"can you name a single stand-out feature that Star Wars: The Old Republic will have that is not related to the game’s storyline?"
Bit of a funny question. It's the same as asking
- can you name a single stand-out feature that GW2 will have outside of the Dynamic Events and Personal Story, or
- can you name a single stand-out feature that Rift will have outside their Rifts and class system? or
- for TERA, outside of their combat system?
For each of those games, those are core features that give them their uniqueness. Bioware did it with a quest revamp via storytelling to capture the engagement and immersion that quests/missions progression has in singleplayer games and add that to an MMORPG, the other games have other distinct features.
But to answer the question, I'd say:
- 16+ Planets, the actual MMO world size: so far, it looks like SW:TOR will be far far larger than the other upcoming MMORPG's, in fact possibly even vastly enormous in total size of explorable area.
- enormous amount of content: BW is the only one of the companies of upcoming MMORPG's that is throwing around numbers regarding duration of gameplay of certain gameplay aspects, and those numbers are enormous. Looks like there's enough to do for a long time, whether you want to spend your time doing Class storylines or other activities.
- an altoholic's dream: due to the fully unique Class Quests, the large Planets inviting exploration and the large amount of other content, leveling an alt in SW:TOR will be the freshest, most enjoyable experience compared to other MMORPG's.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
"can you name a single stand-out feature that Star Wars: The Old Republic will have that is not related to the game’s storyline?"
Bit of a funny question. It's the same as asking
- can you name a single stand-out feature that GW2 will have outside of the Dynamic Events and Personal Story, or
- can you name a single stand-out feature that Rift will have outside their Rifts and class system? or
- for TERA, outside of their combat system?
For each of those games, those are core features that give them their uniqueness. Bioware did it with a quest revamp via storytelling to capture the engagement and immersion that quests/missions progression has in singleplayer games and add that to an MMORPG, the other games have other distinct features.
But to answer the question, I'd say:
- 16+ Planets, the actual MMO world size: so far, it looks like SW:TOR will be far far larger than the other upcoming MMORPG's, in fact possibly even vastly enormous in total size of explorable area.
- enormous amount of content: BW is the only one of the companies of upcoming MMORPG's that is throwing around numbers regarding duration of gameplay of certain gameplay aspects, and those numbers are enormous. Looks like there's enough to do for a long time, whether you want to spend your time doing Class storylines or other activities.
- an altoholic's dream: due to the fully unique Class Quests, the large Planets inviting exploration and the large amount of other content, leveling an alt in SW:TOR will be the freshest, most enjoyable experience compared to other MMORPG's.
Um, actually GW2 has been extremely detailed on their content and features, lol. So ya kind of tipped your hand that your post is biased. Nice shiny colors though.
"can you name a single stand-out feature that Star Wars: The Old Republic will have that is not related to the game’s storyline?"
Bit of a funny question. It's the same as asking
- can you name a single stand-out feature that GW2 will have outside of the Dynamic Events and Personal Story, or
- can you name a single stand-out feature that Rift will have outside their Rifts and class system? or
- for TERA, outside of their combat system?
For each of those games, those are core features that give them their uniqueness. Bioware did it with a quest revamp via storytelling to capture the engagement and immersion that quests/missions progression has in singleplayer games and add that to an MMORPG, the other games have other distinct features.
But to answer the question, I'd say:
- 16+ Planets, the actual MMO world size: so far, it looks like SW:TOR will be far far larger than the other upcoming MMORPG's, in fact possibly even vastly enormous in total size of explorable area.
- enormous amount of content: BW is the only one of the companies of upcoming MMORPG's that is throwing around numbers regarding duration of gameplay of certain gameplay aspects, and those numbers are enormous. Looks like there's enough to do for a long time, whether you want to spend your time doing Class storylines or other activities.
- an altoholic's dream: due to the fully unique Class Quests, the large Planets inviting exploration and the large amount of other content, leveling an alt in SW:TOR will be the freshest, most enjoyable experience compared to other MMORPG's.
Um, actually GW2 has been extremely detailed on their content and features, lol. So ya kind of tipped your hand that your post is biased. Nice shiny colors though.
You may have noticed that I post fairly regularly in the GW2 forum here, that is, if you actually paid attention to these forums (sticky post is mine).
And you may have noticed that I also am quite enthusiastic about GW2 in my posts, you might even have noticed that I posted a number of times that I have GW2 on top of my wish list, above a SWTOR. So yes, I am biased and have some nice shiny colors. In contrast to some people, my viewpoint and tastes aren't black & white, nor are they exclusive.
In contrast to some I am an actual MMORPG gamer, meaning not just a fan of 1 (existing or upcoming) game dissing all others: so yes, I plan to play a number of interesting MMORPG's that'll be released next year.
GL with your own shiny colored glasses, btw
For the 3 MMO's that I mentioned (of which you conveniently only mentioned one), those are the features that stand out most. So the point and question are both valid. I could name some other features just like I did for SW:TOR, but that's not really the point. For those having trouble following: double standards being used is the point that it's about.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I think it is better to play it safe. If I were developing an expensive AAA MMO, I would probably handle the release of new information the same way. While Friday updates have not been very revealing, there is a lot of material out from various conferenses. There is tons of gameplay videos along with sites like Darth Hater that disects them.
Still fresh in my memory is the development of SWG. It was a game where developers weren't tight lipped, but promised moon and starts to go with it. There was a post back then, in the beta forum, where a tester had collected all the features that were promised to be implemented in the launch. This amounted to roughly 30%. Significant features were completely missing and some had not been implemented 2 years after the launch.
I plan on playing GW2, but while they have given descriptions of game mechanics, they have not actually been shown in great details. Some things can look great on a paper, but the system, once developed, might not be as good. This is true for many sandbox attempts where features simply do not translate to a fun gameplay (except for minority or masochists). I could raise many questions about GW2 as well, but like with SW:TOR, I follow both games with mild optimism. Neither of these games will "fail" due to a single mechanic, but if the gameplay is not engaging and fun it can happen. I am sure that both SW:TOR and GW2 will do relatively well, but those claiming that GW2 somehow has an upper hand with released information aren't seeing the whole picture imo.
Another thing that many fail to consider is that today we have so many games coming out a year, which has resulted that people are no longer so loyal to a single brand (some are yes, it can be about personality or social aspects etc). But having choice generally means that people can hop from a game to a game, so it will become increasingly difficult for a developer to hook gamers for a single game for years. I do not think they even should. Few months in one game and then back once new content is available will probably become a norm. We already have guilds/clans that span accross different games. Also, I see no reason why I should be exclusive for WOW, SW:TOR; GW2, Tera or Rift. If all have something different to offer, isn't that great?
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Saying it's "at best a 2012 release" is kind of silly since they've stated they'll be releasing in 2011. :
Still, I don't think my interest has waned, I just wish they'd put info out that doesn't concern NPC's or companion characters. Like the article says, they haven't really posted anything about the mechanics involved in the game, and while we can see that it controls a lot like any other current-gen MMO, we don't know about guild systems, crafting, PvP, etc. I'd like to see and hear a lot more over the next few months before their (supposed) 2011 launch.
However, considering it's BioWare, I'm not too sure we will hear anything much.
Nonsense, Bioware has not even suggested a release date yet and they are much like Blizzard, they don't release a game until it is ready, so extremely doubtful we will see any 2011 date, far more likely a mid to late 2012 date.
For any of you challenged people saying spring 2011, I have a bridge in Brooklin for sale.....
Target release is set for spring 2011 , its on the offical website and forums .
And stickied , so where is that bridge ? and how much does it cost ?
But why on earth are you so ready to believe this when so little information has been released on core gameplay. Most games this big would be deep into a closed beta right (See WOW back in 2004, or WAR back in 2007/8) now with thousands of testers involved if they were really going live in less than 6 months, yet this title hasn't even revealed some of its core gameplay elements.
Do you really think they need to keep everything this secrert? Or maybe, just maybe, they really don't have that much to show outside of the demo's they've given.
I'm all for optimism, but when it comes to MMORPG's and release dates, early releases are just not the way to bet.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Part of the problem is, we, as gamer's, demand too much, too soon.
You might disagree with that, but its the truth.
I remember way back when I first started playing MMO's, if you wanted to complete a quest, you had to read the quest text, then follow the (sometimes) vague instructions, and directions the quest text held to get the job done.
You had to actually explore the game world, and find quest hubs, or area's to grind in.
Now, people dont care about reading quest text, or exploring, they just want some form of quest helper to point the way to the quest objective, they dont want to explore and find things themselves, they want a website with spoilers, a map addon ( in some cases) or at least an interactive online map that shows where everything is.
Even before a game is actually live, people want to know all there is to know about it, so they can just blindly rush to *end game* content, and then complain there is nothing to do.
If you think about it, what is the point of even playing a game, if you want someone else to show you where to go, what to do, how to do it.
What happened to wanting to find it all out for yourself? Did surprises suddenly become the red headed stepchild that nobody wants?
For me, too much information is a bad thing, its one of the reason's I do not sign up for beta test's of games I am interested in anymore, as once you have been involved in the beta for a few month's, and done pretty much all there is to do while beta is taking place, the live game suffer's, and the experience is a bit of a let down.
So, do I care that there a lack of information about ToR, no, not at all.
I am still as interested in playing ToR as I was when it was first announced.
And I am looking forward to actually having to find things out about the game first hand, by actually playing it, instead of reading all about it on a website.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
Saying it's "at best a 2012 release" is kind of silly since they've stated they'll be releasing in 2011. :
Still, I don't think my interest has waned, I just wish they'd put info out that doesn't concern NPC's or companion characters. Like the article says, they haven't really posted anything about the mechanics involved in the game, and while we can see that it controls a lot like any other current-gen MMO, we don't know about guild systems, crafting, PvP, etc. I'd like to see and hear a lot more over the next few months before their (supposed) 2011 launch.
However, considering it's BioWare, I'm not too sure we will hear anything much.
Nonsense, Bioware has not even suggested a release date yet and they are much like Blizzard, they don't release a game until it is ready, so extremely doubtful we will see any 2011 date, far more likely a mid to late 2012 date.
For any of you challenged people saying spring 2011, I have a bridge in Brooklin for sale.....
Target release is set for spring 2011 , its on the offical website and forums .
And stickied , so where is that bridge ? and how much does it cost ?
But why on earth are you so ready to believe this when so little information has been released on core gameplay. Most games this big would be deep into a closed beta right (See WOW back in 2004, or WAR back in 2007/8) now with thousands of testers involved if they were really going live in less than 6 months, yet this title hasn't even revealed some of its core gameplay elements.
Do you really think they need to keep everything this secrert? Or maybe, just maybe, they really don't have that much to show outside of the demo's they've given.
I'm all for optimism, but when it comes to MMORPG's and release dates, early releases are just not the way to bet.
Didn't I see a video from PAX a little while ago that stated the game is done, they are just adding polish? As fas as updates go, they do a update every Friday. The videos and bios they have showed all tie into the story and are pretty well done and give you hints as to what will be in the game.
Has my enthusiasm for the game waned? Absolutely not. BW has no chance of making everyone happy. However, I am happy with what I have seen so far and I am just sitting back and enjoying the ride until launch day. I applaud BW for taking on the challenge of creating a game for the Star Wars universe which encompasses a huge array of opinions and emotions. I have been hopeful for a SW world since the trashing of SWG and am hoping that BW enjoys a huge success with this project.
Saying it's "at best a 2012 release" is kind of silly since they've stated they'll be releasing in 2011. :
Still, I don't think my interest has waned, I just wish they'd put info out that doesn't concern NPC's or companion characters. Like the article says, they haven't really posted anything about the mechanics involved in the game, and while we can see that it controls a lot like any other current-gen MMO, we don't know about guild systems, crafting, PvP, etc. I'd like to see and hear a lot more over the next few months before their (supposed) 2011 launch.
However, considering it's BioWare, I'm not too sure we will hear anything much.
Nonsense, Bioware has not even suggested a release date yet and they are much like Blizzard, they don't release a game until it is ready, so extremely doubtful we will see any 2011 date, far more likely a mid to late 2012 date.
For any of you challenged people saying spring 2011, I have a bridge in Brooklin for sale.....
Target release is set for spring 2011 , its on the offical website and forums .
And stickied , so where is that bridge ? and how much does it cost ?
But why on earth are you so ready to believe this when so little information has been released on core gameplay. Most games this big would be deep into a closed beta right (See WOW back in 2004, or WAR back in 2007/8) now with thousands of testers involved if they were really going live in less than 6 months, yet this title hasn't even revealed some of its core gameplay elements.
Do you really think they need to keep everything this secrert? Or maybe, just maybe, they really don't have that much to show outside of the demo's they've given.
I'm all for optimism, but when it comes to MMORPG's and release dates, early releases are just not the way to bet.
Cause most beta players stinks !!! sorry to say lets take patch 4.0 of wow for example , been in beta test for how long 3 months ? one day on live !!
We had more changes on the product then 3 months in beta , sorry to say it simply says having a beta is almost useless .
Early release of products , lets see how many product been dumped on us way way too early .
In the last past years i can give you enough names , lets take the mains for example Star Trek , Age of Conan , Aion half those games hit release too early , its just a crude beta game , with too many features not implemented and set in stone.
WoW classic release example , paladin mechanics changed from last day sof beta , into something totally new and crap .
But you know something is funny , i opt in for the beta after 4 years , and infact not a word or response from them .
Thats maybe good for a change , it seems they are taking the beta tester serious . and have only a very small group who reports bugs , no bug reports no beta , thats the way it should be , not want to work for free , GTFO .
Secrecy isn´t bad at all , but there is a point where even a average joe can say , look money talks BS walks .
EA is about money , not just talks , if bioware dare to confirm thats it set for spring 2011 , they beter deliver .
Yes maybe they learned a lesson , that people are willing to pay for a beta product , so why give free beta´s if most people want to pay for it , cash in the bank .
Two things have really quenched the fires I was originally feeling towards this game.
1) The vastness and worldliness I associate with MMO's (not necessarily 'sandbox' MMO's either) just doesn't seem to be represented in the info they have given us. Yeah, there's a buttload of planets, but the zones they've shown us seem very small and directed. Of course, I'll save my final judgement in this regard for when I can play it for myself, but I do think if the zones are in fact big, they REALLY need to be showing it soon.
2) The community for this game is insane. And not in a good way. It's not at all like I was hoping.
Originally when TOR was announced I was extremely excited. I was excited because I'm a SWG vet (Oh no he di'nt... Oh yes he did). I was excited not because I expect TOR to be a sandbox, not because I want 32 mix and match professions, not because I want a player driven economy, and not because I want awesome JTL space gameplay (well, that one is still a sore spot...).
As a SWG vet, I was excited about TOR because of the community. The community in pre-CU SWG was amazing. It's what SWG was all about for me. It was a 24/7 SW fanfest. It's the core of what the NGE destroyed. When they launched the TOR forums, I excitedly read the new forum member names and recognized many names I had not seen in years. Now, the few times I read the forums (official, and here @ mmorpg.com), those names are gone, and all I read is trolling and flaming, and crucifying anyone who doesn't utterly worship BioWare (and anyone who says "pre-CU").
I'm not totally blaming the community for it's own behavior. We're a passionate market us MMO gamers. Lack of info creates a vacuum in which we let our minds and opinions wander. Which can and does create friction.
In summary:
Game = Meh
Community = Fail
Fail + Meh = not quite as excited about this games as BioWare would want me to be.
Well, I don't have any fears about this, because I don't think the community here in this forum is really representative for any ingame community. For good or bad, ingame communities are basically influenced by the ingame mechanics of the game. They are closely related.
Pre-CU SWG community was so good, because the mechanics enforced cooperation. It is that simple. It was the same, to a degree in the old days of EQ2. Most overland mobs were heroic, so people HAD to cooperate. Same with SWG in pre-CU. People needed doctor buffs and Entertainers to get rid of combat fatigue and crafter communities and player cities to host the crafters and give a cantina for the entertainers close to the hunting spots asf. All was connected, all was inter-dependent. THAT is why I praise the system of SWG so much. The good community is the result of a game design, where teamwork and cooperations is a necessity. That is why I fight so hard against this ideology of the amtomized players where no one ever really needs anyone. People will become social because of obstacles they can't overcome alone. Take these obstacles away and they devolve into the egomaniacs most humans naturally are.
Release this necessity from a game, make all people soloists and entirely independent from one another, and most will return to asshole-mode. Humans function like that. Read Machiavelli. *shrug*
Sidenote 1: I find Ozmodan's considerations plausible. I too don't expect we really see SWTOR before late 2011 or 2012 rather. No MMO ever held it's first release announcement, and with the high emotional tide they'd be well advise to reconsider some details.
Sidenote 2: As someone pointed out, Bioware indeed seems little responsive to any critique or request. Like a king they say how things to do be done, then end of debate, and then mostly staying in shrounded silence. Not a very welcoming behavior. I say it again: a company like Stardock who REALLY communicates with it's community I am way more willing to overlook faults than with this distant behavior. And what exactly makes you think they will react better and less haughty after launch? It is what I loathed Blizzard for, already. They have "their vision" and to hell with everyone who wants different. I just don't like that attitude one bit.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
A game this big has a Beta test fase of at least 6 to 8 months.
The game is still in demo mode.
Compared to other games, that would mean it is still more than 1 year off.
Doesn't anyone remember that the first extensive Wow demo's appeared 2 years before launch?
The moment it hits serious beta testing, you'll have to add this 6-8 months "delivery" timing (probably more).
So not before May 2011 and since they will not launch in spring or summer, there simply is no release before automn 2011.
Unless ... EA decides otherwise and then we' ll have a nice premature child (aka WAR) experience again.
-
I too am convinced GW2 already passed the hype level of TOR. The SW game is in a dangerous negative glide for the moment.
It is as if SW:TOR is made by people who are simply "new" to MMO's.
It seems GW2 wants to address the bored MMO crowd, while EA/Bioware thinks there is still a WOW market besides WOW. And even if that would not be the case, they certainly project the wrong identity in their PR talk for their product (story).
Pre-CU SWG community was so good, because the mechanics enforced cooperation. It is that simple. It was the same, to a degree in the old days of EQ2. Most overland mobs were heroic, so people HAD to cooperate. Same with SWG in pre-CU. People needed doctor buffs and Entertainers to get rid of combat fatigue and crafter communities and player cities to host the crafters and give a cantina for the entertainers close to the hunting spots asf. All was connected, all was inter-dependent. THAT is why I praise the system of SWG so much. The good community is the result of a game design, where teamwork and cooperations is a necessity. That is why I fight so hard against this ideology of the amtomized players where no one ever really needs anyone. People will become social because of obstacles they can't overcome alone. Take these obstacles away and they devolve into the egomaniacs most humans naturally are.
A good point.
I think that that's what contributed majorly towards EQ's success in its tight knitted community feeling, dependencies and enforced grouping.
Although I don't think enforced grouping works anymore, a system of interdependencies like the doctor buffs and Entertainers and a good economy and crafter community can certainly help a lot when nourishing that community sense. I think if SWG would have had that polish that WoW had and lots more content and varied things to do for the quester/leveler, SWG would have fared a lot better, with no rigorous changes needed as an NGE.
But, that's in the past.
We'll see how things will go with SW:TOR.
Originally posted by Arnstrong
It is as if SW:TOR is made by people who are simply "new" to MMO's.
"New" doesn't mean that much in the MMO industry. We've seen some epic fails from seasoned MMORPG companies in their 2nd or 3rd MMORPG, and we've seen some good successes with first-timers.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Part of the problem is, we, as gamer's, demand too much, too soon.
You might disagree with that, but its the truth.
I remember way back when I first started playing MMO's, if you wanted to complete a quest, you had to read the quest text, then follow the (sometimes) vague instructions, and directions the quest text held to get the job done.
You had to actually explore the game world, and find quest hubs, or area's to grind in.
Now, people dont care about reading quest text, or exploring, they just want some form of quest helper to point the way to the quest objective, they dont want to explore and find things themselves, they want a website with spoilers, a map addon ( in some cases) or at least an interactive online map that shows where everything is.
Even before a game is actually live, people want to know all there is to know about it, so they can just blindly rush to *end game* content, and then complain there is nothing to do.
If you think about it, what is the point of even playing a game, if you want someone else to show you where to go, what to do, how to do it.
What happened to wanting to find it all out for yourself? Did surprises suddenly become the red headed stepchild that nobody wants?
For me, too much information is a bad thing, its one of the reason's I do not sign up for beta test's of games I am interested in anymore, as once you have been involved in the beta for a few month's, and done pretty much all there is to do while beta is taking place, the live game suffer's, and the experience is a bit of a let down.
So, do I care that there a lack of information about ToR, no, not at all.
I am still as interested in playing ToR as I was when it was first announced.
And I am looking forward to actually having to find things out about the game first hand, by actually playing it, instead of reading all about it on a website.
I like your post but its more simple then that. I believe that the AVERAGE MMO player is like the AVERAGE RPG (BOOK) player. The main motivation for MMO players has been, and continues to be, the NEXT LEVEL. After playing MMO's for so long, I have since given up on the race to the top, and am instead enjoying the journey. Guess I got tired with the GRIND of leveling.
Being that I am a huge Star Wars fan, I was all fired up about this MMO. However, it is taking too long to come out and I have lost my hype. Also, seeing the fact that space combat is nothing but a rails shooter, that was a big let down. I will probably let everyone else "test the waters" before diving into this ocean. I have learned many things by playing MMO's. Never play the beta because it spoils the fun of playing the game when it gets released. Also, always start an mmo one year after launch. That gives them time to work out the bugs and there will be less lag because many players will not like the game and leave. Also, playing after a year will usually get you a great deal on the client software.
It has waned to the point where I don't know if I want to play a game where the developing company refuses to interact with their potential customers.
I give it until the end of this year for them to start talking about the game. If the info still isn't out, I will find a game that will interact with the customers.
I hear a lot of that on many forums. I'm still looking forward to the game, but I'm trying others to kill time. It's hard to play other games though, knowing that if TOR is good, I won't be back. With little enough information on TOR, makes it hard to know whether I should even invest a lot of time in other games. Every once in a while I think, "screw TOR", I'll just keep playing this. At least I know what I like about it.
Yes, my enthusiasm has dropped. My expectations have dropped. I think it is because I have had too much time to think about how they can make an MMO with such a set story line. Not that stories aren't a fun part of some games. Maybe it will just be a Big single player game with some kind of possible social interaction or maybe ...... way lots of maybe's.
As a retired programmer and application designer, I can remember projects started with high hopes and exciting possibilities that in the end were flops or discontinued because they became too complex to actually build.
I mean it is gonna take quite some system to allow you to go anywhere and do anything and form groups to do exciting things and still follow an individual story line. I guess since my limited mind cannot see how it can be done I really don't expect it to be done. I am not saying I will not try it or that I am mad at Bioware for lack of communication or even that I am disappointed in all the QQing for more info on the forums .... maybe the MMO hype machine (like with Warhammer) is just the wrong way to market these games. I just feel a little uneasy about it all. However it is no biggie as it is just a game after all.
Originally posted by wahala99 As a retired programmer and application designer, I can remember projects started with high hopes and exciting possibilities that in the end were flops or discontinued because they became too complex to actually build.
If you follow quality based design and development principles these types of situations are rare. As an Application Designer, System Developer, etc... I have seen teams and projects fail. Usually RAD techniques are used in a larger more defined project. Scope Creep and failure to define the objective are probably the second largest failure.
An experienced TEAM and a great project manager(s), can easily reduce this. Yet Video games are a form of ART, and as such their is no Science behind the actual end game play/fun. There is a chance BIOWARE blows it, but if I had money... I would of invested in EA back in the late 2009's... The stock price was extremely low, and I am willing to bet on the success of BIOWARE.
Wahale99 I am not claiming your inept, but explaining that the reason for these failures are often due to lack of experience and lack of proper planning.
I would hope that I loose some of my excitement for the game. I always enjoy things more when I go into them with low expectations.
Let them take another 3 years if that will result in a solid game. Just ignore the complains, no matter WHAT they do, people will complain:
- If they release too soon, people will complain.
- If they take too long, people will complain.
- If they communicate a lot, they will be accused of promising a pie in the sky.
- If they don't communicate much, they will be accused of ignoring the community.
Maybe Bioware have realized that it's best to let whiners whine while they do their job - at the end of the day, their games are high quality so they sell anyway. They seem to be doing that with the Mass Effect and Dragon Age series and it's working out quite fine if you ask me.
The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over.
Well, even the most experienced programmers can err, losing track of what is going on. "Too sure of themselves they are, even the older, more experienced ones." to paraphrase Master Yoda.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
No, my interest in TOR has not decreased at all. The main reason is that I am a BW RPG fan first. No matter what happens with the MMO features in this game. I will have up to 1600 hours of BW RPG story to play through in an IP I grew up with. This will be enough to cover the price of the box plus a sub. If the MMO features are there as the dev's have said. Then I will have a game I can play for a long time.
These are games we are talking about, not a matter of life or death. The world will go on with or without a games release, success or failure. So I follow what I think I will like, give it a shot, then decide from there. If it sucks, I just move on. Is it such a big deal weather or not a game is what you want? You had nothing to do with the developement or investment in the company. It is just a video game. Buy a game or don't, your life will go on.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them? R.A.Salvatore
Havent decreased, I'll now about the game when i play it, I don't need them to rush me with all the info there is.
Just like I prefere to not now anything about a movie, other than what's on the cover before I watch it.
People are acting like girls, let them do their job, you won't be playing it earlier even if they tell us everything.
And if GW2 are missing just 2% of the stuff they've told us about, people will go nuts on them for "lying"
And for people who are already considering not playing the game, if they don't open their mouth soon, seriously shut it and grow up, Bioware aint your mom, you don't see Ferrari telling the world about all the features of their new car a year before it comes out.
GW2 is using it as a marketing strategy, one that could very well backfire.
Comments
"can you name a single stand-out feature that Star Wars: The Old Republic will have that is not related to the game’s storyline?"
Bit of a funny question. It's the same as asking
- can you name a single stand-out feature that GW2 will have outside of the Dynamic Events and Personal Story, or
- can you name a single stand-out feature that Rift will have outside their Rifts and class system? or
- for TERA, outside of their combat system?
For each of those games, those are core features that give them their uniqueness. Bioware did it with a quest revamp via storytelling to capture the engagement and immersion that quests/missions progression has in singleplayer games and add that to an MMORPG, the other games have other distinct features.
But to answer the question, I'd say:
- 16+ Planets, the actual MMO world size: so far, it looks like SW:TOR will be far far larger than the other upcoming MMORPG's, in fact possibly even vastly enormous in total size of explorable area.
- enormous amount of content: BW is the only one of the companies of upcoming MMORPG's that is throwing around numbers regarding duration of gameplay of certain gameplay aspects, and those numbers are enormous. Looks like there's enough to do for a long time, whether you want to spend your time doing Class storylines or other activities.
- an altoholic's dream: due to the fully unique Class Quests, the large Planets inviting exploration and the large amount of other content, leveling an alt in SW:TOR will be the freshest, most enjoyable experience compared to other MMORPG's.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Um, actually GW2 has been extremely detailed on their content and features, lol. So ya kind of tipped your hand that your post is biased. Nice shiny colors though.
give me a mass effect quality with some online features and I will be a happy bunny.
You may have noticed that I post fairly regularly in the GW2 forum here, that is, if you actually paid attention to these forums (sticky post is mine).
And you may have noticed that I also am quite enthusiastic about GW2 in my posts, you might even have noticed that I posted a number of times that I have GW2 on top of my wish list, above a SWTOR. So yes, I am biased and have some nice shiny colors. In contrast to some people, my viewpoint and tastes aren't black & white, nor are they exclusive.
In contrast to some I am an actual MMORPG gamer, meaning not just a fan of 1 (existing or upcoming) game dissing all others: so yes, I plan to play a number of interesting MMORPG's that'll be released next year.
GL with your own shiny colored glasses, btw
For the 3 MMO's that I mentioned (of which you conveniently only mentioned one), those are the features that stand out most. So the point and question are both valid. I could name some other features just like I did for SW:TOR, but that's not really the point. For those having trouble following: double standards being used is the point that it's about.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I think it is better to play it safe. If I were developing an expensive AAA MMO, I would probably handle the release of new information the same way. While Friday updates have not been very revealing, there is a lot of material out from various conferenses. There is tons of gameplay videos along with sites like Darth Hater that disects them.
Still fresh in my memory is the development of SWG. It was a game where developers weren't tight lipped, but promised moon and starts to go with it. There was a post back then, in the beta forum, where a tester had collected all the features that were promised to be implemented in the launch. This amounted to roughly 30%. Significant features were completely missing and some had not been implemented 2 years after the launch.
I plan on playing GW2, but while they have given descriptions of game mechanics, they have not actually been shown in great details. Some things can look great on a paper, but the system, once developed, might not be as good. This is true for many sandbox attempts where features simply do not translate to a fun gameplay (except for minority or masochists). I could raise many questions about GW2 as well, but like with SW:TOR, I follow both games with mild optimism. Neither of these games will "fail" due to a single mechanic, but if the gameplay is not engaging and fun it can happen. I am sure that both SW:TOR and GW2 will do relatively well, but those claiming that GW2 somehow has an upper hand with released information aren't seeing the whole picture imo.
Another thing that many fail to consider is that today we have so many games coming out a year, which has resulted that people are no longer so loyal to a single brand (some are yes, it can be about personality or social aspects etc). But having choice generally means that people can hop from a game to a game, so it will become increasingly difficult for a developer to hook gamers for a single game for years. I do not think they even should. Few months in one game and then back once new content is available will probably become a norm. We already have guilds/clans that span accross different games. Also, I see no reason why I should be exclusive for WOW, SW:TOR; GW2, Tera or Rift. If all have something different to offer, isn't that great?
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
But why on earth are you so ready to believe this when so little information has been released on core gameplay. Most games this big would be deep into a closed beta right (See WOW back in 2004, or WAR back in 2007/8) now with thousands of testers involved if they were really going live in less than 6 months, yet this title hasn't even revealed some of its core gameplay elements.
Do you really think they need to keep everything this secrert? Or maybe, just maybe, they really don't have that much to show outside of the demo's they've given.
I'm all for optimism, but when it comes to MMORPG's and release dates, early releases are just not the way to bet.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Part of the problem is, we, as gamer's, demand too much, too soon.
You might disagree with that, but its the truth.
I remember way back when I first started playing MMO's, if you wanted to complete a quest, you had to read the quest text, then follow the (sometimes) vague instructions, and directions the quest text held to get the job done.
You had to actually explore the game world, and find quest hubs, or area's to grind in.
Now, people dont care about reading quest text, or exploring, they just want some form of quest helper to point the way to the quest objective, they dont want to explore and find things themselves, they want a website with spoilers, a map addon ( in some cases) or at least an interactive online map that shows where everything is.
Even before a game is actually live, people want to know all there is to know about it, so they can just blindly rush to *end game* content, and then complain there is nothing to do.
If you think about it, what is the point of even playing a game, if you want someone else to show you where to go, what to do, how to do it.
What happened to wanting to find it all out for yourself? Did surprises suddenly become the red headed stepchild that nobody wants?
For me, too much information is a bad thing, its one of the reason's I do not sign up for beta test's of games I am interested in anymore, as once you have been involved in the beta for a few month's, and done pretty much all there is to do while beta is taking place, the live game suffer's, and the experience is a bit of a let down.
So, do I care that there a lack of information about ToR, no, not at all.
I am still as interested in playing ToR as I was when it was first announced.
And I am looking forward to actually having to find things out about the game first hand, by actually playing it, instead of reading all about it on a website.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
Didn't I see a video from PAX a little while ago that stated the game is done, they are just adding polish? As fas as updates go, they do a update every Friday. The videos and bios they have showed all tie into the story and are pretty well done and give you hints as to what will be in the game.
In Bioware we trust!
Has my enthusiasm for the game waned? Absolutely not. BW has no chance of making everyone happy. However, I am happy with what I have seen so far and I am just sitting back and enjoying the ride until launch day. I applaud BW for taking on the challenge of creating a game for the Star Wars universe which encompasses a huge array of opinions and emotions. I have been hopeful for a SW world since the trashing of SWG and am hoping that BW enjoys a huge success with this project.
Cause most beta players stinks !!! sorry to say lets take patch 4.0 of wow for example , been in beta test for how long 3 months ? one day on live !!
We had more changes on the product then 3 months in beta , sorry to say it simply says having a beta is almost useless .
Early release of products , lets see how many product been dumped on us way way too early .
In the last past years i can give you enough names , lets take the mains for example Star Trek , Age of Conan , Aion half those games hit release too early , its just a crude beta game , with too many features not implemented and set in stone.
WoW classic release example , paladin mechanics changed from last day sof beta , into something totally new and crap .
But you know something is funny , i opt in for the beta after 4 years , and infact not a word or response from them .
Thats maybe good for a change , it seems they are taking the beta tester serious . and have only a very small group who reports bugs , no bug reports no beta , thats the way it should be , not want to work for free , GTFO .
Secrecy isn´t bad at all , but there is a point where even a average joe can say , look money talks BS walks .
EA is about money , not just talks , if bioware dare to confirm thats it set for spring 2011 , they beter deliver .
Yes maybe they learned a lesson , that people are willing to pay for a beta product , so why give free beta´s if most people want to pay for it , cash in the bank .
Well, I don't have any fears about this, because I don't think the community here in this forum is really representative for any ingame community. For good or bad, ingame communities are basically influenced by the ingame mechanics of the game. They are closely related.
Pre-CU SWG community was so good, because the mechanics enforced cooperation. It is that simple. It was the same, to a degree in the old days of EQ2. Most overland mobs were heroic, so people HAD to cooperate. Same with SWG in pre-CU. People needed doctor buffs and Entertainers to get rid of combat fatigue and crafter communities and player cities to host the crafters and give a cantina for the entertainers close to the hunting spots asf. All was connected, all was inter-dependent. THAT is why I praise the system of SWG so much. The good community is the result of a game design, where teamwork and cooperations is a necessity. That is why I fight so hard against this ideology of the amtomized players where no one ever really needs anyone. People will become social because of obstacles they can't overcome alone. Take these obstacles away and they devolve into the egomaniacs most humans naturally are.
Release this necessity from a game, make all people soloists and entirely independent from one another, and most will return to asshole-mode. Humans function like that. Read Machiavelli. *shrug*
Sidenote 1: I find Ozmodan's considerations plausible. I too don't expect we really see SWTOR before late 2011 or 2012 rather. No MMO ever held it's first release announcement, and with the high emotional tide they'd be well advise to reconsider some details.
Sidenote 2: As someone pointed out, Bioware indeed seems little responsive to any critique or request. Like a king they say how things to do be done, then end of debate, and then mostly staying in shrounded silence. Not a very welcoming behavior. I say it again: a company like Stardock who REALLY communicates with it's community I am way more willing to overlook faults than with this distant behavior. And what exactly makes you think they will react better and less haughty after launch? It is what I loathed Blizzard for, already. They have "their vision" and to hell with everyone who wants different. I just don't like that attitude one bit.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
A game this big has a Beta test fase of at least 6 to 8 months.
The game is still in demo mode.
Compared to other games, that would mean it is still more than 1 year off.
Doesn't anyone remember that the first extensive Wow demo's appeared 2 years before launch?
The moment it hits serious beta testing, you'll have to add this 6-8 months "delivery" timing (probably more).
So not before May 2011 and since they will not launch in spring or summer, there simply is no release before automn 2011.
Unless ... EA decides otherwise and then we' ll have a nice premature child (aka WAR) experience again.
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I too am convinced GW2 already passed the hype level of TOR. The SW game is in a dangerous negative glide for the moment.
It is as if SW:TOR is made by people who are simply "new" to MMO's.
It seems GW2 wants to address the bored MMO crowd, while EA/Bioware thinks there is still a WOW market besides WOW. And even if that would not be the case, they certainly project the wrong identity in their PR talk for their product (story).
A good point.
I think that that's what contributed majorly towards EQ's success in its tight knitted community feeling, dependencies and enforced grouping.
Although I don't think enforced grouping works anymore, a system of interdependencies like the doctor buffs and Entertainers and a good economy and crafter community can certainly help a lot when nourishing that community sense. I think if SWG would have had that polish that WoW had and lots more content and varied things to do for the quester/leveler, SWG would have fared a lot better, with no rigorous changes needed as an NGE.
But, that's in the past.
We'll see how things will go with SW:TOR.
"New" doesn't mean that much in the MMO industry. We've seen some epic fails from seasoned MMORPG companies in their 2nd or 3rd MMORPG, and we've seen some good successes with first-timers.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I like your post but its more simple then that. I believe that the AVERAGE MMO player is like the AVERAGE RPG (BOOK) player. The main motivation for MMO players has been, and continues to be, the NEXT LEVEL. After playing MMO's for so long, I have since given up on the race to the top, and am instead enjoying the journey. Guess I got tired with the GRIND of leveling.
Therefor I think SWTOR will be the game for me.
Being that I am a huge Star Wars fan, I was all fired up about this MMO. However, it is taking too long to come out and I have lost my hype. Also, seeing the fact that space combat is nothing but a rails shooter, that was a big let down. I will probably let everyone else "test the waters" before diving into this ocean. I have learned many things by playing MMO's. Never play the beta because it spoils the fun of playing the game when it gets released. Also, always start an mmo one year after launch. That gives them time to work out the bugs and there will be less lag because many players will not like the game and leave. Also, playing after a year will usually get you a great deal on the client software.
I hear a lot of that on many forums. I'm still looking forward to the game, but I'm trying others to kill time. It's hard to play other games though, knowing that if TOR is good, I won't be back. With little enough information on TOR, makes it hard to know whether I should even invest a lot of time in other games. Every once in a while I think, "screw TOR", I'll just keep playing this. At least I know what I like about it.
Yes, my enthusiasm has dropped. My expectations have dropped. I think it is because I have had too much time to think about how they can make an MMO with such a set story line. Not that stories aren't a fun part of some games. Maybe it will just be a Big single player game with some kind of possible social interaction or maybe ...... way lots of maybe's.
As a retired programmer and application designer, I can remember projects started with high hopes and exciting possibilities that in the end were flops or discontinued because they became too complex to actually build.
I mean it is gonna take quite some system to allow you to go anywhere and do anything and form groups to do exciting things and still follow an individual story line. I guess since my limited mind cannot see how it can be done I really don't expect it to be done. I am not saying I will not try it or that I am mad at Bioware for lack of communication or even that I am disappointed in all the QQing for more info on the forums .... maybe the MMO hype machine (like with Warhammer) is just the wrong way to market these games. I just feel a little uneasy about it all. However it is no biggie as it is just a game after all.
If Ya Ain't Dyin, Ya Ain't Tryin
An experienced TEAM and a great project manager(s), can easily reduce this. Yet Video games are a form of ART, and as such their is no Science behind the actual end game play/fun. There is a chance BIOWARE blows it, but if I had money... I would of invested in EA back in the late 2009's... The stock price was extremely low, and I am willing to bet on the success of BIOWARE.
Wahale99 I am not claiming your inept, but explaining that the reason for these failures are often due to lack of experience and lack of proper planning.
I would hope that I loose some of my excitement for the game. I always enjoy things more when I go into them with low expectations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edsel
"The aim was right, but the target moved"
Give me liberty or give me lasers
If Ya Ain't Dyin, Ya Ain't Tryin
Let them take another 3 years if that will result in a solid game. Just ignore the complains, no matter WHAT they do, people will complain:
- If they release too soon, people will complain.
- If they take too long, people will complain.
- If they communicate a lot, they will be accused of promising a pie in the sky.
- If they don't communicate much, they will be accused of ignoring the community.
Maybe Bioware have realized that it's best to let whiners whine while they do their job - at the end of the day, their games are high quality so they sell anyway. They seem to be doing that with the Mass Effect and Dragon Age series and it's working out quite fine if you ask me.
The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over.
Epic quote!
Well, even the most experienced programmers can err, losing track of what is going on. "Too sure of themselves they are, even the older, more experienced ones." to paraphrase Master Yoda.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
No, my interest in TOR has not decreased at all. The main reason is that I am a BW RPG fan first. No matter what happens with the MMO features in this game. I will have up to 1600 hours of BW RPG story to play through in an IP I grew up with. This will be enough to cover the price of the box plus a sub. If the MMO features are there as the dev's have said. Then I will have a game I can play for a long time.
These are games we are talking about, not a matter of life or death. The world will go on with or without a games release, success or failure. So I follow what I think I will like, give it a shot, then decide from there. If it sucks, I just move on. Is it such a big deal weather or not a game is what you want? You had nothing to do with the developement or investment in the company. It is just a video game. Buy a game or don't, your life will go on.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
Havent decreased, I'll now about the game when i play it, I don't need them to rush me with all the info there is.
Just like I prefere to not now anything about a movie, other than what's on the cover before I watch it.
People are acting like girls, let them do their job, you won't be playing it earlier even if they tell us everything.
And if GW2 are missing just 2% of the stuff they've told us about, people will go nuts on them for "lying"
And for people who are already considering not playing the game, if they don't open their mouth soon, seriously shut it and grow up, Bioware aint your mom, you don't see Ferrari telling the world about all the features of their new car a year before it comes out.
GW2 is using it as a marketing strategy, one that could very well backfire.