I'm not an economist or financial analyst, but it's common logic that it's really bad for you to be perceived as desperate in any situation where you are trying to "win people over".
...wether SE has the wallet to carry on with it's crippled milking cow, or not. There is a limit to everything - even SE capital. I supose the buffer size has decreased from the depression, and the early release suggest desperation. So how about some graphs and numbers clarifying that for us? How desperate are they really?
I think we will find out in a couple weeks when the free trials run out. Till then we have to use what is available which is the stock info and any numbers that may be floating around on the net. SE is known to get most of their revenue from developing games and also distributing games by other developers. "SE is dying" may seem a harsh statement but if they move to a distribution only type business or some other scheme then that is effectively what happened.
"I'm not cheap I'm incredibly subconsciously financially optimized" "The worst part of censorship is ------------------"
I'm not an economist or financial analyst, but it's common logic that it's really bad for you to be perceived as desperate in any situation where you are trying to "win people over".
...wether SE has the wallet to carry on with it's crippled milking cow, or not. There is a limit to everything - even SE capital. I supose the buffer size has decreased from the depression, and the early release suggest desperation. So how about some graphs and numbers clarifying that for us? How desperate are they really?
I think we will find out in a couple weeks when the free trials run out. Till then we have to use what is available which is the stock info and any numbers that may be floating around on the net. SE is known to get most of their revenue from developing games and also distributing games by other developers. "SE is dying" may seem a harsh statement but if they move to a distribution only type business or some other scheme then that is effectively what happened.
No need to wait 6 months man, let's go ahead and speed this process up for all of us to be free remembering this shit sandwich by the holidays.
"Looks like Square Enix characters are going to have hold that spiky hair with generic product, as the company lowered its earnings forecast today for the six months (first half of its fiscal year) ending September 30, 2010. The publisher reduced new sales expectations by 10.5 percent to ¥68 billion ($846 million), which is far below the ¥90.6 billion the company took in during the same period last year. Squeenix also lowered its net income expectations for the two quarters to ¥1.7 billion ($21 million), a reduction of just over 29 percent from the original forecast.
The company said that the declining figures were due to the "challenging operating environment" in which new games experienced "relatively slow growth." Squeenix's operating income remains high, however, thanks to "profitable carryover sales of major titles released in March of the previous fiscal year" -- i.e., Final Fantasy 13 et al. Square Enix will release its actual second fiscal quarter results in the near future.
yea, SE isn't dying at all /end sarcasm. Looks like FF14 was such a dynamic bomb of every calibre they went ahead and cut sales expectations by 100 million or so to prepare the stockholders for the fallout that is sure to arrive in the coming months. Lookin like a lock for worst MMO to ever launch to me. The other trash can just fight about 2nd place on the all time failure list.
the last 3 Final Fantasys 12,13 and 14 have been unworthy of the name.
Couldn't agree more, SE should just put the FF name out to pasture and start anew. The recent titles have been unworthy of the name FF beside them and I wonder, if 14 or 13 had come out without "FF" in the name, would people buy and support it so vehemently? Do people support the games or the name of FF more? SE won't lay FF to rest sadly, they will beat this dead horse into the ground. SE should be ashamed of themselves for releasing such horrible titles. FF14 belongs in the pantheon of all time bad games beside Superman 64 and other all time debacles in gaming history.
the last 3 Final Fantasys 12,13 and 14 have been unworthy of the name.
For you, final fantasy 12 was not bad for me maybe you don't like it but many liked it same for the rest just like people like games that are cutscene after cutscene after cutscene and other don't.
yea, SE isn't dying at all /end sarcasm. Looks like FF14 was such a dynamic bomb of every calibre they went ahead and cut sales expectations by 100 million or so to prepare the stockholders for the fallout that is sure to arrive in the coming months.
I don't know why this should have to be explained, but here it goes. It's a world of difference, having to adjust expectations and a company dying. Stating "SE is dying" is hyperbolic exaggeration and sensationalism, nothing more to it than that.
Originally posted by bloodaxes
Originally posted by TribeofOne
the last 3 Final Fantasys 12,13 and 14 have been unworthy of the name.
For you, final fantasy 12 was not bad for me maybe you don't like it but many liked it same for the rest just like people like games that are cutscene after cutscene after cutscene and other don't.
Same here. I found FF12 a hell of a lot better than FF8, FF9 and FF10-2 and on equal footing with a FF10.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I don't understand some of you, FF 12 was the first final fantasy were you the hero of the game didn't have a locked class but could be anything even a healer if you wanted which is something I enjoyed a lot in it.
@ Above poster while it was not bad FF 7/9 had a better story (And my fav being FF 9 for having the best story imo)
I don't understand some of you, FF 12 was the first final fantasy were you the hero of the game didn't have a locked class but could be anything even a healer if you wanted which is something I enjoyed a lot in it.
@ Above poster while it was not bad FF 7/9 had a better story (And my fav being FF 9 for having the best story imo)
It wasn't the first, but it was the first in a long time.
I don't understand some of you, FF 12 was the first final fantasy were you the hero of the game didn't have a locked class but could be anything even a healer if you wanted which is something I enjoyed a lot in it.
@ Above poster while it was not bad FF 7/9 had a better story (And my fav being FF 9 for having the best story imo)
It wasn't the first, but it was the first in a long time.
Yea but can you really say FF 1 had any sense when you created all the team you want from the start?
S.E might not be dying but the Final Fantasy franchise is starting to lose its marketing power. Personally since FF7 I have only really enjoyed 1 Final fantasy game and that was 11. I hate 14 because of its terrible release, I did not like 13 cause it was to easy and linear with zero exploration, 12, 10-2, 10, 9, 8 were all ehh.
It's their credibility as devlopers that is dying. You can only get so far with those lifeless eye-candy games they've done recently. They must go back to their roots, analyze what was good in their old games and start improving from its models, and not devolve and have to improve a game from square zero, as if it was made in 2002.
SE has their hands in alot more cookie jars than people think, so i doubt as a company their dying. i will say they possibly made a mistake releasing the game they way they did, but i think it was more of a case to get a jump on other mmo's.
good idea....but let's call it what it is, poor execution. did coming out earlier help get some revenue? of course, but the backlash and ragequits have more than outweighed the profit at this point. are they dying, not in the slightest, did they make a mistake maybe, well if i was blind i'd say no. but even as a player of the game, and a huge fan of SE games, i'll still say hell yes they made a mistake.
part of the mistake falls on them for assuming that the gaming market hasn't been unkind in the past to them so if they decide to half ass just this once they'd get let off the hook a bit. the other part lies with players and fans of the game, for the attitude that has been shuffled around here and on other fourms. instead of saying "hey we gett the process and it works like this we're used to it, just be patient." most of the responses have been "go back to wow" or some other dribble.
i'm fully aware of the games problems, nevertheless i'm enjoying my LS becaue they are cool people, i'm doing the leves and getting my levels up....not fast..because frankly there isn't much to do OUTSIDE of leves or crafting so why bash my head into the wall on a daily basis. i'm enjoying the game a my pace, just like i did with XI, just like i did with WoW when that was worth playing. it's a preference thing.
I think it's pretty well established that SE needs the cash from the sales of FF14. With a 1/3rd reduction in expected profits and a clear tumble in their stocks related to other lack luster releases (as quoted by their own CEO) the situation for them has become pretty tense.
The comments and numbers on MMORPG.com pretty much mirror what has been happening all over the world.
As of today FF14 has become the 140th (one hundred fourtieth) worst rated MMO on MMORPG.com.
Falling at a rate of 1-3 a day.
Considering most of the folks that visit this site are what we would refer to as "experts" in the genre that is a telling number.
There are 163 total games which have been rated that are in released form. (they released it and made money from it = it counts as released).
This means 86% of all games released and rated by players on this site are "better games" than FF14.
It falls well below such winners as ROSE online, Regnum online, Conquer online, Helbreath, and Kicks online.
It even went and passed the venerable Star Trek online... I honestly didn't think that would be allowed to happen.
If you were to count unreleased games and games that are in beta hypothetically you could say that there is the possibility of it moving to #194 in the list. This would place 88% of games reviewed on this site to be in a better placement than FF14.
Perhaps my original estimates of 70% of people that play this game were unhappy with it were to low?
"I'm not cheap I'm incredibly subconsciously financially optimized" "The worst part of censorship is ------------------"
So you know how many people where crying fire on this one and all the fanbois who said no no no. FF14 is great. Its not even funny. How many peoiple said you can'ty fix the poitn that the game is all aroudn and , you can see it in the videos and the content they can talk about, and that at face value it was weak and a bad mmo? the answer is A TON. Sure there was a TON of defense becuase , you know despite obvious issues, people wanted the game to be good. But the people defending other mmos AGIAN should take this as a lesson, don't unless you have facts to defend it. Aion, WAr, STO, DF, and on. (Now ill give you wars not super bad but there were issues and still are issues).
Now Lets look at the games comign out. Is this currently happening? YES, once agian the biggest game where this is occuring is TOR . Listen guys like it or not there is a ton of smoke with TOR, there are major issues deny them or not. But its not alone, Rift has soem gameplay/purpose issues. And GW2 has soem character dev. issues (story is good , but when my toon is a copy of every other toon of that class in abilities thats not so much fun, but it sounds like the races may help mitigate this).
Sure we need to wait and see , we will get more info, more beta feedback, more videos and as we do better vision of the games. But stop agruing that there is no smoke and you cannot see that there are issues currently, that have not been adressed.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
I am guessing by your response and supposal "proof" that you don't actually realize how stock markets work.
Yea. I get it. A sharp decline from a high peak, and marginal climb back to an average position is actually a good thing.
You don't seem to know much about economies either. Read some of the other posts already in this thread. You're not going to find a lot of companies during that same time period showing different trends in their volumes or prices of stock.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Our friend SBFORD has posted some interesting information relating to this topic.
In its latest financial report, Square Enix's earnings were down over 75% in the first half of 2010 as compared to the second half of 2009. Sales were reported down 30% in the first six months of 2010. The first half of 2010 generated $21 million as compared to $85 million in the the latter part of 2009. Sales were better than originally projected, however, due to strong sales of Just Cause 2 and Final Fantasy XIV.
I wonder if the Japanese gov. diet would give SE a bailout?
Final Fantasy XIV sold over 250,000 copies in North America alone. They likely recouped their development budget already.
You really have no idea how MMORPG budgets work, do you?
Rhetorical question. I find it amusing you think worldwide sales of 370K (which translates to approx. 11 million in net revenue) are anywhere close to covering the budget of a AAA MMO.
Even if all the rumors about outsourced Chinese programming and cutting corners are true, the fact that SE developed an in-house engine and tools for this game means the development budget was comparable to other AAA MMOs, which means it was almost certainly north of 75 million.
They just changed a few things about the XI engine and called it a new game.
I labelled it FAIL when they had no jumping announced, it was obvious then, still is now.
Updating graphics does not equate to a new engine. They probably spent max 30 million on the creation of that game. That is counting all the marketting and conferences they attended.
They just changed a few things about the XI engine and called it a new game.
I labelled it FAIL when they had no jumping announced, it was obvious then, still is now.
Updating graphics does not equate to a new engine. They probably spent max 30 million on the creation of that game. That is counting all the marketting and conferences they attended.
They built a new engine for FFXIII and FFXIV, called "The Crystal Engine". The developers even stated they regret doing so rather than just upgrading their original ( which FFX through FFXII run on ).
Also, there are many "engines" in a game (graphics engine, physics engine, audio engine, etc.) and they all have to play nice with each other for the game as a whole to work. You can't just shove the graphics engine from FFXIV into FFXI and say"tada!!", it won't work. And you can't just shove complex shaders, high resolution textures, and environmental lighting into a graphics engine that wasn't built to support them ( and in fact, was built when these things didn't even exist outside of some programmers conceptual documents ).
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.- -And on the 8th day, man created God.-
Comments
I think we will find out in a couple weeks when the free trials run out. Till then we have to use what is available which is the stock info and any numbers that may be floating around on the net. SE is known to get most of their revenue from developing games and also distributing games by other developers. "SE is dying" may seem a harsh statement but if they move to a distribution only type business or some other scheme then that is effectively what happened.
"I'm not cheap I'm incredibly subconsciously financially optimized"
"The worst part of censorship is ------------------"
No need to wait 6 months man, let's go ahead and speed this process up for all of us to be free remembering this shit sandwich by the holidays.
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/11/01/square-enix-lowers-six-month-financial-forecast-cuts-expected-s/
"Looks like Square Enix characters are going to have hold that spiky hair with generic product, as the company lowered its earnings forecast today for the six months (first half of its fiscal year) ending September 30, 2010. The publisher reduced new sales expectations by 10.5 percent to ¥68 billion ($846 million), which is far below the ¥90.6 billion the company took in during the same period last year. Squeenix also lowered its net income expectations for the two quarters to ¥1.7 billion ($21 million), a reduction of just over 29 percent from the original forecast.
The company said that the declining figures were due to the "challenging operating environment" in which new games experienced "relatively slow growth." Squeenix's operating income remains high, however, thanks to "profitable carryover sales of major titles released in March of the previous fiscal year" -- i.e., Final Fantasy 13 et al. Square Enix will release its actual second fiscal quarter results in the near future.
Source: Square Enix"
yea, SE isn't dying at all /end sarcasm. Looks like FF14 was such a dynamic bomb of every calibre they went ahead and cut sales expectations by 100 million or so to prepare the stockholders for the fallout that is sure to arrive in the coming months. Lookin like a lock for worst MMO to ever launch to me. The other trash can just fight about 2nd place on the all time failure list.
Couldn't agree more, SE should just put the FF name out to pasture and start anew. The recent titles have been unworthy of the name FF beside them and I wonder, if 14 or 13 had come out without "FF" in the name, would people buy and support it so vehemently? Do people support the games or the name of FF more? SE won't lay FF to rest sadly, they will beat this dead horse into the ground. SE should be ashamed of themselves for releasing such horrible titles. FF14 belongs in the pantheon of all time bad games beside Superman 64 and other all time debacles in gaming history.
Edit: written in the wrong topic.
For you, final fantasy 12 was not bad for me maybe you don't like it but many liked it same for the rest just like people like games that are cutscene after cutscene after cutscene and other don't.
I don't know why this should have to be explained, but here it goes. It's a world of difference, having to adjust expectations and a company dying. Stating "SE is dying" is hyperbolic exaggeration and sensationalism, nothing more to it than that.
Same here. I found FF12 a hell of a lot better than FF8, FF9 and FF10-2 and on equal footing with a FF10.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I don't understand some of you, FF 12 was the first final fantasy were you the hero of the game didn't have a locked class but could be anything even a healer if you wanted which is something I enjoyed a lot in it.
@ Above poster while it was not bad FF 7/9 had a better story (And my fav being FF 9 for having the best story imo)
It wasn't the first, but it was the first in a long time.
.. But in a good way.
Yea but can you really say FF 1 had any sense when you created all the team you want from the start?
Go check out
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_V
I am going to start replaying it when I get a chance.
.. But in a good way.
S.E might not be dying but the Final Fantasy franchise is starting to lose its marketing power. Personally since FF7 I have only really enjoyed 1 Final fantasy game and that was 11. I hate 14 because of its terrible release, I did not like 13 cause it was to easy and linear with zero exploration, 12, 10-2, 10, 9, 8 were all ehh.
It's their credibility as devlopers that is dying. You can only get so far with those lifeless eye-candy games they've done recently. They must go back to their roots, analyze what was good in their old games and start improving from its models, and not devolve and have to improve a game from square zero, as if it was made in 2002.
The conversation from:
As expected the original thread has been reopened so continue that topic in it's separate thread.
Thanks!
Please continue the natural discussion from this topic if feel inclined.
"I'm not cheap I'm incredibly subconsciously financially optimized"
"The worst part of censorship is ------------------"
SE has their hands in alot more cookie jars than people think, so i doubt as a company their dying. i will say they possibly made a mistake releasing the game they way they did, but i think it was more of a case to get a jump on other mmo's.
good idea....but let's call it what it is, poor execution. did coming out earlier help get some revenue? of course, but the backlash and ragequits have more than outweighed the profit at this point. are they dying, not in the slightest, did they make a mistake maybe, well if i was blind i'd say no. but even as a player of the game, and a huge fan of SE games, i'll still say hell yes they made a mistake.
part of the mistake falls on them for assuming that the gaming market hasn't been unkind in the past to them so if they decide to half ass just this once they'd get let off the hook a bit. the other part lies with players and fans of the game, for the attitude that has been shuffled around here and on other fourms. instead of saying "hey we gett the process and it works like this we're used to it, just be patient." most of the responses have been "go back to wow" or some other dribble.
i'm fully aware of the games problems, nevertheless i'm enjoying my LS becaue they are cool people, i'm doing the leves and getting my levels up....not fast..because frankly there isn't much to do OUTSIDE of leves or crafting so why bash my head into the wall on a daily basis. i'm enjoying the game a my pace, just like i did with XI, just like i did with WoW when that was worth playing. it's a preference thing.
Played:FFXI, WoW, LOTR,EQ. Playing:FFXIV.
Looking Forward To:DCU, SWTOR.
I think it's pretty well established that SE needs the cash from the sales of FF14. With a 1/3rd reduction in expected profits and a clear tumble in their stocks related to other lack luster releases (as quoted by their own CEO) the situation for them has become pretty tense.
The comments and numbers on MMORPG.com pretty much mirror what has been happening all over the world.
As of today FF14 has become the 140th (one hundred fourtieth) worst rated MMO on MMORPG.com.
Falling at a rate of 1-3 a day.
Considering most of the folks that visit this site are what we would refer to as "experts" in the genre that is a telling number.
There are 163 total games which have been rated that are in released form. (they released it and made money from it = it counts as released).
This means 86% of all games released and rated by players on this site are "better games" than FF14.
It falls well below such winners as ROSE online, Regnum online, Conquer online, Helbreath, and Kicks online.
It even went and passed the venerable Star Trek online... I honestly didn't think that would be allowed to happen.
If you were to count unreleased games and games that are in beta hypothetically you could say that there is the possibility of it moving to #194 in the list. This would place 88% of games reviewed on this site to be in a better placement than FF14.
Perhaps my original estimates of 70% of people that play this game were unhappy with it were to low?
"I'm not cheap I'm incredibly subconsciously financially optimized"
"The worst part of censorship is ------------------"
So you know how many people where crying fire on this one and all the fanbois who said no no no. FF14 is great. Its not even funny. How many peoiple said you can'ty fix the poitn that the game is all aroudn and , you can see it in the videos and the content they can talk about, and that at face value it was weak and a bad mmo? the answer is A TON. Sure there was a TON of defense becuase , you know despite obvious issues, people wanted the game to be good. But the people defending other mmos AGIAN should take this as a lesson, don't unless you have facts to defend it. Aion, WAr, STO, DF, and on. (Now ill give you wars not super bad but there were issues and still are issues).
Now Lets look at the games comign out. Is this currently happening? YES, once agian the biggest game where this is occuring is TOR . Listen guys like it or not there is a ton of smoke with TOR, there are major issues deny them or not. But its not alone, Rift has soem gameplay/purpose issues. And GW2 has soem character dev. issues (story is good , but when my toon is a copy of every other toon of that class in abilities thats not so much fun, but it sounds like the races may help mitigate this).
Sure we need to wait and see , we will get more info, more beta feedback, more videos and as we do better vision of the games. But stop agruing that there is no smoke and you cannot see that there are issues currently, that have not been adressed.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Lol,i remember myself playing Rose Online,what an awesome game,to bad it got hacked and gms couldn't do anything,now is back again.
And Regnum was made by a small company in Argentina,financed by donations,but it's a great game too.
But yeah,both games are better than FFXIV.
The only game that is worst than FFXIV is http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/category/530
Is that even a game? LoL I thought it was another sly joke being played on us all by the MMORPG crew!
"I'm not cheap I'm incredibly subconsciously financially optimized"
"The worst part of censorship is ------------------"
how can a company be dying after doing selling 5+ million copies of FF13 ? :P
Yea. I get it. A sharp decline from a high peak, and marginal climb back to an average position is actually a good thing.
You don't seem to know much about economies either. Read some of the other posts already in this thread. You're not going to find a lot of companies during that same time period showing different trends in their volumes or prices of stock.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Our friend SBFORD has posted some interesting information relating to this topic.
In its latest financial report, Square Enix's earnings were down over 75% in the first half of 2010 as compared to the second half of 2009. Sales were reported down 30% in the first six months of 2010. The first half of 2010 generated $21 million as compared to $85 million in the the latter part of 2009. Sales were better than originally projected, however, due to strong sales of Just Cause 2 and Final Fantasy XIV.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/296780/Final-Fantasy-XIV-Square-Enix-Takes-Massive-Financial-Hit.html
"I'm not cheap I'm incredibly subconsciously financially optimized"
"The worst part of censorship is ------------------"
You really have no idea how MMORPG budgets work, do you?
Rhetorical question. I find it amusing you think worldwide sales of 370K (which translates to approx. 11 million in net revenue) are anywhere close to covering the budget of a AAA MMO.
Even if all the rumors about outsourced Chinese programming and cutting corners are true, the fact that SE developed an in-house engine and tools for this game means the development budget was comparable to other AAA MMOs, which means it was almost certainly north of 75 million.
They just changed a few things about the XI engine and called it a new game.
I labelled it FAIL when they had no jumping announced, it was obvious then, still is now.
Updating graphics does not equate to a new engine. They probably spent max 30 million on the creation of that game. That is counting all the marketting and conferences they attended.
They built a new engine for FFXIII and FFXIV, called "The Crystal Engine". The developers even stated they regret doing so rather than just upgrading their original ( which FFX through FFXII run on ).
Also, there are many "engines" in a game (graphics engine, physics engine, audio engine, etc.) and they all have to play nice with each other for the game as a whole to work. You can't just shove the graphics engine from FFXIV into FFXI and say"tada!!", it won't work. And you can't just shove complex shaders, high resolution textures, and environmental lighting into a graphics engine that wasn't built to support them ( and in fact, was built when these things didn't even exist outside of some programmers conceptual documents ).
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
-And on the 8th day, man created God.-