Although many would disagree, I feel there is honor in PVP, even in gaming and some people chose to play honorably and other's don't. I don't complain about being griefed when I'm on a PVP server, however I don't practice it myself.
I absolutely agree with the bit in yellow.
I can see why it's so hard to understand "griefing". People try to cite specific examples and list this or that loose generalization about what constitutes griefing. Others try to closely relate the term to its base - grief - and that word's definition. Frankly, in gaming terms, I don't think the word "grief" fits too well at all. I mean, grief is defined as:
–noun
1. keen mental suffering or distress over affliction or loss; sharp sorrow; painful regret.
2. a cause or occasion of keen distress or sorrow.
—Idioms
3. come to grief, to suffer disappointment, misfortune, or other trouble; fail: Their marriage came to grief after only two years.
While portions of the definitions can be related, if you took this literally a certain encounter or mob could be "griefing" you, and I'm pretty sure folks don't run around using the term in that way.
To me - and I think most folks would agree - griefing in MMOs occurs when one player completely stops another from playing the game as intended. Some of the earlier examples illustrate this, but the most popular would be spawn camping someone to the point that they can literally no longer play the game, and are left with little choice but to merely log out.
Wikipedia's definition of the term is fairly loose and poorly phrased: "A griefer is a player who does things in a game to deliberately cause annoyance ("grief" in the sense of "giving someone grief") for the griefer's own enjoyment (or "lulz")." I mean, causing annoyance can be anything, ranging from trolling a chat channel to simply not doing what they're supposed to in a team. Those things are simple annoyances and can be easily avoided by ignoring a player, or kicking them from your team. In fact, their entire definition is based primarily on activities in shooters, and that's fair enough given that it's where the term really originated. Of course, we're not discussing FPS multiplayer games here.
The fact is, most things that would be called griefing in other genres can be easily avoided in most MMOs, and are therefore only minor annoyances or nuisances. I don't really qualify such things as causing grief. Someone seriously has to cross a line in an MMO to keep a person completely inable to do anything about it, and such cases where it's completely unavoidable are quite rare, and it's only in such cases that a person would really experience grief.
Honestly, the term is extremely overused and consequently misunderstood, IMHO.
Edit: Colddog nailed it.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde
Griefing occurs when one person deliberately attempts to cause another grief, and succeeds (at least to some degree). The means by which it occurs is irrelevant, as is whether said means are supported by the game, frowned upon by the community or explicitly against the rules of the game. All that matters is the intent and the successful mental anguish by the victim that follows.
Therefore to answer the original question - yes, griefing could, and does, occur on PvP servers. But that's not to say all griefing is created equal. I've seen players intentionally grief an opponent that has griefed them the day before, an "eye for an eye" if you will, which I would not rank as terrible as someone that befriends a foe, only to log into their account and deliberately delete all their items for no better reason than their own amusement.
In my opinion the worst type of griefing is not a sadistic individual that looks for ways to inflict distress on another human being. I expect that type of mentality from time to time I suppose. I find it far more repugnant that some people are simply too ignorant to understand that someone on the other side of the internet is in grief because of their actions. They willfully ignore the possibility and close their mind to the definition I provided above simply to continue on their own selfish course. Their response, if confronted on the issue, is usually to divert the blame to the victim, a tactic favored by many felons, or to hide behind convenient rationalizations to avoid the need to empathize with their victim. Typical responses would be "but the game lets me do it" or "all's fair on a pvp server," demonstrating a level of childishness that disappoints me the most. But I suppose in today's internet, its actually more of the norm.
The morning sun has vanquished the horrible night.
Some will call it griefing and others will call it fair game but frankly I've always found spawn camping to be incredibly lame regardless the server type.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Griefing occurs when one person deliberately attempts to cause another grief, and succeeds (at least to some degree). The means by which it occurs is irrelevant, as is whether said means are supported by the game, frowned upon by the community or explicitly against the rules of the game. All that matters is the intent and the successful mental anguish by the victim that follows.
Therefore to answer the original question - yes, griefing could, and does, occur on PvP servers. But that's not to say all griefing is created equal. I've seen players intentionally grief an opponent that has griefed them the day before, an "eye for an eye" if you will, which I would not rank as terrible as someone that befriends a foe, only to log into their account and deliberately delete all their items for no better reason than their own amusement.
In my opinion the worst type of griefing is not a sadistic individual that looks for ways to inflict distress on another human being. I expect that type of mentality from time to time I suppose. I find it far more repugnant that some people are simply too ignorant to understand that someone on the other side of the internet is in grief because of their actions. They willfully ignore the possibility and close their mind to the definition I provided above simply to continue on their own selfish course. Their response, if confronted on the issue, is usually to divert the blame to the victim, a tactic favored by many felons, or to hide behind convenient rationalizations to avoid the need to empathize with their victim. Typical responses would be "but the game lets me do it" or "all's fair on a pvp server," demonstrating a level of childishness that disappoints me the most. But I suppose in today's internet, its actually more of the norm.
I think most rational thinking people can agree on when griefing occurs. I don't necessarily agree the definition should extend to how the victim feels about it, as weird as that may sound. I've experienced many gamers influenced by adrenaline during and after a PvP confrontation being emotionally distressed for various reasons. Particularly if they didn't expect it. Hell i have been called an ahole and a jerk only out to make people quit many times in the past just catching people by surprise
I think if you start pissing in a jar to spawn camp somebody. That somebody won.
Heh, you would think that, wouldn't you? Strangely, it doesn't work that way.
Edit: Imagine the pure elation you get when you kill his character again at hour 6.
Heh, I love guys like this. I let myself get camped about 5 times, after the third time, I see how eager they are to stick about, so I get up, go to the toilet, come back and respawn, oh, still around, good. Put the kettle on, make myself a sammich, then respawn, pop again, good, he's interested. Once more before I go and do some washing, put on the television, have some fun oustide, walk the dog, come back an hour or three later, oh, whats this, this basement dweller is still waiting for me, how kind. Check my ingame tellspam, then logout laughing because I just cost him 3 hours of his life in front of a videogame twitching waiting for me to res. Not everyone is as passive as me, or as sociopathic enough to do this to some guy, but if he thinks he's griefing me, when in actual fact, im griefing him, I have my lulz and he thinks he haivng his.
Im quite happy to make you waste time in camping my corpse when im not at the computer, it means while you're busy guarding my afk body, other people have a chance to play and I get things done. We all win, except you, but you think you win, so its good for everyone!
Heh, I love guys like this. I let myself get camped about 5 times, after the third time, I see how eager they are to stick about, so I get up, go to the toilet, come back and respawn, oh, still around, good. Put the kettle on, make myself a sammich, then respawn, pop again, good, he's interested. Once more before I go and do some washing, put on the television, have some fun oustide, walk the dog, come back an hour or three later, oh, whats this, this basement dweller is still waiting for me, how kind. Check my ingame tellspam, then logout laughing because I just cost him 3 hours of his life in front of a videogame twitching waiting for me to res. Not everyone is as passive as me, or as sociopathic enough to do this to some guy, but if he thinks he's griefing me, when in actual fact, im griefing him, I have my lulz and he thinks he haivng his.
...
That's a pretty good outlook on it.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
It's not a matter of being better than them. It's griefing.
Pick an out of the way spot near a quest giver, wait for a target and trash them.
It's not a sport, it's not even close to fair, but it is a hobby. I've had it happen enough to me to see what's going on.
edt: kant spl
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
I was playing WoW one day on a pvp server as a low level in the wailing caverns instance. We completed the instance and we zoned out to be greeted by a much higher level guy who wanted to kill us. We all zoned back inside the instance and I decided that it might work out if I zoned out, stealthed quickly and reappeared later to have some distance between me and the high level so that he could chase me while the others could get out. Getting camped by high levels can actually be fun in some cases.
I don't take MMORPGs very seriously. Someone could camp my corpse all day and I wouldn't get mad at the player or the game..it was my choice to play on a pvp server. As I mentioned before I pretty much expect all kinds of rude behavior and people of all levels trying to kill me if I join a pvp server. Do some people expect some kind of bushido code of honor to take place on a pvp server? - "Finish killing your boar and rest up sir for I wish to duel you" "Turn around..I cannot kill a man with his back turned".
Griefing is not about PvP, being killed, nor killing.
Griefing exists in games without PvP.
A person could kill somebody repeatedly and it not be griefing depending on the why...the reasons. Griefing is about intent.
Griefing is to ...cause someone grief. Oftentimes it is killing someone repeatedly, stealing kills, or verbal abuse. When I think of a pvp server I think of a server that has an almost anything goes rule. I mean you are joining a server where people can kill you from out of the blue. After I get killed by someone I would almost expect them to dance on my corpse or talk about my mother....
Oh, so you are saying a PVP server is a server on which griefing can't exist. Then you ask: Can you actually grief on a PVP server? Nice job.
Now, come up with thirty words that mean the exact same thing and then tell us how none of them are alike.
Just a few opinions of my own based on my MMO experience in pvp servers.
- Being a lowbie and getting ganked by high level enemies of the opposing faction does not amount to griefing. if ure not prepared to be ganked by high level characters, then perhaps ure not ready for the pvp servers. this is a true reflection of real life incidents, yes not everyone goes around hunting lowbies, but when someone does it, he is in every way justified to do it since it adds dynamic to the game. I remember in both my WoW servers that i played in (both pvp) Dragonmaw and Thaurissan, guild raids comprising of characters from levels 10-80 go around contested area ganking lowbies, camping them and continue killing them, this often lead to reinforcement from the "griefed" faction. i guess this is what the game seeks to achieve, and i see nothing wrong with it. Its fun in my opinion.
- Killing opposing faction's NPC such as merchants, quest givers and escorted quest targets, in my opinion, is never griefing. reason is because, if these NPCs were never meant to be killable by the opposing faction, game makers wouldnt have made them targetable. there are guards around towns, cities, so i see no reason why its considered griefing if quest givers or merchants are killed. For WoW again, we usually see high level elite guards in low level quest areas, some even patrolling, like i say, its part of the game, and its fun to me. As for escorted NPCs, i think its only fair to say that ur job is to escort the NPC, and if ur a level 10 and suddenly a level 80 appeared to kill that NPC, i can only say u failed your escorting task. This is in no way griefing.
- Lastly, i believe the only form of griefing in pvp servers is the same as that in pve, RP servers. it is when someone prevents ure progress in the game by repeatedly causing problems for you. The extent of problem has to be determined by the GMs, because its a very subjective issue. Unless u can prove that the actions of the other party has amount to personal attack, its hard to prove griefing. There was this undead priest in my server that goes around everywhere hunting everyone all the time. i find that his playstyle is unique, and not childish, immature. that is definitely not a grief issue.
To be honest, im perfectly find if a level 80 of the opposing faction continuously hunt me down from level 1. because i feel that since im playing an MMORPG, it will be a more accurate reflection of the world and the players if these kind of incidents occur. I enjoy playing in a pvp server because i get ganked and i ganked people (of different levels), and i find it extremely satisfying when i beat someone 10 levels ahead of me.
Griefing is not about PvP, being killed, nor killing.
Griefing exists in games without PvP.
A person could kill somebody repeatedly and it not be griefing depending on the why...the reasons. Griefing is about intent.
Griefing is to ...cause someone grief. Oftentimes it is killing someone repeatedly, stealing kills, or verbal abuse. When I think of a pvp server I think of a server that has an almost anything goes rule. I mean you are joining a server where people can kill you from out of the blue. After I get killed by someone I would almost expect them to dance on my corpse or talk about my mother....
Oh, so you are saying a PVP server is a server on which griefing can't exist. Then you ask: Can you actually grief on a PVP server? Nice job.
Now, come up with thirty words that mean the exact same thing and then tell us how none of them are alike.
Sorry if that confused you friend but I just asserted my opinion and asked what others thought about the subject..thats all
I was playing WoW one day on a pvp server as a low level in the wailing caverns instance. We completed the instance and we zoned out to be greeted by a much higher level guy who wanted to kill us. We all zoned back inside the instance and I decided that it might work out if I zoned out, stealthed quickly and reappeared later to have some distance between me and the high level so that he could chase me while the others could get out. Getting camped by high levels can actually be fun in some cases.
I don't take MMORPGs very seriously. Someone could camp my corpse all day and I wouldn't get mad at the player or the game..it was my choice to play on a pvp server. As I mentioned before I pretty much expect all kinds of rude behavior and people of all levels trying to kill me if I join a pvp server. Do some people expect some kind of bushido code of honor to take place on a pvp server? - "Finish killing your boar and rest up sir for I wish to duel you" "Turn around..I cannot kill a man with his back turned".
Not at all, I dont expect any qaurter given, however, I will play it honourably, most of the time, there are times however that some things require a lesson learned. AFK in the middle of a zone, I am going to blow you up. If I do see a lowbie however, I will let them be, if someone waves, I will not engage, if they ask me to wait, ill expect a challenge. I have defended some lowbies on my faction from time to time, but thats akin to an PKK. In my mind, rolling on a PvP server you are consenting to PvP and the possibility that griefing will occur through PvP (Camped and general douchbaggery) however I would have it no other way, there is nothing like the rush of levelling a character with the constant threat of PvP, be it of equal level, or some ass bored on his max level toon, that rush is soon ended when the realization hits that you cannot escape, however wasting his time and being productive with mine makes up for any delay in levelling.
I much prefer world PvP over a BG anyday of the week, sadly games tend towards this ridiculous Battleground idea that WoW started because of the QQ over Tarren Mill and Soutshore. I think many would mislabel world PvP as griefing because of its random nature, but maybe thsoe should have rolled on a PvE realm, however, due to how little world PvP happens in WoW, PvP and PvE realms are really so similar its not funny, PvP is almost exclusive to BG's these days, maybe I played on crap PvP servers. /shrug
So i`m guessing u guys never played L2 or EvE if u realy think that u can grief in WoW...
L2 before they carebeared it up, I heard it was alot more, interesting. Dropping items on death from PvP, I think WoW players would shit themselves if Blizz ever looked at something like that. Oh, and trains, losing exp from death. Shame I never got to play it back then, and shunned MMO's, I think I would have enjoyed it, or sworn off MMO's for life.
I've been an asshat before. Not to cause distress. But because I was high level and they were low. I didn't feel I was getting the respect. So I lift my boot and "*SQUISH*!" Dead noob.
Just when you think you have all the answers, I change the questions.
Heh, I love guys like this. I let myself get camped about 5 times, after the third time, I see how eager they are to stick about, so I get up, go to the toilet, come back and respawn, oh, still around, good. Put the kettle on, make myself a sammich, then respawn, pop again, good, he's interested. Once more before I go and do some washing, put on the television, have some fun oustide, walk the dog, come back an hour or three later, oh, whats this, this basement dweller is still waiting for me, how kind. Check my ingame tellspam, then logout laughing because I just cost him 3 hours of his life in front of a videogame twitching waiting for me to res. Not everyone is as passive as me, or as sociopathic enough to do this to some guy, but if he thinks he's griefing me, when in actual fact, im griefing him, I have my lulz and he thinks he haivng his.
...
That's a pretty good outlook on it.
Nice. I've actually set up a short macro with my logitech to make me run back the same direction so that a guy would repeatedly kill me in one game when i was beign spawn camped, despite having nothing to steal on me and me being naked so he was getting almost no XP. He killed me for a half hour while I showered and ate. I got a bunch of messages from him asking why i wont fight him and why I never came armed. They got increasingly desperate. I had a nice sandwich. he never got an answer and left by the time I was ready to play again.
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
I've been an asshat before. Not to cause distress. But because I was high level and they were low. I didn't feel I was getting the respect. So I lift my boot and "*SQUISH*!" Dead noob.
Did you tea bag him too?
I don't think you can truly call yourself an asshat until you teabag someone 20 times while they wait to rez. Be sure to keep "/sit" on your keybinds at all times while squishing noobs.
Oh, I almost forgot, you also need to repeatedly press your "/lol" keybind over and over again. I have 4 keys bound to this keybind for quicker, more efficient chat window spam.
If you're talking about WoW, the only purpose of a PVP server is to be griefed or get griefed. PVP serves no other purpose, what so ever.
You've never played PVP have you.
Griefing is killing someone without an apparent need, just to cause distress.
It's not standard PVP, we call those players griefers, gankers, or less formal, asshats.
I have actually.
What do people do? Go out and kill lowbies or raid lowbie towns. They never go out and try to mess with the other 80s, because there is no point. Everywhere is dead at high levels, because it's a PVE game and they are raiding.
Griefing means harassing other players, there are a lot of aspects to that.
You can grief someone whitout PvPing: if I killsteal all your mobs for example, or if I ninja all your loot.
If you roll on a PvP server, it is expected that you do not find others killing you to be griefing as you yourself chose those rules.
However, you could intentionally bait someone into PvPing and thereby grief him, such as a method in WoW where a hunter would take control of mobs in newbie areas that the newbie in question was trying to attack, thereby flagging him for PvP.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
I've been a griefer myself a couple of years ago. You feel a rush from causing distress to someone else, it's a weird feeling, and I couldn't do it nowadays. But when I did it, I would use any available method, not only traditional PvP.
Griefing in PvP server only happen maybe 2% of your whole server life time.
In non-PvP server, I see griefing in dungeon and raid runs.
To be honest, to lose a roll on an item after a four hour long raid is the biggest griefer ever.
And game changes causes the most grief to many players. A game update that made your items obsolete after spending months to get the whole set just because you can't be online as much as others is the biggest of all griefer.
Comments
I can only imagine a player sitting in one spot being glued to the screen for 12 hours with a couple of filled jars at his feet lol.
I'm not assuming you were serious though.
I think it's easier to grief in PvE than PvP to be honest. Imagine ruining whole raids which is quite possible.
I absolutely agree with the bit in yellow.
I can see why it's so hard to understand "griefing". People try to cite specific examples and list this or that loose generalization about what constitutes griefing. Others try to closely relate the term to its base - grief - and that word's definition. Frankly, in gaming terms, I don't think the word "grief" fits too well at all. I mean, grief is defined as:
–noun
1. keen mental suffering or distress over affliction or loss; sharp sorrow; painful regret.
2. a cause or occasion of keen distress or sorrow.
—Idioms
3. come to grief, to suffer disappointment, misfortune, or other trouble; fail: Their marriage came to grief after only two years.
While portions of the definitions can be related, if you took this literally a certain encounter or mob could be "griefing" you, and I'm pretty sure folks don't run around using the term in that way.
To me - and I think most folks would agree - griefing in MMOs occurs when one player completely stops another from playing the game as intended. Some of the earlier examples illustrate this, but the most popular would be spawn camping someone to the point that they can literally no longer play the game, and are left with little choice but to merely log out.
Wikipedia's definition of the term is fairly loose and poorly phrased: "A griefer is a player who does things in a game to deliberately cause annoyance ("grief" in the sense of "giving someone grief") for the griefer's own enjoyment (or "lulz")." I mean, causing annoyance can be anything, ranging from trolling a chat channel to simply not doing what they're supposed to in a team. Those things are simple annoyances and can be easily avoided by ignoring a player, or kicking them from your team. In fact, their entire definition is based primarily on activities in shooters, and that's fair enough given that it's where the term really originated. Of course, we're not discussing FPS multiplayer games here.
The fact is, most things that would be called griefing in other genres can be easily avoided in most MMOs, and are therefore only minor annoyances or nuisances. I don't really qualify such things as causing grief. Someone seriously has to cross a line in an MMO to keep a person completely inable to do anything about it, and such cases where it's completely unavoidable are quite rare, and it's only in such cases that a person would really experience grief.
Honestly, the term is extremely overused and consequently misunderstood, IMHO.
Edit: Colddog nailed it.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde
Griefing occurs when one person deliberately attempts to cause another grief, and succeeds (at least to some degree). The means by which it occurs is irrelevant, as is whether said means are supported by the game, frowned upon by the community or explicitly against the rules of the game. All that matters is the intent and the successful mental anguish by the victim that follows.
Therefore to answer the original question - yes, griefing could, and does, occur on PvP servers. But that's not to say all griefing is created equal. I've seen players intentionally grief an opponent that has griefed them the day before, an "eye for an eye" if you will, which I would not rank as terrible as someone that befriends a foe, only to log into their account and deliberately delete all their items for no better reason than their own amusement.
In my opinion the worst type of griefing is not a sadistic individual that looks for ways to inflict distress on another human being. I expect that type of mentality from time to time I suppose. I find it far more repugnant that some people are simply too ignorant to understand that someone on the other side of the internet is in grief because of their actions. They willfully ignore the possibility and close their mind to the definition I provided above simply to continue on their own selfish course. Their response, if confronted on the issue, is usually to divert the blame to the victim, a tactic favored by many felons, or to hide behind convenient rationalizations to avoid the need to empathize with their victim. Typical responses would be "but the game lets me do it" or "all's fair on a pvp server," demonstrating a level of childishness that disappoints me the most. But I suppose in today's internet, its actually more of the norm.
The morning sun has vanquished the horrible night.
Some will call it griefing and others will call it fair game but frankly I've always found spawn camping to be incredibly lame regardless the server type.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
I think most rational thinking people can agree on when griefing occurs. I don't necessarily agree the definition should extend to how the victim feels about it, as weird as that may sound. I've experienced many gamers influenced by adrenaline during and after a PvP confrontation being emotionally distressed for various reasons. Particularly if they didn't expect it. Hell i have been called an ahole and a jerk only out to make people quit many times in the past just catching people by surprise
Heh, I love guys like this. I let myself get camped about 5 times, after the third time, I see how eager they are to stick about, so I get up, go to the toilet, come back and respawn, oh, still around, good. Put the kettle on, make myself a sammich, then respawn, pop again, good, he's interested. Once more before I go and do some washing, put on the television, have some fun oustide, walk the dog, come back an hour or three later, oh, whats this, this basement dweller is still waiting for me, how kind. Check my ingame tellspam, then logout laughing because I just cost him 3 hours of his life in front of a videogame twitching waiting for me to res. Not everyone is as passive as me, or as sociopathic enough to do this to some guy, but if he thinks he's griefing me, when in actual fact, im griefing him, I have my lulz and he thinks he haivng his.
Im quite happy to make you waste time in camping my corpse when im not at the computer, it means while you're busy guarding my afk body, other people have a chance to play and I get things done. We all win, except you, but you think you win, so its good for everyone!
...
That's a pretty good outlook on it.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
It's not a matter of being better than them. It's griefing.
Pick an out of the way spot near a quest giver, wait for a target and trash them.
It's not a sport, it's not even close to fair, but it is a hobby. I've had it happen enough to me to see what's going on.
edt: kant spl
I was playing WoW one day on a pvp server as a low level in the wailing caverns instance. We completed the instance and we zoned out to be greeted by a much higher level guy who wanted to kill us. We all zoned back inside the instance and I decided that it might work out if I zoned out, stealthed quickly and reappeared later to have some distance between me and the high level so that he could chase me while the others could get out. Getting camped by high levels can actually be fun in some cases.
I don't take MMORPGs very seriously. Someone could camp my corpse all day and I wouldn't get mad at the player or the game..it was my choice to play on a pvp server. As I mentioned before I pretty much expect all kinds of rude behavior and people of all levels trying to kill me if I join a pvp server. Do some people expect some kind of bushido code of honor to take place on a pvp server? - "Finish killing your boar and rest up sir for I wish to duel you" "Turn around..I cannot kill a man with his back turned".
Oh, so you are saying a PVP server is a server on which griefing can't exist. Then you ask: Can you actually grief on a PVP server? Nice job.
Now, come up with thirty words that mean the exact same thing and then tell us how none of them are alike.
Just a few opinions of my own based on my MMO experience in pvp servers.
- Being a lowbie and getting ganked by high level enemies of the opposing faction does not amount to griefing. if ure not prepared to be ganked by high level characters, then perhaps ure not ready for the pvp servers. this is a true reflection of real life incidents, yes not everyone goes around hunting lowbies, but when someone does it, he is in every way justified to do it since it adds dynamic to the game. I remember in both my WoW servers that i played in (both pvp) Dragonmaw and Thaurissan, guild raids comprising of characters from levels 10-80 go around contested area ganking lowbies, camping them and continue killing them, this often lead to reinforcement from the "griefed" faction. i guess this is what the game seeks to achieve, and i see nothing wrong with it. Its fun in my opinion.
- Killing opposing faction's NPC such as merchants, quest givers and escorted quest targets, in my opinion, is never griefing. reason is because, if these NPCs were never meant to be killable by the opposing faction, game makers wouldnt have made them targetable. there are guards around towns, cities, so i see no reason why its considered griefing if quest givers or merchants are killed. For WoW again, we usually see high level elite guards in low level quest areas, some even patrolling, like i say, its part of the game, and its fun to me. As for escorted NPCs, i think its only fair to say that ur job is to escort the NPC, and if ur a level 10 and suddenly a level 80 appeared to kill that NPC, i can only say u failed your escorting task. This is in no way griefing.
- Lastly, i believe the only form of griefing in pvp servers is the same as that in pve, RP servers. it is when someone prevents ure progress in the game by repeatedly causing problems for you. The extent of problem has to be determined by the GMs, because its a very subjective issue. Unless u can prove that the actions of the other party has amount to personal attack, its hard to prove griefing. There was this undead priest in my server that goes around everywhere hunting everyone all the time. i find that his playstyle is unique, and not childish, immature. that is definitely not a grief issue.
To be honest, im perfectly find if a level 80 of the opposing faction continuously hunt me down from level 1. because i feel that since im playing an MMORPG, it will be a more accurate reflection of the world and the players if these kind of incidents occur. I enjoy playing in a pvp server because i get ganked and i ganked people (of different levels), and i find it extremely satisfying when i beat someone 10 levels ahead of me.
just my 2 cents
Sorry if that confused you friend but I just asserted my opinion and asked what others thought about the subject..thats all
Not at all, I dont expect any qaurter given, however, I will play it honourably, most of the time, there are times however that some things require a lesson learned. AFK in the middle of a zone, I am going to blow you up. If I do see a lowbie however, I will let them be, if someone waves, I will not engage, if they ask me to wait, ill expect a challenge. I have defended some lowbies on my faction from time to time, but thats akin to an PKK. In my mind, rolling on a PvP server you are consenting to PvP and the possibility that griefing will occur through PvP (Camped and general douchbaggery) however I would have it no other way, there is nothing like the rush of levelling a character with the constant threat of PvP, be it of equal level, or some ass bored on his max level toon, that rush is soon ended when the realization hits that you cannot escape, however wasting his time and being productive with mine makes up for any delay in levelling.
I much prefer world PvP over a BG anyday of the week, sadly games tend towards this ridiculous Battleground idea that WoW started because of the QQ over Tarren Mill and Soutshore. I think many would mislabel world PvP as griefing because of its random nature, but maybe thsoe should have rolled on a PvE realm, however, due to how little world PvP happens in WoW, PvP and PvE realms are really so similar its not funny, PvP is almost exclusive to BG's these days, maybe I played on crap PvP servers. /shrug
IMO grief crosses the line of personal.
IOW its not competitive, its not role play.
"but you could be mean in roleplay"
then its not griefing you just have an asshole character
if you're main objective is to cause mental pain to a person IRL then its what we like to call "griefing"
Just when you think you have all the answers, I change the questions.
So i`m guessing u guys never played L2 or EvE if u realy think that u can grief in WoW...
L2 before they carebeared it up, I heard it was alot more, interesting. Dropping items on death from PvP, I think WoW players would shit themselves if Blizz ever looked at something like that. Oh, and trains, losing exp from death. Shame I never got to play it back then, and shunned MMO's, I think I would have enjoyed it, or sworn off MMO's for life.
I dont grief.
PvP is IMHO only good if the other guy stands a chance.
You've never played PVP have you.
Griefing is killing someone without an apparent need, just to cause distress.
It's not standard PVP, we call those players griefers, gankers, or less formal, asshats.
Collector's editions are scams.
I've been an asshat before. Not to cause distress. But because I was high level and they were low. I didn't feel I was getting the respect. So I lift my boot and "*SQUISH*!" Dead noob.
Just when you think you have all the answers, I change the questions.
Nice. I've actually set up a short macro with my logitech to make me run back the same direction so that a guy would repeatedly kill me in one game when i was beign spawn camped, despite having nothing to steal on me and me being naked so he was getting almost no XP. He killed me for a half hour while I showered and ate. I got a bunch of messages from him asking why i wont fight him and why I never came armed. They got increasingly desperate. I had a nice sandwich. he never got an answer and left by the time I was ready to play again.
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
Did you tea bag him too?
I don't think you can truly call yourself an asshat until you teabag someone 20 times while they wait to rez. Be sure to keep "/sit" on your keybinds at all times while squishing noobs.
Oh, I almost forgot, you also need to repeatedly press your "/lol" keybind over and over again. I have 4 keys bound to this keybind for quicker, more efficient chat window spam.
I have actually.
What do people do? Go out and kill lowbies or raid lowbie towns. They never go out and try to mess with the other 80s, because there is no point. Everywhere is dead at high levels, because it's a PVE game and they are raiding.
Tarren Mill ring a bell?
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Griefing means harassing other players, there are a lot of aspects to that.
You can grief someone whitout PvPing: if I killsteal all your mobs for example, or if I ninja all your loot.
If you roll on a PvP server, it is expected that you do not find others killing you to be griefing as you yourself chose those rules.
However, you could intentionally bait someone into PvPing and thereby grief him, such as a method in WoW where a hunter would take control of mobs in newbie areas that the newbie in question was trying to attack, thereby flagging him for PvP.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
If you can interact, you can grief.
I've been a griefer myself a couple of years ago. You feel a rush from causing distress to someone else, it's a weird feeling, and I couldn't do it nowadays. But when I did it, I would use any available method, not only traditional PvP.
Griefing in PvP server only happen maybe 2% of your whole server life time.
In non-PvP server, I see griefing in dungeon and raid runs.
To be honest, to lose a roll on an item after a four hour long raid is the biggest griefer ever.
And game changes causes the most grief to many players. A game update that made your items obsolete after spending months to get the whole set just because you can't be online as much as others is the biggest of all griefer.
Ready for GW2!!!