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fizzle32
Member Posts: 171
As an Eve player of the last 4 months, at this time I cannot recommend the game to new players.
The concept is good, the artwork is good, there's alot to like about it, but it's a security nightmare.
There are so many ways to exploit/scam/metagame, that you basically lose any sense of being emmersed in the game, and the Eve community for the most part supports this environment.
Think about the behavior and conversation in Counterstrike, that's basically most of the players in Eve.
Any mention of tradeskilling, trading and roleplaying is met with scornful replies of "this is a pvp game, if you dont like it go play everquest." Sure, it's a PvP game, but it's supposed to be the characters pvping each other, not the players hacking each other's accounts. I use hacking only as an example here, I haven't heard about anybody getting hacked.
%95 of the PvP in Eve consists of camping warpgates and attacking miners.
Even veteran players cannot just "fly" into deep space. You have to make a scouting alt, make quickjump bookmarks, know who claims the space, have their "permission" to hunt or mine there. It's basically criminal cartels, but they're not ONLY in-game criminals, their CHARACTER isn't criminal, the people BEHIND the character think like criminals.
The same people who camp warpgates to collect "tolls" are also usually the ones that use exploits to grief newbies in Empire (supposedly "safe") space and use the escrow system (like Ebay) to scam people. Some of these grief players also sign up as "help staff", where they use their special powers to provide information for friends.
Basically everyone is meta-gaming. Nobody is using their character skills, they are using the person behind the keyboard to use exploits/bugs/other means to scam/grief/get ahead.
There ARE some very nice ppl that I've met in game, but the ratio is like 25/75 in favor of scammers.
To be perfectly fair, scamming is not limited to only Eve. It's basically the same in almost every game. In Asheron's Call ppl stole stuff off the ground that you would try to drop mule. In EQ you would group with ppl who would ninjaloot the uberloot and log. So this is not JUST an Eve problem, except for the fact that the Eve player culture actively SUPPORTS this mindset, the game code makes it easy, and the admins support it.
Many an enraged rookie comes into the help room after being scammed/robbed/etc cursing and screaming, only to be informed by the help staff that scamming is not against the rules, but cursing is, so could you please stop cursing.
I mean no offense, but that's some screwed up sense of priorities.
If you DO join Eve, understand that it is hacker/exploiter/griefer heaven. You WILL get robbed exploited and destroyed. And if you complain about it, you will get gagged by the admins.
The Eve community is basically Counterstrike:
"OMG I wtf pwned you NOOB you *@#$% SUCK!"
If you enjoy it then join up.
I personally, I get enough BS in my real life, I don't need ppl using the game mechanics to rob me.
The sad thing is, I haven't seen any good fleet battles yet. The only PvP I've seen is camping gates and killing miners.
Later.
Fiz
Comments
I agree there is no law in town in Eve.
But its the player base that dictates that.
And being scammed is entirely your fault 100%. If you got scammed then LOL your a noob. The mechanics are so that if you want to buy something or trade something you can do so without possibly being ripped off.
If you engage in risky deals that happen outside the game mechanics (Like the trade window, escrow, and the market), then it is your own fault if you get ripped.
Giving someone money up front for a job or wiring someone money will almost always guarantee you will get ripped off. Not always, sometimes it is not always viable to rip people off. Especially if they are in a big corp. Hell knows no fury if anyone ever tries to rip me off in Eve. I will wage war, assemble my friends, and hunt that person down every single day of my Eve life. I will blow up their ships when they undock. I will sabotage their mining operations, I will use alt characters and deception to infiltrate their organization if they have one. And I will destroy them in every conceivable way.
Thats what makes Eve so fun.
But it is a lop sided game. If you arent friends with so and so and you want to go int his aprt of space, chances are you wont have a chance. So yeah I think more works needs to be done on balancing out the power in the game. Give some smaller organizations some super weapon, or have the developers sabotage some of the bigger corporations.
Game needs to be shook up constantly. Else boredom sets in. Everyone is doing their daily groove. And then there is nothing more to achieve.
Id like to see factional wars and some event team(GM) corps start funding wars against some of the alliances. Change the territorial control a bit.
I have my evemail box full of hate mails telling me that i will get podded over and over again and that there will be no place in eve that i could hide......bla bla bla bla......and no1 has ever done anything about it....
So let me get it straight.....u basicly want to replace the older alliances with some new ones that u would be part of?
What's keeping u from forming such a new alliance?
Why do u need some super weapons in order to fight the old alliances?
Seems to me that u are yet another frustated player like the one hwo started this post, wich can't fight in a group, wich doesn't have the necessary leadership skills to keep a group together and just want's the good old DEVs to give him the win button because he's to lazy to figure out a way to achive something.
CCP has done everything in their power to give u carebears the upper hand in the fight against evil pirates/alliances...that's why u have insta jumps and worp cores.
Yes, 95% of fights happen at warp gates because this is the only place CCP left for PVP-ing.
With Exodus expansion u can declair war to alliances and gank their empire operations....but u won't do that anyway cos u might loose ur precious ship.
Working in a group has helped many people to get rich and powerfull....but i wonder why can't u ppl do the same thing?
This is not a game where one race/class could take on 5 others and win....this is a team work game.
I have tryed all the professions in eve (have 3 accounts) and i have seen the good and the bad parts of every aspect in eve; like many others i've tryed to please my ego and fight alone thinking that it will be way much greater reward when fighting against the odds...
Months have passed and eventualy i realised that i had no1 to share my stories and that was the moment when i oppened my eyes widely and i gave up soloing....
If u don't have friends to share things with, to work with, to fight with and eventualy to die with then u better stick to a RPG where u'd be far more happyer.
I am in one of the best Alliances in Eve (Fountain).
Cant dispute we have probably the best NPC hunting and mining in Eve(well the point is we are well off).
I said it would be cool if you start seeing people undermining the alliances. There is just no way to possibly do that in Eve currently.
And I said it would be cool if you see small powerful corporations. Some pirate corporations can do this.. but they liveve the life of criminals just setting up traps for weaker enemies. They cant really invade anyone or take control of territory for long periods of time.
It would be nice to see some uber corporations that have capabilities that noone else has. And the same for different people. Like certain people have certain breakthroughs in certain areas of technology that is a little more unique then the current technology system.
And I think the GM team can get involved in the politics and everday life a little more. Like epic stories and epic wars (*cough* Gallente versus Caldari, Minmater versus Amarr */endcough*).
Just likley not going to see any of it. WHich is dissapointing, but I can live with it.
Why should pirates would ever want to control a territoy for a long period of time?
What would they do with that piece of space anyway?...mine?
Rolle playing a pirate character in EVE means quick attacks on the trade ways, kill fast and get out fast before the big blob is sent on ur way.
Rolle playing a pirate character means that the character (not to be confused with the real player behind the character) is a cold blooded killer that will not ezitate to shoot on any ocasion that seems to favor him.
There a few select corps that are truely pirating in the right sense of the word and even fewer that are rolle playing based on their starting race....RESPECT to all of them!
And being scammed is entirely your fault 100%. If you got scammed then LOL your a noob. The mechanics are so that if you want to buy something or trade something you can do so without possibly being ripped off.
========
Thats what I used to think too.
I used to think you couldn't get mugged in 1.0 too.
You can not only be robbed in 1.0, but you can also be scammed through the escrow system without ever intending to buy other people's goods.
I'm not at liberty to explain how all of this can happen, but I've seen it happen, and I've worked out most of the mechanics of how it's done, some of it is very very clever.
You can get scammed for a few hundred million isk without ever intending to buy anything from anybody, by simply muling items from one alt to another through the escrow system. The items all have your name on it, so you claim them all, except some of the items with your name on it are created by other players (not your alt) with your name on it, with big price tags and worthless items. Obviously you're not going to check your own escrow to yourself, so its very easy to fall into the trap of being ripped off in this fashion.
How they actually find out you are muling to yourself is another story, whether it's some kind of corrupt game staffer or some kind of hacking I'm not sure, but it has happened to a number of ppl, one of which posted on the board this morning, and it has happened to other ppl I've bumped into on the help chat.
So dont think it cant happen to you, because it most certainly can.
As far as PvP goes, it should occur in the BELTS. This is a game about resources, and forces fighting to control those resources. I have no problem with pirates attacking miners in belts, in fact I think this is the most realistic part of the game.
What I don't like is the fact that ppl can camp choke points, and just sit there for hours ganking ppl who are just travelling.
Scouting alts and quickjump bookmarks to me are meta-gaming (playing the code rather than the game), Warp core stabilizers are nice, but it reduces your ship to only travelling.
Personally I think they should enable turrets all over 0.0, and make the whole game like lowsec. Lowsec is fun because you can fight if you want to claim resources, but its mostly safe for travelling. Getting TO a fight should be relatively safe, being AT a fight shouldn't.
I simply think that PvP should be done between consenting players who are willing to fight over something (like an asteroid field) rather than ganking non-combatants who are just trying to get to wherever.
If you want to try a really cool experience, join an RP corporation like Pie or Masuaa Matari, they have corp wars over a storyline and I just think it's a really cool concept to have planned battles, rather than gateganks.
Myself, I'm most definitely not a carebear, I just think the game needs alot more story to justify the PvP, and a better class of PvP (consentual fleet battles and corp wars which I love, rather than schitty low class ganks against people who dont even have a reason to fight anybody.)
Piracy should definitely be do-able, not by camping warpgates, but by ambushing miners at asteroid fields, and also Corp pvp between pirate corps and vigilante corps like Celestial Apoc.
I think if we simply got rid of the gateganks by activating gate turrets, we would get plenty of PvP and much more enjoyable too, instead of gate ganks people would PvP over control of resources, or to advance an RP storyline in a plannet "meeting", which is 10 times more fun that just camping a gate for an hour.
And by RP I dont mean "how art thou", its very easy to RP in eve, because its post-modern, so ppl talk just like they do now. You can say "sup" and still be in-character, and having Minmatar and Amarr cussing at each other in local is not only natural and fun, but also in-character.
I'm not foolish enough to think my ideas will get implemented, or even if they are that they will work perfectly, I'm just expressing my thoughts as a form of discussion.
One thing is for certain, that Eve has soooo much potential, I can only imagine what they can do with this game in 2 or 3 years time, I'm guessing they will keep nerfing PvP until everything becomes just like lowsec, and ppl will have a better PvP experience.
Sure some ppl will complain, but players always complain.
For all my ranting, Eve is the only online RPG that interests me now, and I still give it a 7 out of 10 despite all the problems I have with it.
Fiz.
Now, my wife and I have been playing EVE since beta. Now, call me ignorant...but I don't remember a problem of people hacking other people's accounts.
Now if you get scammed through the ingame market, then that's just the way EVE is played.
It's hard core. And true to it's storyline of hard nosed rough survivors in deep space
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
Well one of the things I will disagree with is solo play, you can and it is very profitable..you don't have to send out alts to find safe passage, I do it all the time in with my main.
Though I will say lvl 4 agents are little bit harder to solo, so you do need a little help there..
As for rp and pvp...well...RP is there if you want to find it, and pvp is there if you want it or not, but I would say mostly you can escape. The only time when I've lost ships is when I've been getting cups of tea and coffee or forgot I was playing eve and come back finding I'm on a pod...*mutters about gate campers and stupid afk players like himself*
fizzle from your post i dont sympathize with you.
you got scammed by your own stupidity..
no hacking involved. any player can see private escrows. they just cant buy them. so if you bought one of their escrows, that was setup for only you to buy, then haha you got owned.
woe is me on a gaming forum is not going to get anywhere with people who have half a brain.
What a silly tantrum post by a person who doesn't realise that he could've easily prevented falling into a scam.
What's even sillier is blaming EVE for it. So far I haven't seen nor heard of a mmorpg where scamming wouldn't a) be possible and b) happen all the time. That's just how some people are - trying get cash and equipment fast.
I wouldn't dream of trusting anyone I didn't personally know irl in an online game. To some extent, perhaps, but not with anything I couldn't lose anyways.
I have no idea what your talking about escrow scamming ? just check the escrow you can see what you buying.
Hacking accounts ?? been here where looong time (EVE) NOT seen any account hacking
Helping staff DONT get some uber stuff in any way ( Im one )
EVE is more and less run by the players not by npc´s
.
Free 14Days EVE-Online "Trials & Guides" EVE-O Skills Sheet
Get a clue about this game before ranting about how it sucks.
For ur information low sec space 0.4-0.1 is THE MOST UNSECURE space u will ever be into.
From what this person mentions, it seems to me like they just started playing the game, perhaps hasn't joined a corporation or has joined one that isn't really active, and decided to go to 0.0 or low security space (0.4 and below) and decided to partake of the minerals/enemy mobs there, and then promptly got blown up and killed. Also, he/she probably bought something off of escrow without checking the item first and ended up purchasing a shuttle or some other item worth pennies for a high amount of cash.
First of all, this game is based on no risk, no reward. This isn't a typical MMORPG where you 'level up', and you go to a new zone with stronger monsters, more drops, and cooler items. If you waltz into low security space, you're fair game for anyone to come by and kill, especially if you go to 0.0 space by yourself. I think this person went way in over his/her head and went to low-sec space thinking they could get rich quick, but then ended up getting killed and is bitter about it. I for one have not been gate ganked, nor have heard about anybody getting gate ganked, or have heard about anyone getting scammed. This is just my objective observation (I am by no means an EVE fanboy, I actually stopped playing for a different reason altogether), but most players are mature, considerate, and responsible, quite the difference from, say, World of Warcraft players. I can't even stay in the General chat for that game, it ends up almost always pissing me off ten ways into tomorrow.
This post was obviously created in an effort to troll or at least rile up some bashing from the other players. It was neither posted constructively nor objectively, replete with false accusations and made-up observations based more on personal vendetta than factual and objective observation.
EVE Online offers a 7-day free trial. By no means am I trying to convince you to play the game, merely try it out. This game is not for everyone and turns away (thankfully) those players that we don't want in the game. However, at least give it a try before resigning yourself to another game. You may find something that you truly like besides the other offerings on the market.
Unsecure for who?
Wannabe pirates?
Well yeah, sure, it's unsecure if you forgot you shot at someone and stray near the sentries, but if you're just getting from point A to point B, lowsec is definitely alot more secure than 0.0, especially the choke points.
And the escrow mule ripoff, you cant see escrows targeted to other players, yet some ppl have the tools to get around this, and can interpose their own "escrow" between the ones you send to yourself.
Actually scammed is the wrong word. Scam means you got tricked. But the escrow mule ripoff isn't really a scam, as it involves interposing escrow items into stuff that a player is muling between 2 characters.
Anyway its all semantics.
And if you think you can't get ripped off, either through the mule ripoff trick, or through a hangar ripoff, or someone ripping you off right in 1.0, then you are in for a rude shock.
I dont expect the company to make sure nobody ever gets ripped off, that's unrealistic.
But right now they actively ENCOURAGE griefing and scamming and ripping ppl off by any tools necessary.
And you know...if griefing is allowed...then why isn't cussing? LOL
That's just the silliest set of priorities.
Yeah you can use scams and rip people off, you can login as an alt and steal BP's from corp hangar, you can logoff to escape from a losing fight, you can rip off ppl muling stuff to themselves, you can kill 15 people and hide their bodyparts in your closet, but don't you dare say "doo doo" in a public channel.
LOL
1. Escrow mule ripoff? Interposing escrow items? What are you talking about, it's not anybody's fault if you accidentally click on the wrong item in the escrow and end up buying someone's scammed item just because you thought your item was supposed to be 2 in a row. Not the other guy's fault, just your own carelessness.
2. Hangar ripoff? What? Ripping you off in 1.0? How?
3. Ok, as for your definition of griefing, it's flying into high-sec space and ganking newbies, which doesn't happen. My definition of griefing is flying into low-sec space solo with no backup as a miner, and having someone fly into my asteroid belt and killing me. Is that griefing? Sure it is. Who's to blame? Me, for being stupid enough to go into there without protection. It's like going into the south side of Chicago by yourself and driving merrily along the street, you're going to get shot. Was it right for them to shoot you? Of course not, but it's not unexpected. You only have yourself to blame.
4. What? Log in with an alt to steal BPs? First of all, how did your alt get into the corp? Second of all, why in the world would they give you access to the hangars in the first place? If your CEO is a dumbass and gives full access privileges to everyone, then he's ASKING for it. But otherwise a smart CEO leader will know who to trust and who to grant access to. Besides, it's no different than in any other MMORPG, person joins guild, gets access to treasury, takes out every item. Same exact thing.
5. Your ship stays in-game for 2 minutes after you log off. So no, you can't just log off because when you log back on, you'll be dead.
You really need to 1. stop trolling, and 2. move on to another game or play EVE the correct way. Your argument would be the same if I played World of Warcraft on a PvP server, ran into a contested or opposing faction zone, then bitched my ass off because they all killed me while I was trying to gather some herbs.
Ramma you sound like a new player.
"I've never been gate camped" yeah right LOL
And right now would be the absolute worst time to try the 7 day trial, considering that alot of the missions are bugged.
Oh you've never heard of new players getting killed in high sec huh? LOL
You've never heard of the mule ripoff trick huh?
Ramma, wtf you been playin? How you play Eve and never get gate ganked? It's practically the first thing a pvp'er experiences. Ppl in corp wars gate gank each other in empire, go visit Yulai some time. LOL
And staying in .5 to 1.0 is not an option, because it's %10 of the map. Its like saying "Yeah play everquest but stay in Gfay" There IS no non-pvp game. Even in 1.0 buying and selling on the market is PvP, people undercut each other and buy each other out, some corner the market.
I'm not bitter, in fact I'm a very happy camper, but Eve deserves to be better and can easily be made better. I shiver at what this game will become in 2 or 3 years when they finally polish it up and balance it.
Right now it's a great concept and great artwork with half broken botch job for code, and more design flaws than a model T Ford.
In time that model T can become a Ferrari, but I dont think there's any denying what it is now.
Right now the Eve client is simply Scam OS 1.0
Ramma I just read another of your posts written 2 days ago, where you stated that
a) You have never PvPed
b) You "couldn't stand warping around %90 of the time instead of something fun"
c) After 2 months you quit
So why you sittin here telling me how the game is? You haven't even experienced the game, the pvp *IS* the fun. If anything, I should be sitting here urging YOU to sign up and come back and I'll teach you how to have some fun with the game.
By the way my corp is not only active, but they are part of a major alliance, and actively involved in PvP, I just want higher quality PvP rather than camping gates every freaking day.
Its sad, I've been in alliance space for a month and a half and NEVER been in a big fleet battle, just gate ganking, corp wars in empire, and all kinds of ppl trying to scam me, or steal stuff from my corp's hanger.
I'm getting more involved in RP so we'll see how that goes.
I couldn't stand warping around 90% of the time because I joined my corp at a bad time in the game in which we were relocating left and right and getting harassed by some former members of the corp. As a consequence, I was forced to relocate to three different areas in a span of 3 weeks, having to do multiple 20+ jumps just to cart all of my possessions over to the new area. I regret quitting because right after I quit, everything settled down.
I quit because I was too involved in school and finances were tight, and I mean tight as in I'd rather save $15 to buy lunch for a week than pay for EVE Online tight. But now I reactivated my account because I have some money and it's break time.
Don't know about the alliance battles but there's a lot of videos that people made. They happen often enough that there's quite a few videos. Maybe right now it's just at a standstill. Corp hangar stealing shouldn't be a problem if your CEO/staff members distributed the access rights correctly. As for gate ganking, I can't relate but I can understand how this is a problem. Some corps move the non-PvP members to another temporary corp until the war is over. And battles in empire is an iffy subject, some people like it and some people don't.As for RP, I'm interested in doing some RP too, I heard good things about PIE Corp.
Regarding your post, what was the purpose of it besides to rile people up because you KNOW people are going to respond negatively? Granted, I've done this myself (look at the Matrix Online forum for an example) but seriously, is it really needed? I'm also going to stop responding because this back-and-forth arguing and counter-arguing is really futile in the end (hence why I stopped posting in the MxO forums).
Regarding your post, what was the purpose of it besides to rile people up because you KNOW people are going to respond negatively?
====
I dunno, whats the purpose of discussing anything? Part entertainment, part information.
Who cares if they get riled up? Good, let em get mad.
I got my first taste of the "gaming community" in Everquest with ppl ninjalooting valuable drops and gating out, I used to think it was the exception but it's basically the norm.
The gaming community isn't mean to me because I criticized their game, they'd be mean and angry no matter what I said. I could say "Eve is the perfect game and has no flaws" and there would be someone, somewhere angry with me.
So my advice to you is to tell the truth and fear no one, because the "gaming community" is a band of hostile screeching nerds any way you slice it.
I understand, you're not a PvPer and don't enjoy interpersonal hostility, and you dont understand why I would open my big mouth and become a target.
Maybe I enjoy the hostility. Which isn't to say I'm a troll, I'm just a nice guy who calls it like he sees is, and if people bash me for it, I will bash back and learn to enjoy it.
My sub to Eve runs out in about 15 days, to be honest I don't think I will stick around that long, because I'm getting really tired of the travelling. Even travelling just 4 or 5 jumps now just irritates me.
Gonna run out and buy WoW today and see how it is.
Best wishes to you all,
fiz
biggest scam i been had by was someone who was going to sell me a office in 0.0, i offered 1/2 the isl before and 1/2 after .. .. but alas they took half and ran. off. some of my corp m8s wanted to kill the guy, but whats the point .. most likely an alt character - would solve nothing. lesson learned ...
buyer beware
i choose to take the control and not suggest that some other person is to blame for my woes, i choose to pay a super high price for something because i did not read the fine print, or do the research etc.., i choose to take the jump into the next system without knowing what is on the other side of the gate., i choose to use more than im prepared to lose, i choose to undock without insurance, i choose to wear implants, i choose to go to 0.4-0.0 systems knowing the dangers. I do not expect anyone to allow me to do any of the above without fear of negative consequencesand when those negative consequences occur i do not get bent out of shape about other peoples actions in the process .. i chose
as for the l33t kiddies yelling stuff about noobs and pwning and such .. i believe there are much fewer than you think .. in a community of 50k (rough guess) your gona get them, and alot of them but not the majority, even 2% of the community in the few chans are gona create alot of commotion ... nature of the beast .. and unless they are extreemly abusive there is little that can be done. i ignore them .. or use private convos. dont let them have the last laugh, its what makes them tick.
People are mean to you NOT because you cricize. There certainly is lot in EVE some people like and some don't. People also aren't mean to you because you think you're the center of the universe.
People are mean to you, because you manage to do something utterly stupid and then blame the game design and the other players.
Have fun in WoW. It's a good game for those who need a simple game.
Zipeh: Buyer Beware, the term you're looking for is Caveat Emptor.
Oudoksuja: Now that was an uncalled for statement, I play both EVE Online and World of Warcraft and I find both games very enjoyable in their own right.
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People are mean to you, because you manage to do something utterly stupid and then blame the game design and the other players.
========
Really? And which utterly stupid thing did I do?
I haven't been ripped off (yet) but I know a number of people who have. You don't necessarily have to do anything stupid to be ripped off. Just making friends with someone and having them in your corp can easily result in finding your BP hangar empty.
Just muling stuff from one toon to the other can leave you broke, and there's not one thing you can do about it.
Come back when you read the post. Ppl are mean to me because they know it all, kind of like you. :-P
As far as WoW, so far it seems like a picnic, but the one thing I like about it is that it respects my time. I don't have to spend 3 hours making/copying/arranging bookmarks, nor do I have to spend 45 minutes hauling all my stuff to the new HQ.
And the constant waiting for jumps arrgh. I refuse to believe that making a zone-free game is that hard. If my processor is idling at %50, why can't the Eve client use the other %50 to preload all the crap in the surrounding sectors?
Asheron's Call did it, and the other %99 of that game was a disaster, but hey at least it was a zone-free piece of crap.
I haven't played EQ2 but from the reviews, they haven't learned ANYTHING from EQ1.
Still need a group to play. Still cant solo. Still have "zoning...please wait..."
And don't get me started on Caveat Emptor.
Caveat Emptor works in RL, because if the butcher rips me off, I can go back to his store and beat his face. If the car dealer sells me a lemon, I can take his a$$ to court and make him spend time and money defending himself.
Caveat Emptor in Eve? Zero risk. No consequences.
Where's the risk/reward scenario for being a scammer in Eve? Its all reward and no risk.
That's what I mean by Eve being a scammer's paradise, there's no risk to it.
In fact the only people who actually HAVE risk are the normal ordinary players.
Aight slim? Now don't think too hard.
U have much to learn my friend....it's the exact opposite of what u are thinking: low secure space is dangerous specialy for travellers like urself who think that 2 or 3 sentry guns could keep u safe from the evil pirates....
News flash: 3 sentry guns can be tanked forever my dear friend.....on the other hand we need just several seconds (about 15 or so if u fly a real good tanked bs) to kill u...