just wasting your time.
I was familiar with the Syndicate back in UO. Ours was a larger competing guild but the Syndicate was well known for self-promotion. I remember several years later seeing an MMO hint guide on a store shelf that gave them credit for some quest content.
That would more than likely have been the LotRO quest guide (the second LotRO guide Prima produced). I remember the Prima forums before that came out; people were giving Prima flak because the book was running way behind. Prima's response was that they were waiting for the next update before releasing it, but people pointed out that they had used that excuse for the first guide and nothing introduced in the first update was actually in the book. Someone also asked why The Syndicate was being prominently promoted along with the guide, and Prima responded that members of the Syndicate were compiling the information. That started another wave of posts with people wondering why they were compiling the information at all; one of The Syndicate's leaders hopped into the thread and was going back and forth with some of the posters.
When the guide finally released, it was discovered that the advertised "quest walkthroughs" and "secerets revealed" claims were a sham; every quest listed in the book only had the text that a player would see after accepting a quest and then looking at it in their quest log. That of course started a ton of angry posts, and the last post I remember in regards to The Syndicate was that they should be ashamed of having their name associated with the 'guide.' As I recall, the Syndicate guild leader who had been posting in their defense, but mostly just promoting his guild, never posted in that thread again. The guide was so bad, and was not even close to how the cover was promoting it, that Prima was giving the e-book purchasers of the guid full refunds, no questions asked.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
Being part of an NWN guild what was created in 95 (and there are even older surviving guilds from that game alone), i can only laugh at this article and it's self-promotion nonsense.
Most guilds focus in playing the games and keeping many personalities from clashing too much with eachothers (and as many ppl know, it takes alot of time, effort and patience) instead of trying to pull lame PR moves.
Congrats though, i'm sure there will be many Official confirmations on you guys being the oldest running douchebag guild!
The Syndicate was in NwN and in UO. But I dont really count multi gaming clans as a guild.
It would be the same as saying Im from a Christan clan but my guild is Lurthran.
The Syndicate was *NEVER* in NWN on AOL. I played NWN heavily and was part of the core community for the game. The first guild in NWN on AOL was Guild of Chaos followed by Crusaders of the Realm. I think GoC still has a presence somewhere today and there are other guilds too. This link is an old NWN resource that is thorough and complete. They have a complete list of every single guild that ever graced the presence of NWN. You'll notice that The Syndicate was not listed. Not to mention the fact that Dragons even admitted of his own accord that they didn't get their start until 96. NWN started in 1991.
That site is ran by an old NWN guild that was around and still around from before The Syndicate as an FYI.
Was gonna say I'm one of the old crowd gamers and until recent years I'd never heard of The Syndicate. I played on AOL back in 1992 until 1996 in NWN, had characters in GOC (Guild of Chaos), KAAOS (Killing As An Ogranized Sport), COR( Crusaders of Light) and The Grey Company.
Also played on GEnie in Mechwarrior and was a part of House Davion under GR(Ghostrider/Jim) and for a time a member of The Clans (under ICE/Rich).
Then you can look to games like Gemstone III with House Arcane (which is basically a type of guild) that has been around and still active since 1991/2'ish. I know they still have members active in Gemstone and in EQII.
I'm sure The Syndicate has been around some years, but there will be quite a few coming out the wood work to dethrone their claim of being the oldest guild/house/kinship whatever you want to call it.
Comments
Ummm, no!! Amerigo Vespucci discovered the 'Americas' in the early 1500s. Notice anything similar in the name?
Boo for a german cartographer
also how can someone discover something when other humans already lived there? Hey I discovered Walmart!
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
The Syndicate was in NwN and in UO. But I dont really count multi gaming clans as a guild.
It would be the same as saying Im from a Christan clan but my guild is Lurthran.
http://clan-exodus.guildportal.com
Sorry, Columbus beat Vespucci by a few years. Granted he origininally thought he was somewhere else, and he didn't explore as much of the North, Central, and South American coastlines as Vespucci did, but he did get here and sail around a bit before Vespucci did. Still, as I said, the Norse were the first Europeans to discover the Western Hemisphere.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
you made me snort soda from my nose, good comment.
Currently bored with MMO's.
sigh, no rants....
Amerigo got good press .
I was familiar with the Syndicate back in UO. Ours was a larger competing guild but the Syndicate was well known for self-promotion. I remember several years later seeing an MMO hint guide on a store shelf that gave them credit for some quest content. While I have not heard of them since, I personally do not put too much stock in their Guiness feat. There are quite a few other guilds who have been around longer but choose to focus less on commercialism and more on their mainstay of actually playing games.
Del Cabon
A US Army ('Just Cause') Vet and MMORPG Native formerly of Trinsic, Norath and Dereth. Currently playing LOTRO.
I find it interesting (or suspect) that the announcement comes from the Syndicate themselves rather than from Guinness. Has anyone found independent confirmation that they were actually awarded an entry in the Book?
They admit that there are older guilds but claim the difference is continuous operation. That would be pretty hard to prove; I've been in guilds that go through peaks and valleys of activity, some even becoming dormant for long periods of time but continuing to exist because most games don't auto-disband a guild for lack of activity. Shouldn't a better yardstick be the actual level of activity?
I've been recruited to guilds whose sole purpose seemed to be padding out their roster. They hosted no events (other than recruitment drives, in which officers spammed players sight-unseen with invitations to join), offered no real help, and didn't even bother to get to know the people they'd recruited. This seems to be where larger guilds fall apart: once one grows larger than a certain size, they cease to be interested in the daily needs of their players, and become a self-expanding self-promotion machine. This is reinforced in games that reward guilds for increasing their membership. I suspect that that is what the Syndicate really does well.
I think an even better yardstick would be how well an organisation fulfills the in-game purpose of a guild. Simply existing continuously for 14 years across multiple games doesn't necessarily mean that you are doing anything remotely "guild-like", if we define the purpose of a guild as providing an enhanced experience for your members, playing together regularly, offering assistance, etc. The Syndicate claims to do all this, but we'd need testimonials from members to prove it. Most of the guilds I've been in have made similar claims, but I've rarely found their claims to bear any relationship to reality.
The Syndicate was *NEVER* in NWN on AOL. I played NWN heavily and was part of the core community for the game. The first guild in NWN on AOL was Guild of Chaos followed by Crusaders of the Realm. I think GoC still has a presence somewhere today and there are other guilds too. This link is an old NWN resource that is thorough and complete. They have a complete list of every single guild that ever graced the presence of NWN. You'll notice that The Syndicate was not listed. Not to mention the fact that Dragons even admitted of his own accord that they didn't get their start until 96. NWN started in 1991.
NWN from AOL Archive
http://www.bladekeep.com/nwn/
That site is ran by an old NWN guild that was around and still around from before The Syndicate as an FYI.
Banegrivm
Leader of the 1st Fist of Light
www.1stfistoflight.com
Rarely do we post in public but given this is a special event for us, we wanted to make a few comments regarding the Guinness World Record™ (yes, the little TM is actually required by Guinness since the whole phrase is their Trademark).
To be clear, we do not claim to be the first guild ever founded. Our claim was the oldest in continuous operation since its founding. There have been a variety of comments made in regards to whether this record is worthy of being measured and recorded but that is certainly a matter of personal opinion and not something we are speaking to. Additionally, there are comments about the 'l33tness' of The Syndicate mixed into this thread. Those are also personal opinion and not something we are here to change opinions on. We feel the history spelled out on llts.org sufficiently speaks for itself even though it is intentionally incomplete as it does not spell out a huge number of behind the scenes game development projects we have been and are still involved in; the results of which you probably even enjoyed at some point without even realizing they were something we helped to create.
We are intending to offer some clarification on a couple of points made, however. Comments have been made that other groups were founded earlier. Our claim is not to being the first guild ever made. It is to being the oldest, continuously operating guild. Comments were made that other groups have operated continuously as long or longer. To make such a claim and obtain a GWR, indepedent, verifiable evidence has to be provided such as legal documents and published works. Those documents have to both validate the date of creation of the entity and also show an unbroken timeline from creation to the record attempt. A website is not sufficient documentation and a personal claim that 'so and so' has been around forever is not accepted. Proof has to be independent, published works from verifiable and reputable sources. We were able to supply a large amount of such documentation and thus able to make the claim and back it up. Guinness did a lengthy and detailed analysis over a ten month period of online gaming guilds and sources of online gaming information that meet the requirements to be considered proof. They concluded that not only did our proof validate our claim of age and continuous operation but also that there was no other reasonable claim to be made out there that had similar levels of proof.
We understand passions run high when topics of 'first' or 'oldest' or 'best' are made. We understand opinions are unlikely to change regardless of the process that was undertaken to reach the conclusion. An old quote seems particularly applicable to this situation and it reads: "For those who believe, no explanation is necessary; for those who do not believe, no explanation will suffice." So while opinions are not likely to change after reading this post, we hope that the explanation of the process does help clear up any misconceptions. More information is available on our website should that be of interest to you, including a copy of the actual world record document for the person who expressed doubt it existed at all.
The Syndicate
Banegrivm
Leader of the 1st Fist of Light
www.1stfistoflight.com
Which is not true as was already pointed out. The Syndicate is not the oldest guild in continuous operation. Quite honestly as a gamer and as someone whose been around since the days of the original MMO's, I find this insulting. Not to be hoitey toitey, as that's not my way, but I prefer to look at things as is. You can say they are something they are not, and tell the world something is something that is not, but at the end of the day, a spade is still a spade. You can't change the color of the sky just because you decide that's what it is. A mediocre of honest and humility would have honestly gotten you much farther. How does the saying go, you attract alot more flies with honey then vinegar. It's easy to get people that aren't in the know of games and gaming (and it's relevant history) when they do not simply even understand it.
People do it all the time; it's called marketing. They get people to buy things all the time that they do not need nor really want just by having a good sales pitch or in your case, being misleading and trying to change the facts into something that they are clearly not. You won't get any respect from others when you tell tall tales that simply are not the truth. I've always said, you can't lie to the people. People are not stupid. People always know the truth in the end. I doubt you'd be too happy let alone your guildmates if someone were to go to Guiness and show them the truth, and then you'd have your guilds record revoked; and rightly so. I wouldn't fault anyone for doing that, especially the guilds that were in continuous operation long before The Syndicate was even a passing thought.
Banegrivm
Leader of the 1st Fist of Light
www.1stfistoflight.com
Baengrivm, you do get the fact that there is no "truth" to be revealed, right? You are speaking incorrectly. There is a record attempt that was made, which someone else could also apply for; supply evidence to substantiate their claim; and set a new record. The current record stands until it is broken. That is the nature of the process. That said, in order to beat the current record a guild will have to supply indepedent, verifiable evidence such as legal documents and published works. Websites and testimonials are not accepted. You can't say "look at this site! it says 1991!" and you can't say "I've been in a guild since 1991 and its been active the whole time."
Instead, you must supply published documentation from independent, verifiable sources that not only validates the date of creation of the entity but that also forms an unbroken chain of evidence proving continuous operation that spans the lifetime of the entity. Acceptable forms of documentation include things such as legal documents (incorporation papers perhaps? trademarks? tax returns from revenue obtained under the name of that entity? formal consulting contracts done under the name of that entity?) and published works (books about the entity or containing chapters written by the entity, print magazines with articles about the entity or written by the entity etc..). To prove a span of 15+ years will require a great many pieces of documentation all throughout that period all of which are from legal or published, independent sources.
Your contention about revealing "the truth" is akin to saying "aha! I can do more pushups than the Guinness record says! I will tell them the record is false." at which time they will tell you to apply for a record setting attempt yourself and prove you can do more push-ups in their accepted, veriable manner. If you succeed, then you set a new record and get to claim you can do more push-ups than the previous record holder. Until that time, the existing record setter holds the title.
You can certainly discount the record, much the way you would discount whether you can beat any other record (or know someone who can) but unless you have 15 years worth of an unbroken chain of legal or published, independent documentation such as trademarks, tax returns, books etc.. the current record is what it is. The Syndicate has that chain of evidence and can prove its lifespan's length and its continuous operation. You may not like that we can and did produce well over 100 documents spanning that lifespan but that is what was done and the record was set.
The Syndicate
No I spoke correctly and factually. You're simply trying to rewrite history and using a legal means to make it suit your own agenda. You're quite the "business man" as you yourself have previously likened to point out. Again I'll say, you can't fool the people. You can't change the facts as they are. Just because it's in Guiness doesn't make it true. Of course, you already know that. You can hold a record on paper, but that doesn't mean squat in comparison to the facts, but of course you already know that. Effectively you have done two things:
1. Told a lie.
2. Stole a title that does not properly belong to you, yet to an actual guild that has been in continuous operation long before The Syndicate, which I notice you did not dispute.
You're never going to get respect from anyone with such behavior. You should be careful where you step. One of these days you'll step somewhere you shouldn't have taking the same attitude only to have someone waiting that's already prepared. You just never know, someone might have proper "documentation" and be easily able to dethrone you, such as the people from Blade Keep. I know for a fact that they had a legal documented copyright as of at least 1994, which is two years from before The Syndicate ever even existed. But again, as I already stated... you can cry legal all you like. You can't lie to the people. They know the truth.
The road your on isn't making you or your guild any friends. The only thing you're doing is fanning the flames of a fire you created, while earning both ire and resentment for both you and your guild from individuals and groups from within the MMO community.
Respect from your peers is something that is earned, not given with self appointed titles gained through legal maneuvering.
Banegrivm
Leader of the 1st Fist of Light
www.1stfistoflight.com
I would say that someone needs to contact Guinness and point out the flaws in this method of varification
Anyone notice the word "Online"? And yet the proof GWR want is based on Offline records?
By the nature of the beast... online guilds tend to conduct their business ...er... online?
So asking for offline documentation is kind of akin to looking at one of these companies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_companies
and saying... you must provide a tax file number, a company number, and Insurance records to validate your claim? Or mayber even telling them that they could not be considered as a company until they had a website!?
In many cases wouldn't the only record be the continuous use of a domain name?
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Someone on this site (when the book about this guild was published) claimed they had put some kind of copyright on "the Syndicate" , they contacted him ingame and threatened him with sueing him for having created a guild with a similar name. If that story is true, they should also win the record for the Lamest Guild.
Grats! i can only imagine what hoops you all had to go through. I hope some interesting opportunities come your way
So long story short, you were the only ones with enough spare time to bother applying for this dubious honor, so you won by default.
Edit: You musty have to fight off the job offers with a stick. I mean, with "I'm the CEO of a gaming guild." on your resume, how can you go wrong?
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
-And on the 8th day, man created God.-
I played UO since pre-alpha test... never heard of them.
Probably not a major guild or a good one.
Smoke and mirrors, heck I was in a Diablo guild which eventually moved to UO, then to AC1, then to Wow, and they still exist. Have they been continuous, who knows, who cares?
I just don't see the point of arguing over such a meaningless claim. Everyone perceives truth from a different angle. Trying to shoehorn black and white into a world made of shades of grey does not fly. You are just wasting your time.
That would more than likely have been the LotRO quest guide (the second LotRO guide Prima produced). I remember the Prima forums before that came out; people were giving Prima flak because the book was running way behind. Prima's response was that they were waiting for the next update before releasing it, but people pointed out that they had used that excuse for the first guide and nothing introduced in the first update was actually in the book. Someone also asked why The Syndicate was being prominently promoted along with the guide, and Prima responded that members of the Syndicate were compiling the information. That started another wave of posts with people wondering why they were compiling the information at all; one of The Syndicate's leaders hopped into the thread and was going back and forth with some of the posters.
When the guide finally released, it was discovered that the advertised "quest walkthroughs" and "secerets revealed" claims were a sham; every quest listed in the book only had the text that a player would see after accepting a quest and then looking at it in their quest log. That of course started a ton of angry posts, and the last post I remember in regards to The Syndicate was that they should be ashamed of having their name associated with the 'guide.' As I recall, the Syndicate guild leader who had been posting in their defense, but mostly just promoting his guild, never posted in that thread again. The guide was so bad, and was not even close to how the cover was promoting it, that Prima was giving the e-book purchasers of the guid full refunds, no questions asked.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
Being part of an NWN guild what was created in 95 (and there are even older surviving guilds from that game alone), i can only laugh at this article and it's self-promotion nonsense.
Most guilds focus in playing the games and keeping many personalities from clashing too much with eachothers (and as many ppl know, it takes alot of time, effort and patience) instead of trying to pull lame PR moves.
Congrats though, i'm sure there will be many Official confirmations on you guys being the oldest running douchebag guild!
I Completely agree on this part. Sadly it's mostly just the bold red words.
Was gonna say I'm one of the old crowd gamers and until recent years I'd never heard of The Syndicate. I played on AOL back in 1992 until 1996 in NWN, had characters in GOC (Guild of Chaos), KAAOS (Killing As An Ogranized Sport), COR( Crusaders of Light) and The Grey Company.
Also played on GEnie in Mechwarrior and was a part of House Davion under GR(Ghostrider/Jim) and for a time a member of The Clans (under ICE/Rich).
Then you can look to games like Gemstone III with House Arcane (which is basically a type of guild) that has been around and still active since 1991/2'ish. I know they still have members active in Gemstone and in EQII.
I'm sure The Syndicate has been around some years, but there will be quite a few coming out the wood work to dethrone their claim of being the oldest guild/house/kinship whatever you want to call it.