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Game Design vs Evolution of Gaming Conventions
Speedhaak
Member UncommonPosts: 296
Hello folks. So, I bought FF XIV last Friday after work and enjoyed my weekend with it, mostly. I've been reading on and off the various comments throughout the iternet regarding the games apparant short comings and fans negative and postive feedback alike. I guess I find myself in a sort of middle ground, but I do feel like I have to talk about the general design philosphy behind FF XIV.
I see lots of people waving the hardcore (read: more advanced game design?) flag about, and initially I found myself not so bothered with this and in general agreement. **Before I go any further I'll just say for the record that I am actually enjoying FF XIV, and will mostly likely sub it. ** However, after several articles later and some in-game frustrations on my own behalf I find that as the customer I really need to express a more concerned interest in the actual release quality of FF XIV.
I honestly don't think its good enough in this day and age to simple say that the game is designed for a more advanced audience, albeit one with more time and patience perhaps? Some fundemental basics are missing from FF XIV, features that have not only become common place in the MMO genre but standard. And standard is something we shouldn't forget, regardless of demographics and cultural differences.
Comments
I understand where you are coming from having played a lot of mmos over the years. But I know me personally am a bit tired of the standards that are expected of games in general. A break from the usual formula is something that i needed very much. And when i mean the formula i mean everything including the interface hotkeys and just how you normally navigate through things which is exactly the same in 9 out of 10 mmos that release. FFXIV controls completely different and feels completely different then every mmo i've played in the past few years. Its a breath of fresh air to finally play something that just controls differently. Its annoying to some and I can understand that but it feels nice in my point of view to finally play a game that is its own in more ways than most.
Hi OP,
I am not sure I agree with your concept of "hardcore" or "more advanced game design" in FFXIV, that is, from what I read online the community appears somewhat...common place. Not a day has gone by on this site that questions on "how to" have been asked. From how do I get the subscription to work upto and including where do I find so-in-so after I get xxx quest? For a game that is not suppose to "hold your hand" such questions on public fourms leaves me to question the concept of "hardcore". Unless the social idea is to communicate more with people on sites in order to figure out what to do in game. I find it hard to concur that the "more advanced audience" would spend time asking questions on game site and public fourms due to the lack of a (!) over the heads of NPC's. Then again, the identification of advanced audience is certainly a grey term.
Regarding the design, and this is my opinion, it is not the fundemental basics missing from FF XIV rather the addition of gaming actions. Why add menu upon menu or impliment macro's in order to complete a simple function? If the case is to make the game more...complicated then why not fall back to DOS where you type in /take 10 steps forward? I beleive that the concept behind the design was not to make it for the "more advanced audience" but, to make the game compatable with PS3 audience. Nevertheless, if the design fits you than by all means enjoy the game to its fullest.
I guess what I was getting at is that in this day and age I don't really think developers can be as naive as to say 'we're building the game the way we want to, like it or lump it' - which is how I feel Square have largely approached FF XIV. You simply cannot underestimate the financial and popular influence fans and players have on both a franchise and it's ability to sell well. I hate to be the one flogging dead horses but Chris Metzen (of Blizzard) once said something along the lines of:
[quote]At some point we realised that we were no longer in control of WoW, and that the fans had swindled WoW off us and were largely now in control of it's lore and content direction.[/quote]
That's not an exact quote. but I guess what it means is that (especially for MMOs) in this day and age if you don't cater for the fans you'll find yourself quickly on the way-side. And more importantly, the fans more often than not know your IP better than you do, so their input is vital on many an occasion. I feel as though Square have neglected the above and just built the game they way they wanted, with little regard for the people who will inhabit their World, or at least try.
Having said all that, as the above poster says they were building the game with the PS3 in mind, and as a by-product, its controller. So I guess there are some issues that don't warrant argument as much as others, with regards to game design, and general Ui and game behaviour issues. But things I think they definitely could have made a better mould of are items like the inclusion of an Auction House. A Player Bank. More intuitive Crafting (stored recipes), easier access to skills and inventory items, a better Mob targeting system (hot keys?) better quest location indication (quest giver location)...
It just seems that in 2010, while admirable that Square have tried to bring FF Online back into the foray, they somehow forgot that genre standard had already been set in stone by other companies. And while there may be a niche market for the likes of FF XIV I don't think it'll ever reach the masses with the current mindset of it's developers.
I agree to an extent. I still think the game is boring but yes, standards should be met. They are met in every other industry and if they aren't, the product or company that pushed the non standard design usually fall by the wayside.
Take cars for example. Certain things are standard such as airbags and cd players. Due to such high competition in the automobile market, car designers MUST keep these standards or risk losing profit or even credibility.
The same should apply to games and MMORPGs. We as customers need to hold these companies to these common standards. Things like tooltips that make sense and describe what the heck an item or "food" item does. Things like movement and controls should be standardized as well as economic standards such as Auction Houses or something similar and EASY to access game registration/account management.
Every one of these categories is an area FFXIV utterly fails to deliver on. Whether they add them later does not matter, these are things that should be at the fundamental building stages of the game and it's account systems. In other words developed 5 years or more ago when they started this project.
There really is no excuse, even for a "foreign" company as we live in a global economy.
He nails it on the head, Its somthing diffrent. I myself started playing WoW as my 1st ever MMO, and everything ive bought / played since then as had the same kind of structure to it, and nearly all of them now have a quest helper these days. Since quiting WoW and Having my Aion account Hacked have been jumping from MMO to MMO. A change was defo needed
Very well put analogies, and exactly what I was getting at. Bottom line is, we as consumers have a right to expect certain degrees of standardisation from our games. We're not saying every game has to be the same, or in this case; a WoW clone, but what we would like to see is a general rule-set that expresses and maintains the familiarity of game-dependant items such as Auction houses and many of the items the above poster stated across all platforms and indeed, MMOs in general. Your Car analogy puts it perfectly to be honest, there are simply some things that cannot be omitted from a product, regardless of it's origin, practical use, or functionality. We need standards in our MMOs, and we need them soonish.
Maybe this topic should be moved to General gaming. It's a great topic and I would love to hear everyone's view on it.
It's funny though, maybe this subject is only interesting to those of us who look at the business/production side of the industry.
I'm also in the "looking for something different" group. I personally am sick of the "standard" that the gaming companies are trying to hold to, sure it works and in many ways better than what SE has implimented (not going to argue that) but its the differences that will actually keep me playing this game.
I also personally have huge issues with the "customer owns the game" mentality, when I buy a game I want the game I bought, I buy into the vision and if I don't like it I'll not buy into it. I know that there are somethings I just don't like and i'm not going to go around beating that into people, its just not for me /shrug.
ex
I go to a see an action movie sit down and the first 5 min are an incredible fight scene but the person beside me decides that the movie needs some romance and now the movie swings into a romance with a hint of action but the person behind me brought their 8 year old and now we have talking animals on the screen.
This movie would while having something for everyone absolutely piss everyone off at the same time.
Gaming while being a media that can be change literally on a whim, if I were to log in tomorrow and find the "standard gui" in place I would cancel my sub instantly because that would be proof enough that the company has lost its focus and its vision.
Using that analogy then, FFXIV a the moment plays like a malfunctioning Toyota.
You sir, are wrong. If I say FF14 is for a hardcore audience then that excuses all of the, what are considered by the vast majority as, flaws.
You don't need a functional interface, it's hardcore.
And yet, at least from my experience, you drive a car/truck everyday that has a standardized dashboard that may be different in certain aesthetics but I guarantee it has a speedometer and fuel gauge if not other "standards". I expect my GUI and other mechanics in MMORPGs to follow the same "standard". What you are referring to with your movie analogy is the content "type" not the standards of movies. Standards of movies would be crisp, clear picture and sound and decent acting.
Or like a Gremlin...
playing FFXIV is like saying..who drives those things?! Sadly, somewhere there are Gremlin Fanbois just like the ones vouching for FFXIV.
Again, it isn't like SE had to re-design the wheel to do anything differently with their UI. In the US we drive on the right side of the road, and our steering wheel is on the left hand side. (everywhere else right hand) SE didn't need to put the steering wheel in the trunk and backwards which is what I am getting from the OP and I completely agree.
The UI is just the vehicle to playing the game, and not the game itself. Do people really believe that FFIV is any different then any other bread and butter MMO because its masked by a half assed UI?
Edit - Damn you Elocke, you beat me to the car analogy.
My movie analogy is just a comment on the philosophy of the gaming community being in control of the direction of a games future and not so much to the standardization of gaming.
As to the standards thing I personally don't want to see it happen and I find it refreshing that company would stray off the path and try something different (for better or worse). There are a ton of things I would like to see changed in game but I don't want the game to become just a washed out version of what it is now either.
What do people consider to be a standard for an MMO?
I only ask because it might be interesting to see what these standards would amount to when put all in one place for everyone to see together as a list.
It just seems that in 2010, while admirable that Square have tried to bring FF Online back into the foray, they somehow forgot that genre standard had already been set in stone by other companies.
I think you mean the standard set in stone by one company, the model that everyone's been following for the past 5 years.
It's pretty obvious they deviated from that standard intentionally. FFXIV's model is experimental, just like FFXI's model was. If you've noticed over the years, one of the core principles of the FF series is to try something new with each one. It remains to be seen whether it's successful or not.
Also, it's not uncommon for FF games to let you figure stuff out on your own. Nobody would know how to get a golden chocobo in 7 if they didn't read the internet. Even in FF 1 there were things that you found out through trial and error and discovery. That too is sort of a hallmark of the FF series.
It's like in FFXI how nothing in the game told you at level 10 to go party in the Dunes and level off of lizards. There was no quest that sent you there. We learned that pretty easily through word of mouth because the JPs had already figured it out, but I'm sure that took awhile (more than 2 weeks anyway). Once Zilgart was released, there was no explanation detailing where to get Kazahm keys. Maat never told you exactly where to go to get the items need to fight him, nor did anything in the game tell you that you needed to fight him to advance past 60. Nothing in the game told players where to get artifact armor pieces. I would've been completely stumped on my first artifact armor quest if a Japanese player hadn't led me to the exact location of the Notorious Monster I needed to fight. I found that really cool though. Instead of the game telling me what to do next, an experienced player was able to guide me (one from the other side of the world no less). That kind of social interaction and teaching/learning is a big part of the appeal of these two final fantasy online games, to those that like it. Clearly it doesn't appeal to everybody.
I wouldn't describe this way of making a game as "hardcore" and I don't think many people really do describe it that way, but it's certainly different and there's a learning curve and a puzzle-type aspect to all the FFs.
This time around is a bit different because NA players are getting to play during the initial discovery stage whereas with FFXI we had translated guides from the Japanese.
All of this is very true.
That are not standards set in stone but other companies, that are you preferences in mmorpgs. Other people have other preferences. And by the way, they have player banks, they are called retainers. There are recipes in the game, they show in your crafting window after you put the materials you are going to use. About the targeting mobs, if you have read the manual you will know that you have at least two other (perhaps three, not sure about the third) keys to target mobs apart from TAB?About the AH, although its easier to buy thing with one implemented, if you want the crafter jobs to be viable by themselves, you need to be free of an ah. Go look at other games. Its economically viable to be a crafter? In most of them the price of the material to craft one item if higher than the price of the crafting item. So to raise crafting, wich is a side job of your character, you spent a big quantity, if not all, of the money you earned playing buyng that materials, crafting the most efective pieve of equip you could create to raise you job, and them dump them in the npc vendor because there is no market for them. In FFXIV the no ah and the more time-consuming crafting make crafter characters viable econmically. That not mean that the current system is pefect, but the renaming of markets wards would make them aceptable
The questgivers marks, well, LOL
Yes, well - without wanting to aggravate some forum dwellers by uttering said companies name, you're correct, I was referring to Blizzard. The thing is it's not just that company that has conformed to certain 'ways' of doing things, most other western developers have as well. Now, I don't want to get into an East Vs. West argument, but suffice is to say, these genre standards aren't really up for debate with the majority of western gamers, which is why, I think Square will loose a lot of western players after their first 30 days. It's just food for though, I'm not trying to irritate anyone here or force an opinion on someone, I just think that have some standard game mechanics would be good, of course leaving freedom for ingenuity in other areas afterwards.
Nothing wrong with a smidgen of similarity in games to help you get started, but then, that's just my opinion.
You're confusing my point, I'm not saying anything is less enjoyable or feasible, I'm saying that there are better ways of doing said things.
I couldn't agree with your view on things more. And it seems that the meaning of 'standard' is flying above some peoples heads, unfortunately. I think it's good to be objective about these things, but for some gamers it's all about being loyal to a franchise, which is cool, but you have to look at things from a customers point of view as well guys. Having standards in the MMO genre doesn't mean developers are restricted in what types of game they make, it just means that they'll have universal core mechanics that breed familiarity and enable players to get stuck in right away - aside form this, developers are then free to do whatever they want.