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General: Fighting Talk: Old vs New MMOs Part IV
SBFord
Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
In Part I, Part II and Part III of Adam Tingle's Fighting Talk: Old vs New MMOs, "experienced" games were pitted against "the new kids on the block" in categories including community, solo play, instances and more. In today's installment of the four-part look at Old vs New MMOs, Adam discusses Fluff, PvP and the End Game. See which group finally comes out victorious Let us know your thoughts, as always, on the forums!
As Chesney Hawk once wailed, it's the final countdown. Once and for all we can as a community categorically state just which is better: old or new MMORPGs. Oh sure people may question your right to such a statement but do not worry, just tell them that Adam Tingle, High lord of MMORPG.com's Fighting Talk, told you so.
Read more Fighting Words: Old vs New MMOs Part IV.
Comments
Overall, I agree with your assesment. New games however hold a bit more ease of use, which is good in my opinion, because if it's easy to get into, and play, means that people will play it, which means population will be persistant, thus the game will be fun to play. There is nothing worse than an MMO with no people to MMO with.
I seriously can only hope that a small company, maybe 38 studios, Cough, Cough, come on Schilling lets get it done!!!, can take some of the pasts immersion and overall "Epicness" and roll it into the new type of MMO, and finally create something that actually holds not only my business, but the community's business.
Frankly, I'm tired of buying a new game every 6 months because the one I'm playing fails so miserably.
Vack
FF XIV - the single worse game to cross my hard drive, ever.
I also agree for the most part. There were a few scores went the way of newer MMO's which I thought shouldn't have but I'll take the overall win.
P.S.
It wasn't Chesney Hawks. It was Europe. Both crap though.
Adam, seriously, if you are going to try and pose a topic such as this as an even "fight" if you will, don't pit the best views/perspectives of the old vs the worst views/perspective of the new. Obviously, you're bit on this series is heavily biased into what started as a 5 parter and ended on a 4 parter (surprise surprise). If I took the best of the New and put it against the worst of the Old, I'm sure I can score a big one for the New as well.
Poorly written, very unbalanced views unreflective of all gamers, save for the old-school hardcore crowd which are an ever dying breed these days as newer and better games take over. At least the worst of the New didn't end up wasting hours and hours of time to earn zero experience to negative experience (which happened quite often).
If you truly were to even include a balanced view at least include some categories that you know New could win such as Game Mechanics and Group Play. Seriously, dungeon/instancing with Old beating out New is a joke. Sitting in one corner of a room pulling the same 2-3 groups of mobs for hours on end in a dungeon filled with more players than monsters isn't dungeon crawling IMO, but hey if you really feel justified that the Old was THAT much greater.
It all sounds like a reality check for the writer and maybe you suffer a little bit from nostalgia
Just a little. Let me know how your Ultima Online and Everquest 1 is like these days and let me know if you're still enjoying them. I'll hunker down and try to move with the times.
Your a WoW player? If not you should know the genre is more than just combat and dungeons lol. Your also wrong when it comes to group play since older games focused on that and not 99% solo play like today's mmos.Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I'll start with saying before making such generalizations, know thy enemy (or opposition?). I have been playing MMO's since I was about 13 or 14 and MUD's since I was 11. I have started with Ultima Online and worked my way into DAOC, SWG, FFXI (very shortlived), WoW (yes I'm a WoW player but that does not discredit anyone's past history as you can see), EVE Online and have tried numerous others. Currently I play WoW because I have friends and family that do enjoy playing it (yes socialization another major factor of MMO, not really included aside from the community aspect which again very biased) and also EVE Online while looking forward to Guild Wars 2.
I never argued for New being better than Old overall, I was pointing how heavily biased the segment was in what should be something a bit more even. It wasn't really much like "Fighting Talk" which is the title of this column/segment/what-have-you. With something like Fighting Talk and compare across genres I was saying its only fair to try and be more all encompassing (like Game Mechanics and Group Play) rather than focus on the writer's favorite parts of the MMO which seemed to favor Old MMO's albeit many points still can be disagreed on even on the ones he listed.
I also disagree with your number, 99% isn't anywhere close to the solo play in even games like WoW where people are forced to group by necessity utilizing a LFG-tool.
Seems fair overall, but I fear you are in for some serious tears from the newer brigade Mr Tingle.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I was simply asking if you were a WoW player. I'n my experience people that have exclusively played wow seem to only care for combat and dungeons/ raids. I don't disagree that the article was biased, the op states is at the end of the peice. I just disagree with your choice of categories as pro New mmos. If I had to pick a few they would be new player experience UI functionality & Graphics (a given). Honestly it's all subjective anyway. I just wanted to make it clear that I wasn't trying to attack or insult you.Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Before i even read your atricle I want to laugh at your shoddy knowledge of 80s 1 hit wonders.
Europe - The final countdown
Chesney Hawkes - I am the one and only
At no point did Cheesney Hawkes sing the Final Countdown so your intoduction is fundamentaly flawed
Another great piece Adam but placing modern pvp tied with old eeeekkk , whilst these new MMO's fo have pvp it is garbage and as you mention earlier in your argument on end game often left broken by those people with 25000 DPS.
Not only where old MMO's such as DAOC but also SWG vastly superior they where not anywhere near as heavily reliant on stats and RNG as the modern MMO's.
Every PVP centric MMO of the modern era has suffered horribly from 2 problems.
1. 2 factions, DAOC's thrill was often you didnt know when the 3rd would get involved.
2. RNG and end game grinds that = massive stat increases.
it is no wonder you cannot get a PVP group in Aion regardless of how skilled you may be if you are not in the most uber of armours nor is it surprising that 2 people of the same class can go head to head 1 in the uber gear 1 in average Mr average can use everything at his disposable in a tactical manner whilst Mr Uber just facerolls his keyboard and comes out the victor.
In a quest for simple forced repeatable end game that will keep the OCD player playing till 2019 the only thing a MMo can throw at a player is more stats and saf;y these stats are the same thing that all but kills end game PVP for those who don't have 14 hrs a day to play.
Absolutely, the Uber Leet Gear Crap needs to stop........I'm tellin ya, go back to player made gear is king, These companies need to really look at DAOC, Shrouded Isles Era. Player Crafted Gear, Spellcrafted, trinkets and capes, and the almighty Template that suited each individuals uniqueness of gameplay.
Not nostalgic, just the plain ole best part/era and MMO has ever had.
Vack
FF XIV - the single worse game to cross my hard drive, ever.
and ONE CHARACTER SLOT PER ACCOUNT.
Damnit, my knowledge of 80's hits undermines me once more. I'm sure that ol' Chesney at some point wailed "it's the final countdown". Maybe as a laugh once?
I completely agree with Adam. Glad to see there are some people still who put immersion and story ahead of other "game" mechanics.
Oh, and the series isn't supposed to be unbiased. Its his opinion. He just chose this format to present it in.
Stick a fork in this series it's done. *yawn*
Shadus
That was the largest number of grammatically incorrect typoes I have ever seen in an article, even on this site. Don't you guys have an editor. If I wanted to read poorly worded commentary I would've just skipped directly to the forums. And in the interest of not just bitching, I am sure you are a nice person and many people like you.
*editted for typo. haha on me.
I don't even believe in Jeebus.
I overall liked your thoughts and I agree with the majority of what you're saying. As a MUD player originally and then finally getting into MMOs with Guild Wars, and various free Japanese MMOs, I have to say that I like what I've seen in older games better. It just seemed more intuitive. How often do you see things in the modern day games and are like "wow, I'd never thought of that before... how cool is that?" It's more like "Oh, yeah, I saw something basically the same in GW, or DAoC."
That said, I really really want to play DAoC... stupid subscriptions interfering with grad school monies.
~Hobse
Ok ill give u pvp for old Why it is genrally known the best pvp title of all time is daoc. So i cant fault u there having the best title in a certain genre of all time give u the win.
Id argue that warhammer online has pvp on par with daoc but thats me. I play wow mostly. what id really love to knwo is do u play the old mmos anymore? if not why? Im betting because newer games have much bettter uis and are easier to play.
I level alts and i really enjoy doing so in wow. U forgot hwo companion pets,mounts and other things are really more fluff then not i think new mmos have some amazing fluff. My gf loves to do achievements.
I also think the end game part is so wrong . TO raid for 12-20 hrs isnt plausible for most people. Wows end game isnt to me abou gear i ll give u most players think of it that way. I still do 10 mans on my shammy cause i love to do them not because i want the gear. Gear is nice but i know ill replace it in 2-3 months when a new tier or raids or a new xpac come out.
YOur biased opinon overruled common sense. I think if ud dont this with an unbiased view it would of been closer. Ill give u community for old mmos and ill give u group play. Now adays mmos are solo freindly. But when it comes to pve experiance wow is much more fun. Grinding for 10 hrs only to die and lose your xp or all your gear isnt fun.
Newer mmos penalty for death is less harsh. Thats a plus to pve. Imsorry but theres a reason wow is the number 1 mmo of all time in terrms of subs and it is because of its pve.
That said had this been a less biased view. Meaning u pointed out the plus and minuses for both sides u didnt do that. Hell i felt like this was a story about why mmos of old was better not a realist veiw of them. U never told us much about what the mmos of today do well u just ranted on and on abou twhat they do wrong.
Thanks for taking the time to not just waste everyones time but to do it over a four part series.
You could have summed up your highly biased opinions with one sentence: "Older games are superior in every way shape and form to newer games."
You could have simply "explained" why in yet another single sentence:"Im going to pick one old game feature to illustrate the biased unequal weight i assign value to something i like, then pick one new game that doesnt do it as well and call it a day."
I agree with your anaylsis. and if you really do as well of look as the writer, you'll see that he is telling the truth. MMOs today should just drop the RPG because its the last thing that really matters. Linear dungeon structures are so straight lined that you couldn't find an easier path in a platform game. Old school games made you feel like you were discovering a world. I remember back in FFXI, and the amazing sense of accomplishment I felt when I first traveled from Bastok to San. at 5th level with 12 other players. 2 of those players didnt make it, and there was a sense of disappointment that we couldn't bring them along.
I get why, there's more money in non-rpg folk playing an mmo. Things like adventurre and exploration take too much time for the fps, action, platform crowd. Old school rpgers are used to spending 6 to 10 hours playing a game, but nowadays, if it can't be done in 2 hours, its "too hard" or "dragging".
I've said it once, i'll say it again. There is a market for a premium mmorpg that caters to the old school rpger. I'd gladly pay 50 bucks for today's graphics with old school rpg blueprints and smaller servers.
Finally, the pain of finishing up this series is over. The following line from the closing says it all to me:
"For myself, immersion is key, I revelled in the virtual world created in earlier games and see the accessibility and overall gameness of newer MMORPGs to be a betrayal of the genres roots."
The amount of tint on those glasses is mindblowing. How old was he when he played older games again? Now, if we could get someone with less bias and more objectivity in here to write a proper versus article, it might actually be enjoyable to read.
Wrong on all accounts but the point about a market for small niche games like eq1.
There is nothing linear about eve, vanguard offers lots of exploration and sandbox type play, both have solid crafting. Newer games are superior in graphics,combat,ui,world size,fluff,solo,raid, and virtually every other category period. Community,guilds, and pvp are a wash because there are old games as well as new games that shine in these areas.
I enjoyed the hell out of games like bards tale,wizardry,might and magic,wasteland,etc. I have many fond memories of those games as i do with games like eq1 and daoc. All it takes is 5 mins in any of them to realize that those great memories are just that, memories. It takes no time at all for all the horrible mechanics and retarded "features" to remind you why you arent playing them anymore.
Amen Friend Amen.
Vack
FF XIV - the single worse game to cross my hard drive, ever.
I think this article is fairly onto the point. My big problem with the new mmo's is, well. Lets see UO came out, a big leap ahead in terms of pretty much everything. EQ got the 3d graphics in, DAOC added, well alot, ill leave it at that. AC1 fits in there. But the games these days are the same old boring thing over and over. Some raids, some battle grounds, instances, all the same old thing just differnt graphics/setting/ whatever. I mean UO back in the day, had massive player made towns, housing, animals all over (made the world feel a bit more real), pvp, good crafting. Most games these days cant even match up to that and that was hell, 13 years ago or 12. I just dont understand how so few games dare to venture into new realms, or up the notch on the games. That is my big complaint when it comes to the newer games, they don't invent, become creative, or expand on old concepts.
One key thing that i think wasnt discussed, is the quality of players. One great thing about those old school MMOs were the people you not only played with, but socialized with. Todays quality of gamer has dropped dramatically. Gone are the days of well educated, well read people to whom manners were not a foreign concept. I dont want to generalize because there are some smart kids out there, but frankly there are far more egotistical chest beating adolescent heirarchy clinging social maladjusts floating in the shallow end of the gene pool these days.
Take a look at some of these posters, you wrote a decent piece, presented it well, and what happened? You had a bunch of ADD kids bash it for the fact you stepped on their toes. Thats right theyll bash you simply for the fact you didnt say what they wanted to hear. Thats right, they get angry if you dont give them what they want instead of making them work for it.
MMORPGs were great because you could not just relate to your fellow player, but you could empathize with them. You coexisted in a harsh world together, and the only way anyone was getting anywhere is if you stuck together and worked it out. Not so these days, for the most part, you can solo through anything, and most players dont give a rats patoot about their fellow gamers because they do not depend on them.
You can keep your Chuck Norris jokes, your d00d speak, your gratuitous hate speech and your selfish solo style games, those arent mmorpgs anymore anyway.
Frankly Im ashamed of the new school players and dont even like being clumped in with them anyway.
peace out, make sure you insult me with all the fervor you are famous for in your posts that follow after this new schoolers.
While this series may be an opinion piece, it is completely unfair and does not display the whole picture. Like many others, I look back to my first MMO as an incredible experience where I spent all my time when I could. I happily grinded out the levels, exploring the world, doing all the things that Adam praised. However, I also went back to that MMO recently to check it out after playing many of the new MMOs, and it sucked.
The old MMOs were immersive because we allowed them to be. We were young and naive to the genre, so everything was magical. Story? What story? There were barely even quests at the start. You just went in and killed things. Point to it all? There was none if you really wanted to break it down. It all comes down to gaining little digitial objects to increase the power of you character. Nothing in videogames really has a point, that is irrelevant to the reasons we play.
What I will say is that the old MMOs had far superior grouping mechanics, focused more on social interaction, and provided more content per level than the current MMOs do. Previously, I could sit there for an hour waiting for a group while shooting the breeze with some guildies, then group for hours. Every day would consist of endless repitition, time sinks and just straight 'leveling up'. There was no point to it all, but to get to the next level.
The difference I see is that MMOs used to be about the journey whereas now they are only about the destination, and that is, for me, a cancelled sub. Every game I jump into I just think about how long can I squeeze that rag till it runs dry for me. I can't bring myself to solo my way to the end game. If I wanted to play alone, I would get a single player RPG. I play MMOs for the fun of doing something with others. MMOs are meant to be social. The fault of new-age MMOs is the streamlined, linear ride to the end.
The problem is not that new MMOs are worse than old MMOs, the problem is that they didn't evolve the way the the original customers wanted them to. Instead, they simply moved towards the $ signs, leaving us to figure it out for ourselves. Hopefully someone will come along and bring back the good from the old MMOs and combine it with the good from the new and make the true next gen MMO that will keep me playing for years!