I hope that the rift community is not so immature as some of you are claiming.
Until a few weeks ago I would have said much to the contrary. Seems as the fan base increases we are getting more and more pointless posts both here and on the main site.
It is becoming very much like the general discussion forums on wow's main site.
It's not because you disagree or because you don't care that a balance thread is pointless or 'turning a game into WOW'. I've seen balance thread is about every games (RPG, RTS, FPS, heck even in Civilization...) single player or not.
I hope that the rift community is not so immature as some of you are claiming.
Until a few weeks ago I would have said much to the contrary. Seems as the fan base increases we are getting more and more pointless posts both here and on the main site.
It is becoming very much like the general discussion forums on wow's main site.
It's not because you disagree or because you don't care that a balance thread is pointless or 'turning a game into WOW'. I've seen balance thread is about every games (RPG, RTS, FPS, heck even in Civilization...) single player or not.
If they aren't supporting any addons or if they don't allow any form of parsing in game then this thread is indeed pointless.
My comment wasn't really aimed at this thread though, more towards the notable degeneration of the quality of posting on the main rift site.
I doubt the pve aspect of this game can be balanced, just too many options.
In PvE: If there is one uber build that makes all other builds useless it is crying for the nerfing bat, for sure. The devs of DDO must be silly to allow that. Holy Trinity ftw!
In PvP: At least in Rift there will never be an all rocking build - because you can easily create a build that defeats the uber build. And then a new build is created to defeat the uberbuild-defeater. And so on.
Actually there is no need for class balance as long as the classes are distinct and each one is wothwhile.
I don't expect it to be like that. It all screams fotm. Eventually the build that defeats everyone and everything will be discovered or at the very least it will be the best overall and in the end "play what you like" will hardly be a possibility. Balance will be achieved very hardly in this game, I just hope the devs will reach a point where playing your very own build will not make you automatically a loser.
I agree with Rynne. Also I'd like to comment on the highlighted text:
Balance doesn't end with counter-builds. There will never be a cycle like that. What happens is that someone goes to huge lenghts to develop a counter-build which is then only good for beating the overpowered one. The need to do so is a sure sign the game is unbalanced.
I had a friend who told me about balance in Magic the Gathering years back. He told me some cards were banned because after a while they were published, two decks (builds) would emerge: the overpowered one and its counter. Anything else falls in between and surely beats the counter deck but loses to the overpowered one. This is not balance. It absolutely kills build variation. Hence the ban.
That is why I appreciate good balance and the effort to maintain it.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
We need to get away from this equality mentality where everyone needs to be equal and instead balance the game around the need for a group instead of indivduals.
imo in a pve game every class should kick ass and be fun to play.
People need to stop worrying about who is going to be more important within specific roles.
I never understood it, crying over one class tanking better or healing better...
Who cares??? if you get yourself into a nice guild they arent going to boot you for another guy because your class doesnt tank, heal or CC as well lol.
If they do wtf did you join them for?
It depends how obvious one class is overpowered. If one class does 20%+ more DPS than any other, or if group setup is able to steamroll content without much drawbacks, you're more likely to find a group if you rolled a FOTM.
Don't get me wrong, I agree that a lot of players are crying even if the difference is between 1 or 2%, or if 1 boss somewhere doesn't offer the perfect DPS conditions. But class balance is a valid concern in PVE.
As an example, I was a mage in WoW during BC, and we raided with 4-5 warlocks. And we were actively recruiting more warlocks. But we were full on mages (which consisted of me + 1 part time player). Warlocks + 1 shadow priest = golden, and the difference was between 10% and 20% more DPS, on top of better survivability. If someone rolled a mage during BC, he had a much smaller chance of getting picked for a raid than a warlock.
On the other side, some group instances in BC required heavy CCs. Hunters and mages were very good at CC'ing, especially in Magisters Terrace. In fact at some point, there was a shortage of good CCs, and those 2 classes were as hard to find as tanks and healers. I've been in pugs where the leader actively booted any non-CC class should he find one during our run. Sucks to be them.
I would suggest meeting like minded players and grouping with them. Run less pugs with elitist min maxer asshats.
You wont even care about pve balance then. Any guild that stacked up on one class for an advantage in WoW clearly lacked skill.
I would suggest meeting like minded players and grouping with them. Run less pugs with elitist min maxer asshats.
You wont even care about pve balance then. Any guild that stacked up on one class for an advantage in WoW clearly lacked skill.
Um well sure, obviously. But that doesn't make balance issues go away.
It's not really a question of skills, but of over-rationalization. When 25 players are running on a treadmill, they naturally tend to find ways to run faster by picking up the most efficient classes. This tendency is proportional to the efficiency, whereas the more one class brings more utility/DPS than another, the more they are going to get picked. This combined with the guild level of elitist min maxer asshatry.
From experience, class stacking doesn't really happen by benching friends playing a gimp class, but by recruiting FOTM when a guild needs to fill their empty raid spots.
It's not really a question of skills, but of over-rationalization. When 25 players are running on a treadmill, they naturally tend to find ways to run faster by picking up the most efficient classes. This tendency is proportional to the efficiency, whereas the more one class brings more utility/DPS than another, the more they are going to get picked. This combined with the guild level of elitist min maxer asshatry.
From experience, class stacking doesn't really happen by benching friends playing a gimp class, but by recruiting FOTM when a guild needs to fill their empty raid spots.
None of which is an issue in RIFT. If your "gimp" friends run a useless spec outside of raids, they can easily switch to the required spec for the raid. You can quite literally switch specs between every fight.
Unlike other games where you're locked in and your class or spec choice locks limits you, in Rift, choosing your spec for the fight is part of the game and the fun. I honestly think the best players in Rift won't be the guys with an uber "one beats all" spec but rather the guys that know the fights and all the skills of their calling and switch specs to compensate for what's going on in every fight. The guys with the "ultimate" cookie-cutter spec, will always lose out to them.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
None of which is an issue in RIFT. If your "gimp" friends run a useless spec outside of raids, they can easily switch to the required spec for the raid. You can quite literally switch specs between every fight.
Unlike other games where you're locked in and your class or spec choice locks limits you, in Rift, choosing your spec for the fight is part of the game and the fun. I honestly think the best players in Rift won't be the guys with an uber "one beats all" spec but rather the guys that know the fights and all the skills of their calling and switch specs to compensate for what's going on in every fight. The guys with the "ultimate" cookie-cutter spec, will always lose out to them.
Yes, I agree with you for this part. My statement was about balance issue in general, as most game wont allow to switch spec on the go. I think Rift is going to be a lot more about your own combat strategy defined by the spec you choose before heading to a battle than simply which class you are.
None of which is an issue in RIFT. If your "gimp" friends run a useless spec outside of raids, they can easily switch to the required spec for the raid. You can quite literally switch specs between every fight.
I'm having a second thought on this, in the way that class balance can be an issue. For example, if the Cleric calling can fulfill all 4 archetype roles with its souls, and be better than any other calling for each role, then you have a game with clerics all over the place. But let's put our faith in Trion shall we? :-)
None of which is an issue in RIFT. If your "gimp" friends run a useless spec outside of raids, they can easily switch to the required spec for the raid. You can quite literally switch specs between every fight.
I'm having a second thought on this, in the way that class balance can be an issue. For example, if the Cleric calling can fulfill all 4 archetype roles with its souls, and be better than any other calling for each role, then you have a game with clerics all over the place. But let's put our faith in Trion shall we? :-)
Right, this is why it's really only about balancing the 4 callings (giving them something to do) not about balancing hundreds of possible class combos. And yeah, anything can happen, but i'm giving Trion enough credit to know that the all-tanking, all-healing, all-dpsing, all-singing single calling would be detrimental to the game.
They mention that while some mages will get heals and some scouts will have tank-ish abilities, but the way that sounded just meant they'll be more versatile, not that they'll be able to totally replace the callings that specialize in these things.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
Comments
It's not because you disagree or because you don't care that a balance thread is pointless or 'turning a game into WOW'. I've seen balance thread is about every games (RPG, RTS, FPS, heck even in Civilization...) single player or not.
If they aren't supporting any addons or if they don't allow any form of parsing in game then this thread is indeed pointless.
My comment wasn't really aimed at this thread though, more towards the notable degeneration of the quality of posting on the main rift site.
I doubt the pve aspect of this game can be balanced, just too many options.
I agree with Rynne. Also I'd like to comment on the highlighted text:
Balance doesn't end with counter-builds. There will never be a cycle like that. What happens is that someone goes to huge lenghts to develop a counter-build which is then only good for beating the overpowered one. The need to do so is a sure sign the game is unbalanced.
I had a friend who told me about balance in Magic the Gathering years back. He told me some cards were banned because after a while they were published, two decks (builds) would emerge: the overpowered one and its counter. Anything else falls in between and surely beats the counter deck but loses to the overpowered one. This is not balance. It absolutely kills build variation. Hence the ban.
That is why I appreciate good balance and the effort to maintain it.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Well, you should not forget, that in rift you may change your whole build within seconds ;-)
Currently playing: EverQuest
Waiting for Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen
Fixing the symptoms, not the disease.
But hey! Who am I to jinx it? Maybe they will get it right the first time (yeah right). -My expectations remain low.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I think that in theory the more options there are the less likely that there is a clear unequivocal best build.
We need to get away from this equality mentality where everyone needs to be equal and instead balance the game around the need for a group instead of indivduals.
I would suggest meeting like minded players and grouping with them. Run less pugs with elitist min maxer asshats.
You wont even care about pve balance then. Any guild that stacked up on one class for an advantage in WoW clearly lacked skill.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Um well sure, obviously. But that doesn't make balance issues go away.
It's not really a question of skills, but of over-rationalization. When 25 players are running on a treadmill, they naturally tend to find ways to run faster by picking up the most efficient classes. This tendency is proportional to the efficiency, whereas the more one class brings more utility/DPS than another, the more they are going to get picked. This combined with the guild level of elitist min maxer asshatry.
From experience, class stacking doesn't really happen by benching friends playing a gimp class, but by recruiting FOTM when a guild needs to fill their empty raid spots.
None of which is an issue in RIFT. If your "gimp" friends run a useless spec outside of raids, they can easily switch to the required spec for the raid. You can quite literally switch specs between every fight.
Unlike other games where you're locked in and your class or spec choice locks limits you, in Rift, choosing your spec for the fight is part of the game and the fun. I honestly think the best players in Rift won't be the guys with an uber "one beats all" spec but rather the guys that know the fights and all the skills of their calling and switch specs to compensate for what's going on in every fight. The guys with the "ultimate" cookie-cutter spec, will always lose out to them.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
Yes, I agree with you for this part. My statement was about balance issue in general, as most game wont allow to switch spec on the go. I think Rift is going to be a lot more about your own combat strategy defined by the spec you choose before heading to a battle than simply which class you are.
I'm having a second thought on this, in the way that class balance can be an issue. For example, if the Cleric calling can fulfill all 4 archetype roles with its souls, and be better than any other calling for each role, then you have a game with clerics all over the place. But let's put our faith in Trion shall we? :-)
Right, this is why it's really only about balancing the 4 callings (giving them something to do) not about balancing hundreds of possible class combos. And yeah, anything can happen, but i'm giving Trion enough credit to know that the all-tanking, all-healing, all-dpsing, all-singing single calling would be detrimental to the game.
They mention that while some mages will get heals and some scouts will have tank-ish abilities, but the way that sounded just meant they'll be more versatile, not that they'll be able to totally replace the callings that specialize in these things.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO