Given how many are actually playing FFXIV, I doubt anyone will take notice. 30,000 CCU is pretty damn good for most MMOs. It is only really the big budget titles that need more than that.
Given how many are actually playing FFXIV, I doubt anyone will take notice. 30,000 CCU is pretty damn good for most MMOs. It is only really the big budget titles that need more than that.
FFXIV was a big budget title when you compare it to F2P's, WoW, AoC, etc. I'd say the only thing that makes it not stand out so much is SWTOR, or spending a few minutes in the game and seeing for yourself why it didn't have a big budget.
So what mmo's released in a polished unbuggy condition?
They never have, it's not the games that have changed, it's the players expectations (and the devs of sub numbers) they no longer release small and grow, they seem to have start with massive world will bells and whistles galore. While there is nothing wrong with elevating expectations you have to ensure they're realistic afterall you may just get what you wished for
----- The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
So what mmo's released in a polished unbuggy condition?
They never have, it's not the games that have changed, it's the players expectations (and the devs of sub numbers) they no longer release small and grow, they seem to have start with massive world will bells and whistles galore. While there is nothing wrong with elevating expectations you have to ensure they're realistic afterall you may just get what you wished for
There are certain degrees of developer laziness, mediocrity, game-play emptiness and clumsiness, as well as overall feel of incompleteness.
You ask a good question....not one product, let alone a game is completely bug free and sparkly upon release. And again, as the market expands for any class of product, consumer expectations based on experience also expands. For example, ever since since EQ, Ashersons Call, etc., consumers have expected progressive bar-rises in the lack of the afformentioned and polish on basics.
So for those that feel that they should expect a progressively better level of quality with a product in a similar class that is launched a decade later, is completely warranted. As a result, the market has ruled, and Square Enix has seen its first half net income drop and sales flounder from their expectations.
So many many potential potential consumers are, have and will continue to call bs on the base-less excuses of old; the game hasn't launched yet, it's only beta, it's only open beta, every game releases unpolished, it only just launched, there is a patch coming, etc.
Then there's Cryptic and their release of the abysmal failure known as STO?
If those weren't messages, along with other mediocre mmo releases, I really dont know what it'll take. In any event, Im placing hope in Tera, Rift, Bioware and ANET. As for the other devs that have already failed or failed to succeed nearly as well as they should have, I hope none of them show up on the team of any other future mmo's that I'm interested in.
AoC may have had a bad launch, But it's made up for it since.
Or did minecraft tell developers they can release alpha stage, one man, zero budget games and rake in the cash...
Anyways, there are so many examples on both sides(success and fail) that half finished and buggy really isn't what keeps people from playing, buying, or staying.
That's true.
If anything, I agree that if people can see real potential they'll stay.
I mean the graphics > gameplay kids are sticking their toes in the sand with FFXIV. Hope it pays off for them in the end really. I guess I was wanting more Final Fantasy in the game than they wanted to put in to it, but that's the pisser with being a fan sometimes.
These type of failures due to incomplete or buggy games are usually due to setting a release date and forced to stick with it. In SE case they are both the developer and publisher so I can only assume it was a funding issue on why they forced an incomplete game out.
But putting SE and how they are structures as a developer and publisher aside. I think allot of the blame can go onto the publishers of the game if they are a separate entity from the developer.
A prime example is what happened with Trokia and there game Temple of Elemental Evil. Trokia's publisher was Atari therefore the company who funded the project. Atari gave them X amount of money to produce the game, however the funds for the game were drying up. Trokia asked for more funds and was given very little if any. Atari forced them to make the release date resulting in a very buggy game. Shortly after release Atari took over Trokia and laid most if not all of them off.
Another good example is Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. SOE forced the release by a certain date resulting in an incomplete game. By the time all the patches and complete content went in, they lost allot of there community. Even though Vangard is still out there, they have not had close to the fan base they once did thanks to the unfinished product at release.
To say its the developers fault in most cases, I think I would argue that point a bit. Not to say some blame cant be put on the developers, but I would say the bulk of it can be put on the publishers. After all its not the publisher building and testing the code in game, so one would think a publisher would listen more to the developers to make sure they get it right without the potential of failure at release.
Let's see how they do when they start charging monthly fee. As far as i know FF is still free to play until the 25th of Nov. Personally i havent touched the game in over a month, in fact completly de-installed it. I would not go back unless i hear good, very good things about it.
SE has lost a greta deal of cash and they deserve it for releasing a half finished turd.
Guess they couldn't just put the final fantasy name on a crap game and get a million subs...
Do you think SEs failure will have other development houses take notice?
maybe they will think twice about releasing trash?
I think FFXIV is the best thing to happen to this genre, maybe just maybe the quality level will rise.
"Hey guys! We have to release this game as is!!!!'
"Dont worry our hype will generate sales!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
"Wait hold the phone!!!!!! Do you really wanna "FFXIV" it?
"OMG your right!!!! Lets push it back six months!"
Did developers wake up when AOC or WAR were released? No.
Did developers wake up when Darkfall or mortal online were released? No.
Did developers wake up when hellgate london, Tabula Rasa, APB... or the host of other horrific game failures that have been released since 2004? No.
IMO the people who are creating games are simply out of touch with folks playing games. Untill a gamer and a creator get on the same page we are going to continue to get crap releases.
AoC was alright imo, just lacked mid/late game content like was in the beginning. WAR's problem was it just had fail mechanics of RvR and everything else.
Darkfall and Mortal are indie company games. They had to release because they ran out of money.
Tabula Rasa was a good game. I hear a lot of people miss it. I still dont really understand what happened with APB. From all the accounts I heard it was a decent game, just a little sluggish for a fps.
I think the problem most people have with games is that they are expecting WoW (now after all the expansions and years of polish/content) quality at release. If anyone remembers WoW was one of the worst releases I have ever been a part of. They kept giving us free time because of how absolutely terrible it was.
Another good example is Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. SOE forced the release by a certain date resulting in an incomplete game. By the time all the patches and complete content went in, they lost allot of there community. Even though Vangard is still out there, they have not had close to the fan base they once did thanks to the unfinished product at release.
At the time of release SOE were co-publishers for the game, they didn't purchase Sigil until 4 months after the game released.
----- The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
They haven't learned from other debacles so doubt this one will phase them.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Another good example is Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. SOE forced the release by a certain date resulting in an incomplete game. By the time all the patches and complete content went in, they lost allot of there community. Even though Vangard is still out there, they have not had close to the fan base they once did thanks to the unfinished product at release.
At the time of release SOE were co-publishers for the game, they didn't purchase Sigil until 4 months after the game released.
Ah. I forgot about Sigil. You are right there. But I do know, even after the complaints from the beta testers, I was one of them, there was a time constraint issue and they had to get it out the door.
pretty much every AAA mmo released after WoW have put out half finished buggy mmos. Unfortunately for SE I think a lot of us are finished buying into the hype.
My list of shitty mmo releases that I regret buying at the start ---> Vanguard, EQ2, AoC, WAR, Aion. After Aion I said fuck it and haven't gotten into an mmo since, mind you I started playing WoW again after over a year off so i guess that "need" isn't there anymore.
From my knowledge, there are mostly 2 major MMO studios out there that do know what they are doing.
The first one is the ineluctable Blizzard, and the second one, very tiny compared to the giant is ... Turbine.
if you got turbine on your list then there should be ncsoft and ccp for sure.
Right at least for ccp, not that sure for ncsoft though. It's above most others but I would not place it at the top.
I would say all of the companies mentioned know what they're about (i.e. Blizzard, CCP, Turbine, and NCsoft). They're all chugging along fairly well and they all have good, finished, polished products out that are going strong (although with Blizzard that's a bit of an understatement).
pretty much every AAA mmo released after WoW have put out half finished buggy mmos. Unfortunately for SE I think a lot of us are finished buying into the hype.
My list of shitty mmo releases that I regret buying at the start ---> Vanguard, EQ2, AoC, WAR, Aion. After Aion I said fuck it and haven't gotten into an mmo since, mind you I started playing WoW again after over a year off so i guess that "need" isn't there anymore.
Your list looks very similiar to mine, except remove EQ2 and add CO, STO, and FFXIV.
I really regret buying FFXIV after STO now. I should have waited until I was positive there was something else worth playing. But, yeah, I have to say my desire to play MMOs is starting to go away too. There's just been way to many let downs.
I'm waiting for DCUO, but if that turns out to be a flop. I might just end up sticking with console or single player PC games.
FF14 needed to be released early as the competition on the market would have been suicide in 2011. Therefore the business guys followed what they have learned in university: if you have a bad quality product, put it out earlier than the competiton, and grab the impatient ones. Don't believe me? But, hell, this is really taught to them.
We will keep seeing bad mmo's released early, and good mmo's when they are ready.
Anyway, telling that all these bad launches have been failures is true from the players perspective, but not from the investor side (excluding apb and ff14). All these bad releases at least sold enough boxes to pay back the development costs. There are very few big developers going bankrupt... while smller ones regularily do.
So what have devs learned from that? Bet big! Not finished games win the jackpot, but big games! If you are big and polished too, you got your cash cow. This is where you are aiming, but being big is enough to make your investors happy.
So I assume we will see a lot of big games in the future, and a lot of free-to-play crap from asian indy devs :-)
IMO the people who are creating games are simply out of touch with folks playing games. Untill a gamer and a creator get on the same page we are going to continue to get crap releases.
I think pretty much every MMO developer is an MMO player. It's like saying "people who are posting on MMORPG are simply out of touch with folks playing games."
Whoa! Sounds fun! When is it coming out? I bet it will be completely unique, a game changer, a WoW killer, capitalizing on "dynamic" events and "revolutionary" game mechanics.
Sadly, I do not think the industry has gotten the message. But I also feel WE hold the majority of the blame for that, just as we do for the rampant growth of DLC and Cash Shops. WE fuel these failures. WE fuel these trends. Until WE stop buying utter **edit**, WE are to blame.
Comments
Given how many are actually playing FFXIV, I doubt anyone will take notice. 30,000 CCU is pretty damn good for most MMOs. It is only really the big budget titles that need more than that.
FFXIV was a big budget title when you compare it to F2P's, WoW, AoC, etc. I'd say the only thing that makes it not stand out so much is SWTOR, or spending a few minutes in the game and seeing for yourself why it didn't have a big budget.
He who keeps his cool best wins.
So what mmo's released in a polished unbuggy condition?
They never have, it's not the games that have changed, it's the players expectations (and the devs of sub numbers) they no longer release small and grow, they seem to have start with massive world will bells and whistles galore. While there is nothing wrong with elevating expectations you have to ensure they're realistic afterall you may just get what you wished for
-----
The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
There are certain degrees of developer laziness, mediocrity, game-play emptiness and clumsiness, as well as overall feel of incompleteness.
You ask a good question....not one product, let alone a game is completely bug free and sparkly upon release. And again, as the market expands for any class of product, consumer expectations based on experience also expands. For example, ever since since EQ, Ashersons Call, etc., consumers have expected progressive bar-rises in the lack of the afformentioned and polish on basics.
So for those that feel that they should expect a progressively better level of quality with a product in a similar class that is launched a decade later, is completely warranted. As a result, the market has ruled, and Square Enix has seen its first half net income drop and sales flounder from their expectations.
So many many potential potential consumers are, have and will continue to call bs on the base-less excuses of old; the game hasn't launched yet, it's only beta, it's only open beta, every game releases unpolished, it only just launched, there is a patch coming, etc.
AoC may have had a bad launch, But it's made up for it since.
This, there is simply ZERO evidence that this market will actually punish failures sufficiently to make the companies involved change their behavior.
That's true.
If anything, I agree that if people can see real potential they'll stay.
I mean the graphics > gameplay kids are sticking their toes in the sand with FFXIV. Hope it pays off for them in the end really. I guess I was wanting more Final Fantasy in the game than they wanted to put in to it, but that's the pisser with being a fan sometimes.
What ericbelser said.
These type of failures due to incomplete or buggy games are usually due to setting a release date and forced to stick with it. In SE case they are both the developer and publisher so I can only assume it was a funding issue on why they forced an incomplete game out.
But putting SE and how they are structures as a developer and publisher aside. I think allot of the blame can go onto the publishers of the game if they are a separate entity from the developer.
A prime example is what happened with Trokia and there game Temple of Elemental Evil. Trokia's publisher was Atari therefore the company who funded the project. Atari gave them X amount of money to produce the game, however the funds for the game were drying up. Trokia asked for more funds and was given very little if any. Atari forced them to make the release date resulting in a very buggy game. Shortly after release Atari took over Trokia and laid most if not all of them off.
Another good example is Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. SOE forced the release by a certain date resulting in an incomplete game. By the time all the patches and complete content went in, they lost allot of there community. Even though Vangard is still out there, they have not had close to the fan base they once did thanks to the unfinished product at release.
To say its the developers fault in most cases, I think I would argue that point a bit. Not to say some blame cant be put on the developers, but I would say the bulk of it can be put on the publishers. After all its not the publisher building and testing the code in game, so one would think a publisher would listen more to the developers to make sure they get it right without the potential of failure at release.
Let's see how they do when they start charging monthly fee. As far as i know FF is still free to play until the 25th of Nov. Personally i havent touched the game in over a month, in fact completly de-installed it. I would not go back unless i hear good, very good things about it.
AoC was alright imo, just lacked mid/late game content like was in the beginning. WAR's problem was it just had fail mechanics of RvR and everything else.
Darkfall and Mortal are indie company games. They had to release because they ran out of money.
Tabula Rasa was a good game. I hear a lot of people miss it. I still dont really understand what happened with APB. From all the accounts I heard it was a decent game, just a little sluggish for a fps.
I think the problem most people have with games is that they are expecting WoW (now after all the expansions and years of polish/content) quality at release. If anyone remembers WoW was one of the worst releases I have ever been a part of. They kept giving us free time because of how absolutely terrible it was.
At the time of release SOE were co-publishers for the game, they didn't purchase Sigil until 4 months after the game released.
-----
The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
Doubt it.
They haven't learned from other debacles so doubt this one will phase them.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Ah. I forgot about Sigil. You are right there. But I do know, even after the complaints from the beta testers, I was one of them, there was a time constraint issue and they had to get it out the door.
From my knowledge, there are mostly 2 major MMO studios out there that do know what they are doing.
The first one is the ineluctable Blizzard, and the second one, very tiny compared to the giant is ... Turbine.
if you got turbine on your list then there should be ncsoft and ccp for sure.
Right at least for ccp, not that sure for ncsoft though. It's above most others but I would not place it at the top.
NCsoft is doing quite well. Especially with City of Heroes/Villians in it's pocket.
However, it's yet to have real competition in that genre.
pretty much every AAA mmo released after WoW have put out half finished buggy mmos. Unfortunately for SE I think a lot of us are finished buying into the hype.
My list of shitty mmo releases that I regret buying at the start ---> Vanguard, EQ2, AoC, WAR, Aion. After Aion I said fuck it and haven't gotten into an mmo since, mind you I started playing WoW again after over a year off so i guess that "need" isn't there anymore.
I would say all of the companies mentioned know what they're about (i.e. Blizzard, CCP, Turbine, and NCsoft). They're all chugging along fairly well and they all have good, finished, polished products out that are going strong (although with Blizzard that's a bit of an understatement).
Your list looks very similiar to mine, except remove EQ2 and add CO, STO, and FFXIV.
I really regret buying FFXIV after STO now. I should have waited until I was positive there was something else worth playing. But, yeah, I have to say my desire to play MMOs is starting to go away too. There's just been way to many let downs.
I'm waiting for DCUO, but if that turns out to be a flop. I might just end up sticking with console or single player PC games.
FF14 needed to be released early as the competition on the market would have been suicide in 2011. Therefore the business guys followed what they have learned in university: if you have a bad quality product, put it out earlier than the competiton, and grab the impatient ones. Don't believe me? But, hell, this is really taught to them.
We will keep seeing bad mmo's released early, and good mmo's when they are ready.
Anyway, telling that all these bad launches have been failures is true from the players perspective, but not from the investor side (excluding apb and ff14). All these bad releases at least sold enough boxes to pay back the development costs. There are very few big developers going bankrupt... while smller ones regularily do.
So what have devs learned from that? Bet big! Not finished games win the jackpot, but big games! If you are big and polished too, you got your cash cow. This is where you are aiming, but being big is enough to make your investors happy.
So I assume we will see a lot of big games in the future, and a lot of free-to-play crap from asian indy devs :-)
Currently playing: EverQuest
Waiting for Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen
I think pretty much every MMO developer is an MMO player. It's like saying "people who are posting on MMORPG are simply out of touch with folks playing games."
Whoa! Sounds fun! When is it coming out? I bet it will be completely unique, a game changer, a WoW killer, capitalizing on "dynamic" events and "revolutionary" game mechanics.
Sadly, I do not think the industry has gotten the message. But I also feel WE hold the majority of the blame for that, just as we do for the rampant growth of DLC and Cash Shops. WE fuel these failures. WE fuel these trends. Until WE stop buying utter **edit**, WE are to blame.